Kavlor's page

Kavlor wrote:

A former apprentice to the cleric of Abadar, he saw necromancy as a solution to the economic problems of the modern world and developed the concept of necronomics, in which the undead (sentient beings and animals) are used to replace manual labor like farmers or miners, radically reducing the cost of resources and lightening the workload, allowing this labor to be directed toward the development of crafts and sciences, thereby bringing about an economic revolution. He was subsequently exiled from Abadar's ranks and instead dedicated himself to necromancy.

Do you mean “non-sentient beings,” I hope?

No, I should add "sapient beings". Because the character believes that lesser, non-sentient undead like skeletons and zombies are created without the souls of intelligent creatures, and this has no effect on the afterlife, unlike the intelligent undead. They are simply using the shells of the dead, which they no longer need, to make life easier for the living.

A former apprentice to the cleric of Abadar, he saw necromancy as a solution to the economic problems of the modern world and developed the concept of necronomics, in which the undead (sentient beings and animals) are used to replace manual labor like farmers or miners, radically reducing the cost of resources and lightening the workload, allowing this labor to be directed toward the development of crafts and sciences, thereby bringing about an economic revolution. He was subsequently exiled from Abadar's ranks and instead dedicated himself to necromancy.

Kavlor wrote:

I hope the introduction of an official Necromancer class will normalize attitudes and views toward necromancy in society. Ultimately, Geb demonstrates the potential of necronomics to increase economic productivity and eliminate the need for human labor on farms and mines, which could instead be channeled into crafts, science, and the arts.

Oh, yeah, and corral most humans to live as a food source.

Use one simple trick to solve this problem: they will not have human rights if you declare that they are not human by law. )))

I hope the introduction of an official Necromancer class will normalize attitudes and views toward necromancy in society. Ultimately, Geb demonstrates the potential of necronomics to increase economic productivity and eliminate the need for human labor on farms and mines, which could instead be channeled into crafts, science, and the arts.

I think Pallemi as concept good, but for immortal person I wished he had more history and adventures behind them, not being in research lab for thousands of years.

Kavlor wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Back in the OGL days, I liked to think of the three as different takes on lawful evil (hobgoblins), bugbears (neutral evil) and goblins (chaotic evil).

Well, I personally would rather make bugbears chaotic-evil, instead of goblins. Goblins at least can live together in tribes and exist as part of society. Bugbears just ex-crazy maniacs.

All good!

To me, the mayhem antics of goblins we delved into ever since Pathifnder's first Adventure Path fits chaos much better than neutrality, and the bugbear's devotion to "Do evil by any means necessary and enjoy it" feels more like they are just focused on evil without any additional distraction or preference toward chaos or law and could go either way. It also leans into the fact that our goblins worship demon lords, generally, and bugbears are more about themes about hunting and death that are more associated with Abaddon.

Being chaotic does not mean you can't live in societies, in any case.

All of which were indeed Pathfinder-specific deliberate choices made by me early on as part of the "let's put our own Paizo spin on these three to help separate them from the classic D&D roles they've played."

Well, for me, a reliable marker of a truly Lawful Good character or society is a consistent and unwavering adherence to Kant's Moral Imperative. And Bugbears are so deliberately intent on violating it that a stable society simply cannot exist among them. It is precisely along these lines of reasoning that I consider them Chaotic Evil.

Back in the OGL days, I liked to think of the three as different takes on lawful evil (hobgoblins), bugbears (neutral evil) and goblins (chaotic evil).

Well, I personally would rather make bugbears chaotic-evil, instead of goblins. Goblins at least can live together in tribes and exist as part of society. Bugbears just ex-crazy maniacs.

And somewhere near bagbears, but they are murderhobos.

Hmm... I'll be honest, I'm pretty indifferent to the AP itself. It didn't really grab me. I understand the potential appeal, but it's not the kind of hook that would pique my interest even before the story itself.

On the other hand, I'm extremely interested in the fact that the story takes place in Hwanggot. The reason for my thoughts is quite simple: it's one of my least favorite nations on the continent, which I personally find structurally useless for the narrative due to the way it's described. But here it will be accompanied by a country guide. This means it's possible that its appearance will be gently reworked in the second and first editions, which I personally would be more than happy about if something worthwhile comes out of it.

I'm really looking forward to this one. Fantasy tends to deal with religion in a very top down manner; these are the big psudo-Abrahamic capital-g Gods. But all those Venerated Ancestors and River Gods and Folk under the Hills give a setting a much more lived-in feel.

I'd say D&D and Pathfinder lean more toward a developed polytheism with a relatively clearly established pantheon, deity responsibilities, cosmology, and the like. For pseudo-Abrahamism, the gods of such universes lack transcendence; these gods still remain part of the universe and its laws, rather than existing outside of it and determining its logic. But overall, I agree with the lack of folk religious practices without a clear hierarchy and organization, and that this can be remedied.

I still confused about book. What EXACTLY it would describe? Low-religion folk practics like ancestor worship, nature and animal spirits and so on? Or about some Spirit World, something akin to First World, but for spirits?

If I'm not mistaken, the de facto answer from a canon perspective isn't "We abolished slavery in the setting," but "States abolished slavery in the setting, and we don't delve into its description."

So I'm sure semi-legal and illegal slavery still exists in Pathfinder. For example, Katapesh may regulate the city's laws, but it's unlikely they have any serious power or desire to combat slavery specifically, among the other problems facing that state. Furthermore, those same Okeno raiders are probably still engaged in piracy, just not as openly or extensively.

The human situation in Kaoling is quite debatable, even if it's on the borderline of slavery. Plus, we can't forget the human situation in many monster states like Shenmen. It's certainly not strictly institutionalized slavery, but rather a case of "I do what I want to others as long as no one can hold me accountable."

And of course, the "cattle" in Hebe, Yes, formally they are not slaves, because they are not recognized at all as being living beings with the most basic rights.

Thanks for answer. Well, sad to know it's just coincedence. It could be some connection to early Tar-Baphon life, maybe contacts with Janderhoff or Kraggodan dwarves, since they relatively close.

Also... still wondering how there is like 20 years of PF as setting, but we still doens't know almost nothing about Janderhoff, when it's one of five most important varisian cities and one of surviving Skycitadels

Maybe stupid and already answered question, but why exactly Tar-Baphon named this way and what it means? As we know, he is a varisian necromancer from early history of Avistan. His name have part "Tar" which meaning I doesn't know, but it also used by dwarves in their states Tar Taargadth and Tar Khadurrm and seems to mean something like Empire, since other words in this names are modified names of founder of this states. So... why Tar-Baphon used dwarven word to name himself? I know, this is strage question that seems doesn't interest anyone besides me, but I wanna know answer.

Kavlor wrote:

unless you want to release even the most brutal and insane criminals.

I want to do exactly that. Gotta think about replenishing the pool of mid- and high-level BBEGs for future generations of adventurers.

Oh, then sorry. I doesn't recognoized sarcasm and irony.

Kavlor wrote:

VerBeeker wrote:

Kavlor wrote:

I more interested into Citadel Gheradesca near Corentyn, since its would be perfect SPC cntaiment break loction with bunch of realy dangerous persons.

SCP, though isn't the Order of the Chain undergoing an internal civil war??

Sure, they're in the midst of a civil war within the order, while their citadel houses the most dangerous criminals from across the Inner Sea. And it's not just the political victims of a hypothetical Nidal, but also scum that literally chill the blood in your veins. They're imprisoned because it's safer to keep them alive than to let them become planar beings and operate again. Now imagine that this citadel is engulfed in fighting, chaos, the defense mechanisms are destroyed, and a partial prisoner escape begins.

Sounds like a general amnesty carries no downsides. The political prisoners go free, and any serious reoffenders (surely fewer than self-justifying propaganda by their jailers predicted) can be the subject of a Pathfinder Adventure module. Everybody wins.

Personally, I'm not so sure about that. Are you absolutely certain you're releasing the right people? Considering that the prison population could include serial killers capable of shapeshifting and adopting the appearance of a political prisoner? Or at least simply declare yourself one, simply because no one has seen the political prisoner for twenty years, and all the guards in his cellblock are dead. I don't dispute that it can be done, but it needs to be approached systematically and thoroughly, unless you want to release even the most brutal and insane criminals. A "general amnesty" might sound good, but personally, I wouldn't want to rely on anything like that.

Kavlor wrote:

I more interested into Citadel Gheradesca near Corentyn, since its would be perfect SPC cntaiment break loction with bunch of realy dangerous persons.

SCP, though isn't the Order of the Chain undergoing an internal civil war??

Sure, they're in the midst of a civil war within the order, while their citadel houses the most dangerous criminals from across the Inner Sea. And it's not just the political victims of a hypothetical Nidal, but also scum that literally chill the blood in your veins. They're imprisoned because it's safer to keep them alive than to let them become planar beings and operate again. Now imagine that this citadel is engulfed in fighting, chaos, the defense mechanisms are destroyed, and a partial prisoner escape begins.

That is kind of the central conceit of Golarion, Gods of a cosmological scale all have a vested interest in it. Normally that also means they can't exert too much direct influence on it -- meddling could mean fights and fights could mean destruction and destruction means release. It seems Asmo is testing the limits of that.

Don't forget about Sarenrei. It is currently associated with the largest, longest-lived, and most stable empire in Golarion.

I more interested into Citadel Gheradesca near Corentyn, since its would be perfect SPC cntaiment break loction with bunch of realy dangerous persons.

Yeah, I think currently it would be better to finish with Runelords Sorshen history, althougt I still think that some think like legacy of Thassilon, sin swords and Alderpash and such things. Maybe not as mainline plot, but I think it would make sence for Alderpash be side-charater in some epic history, if he get from Ivory Labyrinth.

Xenocrat wrote:

Kavlor wrote:

This is how war would end, map named very close to what we get according person who got book. SPOILERS:

Post-war map .

Cheliax become new circle of Hell and Abrogail becomes new Archdevil, which is IMO bad desicion. Like Barbados gifted sould of entire world to Asmodeus, while Abrogail have only half of her realm when she start rule, not even Cheliax at highest and of couse not entire world.

This was amusingly hinted at in Era of the Eclispse, where a Hellknight immediately after the Gap struggles to remember if Hell has nine or ten layers. You're meant to just think it's a funny sign of how brain scrambled everyone is and how messed up historical knowledge is.

I do agree that calling this a "layer" and Abby an "Archdevil" is preetty dumb given what she's bringing to the table. The other layers are theoretically infinite and practically many many orders of magnitude bigger than her territory.

Designating Cheliax a tenth layer of Hell is fine. It emphasizes to everyone in it and outside it that Cheliax is of and subordinate to Hell, and cannot maintain its pretensions of being an ally or master of Hell. And it implies equality of Cheliax with other layers of Hell about as much as Portugal designating Angola or Goa a province implied equality with the metropolitan provinces (which is to say, not at all).

Also, bit of ruler lawyering, but how things like banishing would work now in Cheliax? And would we interplanar teleport to cross border?

We have two goblinoid nations in Avistan, but still no halflings one, somehow... What this could mean?

Kavlor wrote:

This is how war would end, map named very close to what we get according person who got book. ** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

This is outcome is pretty close to what I predicted with the exception of Andoran annexing Eastern Cheliax outright; I had figured that the emphasis on setting up independent states meant they didn’t think they could get away with a pure land grab. I guess now they could say they’re doing it as a preventative measure to stop Hell from taking over.

Given that there was no mention of another state in the LO series, I didn't expect it to appear. I expected this archduchy to fall under Adoran's control, but I was more expecting something along the lines of a military occupation or a demilitarized zone under the peace treaty.

Although I admit there's a particular appeal to creating an Andoran-friendly halfling republic in these lands, where all the halflings from the former Chileax could be resettled, so they wouldn't be oppressed and would have a home and their own nation. I'm confident that such a move would certainly not have any undesirable consequences after everything that's happened.

Your link doesn't work. Also you might want to give a spoiler warning.

I think, fixed

This is how war would end, map named very close to what we get according person who got book.

Turning specifically to the subject of ogres, I will outline how the creators of Anbennar chose to address this matter within their own setting.

In this world, ogres are afflicted by a perpetual sense of Hunger—a condition intrinsic to their very nature. It is, in essence, a magical curse—a deliberate design flaw intended to facilitate their control by their creators: the giants and titans. This Hunger cannot be fully or permanently sated through physical means; it can only be temporarily alleviated. Indeed, the influence of this Hunger has, to a large extent, defined the distinct cultural identities of the various "Cultures of Hunger."

Some ogres, for instance—following the collapse of the giant civilization—completely succumbed to the Hunger. Stripped of any meaningful culture, they devolved into brutal, gluttonous barbarians and cannibals—becoming the archetypal ogres so familiar to us.

Other groups of ogres, however, discovered a different path. The Horned Ogres, for example, mitigate their Hunger not through the consumption of food, but by siphoning qi energy from the souls of sentient beings. Theirs is a highly advanced, ancient, and culturally sophisticated civilization—yet, for obvious reasons, they are utterly malevolent.

Still another group of ogres chose a different route entirely: they embraced a path of the strictest asceticism, self-denial, and meditation. Through this discipline, they seek to attain enlightenment and mental clarity; by confronting the unceasing pangs of Hunger head-on, they ultimately acquire the ability to transcend and ignore it.

I have to say, Pathfinder's Ogres need a different identity from the "Hills Have Eyes" stuff that defined them early on in the life of the brand, and if they have a good idea for what that should be then that's a good reason to do an ancestry, but if they don't have an idea they want to go with they should just leave ogres by the wayside until they do.

For my part, I take an extremely negative view of the concept of retcons. Furthermore, I see absolutely no problem with the traditional portrayal of ogres in Pathfinder. We should not strive to make every race and people palatable to modern society. Therefore, if the introduction of ogres entails a retcon—or simply the unexplained addition of "good" ogres who bear absolutely no resemblance to their evil brethren, for no reason other than "just because"—then I am strongly opposed to it. To me, the consistency of the setting is far more important than the addition of playable ogres.

Kavlor wrote:

First, I assume that Ancient Aztlan will be responsible for their introduction, given its role as the dominant power during that era.

If they were introduced to Avistan more than ten thousand years ago, I do not think they qualify as invasive species anymore.

I understand your point, but I am not to blame for the fact that the terms currently employed in science are ill-suited for discussing such hypothetical situations and timeframes. Likewise—as is often the case in history—the definition of a "native population" is not tied to rigid, unambiguous criteria, but rather to an individual's political convictions, double standards, and hypocrisy. Regrettably, we currently lack any terminology that is more precise or unequivocal.

First, I assume that Ancient Aztlan will be responsible for their introduction, given its role as the dominant power during that era.

Second—yes, technically they would be an invasive species, but I wouldn't consider that a global problem. By that, I mean that "invasive species" typically refers to those whose spread has been facilitated by humans. Yet, even without human intervention, the dispersal of species—the displacement of one by another, and the subsequent extinctions—is a perfectly normal occurrence in the history of Earth's biosphere; skunks, in and of themselves, hardly constitute a problem of global magnitude. Especially since skunks, in terms of their ecological niche and potential predators, are actually quite similar to the badgers and raccoons that are native to Europe.

Seriously—we have wild hippos in Colombia; *that* is a problem—not skunks in Avistan.

So... As I see there would be Corentyn, Arpden Arch, Khari, Egorian as playable locations, but not Westcrown...

I don't agree that PF2's version of Tian Xia is primarily drawn from Japan at all. I'm pretty sure they hired a diverse team of Asian and Asian-American talent to explicitly guarantee Tian Xia *wasn't* primarily pop culture Japanese in inspiration.

To be honest, I personally share the view that Tian Xia still bears the heavy imprint and inspiration—predominantly—of Japanese culture. While this aspect has certainly waned and diminished over time, it has not vanished completely.

Let me remind you that the region's most iconic race is the kitsune—referred to by that specific name—whereas the term *huli jing* was not used prior to the second edition. Similarly, the tengu and jorōgumo—beings inextricably linked to Japanese culture and mythology—possess their own nations as part of the local, now-dissolved non-Chinese empire. Then there is the abundance of *oni* and *kami* found across the continent—figures drawn, once again, directly from Shintoism.

That said, while I certainly agree with this assessment, I also believe that significant work has actually been done to gradually move away from this reliance—evidenced by the introduction of the Sarangay, the depiction of Dokkaebi, and various other elements. Furthermore, I personally do not view this primary inspiration from Japanese culture as a fatal flaw that must be glossed over or erased and retcon old lore; rather, it should be accepted as a fact, with efforts focused instead on rectifying its less desirable aspects.

Personally, I harbor far greater antipathy toward certain other elements of the region than I do toward these specific ones—for instance, the way Hwanggot and Bachuan portray Korea, or what I view as the colossal wasted potential associated with Linvarre.

With the number of Large ancestries, I'd be down for the following...

- Cyclops
- Ogres
- Trolls
- True Giants
- Titans
- Onis / Yais

alongside a versatile heritage that makes you one size larger.

My personal opinion - I'm against ogres, considering how they were portrayed in PF prior. Not because I think they are too bad, but cause I think that portraying they to make both incestorus murderhobos from PF1 and real complex civilization both exist and be reasonable end to different groups of ogres... well, it's not impossible, but would require too much pages to make it good explained. I'm huge fan of Anbennar setting which did it, and it was done quite good and reasonable, but I think it would require too much material to explain it good without decanonizing classical pure evil orges or introducing new good ones without real valid explanation why they are. Also bit same thoughts about trolls and some true giants, like hill ones. IMO they better be more fully villian races, like sekmina.

Also, I doesn't think true giants and especially titans would be good to convert in playable races, since titans, for expample are nearly demigods. I woult rather expect some giant/titanblood heritage, than ancestries directly.

But I personally fully support cyclopes, since PF actually was very good at portraying them with their oracular lore. Plus their canonical role of smiths, and other ideas with their sole eye (like malus to missile attacks), and I think they would be actuaaly very good ancestry.

I would like to highlight one particular aspect—one that strikes me as entirely logical and natural, yet for some reason remains unexplored within this universe: the fact that Taldor draws its inspiration from Byzantium. The Senate, a guard composed of non-Vikings, and similar elements. Furthermore, it occurred to me that a storyline featuring chariot racing in a prominent role would be a perfect fit for this theme. This is, firstly, due to the historical rivalry between the Green and Blue chariot factions in Constantinople and the significant role this played in politics; and secondly, due to the potential for references to *Ben-Hur*—and perhaps to an even wider array of classic "peplum" films.

In my personal opinion, I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a thematic Ninja or Samurai class. First of all, we already have the Viking, as well as several other examples of strictly culturally-oriented content. Secondly—if you dislike the abundance of specifically Japanese elements (and I myself agree that Tian Xia draws its inspiration primarily from Japan)—the solution isn't to reject potential content entirely; rather, you should advocate for adding more "flavor" drawn from other real-world cultures. It’s not as if there aren't plenty to choose from.

The main challenge regarding the mechanical implementation of the Samurai and Ninja lies, instead, in the need to thematically define what the very concepts of the Samurai and Ninja represent within the context of Pathfinder. I do not believe they necessarily need to be full-fledged classes; however, they could certainly be realized as thematic archetypes—packages of abilities drawn from various existing classes—for those players who wish to engage with these specific tropes.

I am curious how much will be covered about how sailing ships manage to defend themselves vs aquatic enemies. Sailing ships I would think would be really vulnerable in a setting where there are fully aquatic intelligent civilizations that have magical capacity. Seeing/hearing a boat rumbling around compared to beings that can well below the surface. There almost has to be a fair amount of detection magic that allows ships some better way of seeing the threats around them and protecting themselves.

Given the existence of real-world technologies, the problem may not be all that significant; the solution is simply a hull two meters thick, made of oak timber. In reality, cannons were sometimes simply incapable of penetrating the thick hulls of large ships—a limitation that ultimately drove the further development and increased power of artillery. I am confident that, in 99% of cases, the underwater peoples possess no weaponry more powerful than this.

I must categorically object to certain points.

First, we should not provide exhaustive information regarding the Dominion of the Black. This is not because the subject matter would be uninteresting; rather, the issue is that when dealing with entities utterly alien to the human psyche—beings too bizarre and incomprehensible to grasp (as Lovecraftian horrors invariably are)—any attempt to shoehorn them into the realm of conventional politics and factionalism results in abject failure. The same principle applies to the various races and creatures drawn from Lovecraftian mythos—such as the Cosmic Polyp—and similar entities.

The second point I wish to address concerns the problematic nature of defining "Aberrations" as a single, unified concept. The trouble with this classification is that it encompasses a multitude of creatures that are, in the context of a fantasy setting, entirely mundane and relatively normal—the Grindlow being a prime example. In essence, the entire "Aberration" creature type serves as a catch-all bin: a dumping ground where, alongside truly "unnatural" entities, one finds tossed everything else that simply fails to fit into any of the other established categories. Consequently, I find the concept of an entire book dedicated to Aberrations *in general*—rather than focusing on a more specific, narrower subset of that category—to be somewhat ill-conceived.

I also would say that we may get grindylows heritage for goblins, like monkey-goblins are part of broader goblins in 2nd edition.

And for merfolk I would like to get Cecaelias heritage. IMO, they aren't that far conceptually to make in two different races, since both are underwater race with aquatic lower part of body, which is can't be used for walk.

Also, I'm bit not sure about potential of Tritons for future. I'm thinking about that they too close of Azarketi to make them distinct enough, they both are underwater humanoid races. Same bit why I doesn't see Sedacthys ancestry, since IMO they too close conceptually to Athamaru. But I think we may get Adaro.

Drathnelar and Hryngar probably would get maximally heritage. I think also that Wyvaran couldn't be made as full ancestry, but as heritage with it's own line of feats. And same for Shabti, since they are made in form of any race, so it's more correct to make them heritage.

If Calingi or Munavi would get ancestry, it would been in big Darklands book. And Rougarou with Syrinx and Wyrwood for Ancardia. But I'm surprised we didn't get Gathlain in Feybound, since for me they more interesting and distinct than Gremlins, which are close to Sprites themtically. I'm somewhat interested in Orang-pendak, since it's real mythological creature, but I doesn't see where they can ne places.

I don't think we would got Beings of Ib, Deep one hybrid, Yaddithian or Reptoid ancestiries

Ladies and gentlemen, I disagree with those who say that orcs without the traumatic experience of the dwarves would be kinder. Let me remind you that almost all the gods traditionally worshiped by orcs were Chaotic Evil. So, to put it mildly, I doubt that a civilization in which their worship was traditional is particularly kind and welcoming, for obvious reasons.

And given that orcs have access to the Crucible, I personally have been reluctant to portray large orc groups in a positive light until recently. It begs the question: why haven't there been any successful examples of orcs from these peoples seizing a place in the pantheon? Yet, we have several new gods from the Belkzen orcs, but only from their ranks and without any others.

Okay, weird and maybe lame idea but... Happy Orcs.

in their history they were driven from the darklands by the Dwarves Quest for Sky (tm), into the surface, a world they were not built for,

I would love to see an Orc civilization still living underground and shocking everyone by being happy welcoming people, sharing their abundant harvests (of what I don't know). Just a complete shock to anyone who knows surface Orcs. Not like they're total pacificists, but they seek first alliance and harmony, and if these are slapped away their warriors do not hesitate to protect their people. They DO have an ancestral grudge against Dwarves though.

Isn't this mostly just Matanji orcs?

Again, I don't think we shouldn't strive to create cool and awesome things. It's just that I think a professional company like Paizo shouldn't create content impulsively, but rather with a mindset of "how will this expansion improve the player experience?"

I'll just try to explain what exactly I'm having trouble with, addressing both my personal biases and what I consider a more objective issue.

My gripe with races like the Shisk, Kashrishi, and Goloma is that, in my opinion, they're created without any stated purpose. Simply because the creators thought it was a cool or funny idea at the time. And then they either dismiss it as a failure or simply get distracted by other concepts, overlooking them in other materials. This applies to a lesser extent to some other races that I find more successful and interesting, like the Surki, but nonetheless. This is, at least, my subjective impression of these races.

The first problem I encounter with these races is that it's not entirely clear what fantasy they appeal to and how they could be used to interest others. Two points intersect here:
1. They are completely original, not borrowing material from real mythology and culture or other iconic fantasy.
2. In 2nd Edition, due to changes in how races work, authors have significantly less opportunity to describe the cultures of various peoples in detail.

This means that such races often lack detailed descriptions, even descriptions outside of Paizo's materials. This makes it unclear how to use them and what their purpose is beyond their immediate gameplay mechanics.

Yes, I understand that the change in the amount of text required per race in 2nd Edition is an objective factor, and it's not reasonable to demand that all races receive a detailed ten-page description of their culture and habitat. But it's precisely these races that suffer the most from this inability to do so.

If we're talking about iconic creatures from mythology like centaurs and minotaurs, players may already be familiar with this concept from many other sources, desire its implementation, and understand how to work with it. Or, if less European, sarangai and anadi.

On the other hand, hobgoblins and bugbears didn't receive much detailed description from Paizo in 2nd Edition. But they are iconic creatures from D&D, encountered in many places, and you can get a rough idea of ​​what to expect from them from other fantasy settings.

But what is a Shisk? What excites them? Why should I play one? How do they interact even with the inhabitants of their own region? There are no answers to these questions, and we can only speculate.

That's precisely why I personally advocate adding either real mythological creatures, iconic fantasy creatures, or variations of 1st Edition creatures. Because I believe it's worth recognizing the limitations imposed by the 2nd Edition format and not trying to game them, but embracing and adapting to them.

Similarly, due to the lack of all the above-mentioned questions, and probably due to the need to invent them, we rarely encounter original Paizo races. And even when we do, they're usually isolated individuals, like the Konrasu and the Awakened Beasts in Wildwood, rather than fully-fledged cultures and societies.

My personal dissatisfaction with them is that I'm not a big fan of the "Mos Eisley cantina vibe" when applied to fantasy. I agree that fantasy can be extremely diverse, given the diversity of real historical cultures. But in my view, it's better to strive to emulate the representations of these cultures in production rather than attempt to create something entirely new. After all, fantasy largely stems from a desire to emulate the past and folklore.

That said, I certainly don't think original races are a bad thing. I fully support the vast diversity of species in Starfinder. In this case, the local, alien, strange, and extremely diverse Galaxy is precisely what perfectly meets the requirement that Starfinder strives to fulfill. Especially since, unlike the single planet in the case of Golarion, which isn't really all that large, the Galaxy is vast enough that races exist in the background, and we barely consider interactions with them.

In any case, I personally don't quite understand the point of adding original races like the Shisk and Goloma.

I mean, my slight disagreement with their inclusion stems from a simple principle: they exist essentially separately and aren't integrated into the setting. For example, I don't recall these two races taking part in any other adventures. Furthermore, they were given very brief descriptions, without giving us a full introduction to them, their way of life, and much more, unlike many of the aforementioned cultures of the Mwangi Expanse. And they seem to have no connection to real mythology or imagery, allowing players to draw upon the missing information.

Ultimately, I get the feeling they exist in the setting solely to increase the overall number of playable races, and nothing more.

I don't mean to say I'm categorically against them; sometimes they do produce interesting concepts. But I'm trying to understand why they're added and then not used or developed? And are there even fans of adding new races like these?

Kavlor wrote:

Medusas - in many ways similar to harpies, but I've just seen fewer interesting examples of their character development and am therefore less eager to see them in the game.

You mean the Stheno? It's ready for playable status, so ;)

Yes, I'm talking about them. But I haven't heard of any plans to make them playable.

By the way, as another possibility, I'd love to be able to play as the Large Amurruns. Something akin to the race of tigers, lions, and other large cats.

I'm generally more interested in races based on classic mythological and fantasy tropes, and not nearly as interested in Paizo's original creations, especially when they come without a sufficiently detailed and complete description of their lifestyle, history, and so on, making them seem disconnected from the setting.

For example, the Anadi have a very clear connection to Anansi and real mythology; I can understand that. On the other hand, I'm not sure the Shiski and Goloma are connected to real mythology.

That said, I'm quite excited about the races we'll be getting soon.
Bugbears aren't the most useful option for a playable race, but they're a classic creature from D&D and fantasy, and I like that.
I also like the addition of fauns, as they're an example of a creature from classical mythology, and I'm hoping for some connections to satyrs.
I'm less thrilled about nymphs and gremlins. I'm not sure how Paizo will define an entire category of creatures as a single ancestry. Plus, I'm generally not a fan of gremlins and other tiny races.

Here are my wishes for new races:
Harpies - in my opinion, they are absolutely iconic creatures from classical mythology. Moreover, I personally find it more interesting to consider harpies as an exclusively female species, as a possible way to rework their culture and concept toward a people who need to coexist with other peoples.
Cyclopes - another example of a race from classical mythology that I think would be quite interesting to explore, especially since they are a highly advanced civilization in-universe, and also have ties to prophecy.
Medusas - in many ways similar to harpies, but I've just seen fewer interesting examples of their character development and am therefore less eager to see them in the game.
Tritons - I think they would be a logical addition to the underwater races.
Another example of aquatic creatures that I consider potentially quite interesting, meaningful, and have wide application is the Selkie.
Girtablilu are classic creatures from Mesopotamian mythology, and they could very well be added to the game, given that larger ancestors are now more acceptable.
Urmallulu are another classic creature from Mesopotamian mythology, half-human, half-lion. For me, this is a largely possible option for creating something similar to Wemic, but based on real mythology and culture.
From Japanese mythology and for the future potential of the Tian Xia, I think it would be interesting to borrow at least the Jorogumo and Kappa, which you're already familiar with. But as a less straightforward suggestion, I'd mention the Rokurokubi. I think the ability to extend the neck or detach and make the head fly could be potentially interesting and have potential applications, even though they're otherwise little different from humans. I'd be even more excited to borrow from other mythologies, as I've already done with the Wayang and Sarangai.
For Vudra, I think the Garudas would be a welcome addition as a local people. I also think the Yaksha expansion would be desirable for Vudra, as they are, after all, creatures originally from Indian mythology.
For Arcadia, I'd like to see the Sasquatch, and how it could be expanded to include similar creatures from different parts of the world, like secretive humanoids living in remote places.
Another people I'd personally like to see more widely distributed are the dog-headed race, similar to the ones already existing in the Rougarou setting, which are limited to Arcadia. Why? Because dog-headed races have traditionally been mentioned in legends and real-life mythology in a wide variety of places, and I'd like to see them in various places around the world.

But there's something I specifically wouldn't want to see, because I think it would require too much material to describe well.
First and foremost, these are ogres and, to some extent, trolls as playable characters. In my opinion, Anbennar as a setting has, in many ways, done the best job of revealing the ogres as a people, their culture, and behavior, and this required a significant amount of work and material. I simply don't believe it's feasible to do so within the limited printed material of Paizo.

I'd like to add my own thought to these words. Personally, I'd like to see fetchlings become heritage races instead of ancestry, so that other possible races affected by the Plane of Shadow could be played.

I mean, we get bugbears in this year. I'm not sure serpenfolk will remain villian-only.

OMG, Nuremberg Trials in an AP?? (if only a portion or epilogue)

Well... in that case, I think it would be quite a "fun" thing. So to speak, don't ask most of the upper and middle management of free Cheliax whose side they've been on throughout the entire history of the Infernal Monarchy, whether they've made contracts with Hell, whether they're diabolists, and the like. Just as don't ask why Cheliax researchers for various topics like Warshards ended up as researchers and scientists in the Platinum Wing.

So Earth laws? Earth norms? And a bit modern at that. It's better than nothing, but do we have anything from Golarion/Paizo? What standards are devs using? Is there even univocality among them? Is the lack why we're seeing what some think are discrepancies?

I'm not a fan of applying modern moral standards to fantasy and the Pathfinder universe, which is a more archaic setting. I was simply trying to show that, from a purely legal standpoint, many other stories and adventures in the universe are no better by those same modern legal definitions. Therefore, the thread's author's position, in my view, isn't the most logically consistent, and therefore I disagree with the idea that future adventures need to be adjusted to reflect this position.

Are you implying that restricting religious freedom is okay?

Like even in fantasy context, its basically saying "You can't idolize or be fan of someone" since fantasy religions are kind of glorified celebrity fandoms

Well, strictly speaking, I can understand their motivation. The gods are extremely powerful forces that exert their will on the world, but mortals have no way to hold them accountable for the consequences of their influence. At the same time, divine casters, especially clerics, are conscious servants of these gods, their interests, and their goals. These may not necessarily serve the good of the country, even if they remain technically legal. In fact, such views have some similarities to the idea of ​​a citizen of a state being accused of treason for acting in the interests of a foreign power. Because while in the real world, religious matters are largely a matter of personal views and social values, here they are a much more complex matter. So the Pure Legion's views are certainly extreme, but I believe there is a grain of truth to them.

Like, when worshiping and wanting to serve a god gives you the ability to throw fireballs, it stops being a matter of just personal choice and becomes a matter of public safety, just like any other possible regulation of magic training or weapon ownership.