Maxximilius's page

My main issue with Paizo ever since after the APG is not so much the recurrent and unnecessary nerfs, but rather the glut of worthless options caused by a design policy that values trap, underwhelming and overly restrictive options as voluntary design, not to speak about broken rules that just don't work as written. It's a shame, considering there are always gems of cool content to go along them.

When you peruse supplements, there are way too much unusable rules that actively punish you for picking a specific theme that could have been handled in another fashion. And even then, the new rules that bring something useful get nerfed afterhand, while the crap that needs fixing is forgotten in fear of breaking it the other way in the process. This hurts even more the classes that depend utterly on their class options and talents. Meanwhile, casters keep getting new must-have spells and feats improving their spells, increasing the disparity.

(Just saying, anyone having issues with the martial/caster disparity may like to take a look at the Spheres of Power alternate magic system, only to never go back to vancian spellcasters ever again and cherish its best investment in material to play Pathfinder RPG since the Core Rulebook.)

More questions arise : do automatons act during your own round or do you roll initiative for them when they are activated ? Are they able to perform 5-foot steps ? (this one in particular is to determine if a ranged automaton is actually in for a world of pain, especially if you don't want to rebuild your alpha every other combat)

This is awesome. The only thing missing is the ability to wield firearms sooner (I bought the supplement introducing this ability and was sad to see it come up so late)... considering their drawbacks, I would have loved to see them receive clunky proficiency with one-handed firearms at lower levels, then lesser misfires, then two-handed with invention upgrades, so as to balance things out. Guess I'll ask the DM nicely to see if he'll allow this tweak when I get to play one ;)

I have a quick but important question about abilities that increase an automaton's HD : does an empowered automaton also receive the BAB, saving throws and ability bonuses it would receive by gaining those HD naturally thanks to the tinker leveling up, as per the progression table ? Or does increasing the HD only increase an automaton's HP ?

Thanks, awesome !

Just a question about weapon proficiencies : is there any difference I'm missing between the garrote cord and garrote wire ? The wire has exactly the same properties as the cord, except that it deals much more damage...

I'd love to see an update, our group is using the awesome Kirthfinder Weapon Proficiencies subsystem, but it seems it has been updated several times and the only version available online is badly outdated...

Hi everyone !

Do you like 3PP classes but find they are lacking options ?
Well, The Secrets of Renegade Archetypes II just received a 5-stars + seal of approval rating by the reviewer Endzeitgeist :

Check the full review and download the supplement HERE !

(... did I mention there are rules to play a brain-in-a-jar ? Who could resist the call of such a higher form of being and existence ?)

In the meantime, in case you missed those, know that there are class options that I have not yet put into my archetypes documents :

The Handcannoneer has been revised !
This siegebreaking, heavy firearm gunslinger archetype based around firing a single shot per round but making it count (including shooting blots of thunder through your cannon, pot mortars, flamethrowers, nets, harpoons !) will give a new meaning to "one-hit wonder" with a simple but tactical and rewarding character.

... and even more to come !
I also intend to do a complete overhaul of the rules I wrote sometimes several years ago when I had a lot less experience, in order to have more balanced and interesting options in my Archetypes documents... but that will be when I have time, and time is currently a scarce ressource because I'm not a Chronomage yet. (Especially if you want to see little red class support someday, christos gurd ;) )

I hope you'll love them !
- "Brain-in-a-jar" Maxximilius

Thanks for this awesome review Endzeitgeist, and thanks for the compliment Marc, I'm glad you loved this book. :)

Cheers !

Vomiting and stinking aren't really abilities I imagine when I think of gluttony. There's also like two or three abilities that have to do with being fat.

There's more to gluttony than just eating. It's when you overindulge.

Hi Cyrad, thanks for your comment. I know gluttony is not only about eating but more about a wild and unreasonable attitude toward food, money, alcohol, sex, drugs or power, toward any kind of addiction actually. I had to choose how to write abilities based on the fact that such individual themes could (and would) be covered within the most appropriate deadly sin, which I intend to post on these boards. I also thought about the reaction of the reader finding the purge ability first which could set a too silly tone for the rest of the mystery, but decided to go for it anyway.

As a design choice, I made this mystery by focusing on the most popular depiction of gluttony being one of bulimia, dysmorphism and grotesque, demonic appetite complete with the least savoring parts of consuming things. The way I wrote some revelations still includes the fact that overindulging isn't only about food, and those are easy to adapt for a more general thematic. I hope you will enjoy the other mysteries, who will better represent their dedicated sin as they are more straightforward in their approach.

Onyemu >> the Greed and Wrath mystery are already available on the Homebrew forum. Sloth and Lust should come next when I get time. :)

Inspired by the 7 deadly sins, comes a mystery for NPCs and PCs consumed by a contagious, devouring hate.

Some people are born in misery, others in luxury, but the most unfortunate grow in a hateful environment. Whether it is hate toward the unknown, the different, a sworn enemy or the imaginary source of one's misfortune, oracles of Wrath find intoxicating power in anger and vile resentment, and they find true power in spreading this sentiment to divide and crush their enemies.

>>> Wrath, a new Pathfinder Oracle mystery ! <<<

I hope this option will bring something new and fun to your table, and am as always open to all your suggestions, critics and questions :)

- Brain-in-a-jar Maxximilius

Inspired by Dante's Divine Comedy, more precisely Inferno's Circle of Gluttony, comes a mystery for NPCs and PCs indulging too much in the pleasures of food, drinks and drugs.

Indulging in the consumption of whatever is within reach rather than spiritual introspection, oracles of Gluttony live with a ceaseless thirst, a devouring hunger for the unknown and the delicious. This unhealthy lifestyle would lead most to think it leads to a short but intense life, but to those touched by the divine, indulging only seems to fill a bottomless pit whose well becomes stronger and bigger with each bite, and numerous primitive civilizations see those oracles as heralds of prosperity that must be kept fed day long, lest the people itself shall suffer famine.

>>> Gluttony, a new Pathfinder Oracle mystery ! <<<

I hope this option will bring something new and fun to your table, and am as always open to all your suggestions, critics and questions :)

- Brain-in-a-jar Maxximilius

So :

My suggestion was allowing it to work on things other than weapons, so magic rings, headbands, or ornate belts. Effectively, it disarms an enemy of a single magic item slot. Don't know if that makes it too powerful, but it's certainly a very unique debuff to impose. Fort-save for half damage might do as a better save.

It already works on anything explicitely made of precious metal ;)

@chaoseffect > In order of your questions and suggestions :
- No, it cannot be sundered, it's a magical effect that grants armor bonus, much like mage armor.
- Good points and good ideas. Actually, I thought about your suggestion when writing this revelation, but came to the conclusion that characters who refuse bribery or would even put your butt in jail for attempting it would not be fooled even if I were to write some kind of ability bonus for it... depending on the way it would be designed, it would either mean being able to heavily influence the may NPCs react to you by throwing gold around without much consequences ; having a skill-win-button by spending ressources ; or having a weak power that does not really fit the thematic I wanted to hit - neither stroke me as interesting, so I wrote it so your character would have to find a way round bribing before actually benefiting from it. This way it remained interesting to see how you can roleplay your way around the situation and land a more satisfying jackpot later. Your suggestion makes a lot of sense, so I rewrote the ability to fit both objectives. :)
- The separate abilities didn't seem like they would be worth investing in a revelation on each... though I can see Ms. Pleiades's and your point. I nerfed both abilities to make them fit more naturally in a single revelation.
- I added a cool bit about Lust For Wealth that will justify the low amount of daily uses ;)
- Slight boost to the ability, but I maintain it pretty much as it is for it is a lifesaver much more than other revelations who are more straightforward for combat situations. Being able to actually avoid conflict beforehand or win opportunities back is really valuable.
- Nerfed final revelation to be more thematic.

Finally, you didn't strike me as "too critical", I enjoy all critics, especially when they are this constructive ! Thanks again for your time.

When I get some time, I might get around writing revelation for all other 6 deadly sins, complete with an archetype to be Oracle of Sins able to pick among all these revelations at high personal cost... :D

I'll answer a longer message later this day for all your advices, but I'd like to say that my design philosophy has always been to bring cool, effective but balanced options allowing for a wide range of gameplay styles and options. Picking powers should be a "hard" but rewarding task based only on what nice ability you want your character to receive and how fun to use and roleplay those powers will be, rather than finding which are actually worth your time. Said revelation may seem on the weak side, but it will litterally save your butt more than you'd want to believe, especially in roleplay heavy campaigns.

I don't believe in trap options that are a loss of time for everyone, fun for everyone around the table and lots of roleplay opportunities is my way to go. :)

Kamenhero25 -> the ability is intended to work as per the spell for the purpose of its actual effect on a target, but otherwise, it is more restricted : it can only use valuable items as a focus, and the target does not receive the normal +4 bonus like the spell - instead, some creatures have either a penalty, a bonus or immunity against this ability, depending on the character's ability to deduce what´s most valuable to his enemies. So, no +8 bonus. I'll make it clearer as soon as I get home. :)

Ms. Pleiades -> to deal damage, Goldeneye only works on precious metals. It would not act as a burning disarm unless you wield a silver, cold iron, mithral or adamantine weapon. In my personal experience, those are not common in a typical low-to-mid level adventuring party besides mithral as armor, but considering it´s a standard to initiate and a move action to maintain within a melee danger area, I'll add a Fortitude saving throw for half damage, and limit its use to 1 round per day per character level, keeping the metal detection.

About the Capstone, it doesn't stack with Divine Protection since you cannot stack same type bonuses, but I'll make the skill check 1/day (and admittedly, level 20 balance has never been a concern for the Pathfinder system. As long as it strong, thematic and doesn't break the game, let´s roll with cool powers that will never replace a 9th level spell anyway).

Very good points. Although don't forget divine spells have no ACP, and light armor/mithral plate (which you would favor with Dealer's Grace for their high Dex bonus) do not reduce the base speed. I think the issue here is really with very high Charisma modifiers stacking.

I changed Bling Armor from "Cha as armor bonus" to "+4 armor bonus to AC" with a possible +1 bonus at 3rd level and every 3 levels later if the character uses enough riches to produce the Bling Armor, and a max Dex modifier of +4, 1 every 5 levels later.

- Your 12th level character using the Greed mistery would have +6 max AC from Charisma, and up to +7 from the armor if you spend 9000gp and two revelations - so 23 AC with heavy investment (not counting shield and other protective items).
- A same level oracle of Nature with a celestial chainmail and 1 revelation could have +7 from the armor and +8 from Charisma - so 25 AC with heavy investment (not counting shield and other protective items).

Thanks again for your review.

Thanks for your suggestions, RumpinRufus.

Actually, the Bling bonus was originally the same as the Bones/Wood revelation : a free, finite armor bonus of +4 becoming +6 at lvl 7, then adding DR at higher levels.

Dealer's Grace is just a rewrite of two existing revelations from Lore and Nature mysteries allowing you to swap Cha to Dex for the purpose of AC.

Stacking "twice" Charisma to AC may seem strong at first glance, but I invite you to consider a second look and note that Bling is actually strictly worse than the original revelation it is based on :

- to gain a relevant bonus, you need high Charisma (admittedly not a valid limit for an Oracle... but let's take a look at the amount required as the balancing factor : even with a 18 modifier, so a high average for low to mid levels, the best you can get is +4, the equivalent of a chainmail, and also the exact same bonus granted by a mediocre 1st level revelation)
- to enhance your armor further, unlike the original revelation, you actually need to carry "unused" riches, with all the risks involved with walking around as a living target to thieves
- said revelation and riches could also be emulated by just... wearing armor. The kind oracles are proficient with.

The only thing this combo allows is for low Dex and low Str oracles to have decent AC in combat and hold their own, at the expense of carrying capacity, awful damage potential, skill checks, vulnerability to ability damage and picking two whole revelations just to make it work. Is it good for its niche ? Yep, it was designed for it (actually, for a morbidly obese NPC almost unable to move who's also the greediest, richest man on the continent but is supposed to have weird divine powers granted by a greed devil).
This combo is also very unecessary for more balanced characters, because any optimized oracle could just pick a medium armor they are proficient with, a light shield and roll on without wasting two whole revelations.

I notice I forgot to mention the oracle cannot wield shields when using Dealer's Grace though, I'll make sure to mention it so that the numbers never add up to said vanilla-oracle-in-armor-and-shield.

Hi everyone, it's been a long time I didn't write some homebrews... but here is something I hope you'll love ! :)
Inspired by Dante's Divine Comedy, more precisely Inferno's Circle of Greed, comes the perfect mystery for slimy NPCs your players will love to hate, and greedy PCs your DM will love to submit to temptation.

Full of envy for the wealthy and curiosity towards the power that can drive the wisest men and women mad for riches, most oracles of Greed find solace in the shiny reflection of gold, cherishing the power they buy enough to inspire a kind of respect even among the foulest dragons. Those oracles often begin their life in extreme poverty or wealth, and are quick to money they revelations, visions and spells to the highest or most desperate bidder.

>>> Greed, a new Pathfinder Oracle mystery ! <<<

(Fellow roleplayers here who never saw my previous works, know that you can find much, much more options in my profile.)
I hope this one will bring something new and fun to your table... I know my DM will soon use this one for a big baddy that's sure to surprise and disgust my group !

- Brain-in-a-jar Maxximilius

I hope you'll love it !
Feel free to ask if you got any questions about this supplement :)

... what class do you have in mind ? ;)

Too much vanilla class variants ?
Discover more flavorful options fit only for the most renegade aventurers !

Hi everyone,

Long time no see... but I have been keeping my eyes on a project, and working on it whenever I could find some freedom of mind and inspiration to do a great work.
I wrote The Secrets of Renegade Archetypes last year, and following its success, I'm now proud to present to you The Secrets of Renegade Archetypes II !

The Secrets of Renegade Archetypes II gives you - yes, you guessed it - even more new archetypes for the most popular base classes created by your favorite 3rd Party Publishers, allowing you to make the most out of the most radical and revolutionary designs available for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. (It includes brains in jars, metroid inspiration, tyrannosaur barbarians and tactical swashbucklers who fight with mobility and taunts. Seriously, get this.)

The classes (and their archetypes) supported by this product are as follows:

I hope you’ll enjoy it !

- Benjamin “Maxximilius the Brain-in-a-Jar” Rombeaut

Brain in a jar = LIKE.

WANT.

Drop everything else and do that now.

*Cough*

As always, I hope you will love it :)

My condolences to his family and friends. :(

Life as an evil mastermind ruling over the feeble minds of walking meatbags feels awfully good. Knowledge itself has a delicate taste that you could only begin to experiment the day your tongue is forcefully disconnected from your spine. The iodized electricity that runs around my jar is a permanent call to ecstasy, prompting synaptic fireworks that show me the deepest secrets and rules of the universe.

... god I miss my body.

Er... no. As a general rule of thumb when it comes to archetype design, you are supposed to swap like for like. That's what every designer has said when asked for advice on building archetypes. Sometimes it's Ok to swap it for something else, but you should try not to increase it's overall power.

When doing an archetype, you actually increase its overall power, at least when focused on a single gaming style or build... and few characters focus in several fighting or adventuring styles anyways, since doing a single thing really well means you are more useful 80% of the time and you will have a much harder challenge the remaining 20% compared to the vanilla class which always tends toward more versatility and balance than archetypes. The Cognatogen/bombing alchemist is clearly superior to the vanilla alchemist damage-wise, but he is also much more reliant on a damage source that can be easily negated or resisted against : bombs.

The Lore Warden can deal damage just as well as the basic fighter can, and it's also better than the Fightr at all combat maneuvers. If he does it right, he'll have nearly the same AC as the Fighter, more skill points, and more combat potential.

The fighter still rules AC and damage over the Lore Warden, especially if put against target resistant to his maneuvers. While strong and much more interesting to play, I find the Lore Warden strikes a nice balance between a lot of meh archetypes for a class that already needs all the help it can get at mid-to-high levels.

Some time ago, I wrote a full set of grit-like powers for fighters, granting cool abilities covering pretty much any type of weapons you could fight with as a fighter : general, circumstancial, and weapon-based abilities (mounted, ranged, shield, free hand, two-handed...).

We tested them in our group and it granted a much needed touch of heroism and tactical insight when playing a fighter ! I think the class would benefit from such a feature, much like gunslingers have grit and deeds.

I was wavering about competence bonuses but decided to err on the side of caution.

As far as I can tell Dodge bonuses don't apply to CMD naturally.

Adding the bonus to trip and dirty trick makes sense to me, so I'll probably add that when/if I use it.

I didn't want to make it too powerful given that the prereqs are so light.

Rulebook :

"Miscellaneous Modifiers

A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD."

Drunken Monk Style

Pretty cool and nicely balanced, I like the idea of switching between two stances and having wild pikes of efficiency when doing so.

Just a bit on the weak side IMHO. (I would have granted the dodge bonus as a morale bonus to all attack rolls with the base offensive style (competence bonus means it doesn't stack with bardic performance, which badly hurts a class relying on a lot of attacks), along with a defensive option to double it for one round instead. No bonus to CMD as dodge bonuses already apply to your full CMD.
Second style feat would remain the same ; last style feat too, except for the CMD bonus simply being the +2 dodge bonus to AC added to trip and dirty trick maneuvers.
This way it's a fair alternative to Weapon Focus at low levels considering Dodge is already a pretty weak feat tax, and it keeps relevancy at higher levels.)

The Drakker makes reference to the Mounted Heroism feat... but i cant actually find such a feat. What is it?

Hi Alexander,

I hope you enjoy the book ! Mounted Heroism is a Dragon Rider feat in the 101 Renegade Class Feats supplement which basically allows you to switch places at lightning speed with a helpless creature in close range when mounted on your draconic steed.
The ability you are mentioning means a drakker with this feat can use it anytime by taking the place of said creature as if he was mounted, even though the drakker is technically both rider and steed at once in a single character. Instead of being the Dragon Rider's pet though, you're the cool one taking blows for damsels and princes in distress.

The feat was mentioned to show the intended compatibility and synergy between Steven D. Russel's previous 101 Renegade Class Feats and this supplement. Ideally, I wanted this supplement to blend perfectly with any other of the Renegade series and bring only new ideas, while retaining the great value of already available rules. Likely, the other archetypes in this supplement can use their class-dedicated feats from "101" (armiger, etc.).

The future Secrets of Renegade Archetypes II will follow the same logic. ;)

Caradwen: if you go the archery route, you'll first need the Arcane Strike feat. This feat alone will increase your damage by +1 per arrow, then +2 at 5th level, then +3 at 10th.
Then you need to increase your amount of attack rolls with Rapid Shot and spells like Allegro - so at 4th level, you'll be looking for 3 attacks/round while hasted + inspiring courage, so a base 1d6+2 going to 1d6+5 at 5th level with a +1 weapon.

But with stats like yours I'm afraid you'll have a hard time feeling efficient in combat. Arcane duelist wouldn't help much, especially if it breaks the character concept.

Weird words is an incredibly potent damage-dealing option - you'll be looking a 6 attacks dealing each 1d8+Charisma modifier on a hit. Each of them is treated as a ray that deals typed damage reduced by DR, so Arcane Strike would work too since rays are weapons. Only problem is this ability comes at 6th level, and by the time you'll have specialized in archery maybe (unless you don't take Rapid Shot and Manyshot at all).

/Says the argument is gargabe but just proves it anyway by confirming the summoner is OP and the synthesist must be dealt with through cheap tricks like Antimagic Field in order to be balanced.

There is so much wrong in this thread. I could insert a long rant, but I'll not follow the ass wagon and just remember people reading this that all your arguments and those of synthesist defenders since the beginning of this thread can be resumed to:

- "my opinion is better than yours"
- "I'm so much better and more imaginative than everyone else, because unlike you I am willing to deal with broken rules..."
- and "... even though my way of dealing with the balance of broken rules is by castrating the characters using them by removing their class feature on a failed saving throw/making them useless with a spell/putting the player against something even more broken to teach them a lesson/making my BBEG immune to them/killing them in their sleep".

I don't need to justify myself or defend the skills of my group's DM ; neither do other people who just like us ban the synthesist.
Keep having fun. I'll just move away and enjoy the common pleasure that we will never play in each other's games.

Guys, guess what, the regular summoner can give his eidolon hp AND cast rejuvinate eidolon on top of that. Hence making your entire argument that synthesists are overpowered to be complete garbage.

Nope, it just proves the summoner itself is even more powerful. I hope you at least recognize that just because you will burn your hand in a 200°C liquid does not mean it is COMPLETE GARBAGE to suppose a 150°C liquid can be pretty hot as well. Also, I was hoping thinly veiled condescension could stay far away from this thread after the first page.

But back to the topic: a vanilla summoner himself can at least be targeted more easily in order to challenge him without resorting to cheap tricks based on totally negating its powers or utterly screwing the player. And while it is both a potent damage dealer and spellcaster, it remains less powerful than a dedicated class, unlike the synthesist who overshadows barbarians and fighters in a pinch. Hence : more versatility, yet better balance.

"Short of a walking wall that does little damage"

You'd be surprised how damage can stack nicely when you TWF with a fighter, especially when you get to 11th level and spam Bashing Finish with your main 15-20 scimitar.

Or hey, if you want a high AC monk, try a snapping turtle Tetori : a 20 Wis/16 Dex grants you 10 + 5(wis) + 3(Dex) + 3(monk with robe) + 4(bracers of armor) + 4(barkskin) + 2(deflection) + 2(shield) + 4(with a Ki point) = 37/25/22 AC.

For that matter, explain how any class short of a walking wall that does little damage can have a 40 ac at lv 10.

10 + 5 (+3 Light bashing shield w/Shield Focus) + 13 (+4 Full plate w/Defender of the Society trait) + 2 (natural AC amulet) + 2 (Deflection ring) + 3 (Dexterity).

= 35/15/32 AC.
Up to 38/15/35 with a +4 Heavy shield.

Add in fighting defensively for +3 to AC, up to +6 with a Halfling (small sized + racial feat) :

= 38/18/32 AC. (41/21/33 halfling)
Up to 41/18/35 (44/24/36 halfling) with a +4 Heavy shield.

So, I was wondering.

What happens if a creature provokes an attack of opportunity by attacking you, and you disarm that creature before its attack is resolved ?

- The attack continues but the creature must now perform its results with an unarmed strike (or gauntlet, if any)
- The creature's attack is lost but it can continue its round as normal

Thanks for the honor of suggesting my name Endzeitgeist, especially by including me among so many talented big names of the industry !

I wonder what it would take to get Rich Burlew to put the Dashing Swordsman in this thing.

Incidentally, I may have some WIP for Dreadfox Games's great Swordmaster class in The Secrets of Renegade Archetypes II. Something based on Charisma and awesomeness...

Yes it does actually : "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.".

I brought Haste in because Titania suggested that the synthesist's elemental attacks shouldn't be nerfed if all other characters using elemental attacks aren't.
To which I replied that the same level optimized synthesist typically hits twice as often, and the weapon enhancement actually sucks for everyone else, so no, because the evolution takes a nerfhammer doesn't mean every other poor sap already sacrificing efficiency for style should be screwed.
That's like wondering "oh damn, this character triple wielding keen falchions hits hard" then answering "let's ban all falchions for everyone instead of making it so that this specific class build actually cannot triple-wield them".

haruhiko88 wrote:

My group has been trying to tackle summoners for a while and one of the biggest house rules that we use is that special attacks, like poison, rake, and energy attacks, count against the maximum number of attacks. I know this "cripples the eidolon" according to our groups minmaxer but it makes a lot of sense and reigns in some of the power.

As long as you do the same with a warriors energy weapons sure that works...

Or you can actually work with a summoner and come up with something fair.

Sure. Everyone knows a flaming weapon you swing up to twice per round is gamebreaking and should be nerfed as hard as the one using it 4/5 times per round before the haste at the same level.

Dreadfox Games's Swordmaster has a pretty awesome mechanic similar to deeds : the Dex/Int class knows specific actions that it may perform in combat and gains more of them as it levels. Basically each round, he may spend his round's action to start a customized combo out of openers/chain/finishers melee moves activated with different conditions and actions.

That's pure love for skilled players and pretty much what everyone wants the swashbuckler to feel like. It's like having a class with only deeds that can be used together in differents fashions and actually synergize together, allowing for highly mobile fights.

And going back to your previous post on Cha-INSTEAD-of-Wis-to-WIll saves, I would like to hear your thoughts on why you would take Wisdom out of the equation. Also, keep in mind I will be throwing the "But replacing Str with Dex for damage apparently marginalizes Str too much" point back at you if you cannot sell me on why making Wisdom add to nothing but skill checks is a reasonable option. At least Str would still be needed to carry a sword and get to PA. I'm all for making Charisma more desirable, but having a stat with almost no penalty for tanking (sort of like Charisma now) does not seem like a good idea to me.

- Because the swashbuckler as written badly needs a dump stat to become less MAD

Since I want the classes I play to not be incredibly MAD, to have mechanics fitting their thematic, to actually feel like the way they are supposed to be, and plainly be awesome, I rhknk you'll unserstand the fil rouge behind my mind on objective AND subjective reasons to make Wisdom a Swash dump stat the same way I want my gunslingers to have accute senses ans son't want my barbarians to be intelligent.

I still think its incredible that anyone sees this class as being inherently dex based in any way.

Why? Because it only gets light armor proficiency? Because it gets weapon finesse?

I mean, I can just grab armor proficiencies right? I cab precise strike my heavy pick wielded in two hands and power attack away.

With a 12 dex and a 5 charisma, my dwarven "swashbuckler" is a very effective fighter.... it hits like a truck, has all the same panache tricks and the same panache pool as any SB with a charisma less than 14. Its AC will be just fine in full plate...

I mean is that okay? Why is it that this is not only a good build, but a build that hands down beats the dexterous swashbuckler in every area except a few skills?

... because we think of what we'd like in a swashbuckler in the final version, not the current one, which has already been proven to miss what the class should ultimately feel like.

The swash needs to be primarily Cha and Dex based, though we should be able to play off PA or Dervish Dance or a rapier and a buckler or TWF or a pickaxe without being crippingly gimped one way or another.
(And if -really- the final version misses the mark, well, there is still the 3pp Swordmaster for everyone not playing PFS since it seems to be so fun and versatile to play.)

So I guess you were just trading them out because they are too weak? Because it sounds like replacing CHA for WIS on Will saves would also work against charms... Quite frankly, I would rather see Cha and Wis added to Will saves so that I'm not rewarded for tanking Wisdom the same way I am currently rewarded for tanking Charisma. Take away the Wis bonus to saves and you will see a lot of Wis 7 swashbucklers.

Way to shorten my whole argument into fallacies - you may note I was the first to post in this thread, in between I put quite some time explaining what I'd like out of a swashbuckler, that includes recognizing the class needs better ST (my suggestion : Will as a low save but using Cha as its bonus and Ref-swap, more about this later)

To answer your question:
Nope, I'd like the Cha-replacing-Wis-to-Will bonus to apply :

- on all saves if this a stand-alone ability and the swash has low will progression (solving some issues at mid-to-high level and making Cha more important)
- my favorite option : Cha on all saves except charm and illusion if will is low progression ; the swash also receives a Reflex-instead-of-Will/Fortitude savig throw mechanic fueled by Panache against offensive effects targetting him. This option greatly improves Will saves against major SoD/SoS offenders while playing on the thematic weaknesses of a swashbuckling character, also rewarding high Cha. It also grants major life-saving abilities by allowing you to dash out of the path of spells targetting you/dodging the poisoned blade just fast enough to live and be awesome another day, favoring high Dex and playing on the class's best saving throw in a cool twist since the "worst" save can become the best for an instant (totally in line with a swashbuckler reversing the odds at the most climatic moment - it could even be balanced to "as many panache you can spend in the day" by allowing spells to target another creature if the swash dodges them.

But even with the second option, I wouldn't want additional bonuses against what I feel are thematic weaknesses for the class, the same way a cumulative bonus to Fort would be lame for a wizard.

Considering how it went in previous playtests, and since the designers's job is to design things (not read the boards and copy-paste the suggestions from people that may or may not at all get the concept of balance or theme right), I'd say the more we try to write the thing ourselves, the least the final result will deliver to our expectations.

Just consider one of the only things we know about the future playtest version : people complained about Parry/Riposte being both "weak", "too random", "much too hard to use" and "requiring a feat just to use it".
We know one of the investigated solutions is to solve the whole "I can't riposte at 1st level" issue by technically nerfing the deed so instead of requiring "1 point of panache + a successful incoming attack + a successful opposed attack of opportunity roll + 1 point of panache + Combat Reflexes + an additional attack of opportunity", it will now require "1 point of panache + a successful incoming attack + a successful opposed attack of opportunity roll + 1 point of panache + Immediate Action"... on a class that draws its damage potential and cool trick from having Panache and using swift actions. So you must have at least 16 Cha just to be sure to deal relevant damage on your riposte if by miracle you get to meet the whole prerequisites chain before you get the chance to riposte. I'm sure this is only part of the intended fixes for the deeds as a whole, but alone, this information seems like applying a band-aid on a open fracture because this way you won't bleed out anymore.

I trust Paizo for the job, but I honestly get the feeling than the most we point toward cool deeds and ask for improvement in the others, the most we'll get the cool deeds leveled down to a lower bland baseline for the sake of simplicity.

I think some of us have major divergent opinions on what the swashbuckler should be and feel like.

I've seen suggestions to add bonuses to saving throws against Charm and Alcohol/Drugs/Poisons, for example - but I must object to this idea. I have to say that if it was implemented, I would immediately ignore these bonuses and even swap them if possible for an archetype.
To me, a swashbuckler is all about getting in trouble... yet swarming its own way out with agility, precise cinematic swordplay involving taunts, dirty tricks and feints, moving enough to avoid the strikes of big brutes, and using the sheer strength of its personality.

A swashbuckler SHOULD get drunk, charmed, easily influenced and reckless enough to get involved in dangerous situations ; because that's what makes fun and interesting things happen, and cool/daring abilities being used.
He shouldn't get dominated or downed in a single SoD/SoS spell though - this would be highly anticlimatic and not fit well the whole daredevil persona.

(Hence why I suggested Cha-instead-of-Wis to Will saves to represent the strength of personality ; and a limited amounts of daily Reflex saves instead of Will and Fortitude saves to represent the slippery bugger.)

But again, let's just wait for the next playtest document. As of now the swashbuckler is one of the coolest ACG classes but it still needs some tinkering.

e. The GM/the player doesn't allow/play a Synthesist in a party with average characters, unless he specifically knows the system well enough to keep in check the power level around what the other damage dealer is doing each round.

So let me get this straight:
We have:
1 highly optimized and effective character.
3 poorly optimized and ineffective characters.

Are we supposed to be surprised that the optimized character is outshining them? Hell no, why would we be?

Here, try this, DOMINATION SPELLS.

If the OP feels that his current issue is a powerful character then he should act accordingly and find ways to remove the character with some form of crowd control or dominations. This, by virtue of him being unable to act, allows them all to shine.

So telling a player he should remove his crazy OP character for the sake of everyone's fun around the table is BADWRONG unimaginative noob GMing ; but screwing him in any possible fashion by using the cheapest tricks in the book to prove you can win (it's black friday, dominate, coups de grâce, banishment and negative levels for everyone !) anytime you want is proof of imagination and good DMing ?

Yeah. Sure. It's so balancing and fun to get from "crazy OP" to "dead or killing his party" in a single turn.

I'm going to come at this from a different angle:

You might try starting a new game, from first level, with only base character classes until your group gets a better handle on the rules. I'm saying this because at 10th level, no one in your group seems to know which magic items and spells can stack together, and that kind of mistake will completely break the game. It will be especially frustrating to you as the GM because the monsters and NPCs are designed assuming that the players are following those kinds of rules.

^ So much this. The system can get complicated enough not to begin with Advanced Classes.

- Don't allow the Summoner for newbies.
- Utterly ban the Synthesist, unless the one playing it is the rules lawyer who sincerely wants his playing mates to have fun with the game.
- Ban Metamagic Rods.

Let's just wait for the next playtest guys, I think there have been more than enough suggestions already, and the issues we know need/will be granted revisions have been highlighted enough that we can hope they will be taken into account.

No need to continue filling with thread until the next playtest pdf unless we have playtest experiences to share (I don't, because as indicated in the first 100 messages, I got stuck way too many times when trying to simply BUILD a character).
By the way, I've seen a lot of playtesting including right off-the bat a lot of houserules and multiclassing. While this reflects the class's issues, I don't think that's the most valuable output for testing the class itself as it currently stands - not that I'm complaining for this input which is much more than I did myself since I didn't play the class myself, considering I couldn't even build a character to begin with.

Issues with precise strike aside, if you are against dex to damage, let's hear your voice.

No dex to damage.

Already said it a thousand times, but I'd rather keep Precise Strike and have cool abilities to match damage and synergize with critical hits - especially for non-conventional weapons. There are tons of ways to make Dex and Cha more important without adding it do damage.

• At Xth level, a Swashbuckler adds his Charisma modifier to saving throws versus Charm effects.

Silly, a swashbuckler always fails againt charm effects by design !

Similar things have already been suggested.

By me, for one. : )

The idea was that it's like Power Attack, except:-

• a class ability, not a feat
• not Str-based
• scales with levels of swashbuckler, not generic BAB
• multiplies on a crit
• scales at +1/2, or at +3/4 (like 2HF) if using single weapon

Lol yeah, so basically I stole it without even knowing it, sorry !

Here is a comment: Can i still buy 13 STR and use Precise Strike, Tactical Power and regular Power Attack? Also, Power Attack is almost a feat tax for melee characters anyways since it seems they all take it at some point. Rather than give Swashbucklers a free version (or stackable) why not give them a class ability to use DEX as a replacement for the pre-reqs of combat feats? err... are there are other combat feats that have a STR requirement? mind blanking...

Sure. The idea would be to make it so that you don't need to pick Power Attack at all. The wording makes it possible to still pick it though.

You could absolutely pick Str and PA and still use a precise thrust - though you would have a reduced precision damage bonus when wielding your weapon in two hands and thus a reduced tactical damage output.

6th level, 20 Dex, +1 rapier in one hand, tactical hit (-2/+6):
+10/+5 ; 1d6 + 6(Pre) + 1(Mag) + 6(Tactical) = 1d6+7(+6) 15-20x2

6th level, 20 Dex, +1 scimitar in two hands, PA + tactical hit (-2/+4):
+8/+3 ; 1d6 + 3(Pre) + 1(Mag) + 6(PA) + 4(Tactical) = 1d6+11(+3) 15-20x2

=> The PA build deals 4 more damage for -2 to attack (exactly the balance of PA !) ; he would still need 13 Str and 1 feat AND 1 panache for this attack roll, meaning he would be less versatile in other areas. This bonus damage can be multiplied on a crit, making the deal even more of a high-risk/high-reward style for brute swashbucklers.
Note that he could offset some penalties by THing the first attack of his round then one-handing the remaining attacks (great incentive for longswords and dueling swords here). Also, the braggard archetype variant would have more use out of this feat.

This way it's balanced for mini-maxers and newbies alike because it's both simpler, stronger against low AC yet less abusable.

No comment on my "Swashbuckler's tactical Power Attack/Precise Strike" suggestion ? Damn, and I thought I was being clever today.