Morhek's page

As far as I know, one of the big things about Zon-Kuthon that sets him apart from the average fiend is that, while he and his followers can and will inflict unimaginable torments, he requires them to be entirely consensual. Inflicting it on the unwilling is meaningless pain, irrelevant - a useful tool to achieve a goal perhaps, but of no true significance. The sights he has to show you must be willingly and wholeheartedly embraced for it to truly mean anything. Requiring consent speaks to having at least some code of conduct, which reads as enough to categorise him as Lawful.

Why Ptolemaic? I would've assumed that's the era that's missing the most, since there's no parallel to Hellenistic conquest in Osirion's lore, but you seem more well-versed in Egyptian history than I am.

I say Ptolemaic because of the parallels of a newly-independent dynasty of Pharaohs focussed on modernising along international lines. You also have the fusion of old culture and new, and an economic and military renaissance - the Ptolemaic Period until shortly before the Roman conquest was a decent time for Egypt after being carved off from the Persian empire, even if it was dominated by a new Greek or at least a Hellenised elite class. Khemet I and the Forthbringer restoration aren't really equivalent to the Greeks, but the dynamism of the time feels like it is.

Osirion is kinda a hybrid between the Ptolemaic and Mamluk periods of Egyptian history, and has plenty of pyramids and tomb complexes you can set a story in. As has been mentioned, Mummy's Mask is an entire six-book adventure set in Osirion, though you don't get to your first real pyramid until well into the adventure.

10.) A Nethysian plan (a plan so crazy it just might work).

11.) Joining the Iblydan legions (a euphemism for homosexuality).

12.) In a Prismatic Way (a euphemism for polyamory, referring to the Prismatic Ray).

13.) One of Cayden's carousers (a euphemism for bisexuality).

14.) A face only Lamashtu could love (ugliness).

15.) A party to put Urgathoa to shame (an orgy/bender).

Did you mean to say that Cheliax was never a factor in Avistani geopolitics, as far as the published setting went? I don't think you did.

Yes, actually. At least since I've been playing, which is about ten years or so now, the Chelaxian state has never felt like it was truly a threat. It has always been on the backfoot. When the Inner Sea begins as a setting, Cheliax has already been declining for a long time in-universe, and it never felt like it arrested that slide. Which is why I really hope Paizo use this opportunity to do so.

This is just vibes, but Cheliax doesn't feel as "pushed" a villain as Tar-Baphon, if that makes sense? Like the setting could afford to lose it and keep chugging along without something else taking its narrative place.

I believe the wrestling term is "over." Tar-Baphon is over at the moment, and has a very recent, very public and very status quo-affecting win under his belt, even if he didn't get the Starstone - destroying Lastwall and overrunning the Eye of Terror with undead hordes that forced some of its neighbours to ally against him. He feels powerful, a distant but omnipresent threat who demands to be taken seriously, and must be calculated into any geopolitical decision in Avistan. The same can't be said of Cheliax since it lost Sargava, even though it was meant to be an ideal Setting Bad Guy for the Inner Sea. But that could change, if Paizo puts Cheliax over.

The Whispered Tyrant is a very good example if we're thinking about a war that sets Cheliax up for a bit of a revival, since it shows how even the good guys technically "winning" can still set the villain up to be in a far more powerful position. There are plenty of good stories to tell where the "good guys," ie; Andoran and the Pathfinder Society, can "win" in their specific missions, while Cheliax still accomplishes almost all of its other goals. What could be Cheliax's clean conquest and dominance in Andoran could be turned into a messy occupation that still gives Andoran and the Pathfinders the chance for a long guerilla resistance and covert espionage operations, which sound like great plot bunnies to base Pathfinder Scenarios on. Go full French Resistance on Cheliax.

But in the meantime, having restored its international image Cheliax will still be exultant and powerful, in a position to dictate matters to its neighbours, and able to finally throw its weight around for a bit.

then there is the Aspis thing.

There's another reason to give Cheliax a win: setting up the Aspis Society, whose headquarters are based in it, as a bigger threat as a rival group to the Pathfinders. Which Cheliax's star on the rise, they would likely benefit from either official patronage or the removal of competition, and you could use the unofficial covert war between the Pathfinders and Aspis Agents as a proxy for the bigger conflict.

Morhek, an Andoran resistance feels...right somehow, like it gives Cheliax cred, and revives a similar feel to the Bellflowers. Definitely makes the region more dynamic, and with the Whispering Tyrant pressing in the North, it's up to heroes to rise up more than crusades.

You could even make the Andoran resistance a coalition of the old Bellflower Network, the Eagle Knights, and the Firebrands, plus a few others, coming together in an uneasy alliance against a common enemy. As Andor shows, there's a lot of appetite for stories about ragtag groups coming together to fight an evil empire, and the kind of internecine jockeying for power and influence, even in the name of a greater good, that can create storytelling fodder.

Which all assumes Cheliax actually wins. I'm of the opinion that you don't make a potentially status quo shaking move unless you're actually willing to shake up the status quo, but then I'm the guy who thought they should have run the Vidrian revolution or the abolition of slavery across the Inner Sea as published events that players could affect, not off-screen changes. It's possible the adventure ends with an open-ended stalemate.

I don't know if I count Hell's Vengeance as a W, more like not taking as bad an L for once. A clear, unambiguous W is long overdue I think.

And as someone who hasn't been particularly interested in Andoran, a Chelaxian occupation of Andoran might get my attention. Especially if it brings Cheliax's functional borders right up against Taldor's, and sets up a protracted Cold War before the even bigger conflict that I've often thought would be perfect, with Cheliax as a fading great power trying to revive its fortunes, while Taldor's star is on the ascent but still fragile as it recovers from centuries of decline. Taldor funding and supporting the Andoran resistance, supporting an Andoran government-in-exile, Cheliax recruiting its own Quislings and Petains and consolidating the Lumber Consortium under the Chellish banner, the Andoran colonies going independent and having to rely more on their Segadan neighbours to fight of Chelaxian ships trying to assert their dominance, that sets up a very cool future status leading up to Inner Sea War II. Especially since, given their histories, most Inner Sea powers have no reason to look more kindly on a resurgent Taldor than they do Cheliax's waning iron grip. At least Cheliax has been doing something to oppose the Whispered Tyrant.

Osirion Arabic

To be a bit more specific, the position in Osirion is more akin to Egypt after the Arab conquests. An Arab elite taking over from the old Greco-Roman/Byzantine elites, but the majority remained indigenous Egyptian. The Keleshites who took over ruled for several thousand years, but the Garundi are the majority and have their own culture and language and identity, the same way the Coptic community do. There's been some intermingling, but they're still distinct groups.

I do not know if this is cannon or not but I think the history of humans goes something like this. All humans were originally Kelid. The algholthu elevated some Kelids to fight their land dwelling enemy; the serpent folk. These elevated Kelid called themselves the Azlanti. Earthfall happens and the Azlanti are mostly wiped out. A few survive and form Thassilon, the Jistka Imperium, and Osirion. Much later after the rise and fall of these empires Taldor is formed by the last Azlanti; Aroden. Aroden becomes a god and Taldor starts expanding its territory. There were eight army's of exploration. The Kelid's were on the receiving end of more than one of these campaigns. The seventh army specifically wiping out the last of the Inger Kelids. This of coarse only applys to the inner sea region as other areas have different history's.

To my knowledge, the Kellids, Shoanti and Ulfen seem to have already been distinct groups before Earthfall, though the Kellids were the most widespread and common. Most Avistani ethnic groups are descended distantly from Kellids, but there's been a lot of cultural and ethnic shifts in the 10,000 years since Earthfall. In Taldor, Azlanti survivors mingled with Aishmayar of what would eventually come to be Qadira, and Taldans and Kellids intermingled where Kellid lands were conquered by the empire. In Cheliax, Azlanti survivors intermarried with Ulfen before they were also conquered by Taldor. The Varisians are descended from the Thassilonians who survived the destruction of their empire, and the Thassilonians were descended from the Azlanti. We don't know where the Azlanti came from, or how much the Algollthu changed them more than simple breeding would have.

The Garundi and Mwangi ethnic groups are related to each other distantly, but arrived in Northern Garund and the Mwangi Expanse from further south during the Age of Ashes and are not closely related to the Avistani. The Varki are descended from Eruktaki who migrated south from the Crown of the World and are more closely related to Tians. And there are more distant ethnic groups in Arcadia, Tian Xia, Casmaron, possibly in Sarusan, none of whom you could accurately say are descended from Kellids.

I guess in short, saying everyone is descended from Kellids is like saying everyone is descended from the Indo-Europeans. A lot of them are, and some of those cultures stayed closer to that original common ancestor than others, but the vast majority did not, and even for those who are, focussing on that ignores the ways those cultures diverged on their own and the other influences they have drawn on.

The Kellids are partly inspired by prehistoric Europeans, especially in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, and Sarkorian God-Callers' eidolons remind me of some of the transitional figures you see in cave paintings, where you get wolf-bears, bear-deers, owl-bison, etc.

If I was going to flavour them with a more recent culture, for Kellids who live closer to what was Old Taldor I would look at the Celts, both ancient and Medieval, especially with their long history of being conquered or ousted by the Roman-esque Taldan Empire. The Isgeri Kellids were absorbed into the empire like the Gauls were, and are now within the Chellish sphere of influence as France was in the Holy Roman Empire, and the history of the Palakari Kellids in Druma seems to me influenced by Scottish history, but with dwarves instead of the English.

The halflings' True Name for themselves is not secret, nor has it been forgotten. It was hidden, locked away in a magical vault on a forgotten demiplane by ancient wizards. If it is ever found, every single one shall assume their true forms and join the ranks of their kin, the giants.

The Starstone doesn't "ascend" anyone. Every single person who has taken the "test" was incinerated to a crisp. It is pure dumb luck, but statistically inevitable given the sheer number of people who risk it, that four people - Aroden, Iomedae, Norgorber and Cayden - already had a spark of divine potential that endured after their corporeal forms were destroyed they survived. There is in fact no test at all, which is why nobody who has passed remembers it, the stone is merely imbued with tremendous and thoroughly uncontrollable power. Aroden put it in a very public and open place for anyone brave or stupid enough to try because he couldn't harness it as a power source, and thought it was a useful way to either dispose of potential rival aspiring demigods, or at least distract them from more viable methods.

The other three Ascended are unaware of their tremendous fortune, and Aroden told nobody the secret before he died. But if one of them had, they all had reason to kill him - Cayden would have killed him for getting people needlessly killed and then be unable to reveal it without diminishing his own worship, Iomedae would have killed him for allowing his most able and dedicated servant nearly kill herself because he saw her as nothing more than a threat to his own power then as a useful tool when it failed, and likewise be unable to reveal the secret without diminishing her worshippers, and Norgorber doesn't need a reason and his worshippers wouldn't care, but he would appreciate the delicious irony of being the last one to know.

Set wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

First, I am pretty sure Andoran will be the aggressor, which never looks good.

I like the theory that Andoran is outraged beyond tolerance when a cabal of powerful Chelish diabolists summon and bind their patron, Talmandor.

That would be beyond cool.

However, I don't see why Cheliax would do that, though. They've got several irons in the fire and don't need the complications of attacks from Andoran and friends.

It doesn't need to be an official act. Cheliax has enough wealthy, arrogant, and evil aristocrats (even by the standards of aristocrats) who would enjoy putting a thumb in Andoran's eye to do something that stupid without House Thrune's knowledge or backing. And from Andoran's perspective, would it matter if it had Thrune sanction or not? If Abrogail can't stop it happening, then she might as well be backing them.

On the broader level, it doesn't really matter who lights the powderkeg, as long as it gets lit, and Andoran and Cheliax can quibble over what was an official declaration of war after the war's over and they're deciding on terms for the loser.

Dragons do not exist. All reports of dragons are actually hallucinations by the hysterical and superstitious, particularly the colourful ones. Governments claim that dragons exist to discourage travellers from leaving the cities where they can control people, or to guide them along the specific travel routes where they can be monitored. What people THINK are dragons are actually dinosaurs that have strayed from their ranges in the Mwangi Expanse or rose up from the subterranean chambers where they survived the extinction of their kind in prehistoric times, but even the most intelligent are no more intelligent than an ape, and are only attracted to gold in the same way magpies are to shiny things. "Draconic" is a language invented by wizards at the behest of the governments to perpetuate the deception and because they also enjoy controlling The People. The Iruxi are in on it too, and speak perfectly good Common when we aren't listening.

If anyone be so motivated as to seek the plunder of souls from under Hell's dark dominion, caring not for the heavy weight o' Pharasma's cesure, then will Besmara not then bless their cause? Is not the Boatman Charon's vessel upon the Styx as tempting a target as ever plied the open seas? I say unto you all, the Pirate Queen cares not if one predicates their piracy upon a convoluted moral framework somewhat unmoored from the practical realities of more mundane sea-based looting, for this is fantasy and that sounds rad for the sorts of folks who are into that!

They're more like...guidelines, than actual edicts and anathemae.

With Paizo phasing out chromatic and metallic dragons, how will their presence be handled along the Golden Road? I'm aware of two major dragons in Osirion, though it doesn't sound too hard to keep the name and plot bunnies they represent and simply change them to primal dragons - Sussurex is already called the "Crystal King" and could be switched from a Blue to a Crystal Dragon, and Asuulek, being interested in a volcano with an extraplanar dimension within, is almost perfect for a Magma Dragon. But blue dragons being more common in the Thuvian desert (especially as guardians/hoarders of the oases) and Katapesh is fairly well established. Do you simply replace them with Cloud Dragons as the closest equivalents? Mirage and Fortune Dragons also sound like ideal inhabitants of vast desert sands that hide ancient treasures. Or is the Golden Road going to find itself populated by a more diverse draconic ecosystem?

The Azlanti had colonies on Golarion's moon and Akiton, while Starfinder canon has them enduring to found an interstellar empire in another star system altogether. They also created an entire construct Ancestry, the Wyrwoods, to serve them, who are capable of enduring for millennia.

'Pretty advanced,' at the very least.

In addition to wyrwoods, much of Jistka's advanced construct crafting was based on surviving Azlanti knowledge, found after Earthfall in a cave where they were stored after earlier tribes pillaged a surviving Azlanti fortress-city. Even most modern constructs are only a pale imitation of what the Jistkans were capable of at their height, which itself was based off looted scraps from a distant outpost, and what survives of Jistka's work has either broken, gone berserk or is starting to awaken to consciousness. If the Azlanti were even more advanced, and were already achieving interstellar travel when Earthfall hit, then they might have full robots more along the lines of what you find in Numeria, robots and androids.

In my mind's eye, Azlant at its height looks like a cross between Atlantis: The Lost Empire and Poseidos from Dinotopia, with a bit of Kobol from Battlestar Galactica. Leaning closer to the techno side of technomagic, making Aroden an anomaly, but with a mystical component to it.

I don't think there's a canon explanation, but I would expect it to vary by dragon type. Some are probably more caring parents than others, though when you're a giant flying reptile I doubt your sex is all that important after the eggs are already laid. A father can sit on a nest just as impatiently as a mother can. But I do think it's important that, although dragons are intelligent, they are not human and should feel like it. These things are massive, can live for centuries (perhaps indefinitely barring accident or incident) and have a perspective on the world that should feel utterly alien to us. We might be able to speak their language crudely, some of them may walk among us in humanoid guise, but we can't possibly know what it's like to truly be one, and vice versa.

As a headcanon answer, I like to think that the reason why dragons collect treasure (which they could never reasonably spend, and thus have no rational reason to value) is because it's a demonstration to prospective mates that they are worth the time and effort, that they can hunt and take on even serious adventurers and that they've been doing it long enough and successfully enough to prove their mettle, but long term mated pairs are rare, and after the eggs hatch whichever dragon parent elected to care for them does so just long enough to teach them draconic, how to hunt and fly (around 16 years, until they could as Young Dragons) and then kick them out of the nest. Not a lot of persistent maternal or paternal sentiment there, and they find the "little mammalians'" concept of it curious and strange. After they've reached a certain size, a child is just another competitor for resources, and I expect the same is true in reverse - siblings are competitors who need to be driven out of territory once it's established, while parents become just another potential predator. The reason why dragons aren't more common is because they tend to thin their own numbers. It comes across as brutal and uncaring to shorter-lived humanoids, but those dragons who bother to explain themselves accept it as part of the natural cycle - and remind humans, elves, dwarves, etc. that they should be very grateful that there aren't more of their kind, considering what their favourite prey tends to be.

As for kobolds, if one is unfortunate enough to find its way into the nest I feel sorry for that young kobold. If it isn't quickly eaten by one of the newly-hatched wyrmlings, it might survive if the dragon was curious, or wanted to raise an emissary to spread word of its magnificence among local kobold tribes, but I can't see most dragons having the patience for that except in exceptional circumstances.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Zoken44 wrote:

The recognition of the Irisseni immigrants from that other place their current queen comes from has caused many questions of how the Osirion gods came to be on this plane. and a name has been whispered during storms in the far north. the name of another god who may have come through, his wing beats like thunder, they whisper the name "Perun"

Surely no one can have missed that the Russian diaspora in Irrisen is very conspicuously Christian?

I wonder what domains Jesus would give? and how they handle being christian in a land where gods are very much real?

People were unhappy about the inclusion of IRL gods like Cernunnos or the gods of Osirion. I'm not sure Jesus H. Christ himself is a third rail that Paizo want to touch.

Osirion Gods are a little uncomfortable around native Golarion Gods, And the Golarion Gods find the nebulous and intermingled familial relationships of the Osirion gods strange.

Lamashtu won't admit it, but she's afraid of Baba Yaga.

I think everybody's afraid of Baba Yaga. The woman could be a god if she wanted to, but decided it came with too many strings attached.

If we're getting into the Osirion gods:

Ra led the rest of his pantheon during the War in Heaven alongside the other gods, and then alongside the forces of Heaven and Hell against Rovagug, and that latter fight is where he first met Sarenrae. Over time the two grew close, both being sun gods who constrained a monstrous enemy that could devour the cosmos, Rovagug and Apep. Ra even became something of a mentor to her as she figured out her fledgling godhood and gave her tips about how to be the patron goddess of the Padishah Empire as it emerged. But by then he had already departed Osirion and left it to Horus, who in turn led the other gods to leave for their planar home(s). Sarenites don't always like to acknowledge the connection, since they think it diminishes her, but Ancient Osirian murals sometimes show Sarenrae standing beside Ra with his hand on her shoulder, the same way a father would be shown with a daughter, or a god supporting a king. Sarenrae has made it clear that she will no longer tolerate the deliberate destruction of Ra's iconography, even to convert it for her congregations. Horus on the other hand kept her at a courteous but professional distance, but his wife Hathor was a close friend, and has been inconsolable even by the Dawnflower herself since Horus and the others were cast out of Golarion.

Osiris judges (or at least, judged) the dead as he does in Ancient Egypt, but he did so with Pharasma's permission. When Set tore him to pieces and hid the pieces across the world, Isis sought them out. Whatever bargain she struck with Pharasma in exchange for resurrecting her husband remains between the two of them. But Osiris judged the souls of those who still worshipped the old gods as a lower court of Pharasma's tribunals. Isis is very careful that nobody knows what she agreed to, or rather, she had flooded the zone with many flamboyant and exaggerated accounts of what she might have agreed to and plays coy about which are true. Pharasma simply ignores all inquiries. Now that Osiris and Isis are gone, or at least their influence on Golarion is even weaker than before, his divine servants are trying to figure out what to do in his absence - do they just default to Pharasma's judgement again, or does Nephthys take her brother's throne and do the job that Anubis, Thoth and Osiris once split between them?

Sobek and Cayden are drinking buddies, and the two occasionally incarnate as a human and a lizardfolk to barcrawl - Cayden shows Sobek all the delights of Absalom's bars and brothels on a Friday night, Sobek shows Cayden the joys of a decent kebab, a hookah pipe and a bottle of date wine in Sothis, and the two are well known to the local guards of both cities who keep putting up Wanted posters of the two for their drunken shenanigans, unaware they're actually gods. Sometimes they invite Kurgess along, who doesn't really get the appeal of boozing but does like a well-run fight pit. They no longer invite Set after that night in Marblecourt.

Lamashtu tried, a long time ago, to destroy Apep herself, thinking he would be easy prey and she could devour the power of another god. She has not made that mistake again. With the disappearance of Ra and the gods that once protected him, Apep briefly manifested in the skies of Osirion before the lightning of Set blasted him back into the Twelfth Hour of Night. Not out of benevolence, but because if anyone is going to conquer and rule the cosmos it will be him.

All of the Osiriani gods consider Nethys an upstart and a usurper, an outsider who stole what was theirs, and is now partly responsible for the diminishing of their pantheon. Previously, there was only some tension between the clergy of Thoth and Nethys, since their mortal followers tended to come into academic conflict. Now it is open animosity among even the most amiable of them towards Nethys. Nethys, as usual, gives off mixed signals - he either doesn't care about their wrath and is confident he could weather it, or isn't even aware and might be surprised and offended to be blamed for it.

I'm not worried about what happens when Jacobs and Mona retire. They're not the only competent people who can maintain an overarching metanarrative, and even if their successors change things, change isn't bad.

But I certainly think having a proper book just for the history is a good idea, and that you can pair that with GM resources by having chapters on the ancient empires as plot fodder. Let that knowledge be cordoned off from knowledge of the modern setting, making it feel like something rare or that needs discovery, and also allow you to go into more detain than a general setting guide can. Let a hypothetical Lost Omens: the Golden Road focus on the modern world, with a few references to the truly ancient stuff to give a sense of antiquity, and then have a hypothetical Lost Omens: Fallen Kingdoms book have full sections on things like the Jistkan Imperium, the Tekritanin League, Ancient Osirion that you can use for plot hooks and story threads. The same applies to other ancient empires, like the Shory of Garund, Taumata Empire of Tian Xia, Koloran and Ninshabur in Casmaron, Old Razatlan in Arcadia, and of course Azlant and Thassilon, plus any others Paizo would like to create for parts of the world we haven't seen much of yet. Add in some archetypes, backgrounds, feats and spells to represent those lost or faded knowledge and skills, and the people uncovering and reviving them, and that would be a fascinating book to read.

He is also one of the few who can call her Meda.

He pronounces it "Yo, Meda!"

My headcanon is that Iomedae is asexual, but not aromantic. She is not just a patron of knights and crusaders, but of the chaste, courtly attraction embodied by Lancelot and Guinevere, pulled between desire and dishonour, where the beauty is in the tension, perpetually drawn out but never consummated. She's also firmly monogamous, and thus flamed out of Sarenrae's polycule because it just wasn't working - Iomedae resented Sarenrae's attentions being divided and clearly not being the senior partner, while Sarenrae struggled with the idea of compassion and love restrained. They remain cordial allies, but there's an unspoken tension there between them that their worshippers have misinterpreted as doctrinal. She briefly considered Ragathiel as someone more closely aligned to her own ethos, but Ragathiel is too much of a Blood Knight for her tastes, and there's some resentment on his end over the Hand of the Inheritor leaving his service for hers. For now, she's content to be single.

My headcanon is that Iomedae is asexual, but not aromantic. She is not just a patron of knights and crusaders, but of the chaste, courtly attraction embodied by Lancelot and Guinevere, pulled between desire and dishonour, where the beauty is in the tension, perpetually drawn out but never consummated. She's also firmly monogamous, and thus flamed out of Sarenrae's polycule because it just wasn't working - Iomedae resented Sarenrae's attentions being divided and clearly not being the senior partner, while Sarenrae struggled with the idea of compassion and love restrained. They remain cordial allies, but there's an unspoken tension there between them that their worshippers have misinterpreted as doctrinal. She briefly considered Ragathiel as someone more closely aligned to her own ethos, but Ragathiel is too much of a Blood Knight for her tastes, and there's some resentment on his end over the Hand of the Inheritor leaving his service for hers. For now, she's content to be single.

At least in my games, where I've tried to incorporate some positive Zoroastrian and Islamic influence that offsets the Jihadist tropes that the old Cult of the Dawnflower used to play into, Sarenites are an extremely diverse lot. Just about the only thing they agree on is the importance of the solar cycle, with prayers in the morning, at noon, and at dusk. But as the worship of Sarenrae has spread across Golarion, it often adapts to its local environments, rather than the other way around.

The most conservative and traditionalist congregations come from Qadira, influenced by the oldest traditions from the Padishah Empire (and even in the empire, Sarenites are divided into a dizzying number of sects who all fiercely disagree on what seem like small differences to outsiders), with large fire temples where people gather to revere the eternal flames they keep burning. Many of them have stories about one angel or another descending to light it personally, and the flames are often considered miraculous (though easy to imitate with a permanent Continual Flame enchantment). Qadiran Sarenites tend to think of themselves as the ecclesiastical Elder Statesmen among Sarenites in the Inner Sea, and assume other sects should simply defer to their "experience" and get frustrated when Sarenites from other lands don't pay Keleshite culture as much respect as they should. In Avistan, Sarenites have a lingering distrust of the Qadiran orthodoxy because of the history of persecution that associating with them earned their ancestors from Taldor's distrust - the collapse of the empire didn't do away with all that distrust, especially among Chelaxian authorities who see Sarenites as natural revolutionaries against the Asmodean order, and many Sarenites prefer to emphasise their own roots in Avistan than their god's Casmaron origins, devout Sarenites but loyal citizens. In Absalom, which largely stayed out of Taldor and Qadira's conflicts, Sarenites have historically been torn between a bunch of conflicting pulls that have strangely balanced out over time, and people haven't forgotten that it was a coalition of local Sarenites who rooted out the extremist Cult of the Dawnflower there. There are various sects who reflect phases when Absalom was more influenced by one side or another, Keleshite-style temples and mosques and Taldan-style churches, some differences in liturgy or ritual, but most Absalom Sarenites keep their international politics and their religion a separate matter and don't consider Sarenrae to take sides unless people are suffering.

Now for the parts I've done the most thinking on. Across the Golden Road, the worship of Sarenrae was spread by Keleshite travellers, traders and immigrants, but as they put down roots they adapted to different regions in different ways.

Thuvian Sarenites, simply because of their proximity to Rahadoum, but also some lingering influence from the Cult of the Dawnflower, are more militant than most, but are trying to instead focus on more local matters - Sarenite cavalry, not quite knights but light and mobile archers who once raided the borders of Rahadoum in the name of Sarenrae until she recently made her displeasure known and disbanded the cult, now turn their attentions to the bandits and Water Lords, or at least the Water Lords who refuse to allow travellers access to their oases, or prey on vulnerable travellers. As disenchanted Dawnflower cultists turn to darker patrons to continue their extreme agenda, or turn out to have always worshipped them and were using Sarenrae as a front, these also earn the wrath of Thuvian Sarenites. They also tend to be a bit more polytheist than the mostly henotheistic Qadiran organisation, incorporating more Empyreal Lords into their personal pantheons alongside Sarenrae, and use ancient dances to work themselves into a fervor like Norse shield-biting berserkers did - such dances were once a prelude to battle, and some date back to days of the Tekritanin League in modified form, but are now done to keep the traditions alive. Thuvia has a few temples in the cities built in the Keleshite style, but most ceremonies are held in the open air, especially among the desert clans.

In Osirion, the ancient traditions died hard and took a long time even stripped of royal patronage and national funding, and the worship of some gods never truly became extinct as the new Keleshite rulers tried to stamp out what they mistook for the superstitious worship of Rakshasa-like demons. As Keleshites put down roots there, the Cult of the Dawnflower - more aggressive in their proselytisation and more willing to consider new methods and new ideas - made Sarenrae more acceptable to the local populace by adapting the cults of sun gods like Ra and Horus, converting temples with open courtyards to let the sun shine in, and depicting Sarenrae in local fashion often with Ra and Horus standing behind her with a hand of endorsement on her shoulder (whether either god ever officially had any ties to her, or why she would need their endorsement, is something the modern Sarenite priesthood refuses to be baited into answering). But what was originally meant to be a tool to ease the native Garundi into a more "civilised" Keleshite culture, not a permanent tradition, backfired and over time, especially as Pharaonic culture has had a resurgence under the Forthbringers, the worship of Sarenrae as if she were one of the Gods of Osirion has become the norm. Traditional Keleshite-style worship is associated with the former rulers by both the Garundi and the remaining Keleshite populace, neither of whom have forgotten their resentments against Qadira - Garundi for being conquered by it, and Keleshites for being mistreated as a colony rather than an independent satrapy in its own right. On the other hand, local Sarenites are also suspicious of the neighbouring militant sects of Thuvia and Katapesh - not that they're cowards, or overlook injustice, but they of all people remember what an excess of zeal and too little foreplanning accomplished, since Osirion still struggles with its legacy, so Osiriani Sarenites come across as more reserved, quicker to urge caution and slower to act, but like a crushing tidal wave when finally roused to anger. Most Sarenite ceremonies in Osirion are carried out by a professional and trained priesthood, rather than having congregations, and on the summer solstice the cult image of Sarenrae is paraded through the streets sitting on her boat held atop the shoulders of her priests, but the average people pay their respects at shrines and continue the traditions during the solstices, including the sword dances, folk songs and plays reenacting episodes of Sarenite mythology, sometimes with an Osirian god or two thrown in for flavour - there's a lot of emphasis on Horus leaving the world to Sarenrae after he led the other gods to leave Osirion, solidifying her as a legitimate successor rather than a usurper.

In Katapesh, Sarenites became more esoteric and mystical, and have adapted the smoking of pesh to induct religious trances. Katapeshi Sarenites get side-eyed even by other Sarenites and have a (unfairly exaggerated) reputation as drug-addled hermits. But outside of Thuvia, who also bear the Dawnflower's complicated militant legacy, they're also the most willing to take up a sword and hunt down evil, since they're often the only ones willing to. They're also a lot friendlier with local Iomedean knightly orders than Sarenites elsewhere, who usually consider Iomedeans too unforgiving. It was Iomedean knights who rode to the defence of Solku's Sarenite defenders from a seige by gnoll slavers when nobody else would, and even though every knight died, the Sarenites have never forgotten. Katapeshi worship is often self-organised, or in small groups who democratically elect their leaders, and they pair their religious veneration with active community patrols - if the Pactmasters aren't willing to deter or investigate crime unless it's profitable, then a rag-tag citizen-militia will - and there's more of an emphasis on the flame that burns within than any flame that burns without, drawing on local Badawi traditions. The pesh mystics become more insular and reclusive over time as they lose touch with the concerns of the mortal world and pursue higher spiritual truths, which isn't entirely approved of by Sarenites who consider it their duty to put right the injustices that exist in this world before seeking the next, but their spiritual investigations are often important and highly respected.

Further south, you get to the Impossible Lands - Nex, Vudra, Alkenstar - where most Sarenites are traders or immigrants from Qadira, so Sarenite worship is a little more traditional and conservative there. The average Sarenite tries to keep their head down, build trade connections between the local merchants and family connections "back home," and be good citizens, and other people regard them as a quirky but mostly harmless minority. The wizards rulers of Nex, on the other hand, regard the cult of Sarenrae as the thin end of a wedge that Qadira might someday choose to push, the same way Nex feared Khiben-Said might have if he'd put down roots, and keep a wary eye on them. There are some scattered sun temples in the cities, but they resolutely stay out of Geb (at least officially - Pharasmins aren't the only ones who send covert agents across the border to stir trouble for the undead rulers).

I think one reason why racism against Tieflings in a diabolist nation seems like a disconnect is because we tend to think of "faith" wrong. If you think the average Chelaxian thinks of Asmodeus the way someone who worships a god does, that he is good, looking out for you, and his servants are benevolent, then yes Tieflings being herded into slums and ghettoes does sound a bit weird. But Cheliax doesn't really have that relationship with Asmodeus and the Hells, and I doubt even Asmodean clerics feel that way - you don't get to be a cleric without understanding (at least part) of what your god truly represents and wants. You just have to be completely down for it. Cheliax's relationship with Asmodeus and the Hells is more transactional, an exchange of goods and services. Just because Hell backs the Thrune dynasty doesn't mean people have to like them, or think its rulers are benevolent.

In that context, Tieflings suddenly become a threat to the human population - like half-elves, it's hard to hide an indiscretion when there's physical proof of it, but at least half-elves filter relatively harmlessly into the general human population. Every descendant of a Tiefling is also a Tiefling, and the more they have the more they dilute the human population. Especially in Cheliax, which has historically valued the (vastly overstated) purity of its Azlanti descent, I expect miscegenation in general isn't approved of by Chelaxian society. Among the nobility, Tiefling children are an embarrassment, visible proof of what should be respectably kept hidden. And your average superstitious peasant, kept dirt-poor and ignorant and occasionally terrorised by Asmodean Inquisitors and Hellknights who demonstrate the brutality of Hell as a deterrent, probably can't tell the difference between a Tiefling and a real devil and wouldn't understand the difference if it was explained to them. The fact that 2e Tieflings are now called Cambions, when 1e Cambions used to be a type of true demon born from an incubus, might also confuse things. The average Chelaxian can't even tell the difference between a Tiefling and some Aasimars/Empyreans.

Human nature has also shown that when times are hard there will always be some vulnerable minority who are just powerful enough to fear but always weak enough to be kept in line, that people can blame when times are hard. And for the last 119 years, times have been very tough for Cheliax - the death of Aroden and the rough times that followed the Thrune ascendancy, the loss of Ravounel and an uprising by Iomedean paladins, loss of Sargava, disaster in its Arcadian colonies and competition with Andoran, and the recent abolition of slavery probably is causing some social unrest as well, and just a general sense of imperial decline and the social and economic effects that brings. But there'll always be Tieflings to blame when the crops fail, or an Andoran corsair sinks your husband's ship, or a fiendish tyrannosaur eats your caravan while it's travelling through the forest, some rumour of cloven hoofprints after any theft, glowing eyes in a ram-horned head leering in the window when children go missing. And with the upcoming war, I'd expect rumours that the Tieflings are passing information to Andoran or are Andoran saboteurs as revenge for how they're treated to start spreading as paranoia sets in, especially if Cheliax suffers some severe setbacks and needs a propaganda scapegoat.

Knowing absolutely nothing about Sarkoris other than it's a formerly demon-infested realm once populated by the vaguely-Celtic kellids that has finally been liberated through the actions of knights, it would be neat to get some Arthurian influence there. Not the High Medieval Arthur of the Romantic epics, I mean the original Arthur of Welsh mythology, the warband chieftain who rode a talking salmon to free the god Mabon so he could help his retainer slay a cursed giant boar and win the hand of the giant Ysbaddadon's daughter. Not an importation like in Osirion, but something inspired by it could be extremely cool. Maybe some of the knights who stood against the demonic horde have passed into folklore and become local saints or Heroes, and their desperate stands to hold them back become the stuff of myth and legend? And since modern Sarkoris is undergoing such radical changes, that gives a bit of a blank slate for that.

I'm with Zimmerwald1915 on this. The more you game it out, the more the events required for Qadira to even think about getting involved just don't make sense as part of this Adventure Path, but might make for a fascinating AP dealing with the imperial intrigue of the Padishah Empire with Qadira possibly declaring war on Taldor as a possible consequence of failure, perhaps after we get a currently hypothetical Lost Omens: Casmaron setting guide.

Although Asmodeus is clearly a Satan analogue, he doesn't actually bear the "Father of Lies" epithet. But if I was going to play him as a DM, his would be the "I have people to do that for me" style of swindler, who sticks to the letter of the law, and perhaps the spirit of the law when convenient. But the iron fist he rules the Hells with doesn't actually care about honesty or deceit, but about power - who has it, and who doesn't.

My favourite depictions of the Devil or Devil-like figures in pop culture are where he doesn't have to lie to get what he wants. His tradecraft is dramatic irony, giving exactly what they thought they wanted, playing into their vanities and lusts and desires, only for them to find they no longer want it, or have the capacity to enjoy it. Even by being someone who tries to dabble with diabolic forces, you have already swung the pendulum in his favour, and he may get your soul anyway. His henchmen, lesser devils and so forth, might wheel and deal, scheme and lie, but at the end of the day the Devil is the most honest creature outside of Heaven, who has never pretended to be other than what he is. If you get suckered, knowing the terms laid out, then frankly it's on you. He might lose a soul or two to a technicality, but he is happy to abide by the terms and play the long game because he knows that he'll win sooner or later, because while good is fragile and predictable, evil is eternal and lurks within the hearts of all men.

"What though the field be lost?
All is not lost; the unconquerable Will,
And study of revenge, immortal hate,
And courage never to submit or yield:
And what is else not to be overcome?
That Glory never shall his wrath or might
Extort from me."
- John Milton, "Paradise Lost" Book 1

If Volkorgoth isn't necessarily around anymore, I like the idea that the Orc pantheon doesn't have a divine realm at all, but that like the Golden Horde of Genghis Khan they maraud across the Outer Planes, sometimes setting up camp on Heaven's Shore where the angels try to prevent Incidents and other times invading Hell where the devils try to do the same, and then at other times plundering Axis before diving into the Abyss to slay a Demon Lord or two just to keep themselves sharp, their divine realm wherever the Orc gods happen to be camping at the time.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

SNIP

I would say that in medieval society 90% of population was a peasants. Also, due to size of Cheliax and fact that Golarion comparable with Earth, Cheliax population would 20-40 millions.

As I understand, it's a little more complicated than that. Even if it's true, none of the Inner Sea's nations exactly map to the feudal model it was developed for. I recall that 3.5 had something like it for kingdom building, but there's no reason for Paizo to be bound to it if they don't want to be.

Sorry, that should read "empire on Golarion."

As I recall from Lost Omens: Travel Guide, the reason why teleportation circles aren't used en masse, at least for goods, is that a.) governments don't like it when people have a way to bypass their toll and tax gatherers or register their arrival for their records, and b.) teleportation has some unpleasant potential side effects when done on a large scale. I can't imagine those don't apply just as much to people as it does to trade goods.

As far as I know, the only places he was worshipped openly were the Shining Kingdoms, Absalom and Old Cheliax. There's no hint that Aroden was ever worshipped in Northern Garund as far as I know, in the Mwangi Expanse, or to the north where the Taldan empire didn't reach, or outside of Avistan except perhaps as Namzaruum. He's considered fairly obscure in Arcadia, a vague figure connected to the Kumaru Tree and the reason Arazni left her homeland.

Given the themes of Aroden's life and death, I wouldn't be surprised of "god of humanity" wasn't an accurate description, but a statement of intent, whether by himself or his human worshippers. Look at the three regions he's most connected to - the Shining Kingdoms, the Taldan imperial heartland founded by Azlanti survivors; Absalom, raised by Aroden's search for the Starstone, which had its own imperialist phase that came back to bite it; and Cheliax, which has historically tried to style itself as the natural successors of Azlant, was meant to be Aroden's empire on Earth. All built on different views of the Azlanti legacy. Aroden might not have seen himself as specifically the god of Azlanti humans and their descendants, both hereditary and cultural, but it seems to me that's how he would have been seen by his own worshippers, bringing the light of Azlanti culture to all of humanity (whether they wanted it or not).

I suppose it all depends on Aroden's definition of "humanity," and he's not around anymore to say.

The only thing I could see dragging Taldor into the war is if Qadira intervenes first, to pacify the hardliners and maintain the balance of power between them. Even that seems unlikely - Qadira has no more reason to particularly care who wins than Taldor does, and it has its own trade industry that might want to take up the slack if Cheliax or Andoran's fleets get knocked out. It's longstanding Keleshite policy to expand its influence subtly through economic rather than military arrangements, the annexation of Osirion aside, and a full blown military intervention on that scale is how Qadira got its foreign policy taken away from its Satrap in the first place, given to an Imperially appointed Vizier who likely has no interest in involving the empire in what it would see as a backwater squabble. On the other hand, if Taldor gets involved then Qadira is almost obliged to do the same, if only to check the rising power of Taldor, which is a great reason for Taldor not to. But Taldor and Qadira seems like too big a conflict for this upcoming story, and distracts from the Cheliax/Andoran war.

IIRC, there are also hints that Aroden is the true identity of the legendary Ninshaburrian hero-king Namzaruum, "the Sword," whose return the surviving Ninshaburrians still hopefully await.

I've long thought that Rahadoum, Thuvia and Osirion collaborating to build a railway along the Northern Garundi coastline would be an interesting idea, as goods pass from Absalom to Totra, then onward to Aspenthar to Merab and then to Manaket. It also gives the chance to expand Rahadoum's Jistkan heritage - there are a lot of constructs buried under the sands to inspire a magical locomotive. Combine that with Thuvia's alchemical interests, and Osiriani backers looking for a return on investments, and that's a cool sandbox to flesh out. You can then have the train navigating from oasis to oasis as it passes into Thuvia where the Water Lords and local tribes have either decided to allow the trains to refuel and water at their oases (for a modest fee) or try their luck raiding them, with adventurers hired to guard the cargoes.

Meanwhile, Cheliax really strikes me as zeppelin territory, not sure why... :P

The impression I have is that Aroden is only immortal because he was already a very high-level wizard (one of the 20th level Arcane Discoveries in 1e was that you stop ageing). The Azlanti might have been longer-lived than modern people, ala the Numenoreans versus the rest of mankind like the Rohirrim, it's an old trope, but I don't remember it being stated. Aroden is just an exception to a lot of rules.

I said in a previous thread, and I think it still holds true, that the smartest thing Taldor could do is to remain utterly neutral in the conflict, and make sure both nations have thoroughly wrecked each other so that it can swoop in to pose itself as a viable replacement as regional economic and naval power and try to restore some of its regional hegemony, if not the old Empire.

Another party I can see staying neutral is Osirion. I doubt Osirion particularly likes Cheliax, who have a long history of plundering its tombs, but the actions of its Eagle Knights probably haven't endeared Andoran to the Ruby Prince either. If I recall correctly, there are only three nations whose ambassadors have been summoned by the Ruby Prince to express his displeasure with them, and two of them are Cheliax and Andoran.

Thuvia I see having no reason to join either. Cheliax is too distant a threat, and too lucrative a bidder for the Sun Orchid Elixer, for it to rock the boat. Likewise, Qadira might not appreciate the cut into its international trade but it has as much money at stake in Andoran as it would in Cheliax - both have a foothold in Arcadia, so it only needs one of them to survive. But Rahadoum might be willing to lend Andoran some of its resources. It's still consolidating the province that it took off Cheliax, is a direct neighbour with only the Arch of Aroden between them, and if Cheliax's navy is finally knocked out Rahadoum could position itself as a successor for Arcadian shipping and naval protection with enough time to build a fleet. Rahadoum as the potential to be the Carthage to Cheliax's Rome (or, I suppose, vice versa - Rahadoum as the fledgeling rising power and Cheliax as the once great power whose star is on the decline) and I think that would be a cool ongoing dynamic that gives Rahadoum more than "we hate the gods." But until then, it's useful for Andoran to shred as much of its own taking on Cheliax as it can afford to.

On the other hand, you have Andoran's northern neighbours who are facing the Whispering Tyrant and probably wouldn't be happy to be deprived of the military forces and supplies provided by Cheliax, even if they come with strings. Whatever beef exists between Cheliax and Andoran is no business of Oprak, Druma, Molthune and Nirmathas, and takes resources away from the ongoing efforts to contain the legions of undead that ravage the Gravelands and menace its neighbours. On the other hand, if Cheliax's eye is taken off the ball Molthune has historically eyed it hungrily, kept at bay only by the risk of pissing off their Thrune backers, and might take Andoran up on an offer to "acknowledge their historical territorial claims" and let them run rampant if it opens up a second front Cheliax have to fight along. But Oprak are notably mercenary, and might be persuaded to aid Cheliax for the right amount of coin, especially if that coin goes to bolstering its forces fighting Tar-Baphon and reinforce its border with Molthune.

And just for shits and giggles, let's throw in Nex throwing some diplomatic (and covert magical) support for one faction, and Geb supporting the other just so that Nex doesn't get a return on its investment. For fun, Nex might not appreciate the destruction of Cheliax, another major power on Golarion with extraplanar connections, while I think Geb (both the nation and the wizard) would get a kick out of getting a toehold in Avistan and positioning itself as an ally against Tar-Baphon if Cheliax can't hold up its alliances - one undead nation supporting the enemies of another.

Wonder what's the DC to find out the secret will is forged ?

Not as high as the DC to survive the Glyph of Warding set on the scroll set to the trigger word "illegitimate":P

If Cheliax still retains some Imperial Roman flavour in the same way that Taldor echoes something Byzantine and Ravounel is reviving a Republic, "legitimacy" was probably once a formal recognition by the Senate. Romans could simply adopt an heir if they hadn't fathered one, and when an Emperor did this their legitimacy was acknowledged by the Senate, mostly as a pretence that the Emperor wasn't a totalitarian dictator. Fortunately for House Thrune, the Senate seems to have remained in Taldor and Cheliax doesn't have its own equivalent, so they don't have to pretend.

If an heir needs anything more for legitimacy than the declaration of their predecessor, the old Senate has likely been replaced by the feudal noble houses. So legitimacy is probably what you might expect from the medieval period - what the reigning Majestor/Majestrix says it is, with the ruling nobility making shows of acknowledgement to give the heir the appearance of the need for their endorsement while publicly displaying their loyalty. Add to that the diabolical pacts that House Thrune maintains with Hell to guarantee and protect their position. I don't know much about Hell's Rebels, I didn't get very far into it when my group tried to play it, but IIRC the legimate claim of House Thrune is a major overarching plot point, so it might be worth reading.

If I remember correctly, Taldor is also considered extremely unusual among Inner Sea nations for retaining primogeniture, an archaic and backwards legacy of its imperial period that most other nations have moved past. Cheliax being ruled by powerful queens doesn't necessarily mean it's ditched primogeniture, some of Britain's most famous monarchs were queens like Elizabeth I and II, Victoria, etc. Even places that preference male inheritance will sometimes reluctantly tolerate a woman on the throne if there is no successor that won't cause a war. But given Cheliax's infernal obsession with contracts, I'd be surprised if some lawyer or other hasn't found a way to bypass whatever Taldan archaicisms might obstruct a female heir if one could pay them enough to claim her inheritance.

I imagine most halflings accept the name simply because it's so common, and given their long history of being enslaved, and enslavers usually having little interest in what their property call themselves, whatever "actual" name they have in their own language hasn't caught on among their neighbours.

Alternatively, perhaps halflings see having one name for their species as unacceptably reductive? We know that there are names for many halfling ethnicities, such as Jarics, Mihrinis, Song'o, Nearics, Uhlan, and the (perhaps ancestral) Othobans, they might simply not appreciate being lumped in together as if Jarics and Mihrinis were the same thing?

To the north of Sandpoint is Windsong Abbey, a theological neutral zone where doctrines from across the world come to debate, discuss and critique each other without violence, even representatives of "evil" gods. I'm not aware of an adventure path about it you could rework, but I've thought that a murder-mystery set there, with clerics and religious officials from multiple sects coming together to solve it, would be a nice little self-contained adventure.

Until recently the Lumber Consortium also had a monopoly over Andoran's colony in Arcadia, Elesomare, close to the Segada Protocol who restrict Avistani access to Arcadian markets. Elesomare seems to have overthrown the Consortium's control recently, but the wealth that would have flowed into their coffers through lucrative taxes and tariffs, especially as the Chelaxian colonies suffered problems as Canorus was overrun by Caligni and undead, would have bolstered their power elsewhere - perhaps one reason why Andoran was reluctant to do anything about Elsomare's rebelliousness.

what comes next?

They've been freed, do they know how hard it is to lead?

But more seriously, a country trying to put itself back together after a long Reign of Terror could be a wonderful place to tell stories of intrigue, and as real French history shows the backslide into authoritarianism is entirely possible. Galt has as much of a claim to the old Taldan Empire legacy as Ravounel or Cheliax do, and it has neighbours to the north who are vulnerable and potentially lucrative if Galt could secure the overland route from Sarkoris now that Lake Encarthan isn't safe due to a certain Whispered Tyrant. And as happened in France, there might be any number of potential heirs hoping to be restored to their grandfathers' estates now that the Gray Gardeners are gone.

Meanwhile, I hope that a 2e treatment gives Paizo the chance to make Andoran seem like a cooler place to tell stories. It gets stereotyped as the Revolutionary America setting because Democracy, but I feel like you could do a lot to draw influence from Dutch history, especially the Stadholderless periods and the Anglo-Dutch Wars, with the diminishing of Chelaxian naval power and perhaps the rise of Taldan naval power under Eutropia, Andoran trying to carve itself out as more of a naval power in Golarion's Age of Sail. You could do a great campaign centred around that, never setting foot on land other than maybe a few port cities.

I like to think most people outside Razmiran mostly consider Razmir a joke until you cross the border and find yourself in an interrogation room, the same way many people dabble in North Korea tourism, except for the people who "ironically" worship Razmir in the same way chuds adopt warhammer 40k slang as a signifier, and then fall down a Razmir rabbit hole that leads from ironic to sincere Razmir worship, if only to find community with other like-minded edgelords. Over time, through self-reinforcement and peer pressure, any doubts about his divinity get buried by the need to performatively demonstrate your membership of the in-group as part of an in-group and as a way of rising the ladder of power.

BylethEisner wrote:

Lost Omens Divine Mysteries page 23

" True Gods are not alwasys the oldest, though all those-like you, my Lady-that are so ancient as to have existed before the Age of Creation appear to fall into this category. Among these are Abadar, NETHYS, Sarenrae, Calistria, Gozreh, Asmodeus, Torag, Gorum, and that horror Rovagug. But the Ascended-Iomedae, Cayden Cailean, and Norgorber-are quite young and yet must also be counted among true gods because they are so powerful."

Nethys is supposed to be an ascended together with Irori and also one of the young gods? not before the age of creation.

Confirmation that Nethys is actually an ancient god that pretend to be an ascended human so he can hang out with the younlings?

Explain why he seems mad, the incarnation of all magic must have no idea how mortal actually act.

But in all seriousness, I think they intended for either Desna or Erastil to be here instead of Nethys. It is interesting tho that apparently Gozreh is so ancient, when I always though that he was born along with golarion ecosystem (and thus, after Rovagug's cage was closed).

I mean, one of the prime tenets of modern Christianity is that Christ is BOTH eternal, and has always existed, AND that he incarnated as a man who was born and died. The Arians disagreed, and were excommunicated for it. If the rules around gods can be a bit wibbly, then it's entirely possible for Nethys to have been a mortal in Northern Garund imbued with nascent divinity who apotheosised by (re?)discovering the Three Riddles after Azghaad slew Ulunat as his first miracle, AND that Nethys has existed as long as magic has and just solidified what he stood for, or made himself known to universe, through Azghaad.

For that matter, Pharasmin doctrine holds that Pharasma herself is the only survivor from the previous universe, and that her daughter Atropos will be the only survivor of this current one. If that's true, then where do Abadar, Sarenrae, Gozreh, etc. come from if not that previous universe? The Asmodeans claim Sarenrae wasn't even a god initially, but an angel who ascended after the death of Ihys, a version that seems reinforced by one of the Godsrain Prophesies, but the death of Ihys happened after the creation of the universe (if it happened). And if other gods DID survive the last universe, does that mean some other gods might survive this one now that the power of the prophesies that said otherwise has been sundered by Aroden's death?

I guess my specific point is, I hope this isn't an error, but another variant to add to the mix. For a fictional pantheon, the more myths there are, and the more contradictions there are, the more interesting it becomes both as someone who engages with the fiction and as a DM who might want some plot hooks.

I am a little perplexed why, of all gods, Acavna and Amaznen are not in the In Memoriam section. True, they're not exactly recent deaths, but then neither is Aroden.