Kaerishiel Neirenar

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Goblin Squad Member. 3,606 posts (12,327 including aliases). 4 reviews. 14 lists. No wishlists. 111 aliases.


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Thanks for the break-down, Claxon, and for the pointers, DMW & Cap'n!

Are there any options to manually gain a skill increase outside the ones granted at odd levels? Feels like something there might be a skill feat for, but I'm not seeing anything...

Every sword and possibly every knife I've ever purchased came with a scabbard or a sheathe. It seems silly and pedantic to clutter up a character sheet with things we would naturally assume a character has. "Clothing" is a single entry, but we can well assume it includes whatever pieces are necessary to fully clothes someone, we don't list socks, pants, shirt, and undies separately unless they are noteworthy in some way.

The GM can keep the 1cp if they like, and I'll keep the clutter off my sheet.

I'll need to see if that site grows on me or not, the sidebar doesn't seem very phone friendly compared to the old Paizo-maintained site.

In any case, thanks for the linkage and the explanation of what's planned!

Been a while since I've frequented the site, but I was surprised to see that /PRD redirects to an outside site for 1E content now. Anyway, I was curious about if there are any plans to eventually host an official 2E PRD website. Will we see a site similar to the old one hosted and maintained by Paizo itself, is the preference to have a community-maintained site instead, or are there perhaps official apps planned for the Windows, Apple, and Android stores instead?

Given how the content of new 1E books was usually delayed from entry into the PRD for a release cycle or two (gotta eat & pay rent!), I'm assuming that if we do see a new PRD site, it may be a bit yet. Sill, I'm just wondering what timing we might expect, and/or what guidelines are relevant to any community go-getters who want to forge ahead with a wiki or other reference style site.

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After some character generation and leveling exercises Monday and tonight, my group identified what we feel would be a HUGE time-saver when it comes to creating and leveling characters. It would also make UTEML a lot more intuitive.

Here's a visual example of what we're proposing:
Preview Image


  1. First, make the Training Modifier for Untrained equal "0".
    Reasoning: If you are Untrained in a skill, then that means you have *zero* investment in it. If the modifier for Untrained becomes "0" instead of "-2", then not only is that more intuitive, but a lot of fill-ins and potential mistakes have been instantly eliminated.
  2. Second, move the TEML labels into the circles and place the modifiers above them.
    Reasoning: We can now see the Training Modifier and know to add it. But what about the Proficiency Modifier box you ask?
  3. Third, relabel the Proficiency field as "Level".
    Reasoning: Now that the Training Modifier is visible, calculating the Proficiency Mod is no longer a necessary step.
  4. Lastly, it's usually pretty easy to remember what character level you are without having to rewrite it 30 times. What if we wrote the word "Level" in light-grey text inside our new Level field?
    Reasoning: Players who don't get the hint could still write their level in this box, but for the rest of us, it would save 30 erasures per level-up!

With these changes, we would go from this:

  • Erase Proficiency Modifiers 30x
  • Erase Skill/Attack/Whatever™ Modifiers 30x
  • Recalculate & rewrite Proficiency Modifiers 30x
  • Recalculate & rewrite Skill/Attack/Whatever™ Modifiers 30x

To this:

  • Erase Skill/Attack/Whatever™ Modifiers 30x
  • Recalculate & rewrite Skill/Attack/Whatever™ Modifiers 30x

That's a pretty significant savings in both time and erasers. Also, by eliminating fully half of the calculation steps, we've eliminated dozens of potential opportunities for mistakes and typos.

Furthermore, at those special times where we actually get to increase our level of training, it will be a lot easier to appreciate the change since we would no longer be rewriting a Proficiency Mod on that line the same as every other as we presently do. :)

Restating from the preview, here's what this formatting change would look like for the Acrobatics Skill: PNG Image

Even if Paizo doesn't want to tweak the math slightly by making Untrained "0" and bumping the others up by +2 each, the other suggestions can still be implemented without the use of houserules — they are merely formatting changes, after all, and wouldn't modify the rules or math one bit! In that event, we'd simply add a "U bubble" for Untrained and put "-2" above it. :)

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Just ran my group thru Session 0 last night (link), and our Rogue was very nearly brought to tears as well. It took them 4 hours to finish creating their character, and a good 2-3 hours for everyone else.

Mind you, the biggest issue we ran into was ability score generation. That ground everything to such a halt and was so incomprehensible that I'm flat-out shocked that your group enjoyed it! O_o;

I ran my group thru our Session 0 last night (Aug 13), and since I'm concerned that we may not be able to complete Chapter 1 of Doomsday Dawn before the 26th, I at least want to give feedback on some pain points we encountered that should be relatively easy to remedy. These are chiefly in regards to rulebook layout for character creation (especially Ability Score generation), and to how existing fields on the Character Sheet can be tweaked to decrease complexity, and speed-up character creation/leveling...

For the sake of reference, I'll be spoilering how the actual session itself went in case you want to skip directly to our recommendations.

In preparation for the evening, I spent the better part of a week chopping up the rulebook with Acrobat Pro to make separate print-outs of each ancestry and class (photo), and to cobble together info packets for each player in the ABCDE format (Ancestry, Background, Class, Details, Equipment). This meant was to minimize rulebook contention (we had only 2 hardcopies), and to ensure we didn't end up with any duplicate ancestries or classes.

Packets were printed on 11x17 ledger paper in landscape format so players could see facing pages from the rulebook in one view, and I did my best to consolidate similar info onto the same sheets. This info included:

Sheet 1: Doomsday Dawn character creation rules & backgrounds, facing a consolidated Languages sheet. Reverse side were the facing pages for the rulebook backgrounds.
Sheet 2: Facing pages for the Deities. Reverse side was Armor, faced by Gear.
Sheet 3: Facing weapon tables. Reverse was weapon rules.

Lastly, there were plenty of character sheets and feedback/tracking sheets printed onto cardstock to endure the wear & tear yet to come. Naturally, snacks and drinks were also well-stocked.

Game Night:
We started off at 7:00pm by ordering carryout from the local Italian place. IME, good food guarantees a positive mindset. In total there were 5 players, plus myself as GM:
  1. Human Cleric: 5E DM who has played/DMed since D&D2E; character creation time: 2 hours
  2. Goblin Sorcerer: another 5E DM who has played/DMed since D&D2E; 3 hours
  3. Dwarf Alchemist: 5E player who has played since D&D2E; 3 hours
  4. Gnome Barbarian: 5E player who started with 4E; 2 hours
  5. Halfling Rogue: P1 player from my own P1 group who started with P1 in my group about 5 years ago; 4 hours
  6. P1 GM (me) who started with D&D2E, plays 5E with players #1-5, and runs a separate P1 game that includes player #5; "The Lost Star" Prep Time: 4 hours including VTT map preparation

Before heading out to retrieve dinner at 7:30pm, I gave the players a run-down on the fact that over the course of Doomsday Dawn, they would ultimately be making 5 sets of characters in total, and that the characters being made in Session 0 would star in chapters 1, 4, and 7. Likewise, I clued them in that the characters for subsequent chapters would have outdoors, clerical, crusader, and esoteric focuses respectively. This was to assure them that they needn't put all their character aspirations into a single PC, and that they'd be able to try out lots of different things. This really took the pressure off trying to agree on what ancestries & classes they should each pick since they knew they'd each get a turn to rotate thru various roles.

With the basics decided, and players understanding the contents of their packets, player #4 and I headed out to pickup dinner.

We returned by about 7:45pm to find that player #1 had finished just about everything but equipment, while the rest were still muddling thru ancestry and class feats. To be fair, this player had run thru most of the rules on their own on the drive back from GenCon. Sadly, all of the players got confused by the fact that I'd printed the rulebook backgrounds on the rear side of the Doomsday Dawn background/languages sheet. There maaay have been some calamity and consternation as they then had to redo the background portion of character creation. My bad! Thankfully, even with only 6 background to choose from, they were able to find new ones without too much trouble.

The biggest problems came when trying to generate ability scores. In hindsight, I should have made a worksheet (like the one I've linked below in our suggestions). However, it's still beneficial to the playtest that they had to evaluate this process based off the actual rulebook text rather than GM-prepared cliff-notes.

Simply put, the process was nigh well traumatic for those trying to figure it out on their own. After almost 2 hours, player #5 was on the verge of tears and I was at wits end trying to help them understand the process. I finally had to "tap-out" and let two other players assist. It took until almost 9:30pm before that player had their ability scores finished — which (IMO) is practically tragic.

Thankfully, the purchasing of equipment was a relative breeze thanks to the info packets, though a couple players were disappointed there were to pre-configured class kits they could purchase (something I myself was grateful for since I seldom use most of the stuff in said kits).

By 10:00pm, everyone but player #5 was done and ready to head home, so we never actually made it into the Ashen Ossuary. Player #5 was finished by 11:00pm and felt quite drained. Hugs were necessary before they headed home.

Ability Score Generation was Harrowing
Issue: Starting on page 11, the Character Creation Overview has partial info about how to create ability scores in far too many separate places. This actually confused my players more than if they'd simply leafed thru the book on their own. While I can understand the need to mention ability scores early on (since many steps influence these stats), it might be better to break out the "Ability Scores" subsection on page 12 into a sidebar rather than including them with the other fields to be filled-out under "orange bullet" #1. As it is now, since the "Character Sheet" instructions at the end of step #1 makes no mention of ability scores which leaves newbies scratching their heads rather than realizing your intended message of "plan ahead."

Suggestion 1: On pg 12, move "Ability Scores" out of Step #1 and into a sidebar.

Suggestion 2: On the reverse side of the 3rd page of the character sheet, include an ability score worksheet.
Example: Excel | PDF

Suggestion 3: Make Character Creation its own chapter, and revamp the Character Creation Overview from being a 6-page summary into 1-page outline.

  1. Format the Overview as a full-page sidebar similar to the optional rolled ability scores rules on page 21. This will help it stand out from the narrative portion of the chapter.
  2. Put a numbered list for the "orange-bullets" at the top, and the miniature annotated sheet at the bottom.
  3. In the outline, rather than having several paragraphs explaining each step, allow each "orange bullet" a 1-2 line entry along with the page number for the relevant rules.
Benefit: A 1-page overview with an annotated sheet would allow GMs to print copies of that page to hand-out at Session 0. Players would then have a more at-a-glance view of what to do with their character sheet and literally know where to turn. This sheet would also be a good time to reinforce the clever ABCDE theme you have going on (Ancestry, Background, Class, Details, Equipment).

Suggestion 4: The ability score walkthru on pages 19-20 really needs to be printed on facing pages in the final rules.
Benefit: A walk-thru should have its totality in-view at once for ease of reference without having to flip the page.

Calculating Proficiency Bonuses Can Be Streamlined
Issue: To a person, everyone got turned around on how to factor their proficiency bonuses on skills, attacks, etc.

Suggestion: The whole group was in agreement that each line should simply have a box where you write your level, and let the bonus confered by your degree of training be assumed by the TEML bubbles rather than needing to be written down.

Thankfully, this is more of a formatting change to the character sheets moreso than a rule change. Here's how to accomplish this without requiring any additional formatting space on the character sheet...

Implementation pt1: Split the proficiency bonus into its constituent parts: separate character level from the training bonus.
Benefit: Your level will change frequently, while your bonuses from training will be much more static. This will make leveling-up a character much faster and more intuitive as you will simply be incrementing your Level in the 30 places it appears on the sheet rather than having to re-calculate 30 Proficiency boxes. Similarly, since one's level of training doesn't change nearly as frequently as one's level, if the training bonus is tallied seperately, it's that much less often that you need to erase and change that value, and it will be a lot easier to spot where and when to update a modifier for that reason.

Implementation pt 2: Set Untrained a +0, Trained as +2, Expert +3, etc.
Benefit: While subtracting 2 from a number is childsplay in a classroom, doing so repeatedly during character creation just introduces needless work and makes the game more complicated than it needs to be. Subtracting 2 from something that you probably didn't invest in anyway isn't intuitive; if you have zero investment in a skill, then your modifier from your level of training should be 0, not -2. This small change would save quite a lot of confusion.

Implementation pt 3: Make the TEML bubbles more useful. Rather than simply having a blank bubble with the training letter above it, place the letter inside the bubble and have the corresponding bonus above it.[/b]
Example: PNG
Benefit: Players no longer need to remember what their training bonus should be for each skill, and that eliminates another potential source of mistakes. Instead of having to add Level plus Training Bonus into a single field 30 times, Level and Training Bonus now each have their own easy-to-read, easy-to-update fields, and we've significantly reduced the number of steps someone has to perform in-their-head.

Other Stuff™
Familiar Sheets: This gang really loves their casters, and at least 2 players ended up with a pet of some sort. While I suppose I can just print out their critters' stat blocks from the Bestiary, the players still need a place to write those stats down when it comes time to apply the additional buffs such creatures get for being a familiar or animal companion.

Spells Known: Player #2 stated that page 3 of the character sheet (spells) didn't make much sense to them. They were confused that it has areas for both preparation and spontaneous casting, yet he didn't see anywhere to denote how many spells known he has. Can't say I felt the same way when I made a bard during my own tests, but then I'm primarily a P1 guy and they're a 5E player. This should be clear for someone regardless of past experience guiding their hand.

Senses: On the front side of the character sheet, players need a line to denote what sort of vision they have and it's range.

Ability Scores: The players are unanimous in wanting the ability scores grouped by whether they are physical or mental. Since this is presented in two columns on the character sheet, one column should be Str, Dex, Con, the other Int, Wis, Cha. It just doesn't flow well when they are grouped across columns like they are right now.

Armor Class It's awkward having the armor proficiencies located so far away from the AC section. Also, while it's obvious to returning players, you should probably note that the lower of the two values for Dex mod or Dex cap should be the one that's tallied into AC and TAC.


By and large Session 0 was a success. The players are all excited, and we did have fun for the most part. There were complaints that character generation was even more complicated than P1, and especially so in comparison to 5E, but they did seem to like the greater variety of options than 5E offers.

That said, I'm somewhat alarmed that Doomsday Dawn will require so much character creation. If it took everyone in my group 2-4 hours, to make a level 1 character, how long it will take when they have to make new characters at level higher levels? Perhaps if some of the advice above is incorporated into hotfixes before Chapter 3 that will help, though I may just go ahead and design my own character sheet to incorporate things that are mostly formatting issues rather than game-design issues.

Anyway, hope this helps!

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No, not in the book as we're not going to need it years down the road, and that page space could be better used elsewhere.

However, a PDF detailing just this would be a nice idea, and mention of it in the book's Forward would take no more than about 1-inch of column space.

For example: "Returning Players: For an overview of what's new since 1st edition, please check paizo.com/2ndedition. There you'll find a list of changes, as well as a conversion guide for existing games and legacy material."

Uugh, so apparently the first day back to work after being out for a week due to an injury is NOT conducive to delving into the intricacies of new RPG whilst on-the-clock. ^_^;

Since I've not had time to build more than a single low-level character, I honestly can't ascertain if this will work for me or not. One of my major concerns is skills: maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like if you don't go with the rules-optimal correct class at 1st level then you're forever out-of-luck where signature skills are concerned lest (if Thievery/Rogue Dedication is any indicator) spend a minimum of 3 feats for each new signature skill you want (Dedication feat + 2 others to satisfy the Special condition before you open up another Dedication).

Also, if a character was to start as a Rogue and later find religion (Cleric Dedication), I don't see how it's possible to ever be a viable caster without sacrificing what seems like an unreasonable number of feat slots. Unfortunately, I don't have time to theory craft since I still need to prepare a dungeon for my Wednesday night P1E game.

So I'm on the fence at the moment. This new MC method seems more versatile for trying to gestalt multiple classes together, but less viable for when a character decides to totally switch focus without retraining away all of their past decisions.

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Add me to the list of people who are really upset to see that casters *still* have to prepare a single spell multiple times if they want to cast it more than once. I'm definitely one of those GMs who houserules that away at the very get go, and that was *before* P2 placed such drastic constraints on how many spells we get at each level!

Wow, that was fast! Thanks for taking such an active part in helping me comprehend this new method!

That said, it's going to take me a while to get thru all this, but there's a couple things that jump out at me...

  • She was actually 17th level, not 18th — mythic is... weird.
  • Substituting Rogue for Bard for the experiment sounds like a reasonable choice, though leveling her primarily as a Sorcerer isn't something I could see myself doing, she's too much of a skill monkey.
  • The Acolyte background sounds like a logical substitute for the Cleric level, though I'd be inclined to stick with Noble since it's more story-accurate even if sub-par mechanically. (As may be obvious, mechanical optimization was not my first priority with her.)
  • The BAB of +9 looks off. Using fractional base bonuses, I'm showing +12.5, which is only 0.5 behind a straight-classed bard.
  • As we've both acknowledged, her casting isn't RAW even by P1 rules, so the main interest is in seeing how close we can get her P2 casting to what would have been P1 RAW: Bard 9. Though FWIW, under the 3.5UA rules, it was at Sorc CL 12 rather than Sorc CL 10 (1 from Sorc, 9 from Bard, 2 from Monk). That translated to 6th level spells at just shortly after the same time a straight-classed bard would have gotten them.

Oof, just realized I'm about 2 hours late for bed when I've got work in the morning! I promise I'll examine this further tomorrow! :o

Thanks again!

So I believe we were using these rules from the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana for spellcasting:

As such, she cast spells as a Sorcerer (Arcane bloodline) but with Bard spells added to the list at the higher of the two class levels (if a spell common to both was higher level for one than the other). As a result, her effective caster level was a bit better than if she was strictly P1 RAW. However, that does introduce a bit of an apples to oranges problem I guess, huh? :-\

In terms of spell selection, most of her spells were based around breaking or bending rules moreso than flashy outward displays. So I don't think she had any evocation or conjuration spells beyond perhaps Spark or Grease. Instead most were based around Divination, Enchantment, and personal utility such as fly, invisibility, beast shape, air bubble... stuff that let her defy people's expectations of her, manipulate social encounters, and gather info or converse at long-distance. As such, she didn't use spells in combat too much save to buff allies (good hope, etc).

In terms of combat, she had her bard songs, and a domain ability called "Bit of Luck" that allowed allies to reroll all d20s and take the better results for that turn. So combined with a focus on improved feint, the crane wing style, combat reflexes, and her whip, she would concentrate on battlefield control, making enemies waste their attacks, and aiding allies to improve their efficacy.

Basically, she owned infiltration and social encounters and helped everyone else to shine in combat.

John Lynch 106 wrote:
Fair enough. I think the archetype multiclassing rules works particularly well in this case then (because you've got sufficient levels to get multiple multiclass feats).


John Lynch 106 wrote:
I was really only using Wizard as a placeholder class. My version doesn't work well in capturing an Occultist, because Occultists don't exist yet in PF2e. That's a limitation on a new edition rather than multiclassing itself. I'm specifically trying to see how the archetype multiclassing fails rather than failures because of a lack of content.

Yep, that's definitely fair, and a legit part of the reason I've haven't flipped any too many tables. ;)

John Lynch 106 wrote:
[Alis stuff] that's a GREAT example to show how limited the new multiclassing rules are (or aren't.

Ya know, I didn't even realize there was a hyperlink there until I clicked reply. I'll definitely be checking that out when I should be productive at work tomorrow! :D

John Lynch 106 wrote:

I may not get to it until Wednesday evening. But I'll definitely post up the results when I do it.

To help put me in perspective, I was 100% against archetype multiclassing. I've been won over for now because I've had success in using the system.

I appreciate the that actually. I stopped my anxiety meds about 2 weeks ago, so the reassurance is definitely appreciated! :)

John Lynch 106 wrote:
I want to explore what limitations exist in archetype multiclassing so we can tell Paizo what changes they need or whether they need 3.x multiclassing as well as archetype multiclassing.

For sure, better to address as much as possible now so that we don't have to either houserule everything or endure another 4E-style schism in the community.

extinct_fizz wrote:

I welcome the addition of more Muse options in further splat books; as it stands, I think the base three here are good ideas. It would be really, really cool to use the Muse selection to choose between the different class spell lists:

Lore --> Arcane
Maestro --> Divine
Polymath --> Occult
??? --> Primal

Oooh, I really like this idea! :O

extinct_fizz wrote:
I wish Versatile Performance got more powerful as it leveled (gaining other ways to use Performance checks in place of other Skill checks) but that is my own prejudice toward loving PF1e's Versatile Performance.

Right? P1's Versatile Performance was a skill monkey's dream come true!

John Lynch 106 wrote:
So that sounds like it's more of a conceptual background then a "unfolded during the campaign" situation.

Correct, Sindariel is a character that I'll get to start playing (using P1 rules) in about 2 weeks. The GM is having us start above 1st level, so I'm taking the opportunity to finally delve into a major NPC from my other character's (Alis Kirmoon's) actual play experience.

As for your suggested progression, Wizard is probably a better fit for a standard Occultist, but Bard would probably be closer for a Secret Broker and more thematically appropriate for a character who is a "Renaissance Woman". Still, as you say, some differences are to be expected between editions.

Now granted this doesn't seem too bad, but Sin' is a relatively simple example compared to Alis. How would you propose restatting her into P2E (if you don't mind)?

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Phantasmist wrote:
the majority of ancestry feats should be upfront at level 1 instead of spread out over 20 levels, I like to think we all deep down inside know this, but for some reason the folks making the game had a moment and simply forgot that it would be sensible to do so.

Agreed, while I *like* that it makes alternate racial traits much more intuitive to implement than P1's method of swapping things in and out, it would be nice to have better continuity with accepted lore for such traditional fantasy mainstays like elves and dwarves. The only way to do this as the ancestry feats are written would necessitate allowing multiple picks at 1st level.

For instance, when I look at the elf, it feels like Keen Hearing is of similar flavor to Keen Senses, Unwavering Mien to the sleep portion of Elven Immunities, Forlorn to the enchantment portion of Elven Immunities, Otherworldly Magic to Elven Magic, and Weapon Familiarity to the 1E trait of the same name.

As another example, half-orcs having the option to suddenly develop the ability to see-in-the-dark at 5th level just feels... bizarre. To me, this strengthens my feeling that characters should have access to more than 1 ancestry feat at first level, and perhaps that some feats should only be available at 1st level (much like heritage feats).

Now I realize that many of the 2E versions seem to be more powerful than their 1E counterparts, but it still feels like it dilutes the uniqueness of each ancestry too much having to select only a single one of those instead of a suite. Were these the final rules rather than a playtest, I would probably houserule that players could select 3 or 4 at first level.

That said, it makes me wonder if the current approach is Paizo's answer to allowing GMs some authority over the basic power level of their game.

How so?

Well remember in 3.5 and P1 how the method of setting the game's power level revolved around how big of a point-buy players were allowed? What if the small number of Ancestry and Class feats granted at first level is actually the equivalent mechanism for P2?

For instance, instead of screwing up the underlying math that balances everything the way a 25 or higher point buy often did, perhaps the designers intend for the number of feat selections allowed at first level to govern this.


  • Low Fantasy = 1 Ancestry Feat & 1 Class Feat @ 1st
  • High Fantasy = 2 Ancestry, 2 Class @ 1st
  • Epic Fantasy = 3 Ancestry, 3 Class @ 1st
  • Superheroes = 4 Ancestry, 4 Class @ 1st level

Near as I can tell, this wouldn't throw as much of a wrench into the inner-workings of the math the same as elevated ability modifiers. Instead, it would simply increase the complexity of the game since GMs and players would have to manage characters with more tools at their disposal.

IMO, this might be a viable way of letting some groups enjoy a simpler, more 5E-like experience, while letting others enjoy the "fantasy superhero" experience we've become accustomed to in P1... All without making the stats of NPCs and monsters in APs and Bestiaries as meaningless as they've often felt [to me] when using 25+ point buy PCs in a published adventure.


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McMaverick wrote:
By including this subsection in such an early chapter of the rulebook, all players who create a human are asked to at least consider, if not choose, their character's ethnicity during character creation. At least to me, this tactic seems counterintuitive to the stated goal of this new edition: "to make the game easier to learn and simpler to play, while maintaining the depth of character and adventure options that has always defined Pathfinder."

Agree 100%!

My understanding of the renaming of races to ancestries and the overall character creation process was that it should mirror the start of the alphabet like so:


To me, ethnicities would fall more naturally into Details. It would also help because I'm certain that in a world with many races that there are ethnic groups comprised of people of different species, etc. It would also fit well with the half-human concepts of children that are raised in a society that isn't the same as one of their parents, or for orphans/adopted children.

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Appreciate the effort, but why didn't you rotate it into landscape first before doing all that work? :o

If it helps for a subsequent revision, I performed the rotation of the original sheet in Acrobat Pro and removed the parchment background to save ink & toner:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t4c6ps5nskuj278/Character%20Sheet%2C%20Paper.pdf? dl=0

You're good, and you should FEEL good! Thanks!

Lady Melo wrote:
They need to front load classes a little heavier, I think this will actually solve some problems people are having with customization on low levels. Give every class more stuff at level 1, your are finally free from level dip shackles there is seriously no need to hold back. 2-3 more features/feats(especially choices that can be expanded as more content comes out) right off the bat to customize your class would be a strong selling point.

Not to change topics, but this is how I feel about Ancestries as well. It simply feels like ancestries and classes don't provide enough at the get-go to allow for parity with the "lore continuum" (if you will), or with existing characters we might want to reprise in the new edition.

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John Lynch 106 wrote:
OntosChalmer (and everyone else who wants 3.x multiclassing): Can you demonstrate what character you can't recreate with the current VMC-esque multiclassing?

OK, this is gonna be it I think. While it gives me a warm feeling recollecting all of this, it takes forever to recap! Hopefully these two examples help to illustrate where some of us are coming from. :)

Alis Kirmoon
Female Half-Elf
Cleric 1, Rogue 1, Sorcerer 1, Monk 5, Bard 9
Setting: Homebrew

Been playing Alis in different incarnations for about 25 years. Some early ones (D&D 2E) were straight bard, others were Gestalts. However, the one that rings the truest to my vision for her is as follows...

Twin sisters of elven and human royalty, Alis and Alexis were often mistaken as identical twins. However, where Alexis was ever the diligent and serious student of the arcane, Alis was more inclined towards curiosity and seeing what made people tick.

Initially, her parents thought to have her schooled in the wizardly arts alongside Alexis, but it soon became apparent that he magical talents were essentially improvised (sorcerer 1).

While the sisters' parents were across the Boundless Ocean establishing a new colony where even half-breeds like their daughters might know acceptance, they were left in the case of their elven uncle, a closet bigot and a secret invoker of diabolic arts. While the uncle deemed Alexis might make a compliant puppet someday, Alis' force of personality and meddling nature made her a liability. He sent her away to a temple for the controversial goddess of passion (think Calistria) in the hopes of making her into a useful bride for a political marriage that might remove a wrench from his machinations.

While Alis did learn a great many skills at the temple, she was resentful of the order that was foisted upon her and constantly found ways to follow her own path (rogue 1). Even still, by the time her parents returned and she was reclaimed by her mortified father, she had at least managed to retain a good measure of the priestess' ways, including their self-defense teachings (cleric 1, monk 1).

While her father was well-meaning in his indignation towards Alis' evil uncle. The shame she felt over his reaction to what she had been taught stayed with Alis for many years, and she kept such talents secret even from Alexis.

With only questionable skill in magic, the girls' mother suggested Alis focus instead on other talents. She was perceptive (particularly where people's emotions were concerned), athletic, and had a lovely singing voice. The path of a diplomat, or a role in the opera, were both plausible (bard 1).

[Note: That we used a form of multiclass casting (possibly from 3.5 Arcana Unearthed) that allowed her bard levels to improve her Sorcerer casting.]

It was no long after that tragedy struck. The girls' parents were seemingly lost at sea, and their uncle made his play to usurp their birthright. He staged a kidnapping to get Alis out of the way while receiving financial enrichment from a powerful crime lord who fancied a royal concubine. Thankfully, the unarmed training she had received years before now served Alis well. She fought her way to freedom in a foreign port (monk 2) only to end up press-ganged onto a pirate ship!

For some time, she was forced to keep her heritage secret as she built up alliances and esteem amongst her crew mates (bard 3), until she finally led a successful mutiny to seize command as Captain Wardove. With the help of her crew and allies sent by Alexis to search for her, Alis and company severely disrupted pirate operations in the area, acting as self-appointed privateers. They ultimately foiled not only her uncle's diabolic plans, but also the ambitions of the crime lord to which she had originally been promised. (bard 5)

Upon her return to civilization, the sisters organized a mission across the ocean to look for their parents. In the process, they uncovered many strange truths about the nature of their world, of magic, and of the gods themselves. (bard 7)

While the sisters' mission proved successful, upon their return home, they found their kingdom in ruins. A great red wyrm had laid waste to the elven capital, the king was dead, and their royal elven cousins were doing their best to hold the country together against diabolic forces their uncle had set in motion year before in his own bid to seize the crown. Fixing that took some work, but at least there was a time of peace afterwards. (bard 9)

Years later, a crisis developed in a state under the elven kingdom's protection. During civil unrest, the elven governor was brutally assassinated, and it seemed that civil war could erupt there at any time. Known by now for her competence, Alis was dispatched, yet echoes of her late uncle's allies were afoot. She and her retinue were forced to travel by circuitous means to avoid detection, only to be shipwrecked without supplies or gear on a lost island with an occult legacy. Once again, she had to rely upon her priestly training to persevere (monk 4).

Following their escape from the island, one of Alis' closest friends was able to help heal her heart over the shame of her religious training. She began to embrace it, and trained daily with her priestesses from the temple in the protectorate city that now served as the seat of her governorship. (monk 5) In fact, as the true demonic source of the unrest civil made itself manifest, she and her companions were even ordained by the goddess of passion herself to serve as her chosen in the coming battle for the fate of the world! (mythic dual-path archmage/trickster 1)

Aaand that brings us to the present!

(Oh, and yes... for those who are observant, the character I posted earlier, Sindariel, is Alis' spymaster.)

Xenocrat wrote:
I think summon monster is itself a versatile spell (choose from a menu of options) that can solve a variety of problems.

Well yes, there's a lot you can do with summon monster, but that seems kind of apples to oranges...

Versatile Performer with Summon Monster: "I'm good at using my force of personality and understanding of the mortal psyche to influence people and get what I want, now watch me pull a hell hound out of my hat!"

*record screech*

Versatile Performer with Charm: "I'm good at using my force of personality and understanding of the mortal psyche to influence people and get what I want, now watch as the king demands the warden set us free and embraces me like we're old friends!"

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Secret Wizard wrote:
If you still want to do it, houserule it away. But no reason why new adopters should be burdened with the extra pages to describe a very subpar mechanic that will cripple their characters unless they have a way to exploit the class budgets.

Well that comes across as a very rude and condescending suggestion. We're here trying to help make the next edition the best it can be and you just want to shut discussion down by being dismissive and telling people to houserule?

To be clear, for some of us, the single most important gateway for an RPG is whether or not it allows us to accurately represent the character we have in mind. If it can't do that, then it won't matter whether or not the combat mechanics are perfect or the magical system sublime.

In my case, the whole reason I stuck with Paizo instead of switching to 4E way-back-when, and why I chafe at having to roll-up a 5E character is because their character creation options sacrifice too much of the story aspects of a character in favor of the game aspects. That's all well and good for people who like that, but people have a pretty big range of reasons for wanting to play RPGs (rather than write novels), and the story vs game spectrum has players and GMs all over it.

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Errant: Ah ok, thanks for the clarification!

John Lynch 106 wrote:
OntosChalmer (and everyone else who wants 3.x multiclassing): Can you demonstrate what character you can't recreate with the current VMC-esque multiclassing?

Quite a time-consuming request, but fair I suppose. Not sure if I have time to write-up more than 1 or 2 of these though...

Sindariel Lammontari
Female Wood Elf
Unchained Rogue 3, Occultist (Secret Broker) 10
Setting: Waterdeep, Forgotten Realms
Full Pre-Game Backstory: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8gzjfq2w8sg0sv2/Background%20-%20GM%20only.docx?d l=0

Synopsis: Young elf girl from a noble wood elf family is intelligent and good at lots of things but has no real passions. She's not good with animals, has little interest in woodsy pursuits, but likes high fashion and is intrigued by arcane magic. Since wood elves disdain the arcane, they try hard to dissuade her. (rogue 1, lots of physical skills)

Ultimately, father decides maybe immersing daughter dearest in city-life will break her fascination. She's enrolled at the arcane university "Lady's College" in Silverymoon, where she soon discovered she doesn't have the same knacks as everyone else and becomes discouraged. (secret broker occultist 1)

When the Time of Troubles hits and magic goes wonky, she began to better appreciate her own unique abilities, and takes a position as a clerk at the school so she has better access to secrets and relics. (secret broker occultist 2, and lots of background skills)

After some traumatic family events wherein she gets disowned, she makes her way to Waterdeep and tries to make a living for herself as a government clerk, often aiding as a police sketch artist for the guard. In her free time, she frequents "The Drag 'n Queen Tavern" where she befriends many of the drag queen performers and loves that she has an audience for her fashion creations. It's also comforting being around others who value the ability to keep secrets. (secret broker occultist 3, adds a couple more skills)

Self-confidence and ambition growing, she befriends a scribe from work (inquisitor) and one of the minstrels from the tavern (bard). Since there are lots of odd jobs around Waterdeep, and city rent is expensive, they decide to team up as a party to sleuth out secrets, solve mysteries, etc. When they realize that they all perform different instruments, it occurs to them that being a band would be a great cover for their activities. (secret broker 4)

Over the course of their adventures, the unlikely composition of their small team means that each member has to fulfill some of the roles of a more standard party composition. For her part, Sin still has a knack for getting into places where she ought not to from her adolescence. (unchained rogue 2)

From there out, Sindariel does about 1 rogue level for every 3 occultist levels. In time, after each has gone their separate way, she finds herself in an elven colony far from Waterdeep where she sets up shop as a fashion designer while secretly serving as spymaster to the colony's governor.

Alright, before we go any further can someone please spell out what VMC means? Neither Google nor Urban Dictionary can help with this one. :-\

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Colette Brunel wrote:
The distributions are totally arbitrary anyway, leading to weird situations like fabulous bards being unable to clean their clothing with Prestidigitation, or druids being unable to get minor nature spirits to lift an object while clerics handle the job just fine.

I actually visited the boards for the first time in ages to say just this. How is it that my elegant bard can't touch-up her make-up or clear away the mud from her suede boots using Tidy? Cleaning up was one of the main reasons I always gave this spell to my bards!

As if that isn't bad enough, then we add insult to injury by allowing those dirty hippy druids to use Tidy? Ya know there's a reason they don't teach anyone else their language and it's because there are no words for hygiene; it's embarrassing.

And my poor cleric friends. Their deities want nice shiny tabernacles and spotless altars, but do they even think to help those who are helping them? Maybe give a priest some more mystical elbow grease to tidy up after a messy sacrifice? You know, the one where they got you-know-what in their eye... What a sadistic bunch of hopped-up outsiders those deities are!


*knocks over all the tables (every last one) on the way out

Let the wizard clean it up!

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Right now, out of all the rules I've seen, my biggest apprehension is multiclassing. I tend to multiclass... a LOT, but the current archetype-based multiclassing rules just leave me scratching my head.

For example, how am I supposed to multiclass a character with a bard or monk? How can I start with 1 or 2 levels in Rogue before fully switching to Cleric or Monk for that character's remaining progression? Mind you, I'm not just pulling hypotheticals out of thin air; these are all examples from characters I played in 3.5 & P1. I'm genuinely confused as to how I'd recreate them via the P2 rules.

To be clear, I'm happy for those for whom the archetype rules will work well. Having multiclass spellcasters who aren't left behind is a worthy goal! Yet given the dichotomy of people's responses, I'm clearly not the only one needing more robust options.

What we've been given for multiclassing so far reminds me of the difference between how we might quickly apply a monster template vs. having the tools and info needed to perform a rebuild. I wouldn't begrudge someone being happy with the quick n' easy method, but that's no reason to discount those of us hoping for a more organic approach.

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One thing I'm wondering is... Why was Summon Monster the preselected spell for the Polymath muse? It seems to me that Charm compliments the theme of Versatile Performance much more closely.

The only thing I can think of as to why monster summoning would be relevant to using one's skill at performance to influence others would be if we're going for some sort of Disney-princess-who-sings-to-animals shtick. :-\

Well that's a clever design, looks much more feasible for bringing to "away games" than the wooden octagons! :o

So after reading some suggestions, I was thinking that maybe repainting an existing globe with dry erase or chalkboard paint might work. Then I look at the reviews of those paints... The whiteboard paints apparently all suck or cost waaay too much, and the chalkboard paints can't actually be used with chalkboard markers because they are too porous. >.<

Currently trying to find a hard plastic or metal ball with the same diameter as an inexpensive globe since apparently the chalk markers should work on a smooth surface like that.

GM Mowque wrote:
But wouldn't big black rings break up your landforms anyway?

I'm thinking thin lines like what you'd have on graph paper, not the thick plastic band that's used to mark the equator on most globes.

I'm somewhat dubious of my ability to get the latitude and longitude markings correct, though the longer I search, the more I'm starting to think I might not have a choice...

So I'd really like to be able to experiment with mapping out my world by-hand on an actual spherical surface without having to use a computer. Unfortunately, all my searching on Google, Amazon, and Etsy has produced only frustration. The few "blank" globes I've found are either cheap household decor items, or they still have the outlines and/or bas-relief contours of Earth's continents.


So does anyone know where a one might find or commission a truly blank globe? What I'm looking for would ideally have a dry-erase whiteboard finish, be completely smooth (i.e. no relief contours), and have permanent latitude and longitude markers.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Huzzah! Let me know if you need a run-down of what some of the rooms are. FWIW, the 3rd floor balcony (above the ballroom) houses a pipe organ. Additionally, stairs and terraces are tinted blue as they descend, and tinted black as they ascend.

Hmm, be kind of ironic if the OP gave up just half an hour before my post went thru considering it took an hour to get everything uploaded for them...

I encountered the same problem a few months back and decided to spend a few hundred hours working on a gigantic manor house (~180x60 squares) inspired by Castle Drachenburg in Germany. While I'm not about to share the Photoshop file, I've uploaded PNG files of the floors (sans furnishings) as well as the fully-furnished MapTool campaign file to my DropBox below:

Note: You may want to switch to detail-view rather than thumbnail view (upper-right of the file listing) since the files are too large to be previewed.

Enjoy, and let me know if you have any questions or feedback.

Resolution Notes:
If it matters, the map itself is at 45 pixels/5-ft square. The reason is to match the resolution needed for a 5-ft square to equal 1-inch on a 50-inch HDTV. Why that size TV? The height of a 50" diagonal screen is 24-inches... the same as the width of a Flip Mat.

Excellent, thanks Diego!

I've been enjoying reading thru UI over the past few weeks, but today when I turned the page to the chapter on spells, I was confused that a full page of text appeared immediately after the spell lists began. That's when I noticed the page numbers on the bottom did not progress from 192 to 193 but from 192 to 161!

Flipping back thru the book, I have the following pages:
1-192, 161-192, 225-253


Any help would be appreciated.

Please cancel my subscriptions to Pathfinder Modules and Pawns.

Thank you.

So I was trying to use the Global Bestiary Indices today to view creatures by type when I noticed a problem.

Even after clicking "Uncheck All" under Filter by Creature Type, the page reads "22 results" and the following creatures are still displayed:
Celestial bat
Celestial cat
Celestial hawk
Celestial lizard
Celestial monkey
Celestial owl
Celestial rat
Celestial raven
Celestial toad
Celestial viper
Celestial weasel
Fiendish bat
Fiendish cat
Fiendish hawk
Fiendish lizard
Fiendish monkey
Fiendish owl
Fiendish rat
Fiendish raven
Fiendish toad
Fiendish viper
Fiendish weasel

Additionally, these creatures seem to remain displayed even when toggling specific creature types on and off. This makes it more difficult to tell what's what as the results are cluttered with what appears to be a bunch of low-level summons.

I've tried this in the following browsers on 2 different PCs with the same results:
Chrome 51.0.2704.103 m
Edge 25.10586.0.0
Firefox 47.0
Internet Explorer 11.420.10586.0

Since taking a new job a couple years ago, I haven't had much time to participate in PbPs, check out new products, or keep up with the boards in general. As such, if someone PMs me for something, there's a pretty good chance they won't get an answer for longer than would normally be considered polite.

Case in point: about 2 weeks ago, a GM on the boards PM'd me asking for a link to a map that I'd made of Windward Isle. They needed it rather quickly since their group was coming up on it. The only reason I even saw their message was because I wanted to login and update my mailing/billing address.

I'm rather mortified that I kept someone hanging for so long.

TLDR; Could we please have an option to receive an email notification when individuals we have not blocked PM us?

Here's the two characters I had made:

Alis Kirmoon under her alias Admiral Wardove, and her twin sister, Alexis

IMO, the detail on the finished models is better than expected, so I'm quite happy with the results. Now if only the weather will turn decent for long enough to prime and paint them...

As my nigh negligible post count for the past year might suggest, RealLife™ has been kicking my rear lately. For the time being, I need to cut back on my gaming subscriptions until I've achieved a bit more balance.

I still want to stay subscribed to the Rulebook and Modules lines, but please cancel my subscriptions to both the Adventure Path and Maps lines.

Lastly, I do want to purchase the Strategy Guide, but I can't tell if I've properly pre-ordered it or not. If it's already in my Sidecart then does that mean I've successfully pre-ordered it, or is there something else I need to do?

Thanks in advance,


I typically view Paizo with the zoom in Chrome at 125% (current version is 39.0.2171.95 m). At that zoom factor, text enclosed in the smaller tag does indeed appear to be the same size as normal text (i.e. if there's a difference it's not perceptible). It is only when I revert to 100% zoom that the difference in size is plain-to-see.

Edit: And no, I do not currently have Stylish or an other CSS overrides running.

I keep a list of artists on DeviantArt who work on a commission basis here:
Commish Artists

Mind you, since it is DeviantArt, some of the artists' pages may contain imagery that is NSFW, so it may be best to shop for an artist whose style you like while at home.

Good luck!

Str: 9
Dex: 11
Con: 9
Int: 17
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Sys Admin. Wizard. I'm the guy with the magic.

Glad it worked out for you, congrats! :)

Well, you haven't mentioned the file format of your existing map, so without that important detail, I can only suggest doing a Google Search for a program that will convert from whatever format your existing map is in (i.e. BMP, JPG, PNG) to KMZ.

Example: Suggested Search Syntax

Also (and this is meant to be a helpful tangent), don't use JPG as the format to which you save your maps while you are still in the process of editing them. Unlike BMP, PNG, TIF, and PSD which are "lossless" file types, the JPEG format loses quality each time you re-save it as it is a "lossy" file type. Therefore, it's fine to save a copy into JPG for posting on the web or sharing with others, but always go back to your lossless copy before making edits or adding new features.

Hope this helps, and please forgive the LMGTFY link... it was the best way I could think of to illustrate an effective search string. :)

I've seen lots of folks upload audio tracks to YouTube, albeit many of these are instance of people "sharing" albums or video game soundtracks. Even so, there are plenty of people who will use it for more legit reasons, though you'll still need to have a background image of some sort.

That said, most of the amateur musicians I know seem to like SoundCloud.com for uploading tracks, parts, and practice sessions.

As for free recording software, I personally would recommend Audacity. It provides much better sound quality than Sound Recorder, and you can even use it to edit MP3s and the like.

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