Squark wrote:
My group howled with delight during that scenario. spoiler: That entire adventure was hilarious. The animated beastie who had the Medium and Rare tags. A genie forcing you to actually play "the floor is lava". A statue of a goddess being enchanted to sing bawdy sailor songs.
It was a delight.
Michael Sayre wrote:
Thanks for the quick reply! My group was debating whether it would be will DC or a Standard DC for the targets level. I lost that bet ;p
Deriven Firelion wrote:
I've had great success with my wizard. I play PFS and I just hit level 8. First you are too focused on incapacitation stuff. Paizo nerfed the hell out of save-or-suck spells but a lot of wizards are still trying to build that was for 2e and feeling bad about themselves. Same for summons. Summons are much worse now. No feats to support them, the spell itself is less powerful, etc. On occasion you MAY run into a niche minion that just really fits a situation but it's rare that summons are super good. I have no experience with shapechange, it didn't look good enough to start using imo. As for what IS effective. Truestrike is amazing. With the linear math in 2e truestrike is REALLY good. Cast it before just about any spell attack roll. My wizard uses hand of the apprentice with it alot. Early levels magic weapon is S tier. Darkness has been our MVP spell and trivializes half the encounters we face. But most my local society players were excited to play goblins so we have a ton of darkvision (I'm a cave elf). If you don't have a party full of DV then you might see if your party is interested in gaining it other ways: Goggles, elixers, or if you are paired with an alchemist in party have him give it to everyone. Giving your martials great invis is super strong. Obviously great on a rogue, but is shockingly good on your barbarian/fighter too. Always having flat footed in 2e is not just 10% higher chance to hit but often 10% higher chance to crit. Resilient is my go to save-or-suck when i just absolutely want it. The boss at the end of our last adventure MADE his reflex save and was still stuck in a bubble the entire encounter. He was a caster and only had 1 dispel magic (and failed his counter check). He spent the entire combat wacking at it and never getting through the hardness. As mentioned I'm a cave elf. I also have both nimble and fleet. And I cast 2nd level longstrider twice a day. 50ft movement speed on a ranged can get stupid. Twice we would have TPK'd but I threw haste on myself and each round was stride/stride/cast and they couldn't get in melee range. Honestly I think it is one of the stronger classes. Perhaps not THE strongest in combat but it is in the top half and has lots of utility to make up for it. Although the APG helped a ton the class I think needs help is alchemist.
This happened in our last PFS game and we still haven't decided on how to handle the situation for Saturday's game. Our silly rogue with a climb speed went over a wall and ended up engaging with some wights while we walked around. He died... dummy.
Resurrection Plan: :
The Pathfinder Society is invested in keeping its most successful agents in the field. You can purchase a resurrection ritual for 25 Fame. If you are in a rush to return to life and cannot wait the day for this ritual to be conducted, you can instead purchase a casting of the raise dead spell for 50 Fame. But can you resurrect him? Resurrection ritual requires "the target’s body to be present and relatively intact" unless it's heightened to at least 7th level (9th level with no body at all). The fame reward does not give a level. It is assumed, but not explicitly stated, that if you use this on an 11th level character it is heightened to 6th. Raise Dead has similar language but can't be heightened to perform without a body.
Resurrection Ritual: :
Source Core Rulebook pg. 415 PFS Note All characters have access to resurrect Cast 1 day; Cost diamonds worth a total value of 75 gp × the target’s level; Secondary Casters 2 Primary Check Religion (expert); Secondary Checks Medicine, Society Range 10 feet; Target(s) 1 dead creature of up to 10th level You attempt to call forth the target’s soul and return it to its body. This requires the target’s body to be present and relatively intact. The target must have died within the past year. If Pharasma has decided that the target’s time has come or the target doesn’t wish to return, this ritual automatically fails, but you discover this after the successful Religion check and can end the ritual without paying the cost. Critical Success You resurrect the target. They return to life with full Hit Points and the same spells prepared and points in their pools they had when they died, and still suffering from any long-term debilitations of the old body. The target meets an agent of their deity during the resurrection who inspires them, granting them a +1 status bonus to attack rolls, Perception, saving throws, and skill checks for 1 week. The target is also permanently changed in some way by their time in the afterlife, such as gaining a slight personality shift, a streak of white in the hair, or a strange new birthmark. Success As critical success, except the target returns to life with 1 Hit Point and no spells prepared or points in any pools, and still is affected by any long-term debilitations of the old body. Instead of inspiring them, the character’s time in the Boneyard has left them temporarily debilitated. The target is clumsy 1, drained 1, and enfeebled 1 for 1 week; these conditions can’t be removed or reduced by any means until the week has passed. Failure Your attempt is unsuccessful. Critical Failure Something goes horribly wrong—an evil spirit possesses the body, the body transforms into a special kind of undead, or some worse fate befalls the target. Heightened (6th) You can resurrect a target of up to 12th level, and the base cost is 125 gp. Heightened (7th) You can use resurrect even with only a small portion of the body; the ritual creates a new body on a success or critical success. The target must have died within the past decade. The ritual requires four secondary casters, each of whom must be at least half the target’s level. The target can be up to 14th level, and the base cost is 200 gp. Heightened (8th) As 7th level, but the target can be up to 16th level and the base cost is 300 gp. Heightened (9th) You can use resurrect even without the body as long as you know the target’s name and have touched a portion of its body at any time. The target must have died within the past century, and it doesn’t gain the negative conditions on a success. The ritual requires eight secondary casters, each of whom must be at least half the target’s level. The target can be up to 18th level, and the base cost is 600 gp. [/b]Heightened (10th) [/b]As 9th level, except it doesn’t matter how long ago the target died. The ritual requires 16 secondary casters, each of whom must be at least half the target’s level. The target can be up to 20th level, and the ritual’s base cost is 1,000 gp. Raise Dead: :
Source Core Rulebook pg. 362 PFS Note All characters have access to raise dead Traditions divine Cast 10 minutes (material, somatic, verbal); Cost diamonds worth a total value of the target's level (minimum 1) x 200 gp Range 10 feet; Targets 1 dead creature of 13th level or lower You attempt to call forth the dead creature's soul, requiring the creature's body to be present and relatively intact. The creature must have died within the past 3 days. If Pharasma has decided that the creature's time has come (at the GM's discretion), or if the creature doesn't wish to return to life, this spell automatically fails, but the diamonds aren't consumed in the casting. If the spell is successful, the creature returns to life with 1 Hit Point, no spells prepared or spell slots available, no points in any pools or any other daily resources, and still with any long-term debilitations of the old body. The time spent in the Boneyard leaves the target temporarily debilitated, making it clumsy 2, drained 2, and enfeebled 2 for 1 week; these conditions can't be removed or reduced by any means until the week has passed. The creature is also permanently changed by its time in the afterlife, such as a slight personality shift, a streak of white in the hair, or a strange new birthmark. Heightened (7th) The maximum level of the target increases to 15. The cost increases to the target's level (minimum 1) × 400 gp. Heightened (8th) The maximum level the target increases to 17. The cost increases to the target's level (minimum 1) × 800 gp. Heightened (9th) The maximum level of the target increases to 19. The cost increases to the target's level (minimum 1) × 1,600 gp. Heightened (10th) The maximum level the target increases to 21. The cost increases to the target's level (minimum 1) × 3,200 gp. Creatures with the undead trait are "destroyed" at 0 Hit Points. Someone argued this just meant they skipped the "dying" stages, but all NPCs do that anyway. The GM concluded that we brought back a pile of his ashes. It also mentions "soul-corrupting evil magics" and both resurrection and raise dead "Attempt to call forth the dead creature's soul". Additionally both state that "Long-Term Debilitation" are not removed. Undeath may or may not be a long-term debilitation. undead: :
Once living, these creatures were infused after death with negative energy and soul-corrupting evil magic. When reduced to 0 Hit Points, an undead creature is destroyed. Undead creatures are damaged by positive energy, are healed by negative energy, and don’t benefit from healing effects. So these are the questions all this raises: * Do we have a body? * Is undeath a “long-term debilitation” or is his soul too corrupted to res? * What level is the resurrection ritual heightened to if purchase with fame? We really like to go by RAW or official clarifications as much as possible. Since it's PFS reducing table variation is pretty important. But there is enough ambiguity there opinion is still a factor – I’d just like to avoid focusing on subjective trains of thought if possible. Thanks for reading, and I appreciate any constructive replies! TL;DR: PC died and turned into an undead (wight): Reasons they can't be resurrected * Undead are destroyed and there is no body
Reasons they can be resurrected * Undead being "destroyed" is just flavor text not game mechanics, there is a body
Claxon wrote:
Aratorin wrote: It does seem to me that you would get a better response in the PFS forum though. Thanks for the advice. I will take it and repost this in the PFS forums. Orithilaen wrote: A lot of good questions raised here. The only one I have a strong view on is on undead being destroyed at 0hp: I definitely understand this as clarifying that undead always and automatically die at 0hp, unlike other NPCs, who can use the dying rules at the GM's discretion. I wouldn't interpret undead being destroyed as the body of an undead creature being destroyed. "Destroyed" is just a substitute for "killed" because strictly speaking an undead creature isn't alive. Megistone wrote:
I agree, mostly. But I can also see how someone could interpret this as the body disintegrating without the negative energy that animated it – or perhaps as a byproduct of that energy failing. And because of the slight ambiguity we are in a pickle. B/Cthe GM ruled that way in the moment the rogue was given the “dead” status on his sheet. If we can find a rule or clarification that directly negates that then we can retro and just proceed as normal. Otherwise we need to figure out if we can use a 7th level or 9th level resurrection ritual with the fame or not.
We were playing a Pathfinder Society game this past Saturday. Our silly rogue with a climb speed went over a wall and ended up engaging with some wights while we walked around. He died... dummy. Here is the thing - he got turned into a wight. We killed the baddies (including our turned wight friend) and now we don't know if we can bring him back. He has enough fame (54 fame) to purchase a Resurrection Plan. Resurrection Plan:
The Pathfinder Society is invested in keeping its most successful agents in the field. You can purchase a resurrection ritual for 25 Fame. If you are in a rush to return to life and cannot wait the day for this ritual to be conducted, you can instead purchase a casting of the raise dead spell for 50 Fame. But can you resurrect him? Resurrection ritual requires "the target’s body to be present and relatively intact". Raise Dead says the same thing. Resurrection Ritual:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 415
PFS Note All characters have access to resurrect Cast 1 day; Cost diamonds worth a total value of 75 gp × the target’s level; Secondary Casters 2 Primary Check Religion (expert); Secondary Checks Medicine, Society Range 10 feet; Target(s) 1 dead creature of up to 10th level You attempt to call forth the target’s soul and return it to its body. This requires the target’s body to be present and relatively intact. The target must have died within the past year. If Pharasma has decided that the target’s time has come or the target doesn’t wish to return, this ritual automatically fails, but you discover this after the successful Religion check and can end the ritual without paying the cost. Critical Success You resurrect the target. They return to life with full Hit Points and the same spells prepared and points in their pools they had when they died, and still suffering from any long-term debilitations of the old body. The target meets an agent of their deity during the resurrection who inspires them, granting them a +1 status bonus to attack rolls, Perception, saving throws, and skill checks for 1 week. The target is also permanently changed in some way by their time in the afterlife, such as gaining a slight personality shift, a streak of white in the hair, or a strange new birthmark.
Raise Dead:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 362
PFS Note All characters have access to raise dead Traditions divine Cast 10 minutes (material, somatic, verbal); Cost diamonds worth a total value of the target's level (minimum 1) x 200 gp Range 10 feet; Targets 1 dead creature of 13th level or lower You attempt to call forth the dead creature's soul, requiring the creature's body to be present and relatively intact. The creature must have died within the past 3 days. If Pharasma has decided that the creature's time has come (at the GM's discretion), or if the creature doesn't wish to return to life, this spell automatically fails, but the diamonds aren't consumed in the casting. If the spell is successful, the creature returns to life with 1 Hit Point, no spells prepared or spell slots available, no points in any pools or any other daily resources, and still with any long-term debilitations of the old body. The time spent in the Boneyard leaves the target temporarily debilitated, making it clumsy 2, drained 2, and enfeebled 2 for 1 week; these conditions can't be removed or reduced by any means until the week has passed. The creature is also permanently changed by its time in the afterlife, such as a slight personality shift, a streak of white in the hair, or a strange new birthmark.
Creatures with the undead trait are "destroyed" at 0 Hit Points. Someone argued this just meant they skipped the "dying" stages, but all NPCs do that anyway. The GM concluded that we brought back a pile of his ashes. undead:
Once living, these creatures were infused after death with negative energy and soul-corrupting evil magic. When reduced to 0 Hit Points, an undead creature is destroyed. Undead creatures are damaged by positive energy, are healed by negative energy, and don’t benefit from healing effects. So I guess the first question is Do we have a body? If we do then the way forward is simple. Resurrection works. If his undead body was destroyed, however, we have issues. Also, Someone pointed out later that weekend that Resurrection ritual can be used without a body when heightened enough. At 7th level you only need a small portion. At 9th level you don't need anything. And Resurrection plan does not specify the level it is cast at. If you were level 11 or above then I would assume it would automatically be heightened, or else it wouldn't work. He was level 5 when he died. So the second question is What level is Resurrection Ritual cast at in PFS? We really like to go by RAW and official clarifications as much as possible. Since it's PFS reducing table variation is pretty important. I say this b/c really I want to avoid discussing opinions and house rules are not a thing at all. Thanks for reading, and I appreciate any constructive replies!
Yea the assurance/athletics thing, while neat in theory, is not often viable against enemies of an equal level. This is a spreadsheet I borrowed from TQOmins and modified when I was thinking about taking assurance in athletics or intimidate. It only goes up to level 14 b/c I play PFS. Against mooks (lower level enemies) it shouldn't matter. You should't need to trip them as their AC is already low. Better to just use another attack with MAP imo. The average Reflex save for a monster of equal level is ALWAYS higher than your "assurance roll". At levels 3, 7, 8, and 10 the average reflex save is within 2 of an assurance roll so if you are flanking them (or they have frighten/sicked/clumsy 2) then it will work a little more than half the time. It will sometimes work if they have low reflex. Those exist but its uncommon. The BEST level for this is 7 (when you become master) and only 10 out of 29 monsters have a reflex low enough to automatically succeed with assurance. I did not account for size so many of those may just be too big to trip anyway. Will saves are a little better. While it's always higher than assurance it is much closer and low will saves are more common than low reflex saves. BUT the critical success of intimidate (especially with certain class abilities or feats) and the fact that it does not suffer from MAP I think outweighs the benefit here.
Ravingdork wrote:
Not 100% of the time. If you are a rogue and you go first, YES! If you end your movement in a square that threatens them and has any concealment/cover (wall, fog, bushes, darkness, corners), YES! If you are invisible, they are blind, or other effects are inhibiting all their precise senses, YES! If you have a feat or special ability (Spring from Shadows, very sneaky feat), YES! If you are using a range weapon, YES! If they are in the open, you have no special feats/abilities, nothing is impeding precise senses, and you end your movement without cover/concealment, No :(
Aratorin wrote: I think in any situation where the enemy is completely unaware, it is totally reasonable to let one side make attacks before Initiative is rolled. Man I both agree and disagree. I think this is how it SHOULD be b/c it feels intuitive. I liked 1e surprise rounds. It made sense to me. 2e seems to go out of it's way to eliminate surprise rounds though - or at least free attacks. It feels off to me b/c it's hard to create a cohesive story in the theater of your mind with these rules. Here is the rule for starting initiative in your example. "Call for initiative ... when a creature on one side decides to take action against the other." So as soon as an attack was declared by the ranger (on lets say against an orc) initiative is suppose to start. The only thing I can find hinting at a surprise round is in a side bar and seems to support that there are no free attacks. It says: "If the players have the drop on their foes, you usually can let each character cast one spell or prepare in some similar way, then roll initiative. Casting advantageous spells before a fight (sometimes called “pre-buffing”) gives the characters a big advantage, since they can spend more combat rounds on offensive actions instead of preparatory ones." So the ranger could use a magic weapon scroll, quaff a potion, or something similar for free. But not get a free attack on the orc. It also seems like he doesn't get a full round (3 actions) of buffs. It's just 1 thing. That could be getting into a stance or applying a poison. The rules are vague here and I don't like that. In 2e it seems they want to limit the advantages you get for attacking an unaware opponent to:
The advantages they don't allow in 2e are:
In your example, if we go by the rules as I understand them, the Ranger says he is shooting the orc and this triggers initiative. The ranger has the option of rolling stealth for his initiative (and gets a +2-4 bonus for cover!). Assuming he does that stealth/initiative check is compared to the orcs Perception DC. Lets assume the ranger gets an 18 vs the orc's Perception DC of 15. But the orc rolls an initiative of 20. Porridge linked the relevant rules from the GMG - rules I was completely unaware of before I saw his comment. These really helped me clarify surprise rounds... or the lack thereof. "To determine whether someone is undetected by other
So the Ranger is undetected but apparently is not unnoticed. That later part is where I struggle. In this example I'd be Ok saying that the orc saw the glint of the arrowhead or something. That rectifies the theater of the mind issue for me. But what if the Ranger was invisible? He is 600 feet away. It's a stretch to say the orc heard him. And what if the Ranger is silenced also, like in the original post? This is where I have issue b/c I can't find rules to govern this. If you counter all of your opponents senses but the rules say once initiative starts you are no longer unnoticed then how do you make the narrative fit? He smelled him from 600 ft? I suppose at this point you either house rule it or (in my case as I play PFS) you just throw your hands up and say "Magic". One could argue that they are pretty vague in describing vague senses (huk huk) so it's not limited to smell. The orc just had an instinct. A gut feeling he was not just being observed but was in danger. A... Danger sense. Ok we shouldn't call it that or we are just going to create more confusion. So now I'm brought back to the original example in this thread. The rogue is invisible and silenced. He declares an ambush on the goblins. Initiative starts. The two goblins that go first know something is up. In this case I'd say they smell human stench or something. It's a vague sense and it fits exactly with what is suppose to happen - the rogue is undetected but not unnoticed. Now here is a question I'd have about that situation. Using RAW does the rogue even need to roll stealth? They don't have either a precise or imprecise sense that can be used against him. If he runs up and starts attacking them does he remain undetected? I feel like he does by RAW. Vague senses can at best make a target undetected and those are all the senses left to the goblins. I suppose that's the point of having GM rulings but I really like to have explicit rules with which to work with.
In my mind the lycanthrope shield block issue doesn't mean that the shurikan hits the shield and b/c of the weakness some damage magically goes through. I imagine it's more like the werewolf deflects the shurikan with their shield so it only grazes them. If they were human then that graze would be meaningless. The lycan, however, still takes damage even from that minor graze. A shield block doesn't mean it intercepted the entire attack, it often just reduces it's impact. The shuriken attack could do 6 damage and the shield block could reduce that to 1. The shuriken DID hit the shield but then deflected off to still do minor damage - less than if the shield hadn't intercepted it. That's how I justify it in the theatre of my mind at least. YMMV.
Timeshadow wrote: If the opponents are completely unaware of the player/s then I'd still consider them flat footed to the rogue's attacks. Now it's completely different if the enemies know there is something hidden approaching them. They can take defensive actions go back to back raise shields take experimental shots at likely squares or take actions to search. Agreed. I don't think anyone thinks otherwise. The question from the OP is when do you start initiative? After you make a "free" attack (no rules for this)? Or do you roll initiative when you declare your attack and you can only follow through on said attack on your turn? And in the later case if the enemy goes first but you are still undetected does that mean they do nothing? By definition undetected means they have no idea you are around. Or are you suddenly unnoticed even though they haven't beaten any of your checks? There are "vague senses" but the rules don't give us much to go by. And to add to OP my question is how is it handled if you are invisible AND silenced? Neither their precise sense or imprecise sense can observe you. I'd say as soon as you attack them you are now "unnoticed" but I don't think you could ever be brought to hidden.
Aratorin wrote: It's not really a punishment though. Once they take their turn, they are no longer susceptible to a Rogue's Surprise Attack feature, as they have already acted. In addition, if the have Attack of Opportunity, or some other useful reaction, they will be able to use it, whereas their slower compatriots won't. They also have the option of delaying. They can go at any point they want. If they know something is up then going first isn't a disadvantage at all. But that's only if you rule that they "know something is up" which to me reads that the PC is undetected. If all of their precise and imprecise senses (vision + hearing) are countered how does the PC go from unnoticed to undetected? That's my biggest concern with the original example. Invisibility + silence. I guess you could say they saw a footprint or something. But then that's the hidden condition, not undetected. And then we go round and round again trying to interpret rules that don't come out and give us the answer.
I don't think wizard dedication = universalist. Other dedications will specify when you get to pick a "type" from that class. Wizard doesn't. If you think that the wizard dedication makes you a "universalist" would you also argue that means you get drain bonded item for each spell level, a free wizard class feat, and an extra level spell in your book? It seems like an attempt at wordplay, not an attempt to use RAW.
These were fun to read! Thanks for putting this together, I'm sure it took awhile. It does prompt 1 question from me. I may be misunderstanding the rules so help me out. In encounter 1 "A Sticky Mess" green gets blinded and then on it's turn it uses the seek action 3 times. They are only described as "giant mutant insects" so maybe they don't have hearing. But assuming they DO have hearing (or another imprecise sense) do they really have to make take seek actions? From what I've been able to put together everyone is hidden to them now (not unobserved). Green should still know the squares the party occupies until a PC takes an action to hide from him. He can't improve the hidden condition to observed - assuming sight are their only precise sense. Either that or the room is REALLY noisy, enough to drown out the sounds of combat. I didn't get that impression.
I really love my familiar. It is a skunk named flower and he has become the party mascot and really done work for us. I was hesitant at first to go the familiar wizard route but super happy I did. Here are some of the benefits: * You get another perception roll. Level + your primary stat on a bonus roll is just good. * You can combine flight + enlarge to either ride a flying mount early or to ferry your party to hard to reach places. The "Mount" trait on animal companions is not required for familiars unless your GM makes their own rules. * Manual dexterity! This is what makes them great. Turn them into an ambulance. Have them always carry 2 potions, typically 1 healing and 1 situational. Ally goes down? 1 action on your part sends the familiar to your ally and then feeds them the potion. Feeding a potion is now 1 action, not a full round. This has been a HUGE advantage for us. Between this and battle medicine bringing back 2 downed allies in 1 turn has changed a couple rough fights. Another option is to let him ride someone else and then the familiar can use it's 2 actions to feed that person 2 potions at the start of a big fight hands free. Obviously costs the master 1 action. * During exploration mine either seeks or is on alert for the initiative bonus. Some DM's will not allow this saying you have to use the minion trait rules for exploration - but those rules only apply to combat RAW. All up to your GM. * Extra focus, Extra Reagents, and spell battery are a small bonus to your finite resources. * Spell Delivery has merit for the right build. I never take it. * Scent. This is so situational. Usually does nothing - but sometimes you get close enough (30 ft) to a stealthing or invisible enemy and they are automatically hidden. Familiar knows the square. Pairs well with speech (point out action) but even without the master will get a sudden alert. And their are some advantages familiars have over 1e. The dying system makes them much more durable. Their AC scales with yours and when they do take a big hit (they are pretty low HP) they aren't dead, just dying 1 and at 0. If it does die replacing them doesn't cost anything but time. 1e familiars are stronger of course but 2e is a much different game and small bonuses are more meaningful. A 1e familiar in the 2e system would be bonkers. 2e familiars do have some issues. * There is a feat tax. Some classes have some pretty lack luster feats early though so it's not as bad depending. * There is a second feat tax. 2 abilities is limiting. Manual Dexterity is a must IMO. It's the biggest advantage they offer. If you are an alchemist lab assistant is a must. Flier is really good. Fast movement gives them more options at being the party ambulance. Being able to speak is often useful. * Your choices are limited thematically. When you pick your familiar it's important to go with something mundane so you aren't forced to take any abilities. I chose skunk bc there isn't a skunk stat block. I can give it whatever. That makes things like birds, bats, snakes, rats, geckos, scorpions, spiders and the like bad choices unfortunately. I wish they didn't have that rule. Sometimes you just want an animal b/c it fits your character thematically but then you HAVE to give it burrow or darkvision. Ultimately you can't compare 1e and 2e familiars. They are birds of another feather. Small advantages are big advantages in 2e. For myself I am completely sold on familiars being worth it. But I wouldn't run one unless I could get 4 abilities.
Man that's a tough question. Some spells will tell you like charm. On a crit success they are aware of the spell and it's purpose. By that metric getting hit with a spell does not necessarily mean you're aware. It's not a great guideline but it's a starting point. After that your DM will have to decide. If it was me it would depend on whether the target saw you cast the spell and if the spell effects (visual, auditory, damaging, etc). Obviously they would be aware they just got hit by a fireball. If they aren't moving they may not notice they just got slowed. Pretty subjective. Personally I'm a fan of having a rule for everything but not everyone likes that.
My group had a similar discussion. Granted this is a PFS group so their are more guidelines to work with. Someone brought up using crafting to "earn" more money than earn income. I think they misunderstood how crafting worked. The problems with using crafting to earn income are: * You first spend 4 days to get get started. Your not earning income during this time.
Eventually this led to a discussion on the merits of earn income, experienced smuggler, and the Horizon Hunter boon (earn income at your level). For those interested I made a spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DsRZK6Qalft6WIEp-hGdBYc6TKJIHlWImkF SVlzcrHU/edit?usp=sharing It's not pretty but it got my point across. One of the interesting things we learned is that masterwork tools never pay for themselves. Again this is PFS so you cap out at level 11. From levels 1-11 the difference between -2, -1, and 0 level tasks ends up earning about 110 more gold. Great for Horizon hunters but probably not worth the feat for Experienced Smugglers. In a home brew game downtime has way to many variables so you will have to decide for yourself. You may get years of downtime. In PFS you end up getting 24 days every level, or 50% more if you don't have a school.
If you are a Primal Companion Hunter can you give the "Claws" evolution to a an Animal Companion who already has arms but not the "Arms" evolution? For instance can you give an Ape or a Trex Claws? But RAW I would say no, it requires you to take the arms evolution. But by that rule set you also can't take any evolution that require a "base form". By RAI I'm not sure. Opinions?
If that's legitimately how it is suppose to play out then: 1) I'm disappointed in whoever designed it. Mythic abilities are strong, obviously stronger than normal abilities. But this comes close to giving a character invulnerability. If it required 3 ranks in Legendary Weapon and making it a greater artifact it would still be one of the most powerful mythic abilities. But a Tier 1 could snag this. At tier 3 take Vanishing move and your killing demon lords at level 5. 2) I'll have to just flat ban it from my games. This makes me unhappy and the players unhappy. Boo.
You have already addressed this once before back in November but I was wondering if you would be willing to give a more detailed opinion. I realize this is an opinion, and your word is not necessarily law, but I hold it in high regard whenever I run across an issue like this. Undetectable:(Legendary Weapon Ability) This grants its bonded user the ability to become utterly undetectable while invisible. While invisible and in physical contact with this item, the bonded creature can't be detected or scryed by any method. As a DM I strive to play as RAW as possible to both avoid conflict and to give players a chance to make informed decisions. I hate using rule 0. I will, but not before I exhaust all other options. I think it is fair to say this stops spells like True Seeing, See Invis, etc. What about extraordinary abilities, like Scent, Blindsense, Blindsight, etc? I made a post in the Rules Section also but as I said your opinion holds great weight in my mind.
Undetectable: This grants its bonded user the ability to become utterly undetectable while invisible. While invisible and in physical contact with this item, the bonded creature can't be detected or scryed by any method. This is obnoxiously vague. As a DM I strive to play as RAW as possible to both avoid conflict and to give players a chance to make informed decisions. I hate using rule 0. I will, but not before I exhaust all other options. So I come to the PF community to ask if anyone has any experience or precedence in this situation. The only thing I can find is a brief post by James Jacobs. I think it is fair to say this stops spells like True Seeing, See Invis, etc. What about extraordinary abilities, like Scent, Blindsense, Blindsight, etc? How about a plain old fashion perception check? And if this does mean "utterly undetectable" does that mean that my PC Gunslinger can FRA the BBEG still wouldn't know where he is despite the noise and without "sniping"?
This is not about whether the increased AOO range stacks. IMO it does, but more importantly it has already been discussed in This Thread. My question is:
Snap Shot:
While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity. Improved Snap Shot:
You threaten an additional 10 feet with Snap Shot. Combat Patrol:
As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. By RAW it seems like you can. As per Combat Patrol you can "move as part of these attacks" but it doesn't say you need to move toward your target. RAI I think that is so a melee character can move up to someone to make their AOO - Its a combat patrol after all. On a ranged PC though this can be either amazing or problematic, depending on your point of view. If you CAN move anywhere you want as part of the AOO does that mean you can dodge attacks because AOO's resolve first. For instance, if an allosaurus pounces you could you use this to move perpendicular to their charge - thus giving you an AOO and negating their attack. Or move out the AOE of a spell being cast near you?
Contingency:
You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead. You must pay any costs associated with the companion spell when you cast contingency.
The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level). The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being "cast" instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur. If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when triggered. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to. Mythic Contingency:
You can cast this spell on yourself or another willing creature as if the spell had a range of touch. A companion spell placed on another creature must be a spell from you, not from the creature, and affects that creature when triggered. The target can have only one contingency spell upon it at a time unless it also knows mythic contingency. The question is: Can the companion spell used with Mythic Contingency be a "Personal" range spell when cast on another person? My opinion is no - I think Mythic Contingency only changes the Contingency range from Personal to Touch, not the Companion Spell. The target of the companion spell would be invalid and couldn't be cast. I think Mythic Contingency only changes the Contingency range from Personal to Touch. Some of my players argue that the Companion Spell is part of the casting of Contingency (which is touch). Anyone know anything we don't? =)
I wonder how the Monastic Legacy feat would work with Brother of the Seal. Monastic Legacy:
Quote: Add half the levels you have in classes other than monk to your monk level to determine your effective monk level for your base unarmed strike damage. Brother of the Seal:
Quote: A Brother of the Seal's class levels stack with any monk levels for the purposes of determining his flurry of blows, stunning fist, and unarmed strike class features (including determining damage dealt by his unarmed strike attacks). Would a level 11 character (5 Monk, 6 Brother of the Seal) have the unarmed damage of a level 14 monk?
Quote: You can always take a move action in place of a standard action. If a Move+Standard was intended to combine to create a FRA then why isn't it directly stated. The Standard to Move is directly stated. Of course one could also argue that it isn't directly stated b/c at the time you couldn't gain an extra move and standard in a round so there was no need for it. So no Joy there imo. Quote: A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action. This is a useful bit as well as I reread it. If a FRA was created by combining your Standard+Move then why would there be a need to point this out? You would have already burned them for your FRA. Instead it seems that if you perform a FRA then you still have your Standard + Move but not the time to use them. Hence you choose one or the other. In the case of Mythic Haste/Amazing Initiative your using special abilities to speed up your actions to squeeze in more stuff. To me that seems pretty conclusive that Standard + Move =/= FRA.
I guess at this point it comes down to interpretating one line referencing Full-Round actions. It is the only piece of language that I can find that might possibly support Standard+Move=FRA. Quote: you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. This is the grey area to me. I can read that two ways: 1) You have the choice of a Standard+Move or a FRA. The two are separate choices and are not related to each other beyond proximity. 2) In a normal round you use a Standard and Move action, or you may use them to instead perform a FRA. I don't feel this is the intention but I can certainly understand how it can be interpreted this way. ChrisRevocateur wrote:
I agree with most of this. There isn't a statement of equivalency. One can argue it is implied, which is the issue, but I don't think that is the case here. Especially given the language in the other lines referencing Full-Round Actions. I'm not sure the duration of the actions support either argument, however. One could use it to argue the opposite point. If a Standard+Move = 6 seconds and a FRA = 6 Seconds then Standard+Move=FRA. But you do point out the rules lack any direct language indicating equivalency. I appreciate your post.
Artanthos wrote:
I'm OK with that for two reasons. 1) If a rule drives players in a certain direction that's just game design. In this case driving players to Mythic Vital Strike has no relevance on the interpretation of the rules in my opinion. 2) From a balance perspective at least that is a feat tax to do absurd damage. And it would only be the equivalent of 3 attacks rather than 6 with a 13 BAB.
Again lets not get hung up on the Gunslinger spoiler. I just wanted to offer context. The thread isn't about him but rather about the definition of a Full-Round Action. Obviously both Darkstar and Mathwei agree with my interpretation:
But I don't think that Mathwei's Quote is the "Plain as Day" answer we are looking for. In fact that quote is the one piece of evidence that someone might use to justify the extra Full-Round. Mathwei wrote: In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. I can see that being interpreted either way.
I'm running a Mythic Game as my players requested (Regretfully) and I'm close to making a ruling my players will not enjoy. Before I do so, however, I want opinions/interpretations from the community. Can you use Mythic Haste in combination with Amazing Initiative to gain a second full round action? Full Round Action:
There are several "definitions" in the combat section:
A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step. In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action. Mythic Haste:
Affected creatures gain an additional move action each round. the movement speed increase changes to 50 feet, to a maximum of three times the creature's normal speed for that movement type. Amazing Initiative:
At 2nd tier, you gain a bonus on initiative checks equal to your mythic tier. In addition, as a free action on your turn, you can expend one use of mythic power to take an additional standard action during that turn. This additional standard action can't be used to cast a spell. You can't gain an extra action in this way more than once per round. I think some might take the first two bolded sections to mean if you take a full round action you can't use the Move or Standard action from the Mythic abilities. I would disagree with that b/c I think they are the "Normal" and Mythic Haste/Amazing Initiative are the exceptions. So my question then becomes: Does a Standard Action + a Move Action = a Full-Round Action? No where in RAW does it come straight out and say this is the case. But it does strongly imply that is the case (evidenced by the third bolded section). I realize I could simply "Rule 0" that you can't gain a second Full-Round action, you simply get another Standard and another Move in addition to a Full-Round. But I prefer to have something with which to support my decision when I present it to the players. No one enjoys DM-Zilla. If anyone has anything to contribute to this topic, one way or the other, I'd appreciate your views. If interested this is an example of why it has become an issue. But please, NO comments on the following spoiler. I'm just offering some context. I don't want it to derail the thread. Medieval Machine Guns: Our Mythic Party is currently level 13 and Mythic Tier 4. It includes a Gunslinger (Musket Master) and the support Wizard.
Once hasted (36 round duration thanks to Arcane Endurance, Orange Ioun Stone, and Rod of Extend) the Gunslinger will take two full round attacks using Mythic Rapid Shot and Mythic Deadly Aim. His Path abilities give him 110-140 foot Move speed while hasted (Impossible Speed), the ability to move before or after a full-round attack (Fleet Warrior), and a range increment of 200 feet (Limitless Range). If you don't see the issue yet let me explain. With TWO full-round actions his attack looks like 19/19/19/19/14/9 19/19/19/14/9 against TOUCH AC if the target is withing 200 ft. In addition he can move before or after each attack for 110 feet, a total of 220 feet of movement. Each hit (which is basically ALL of them unless he rolls a 1 - No misfire for a level 13 Musket Master) does 1d12 + 27 damage. He has improved point blank and clustered shots so DR/Concealment is basically ignored. Assuming 5% miss rate he averages 318.25 damage a round not counting his 19-20 X 4 Crits. The BBEG's don't even get to open their mouths for an evil monologue before they are a puddle of goo. I wouldn't care so much (Just throw in extra baddies) but he really out shines the rest of the party and no one came to watch "The One Man Show" Now I realize that: 1) Gunslingers are overpowered. My mistake there.
So lets not get off topic. The focus of this thread is Does a Standard Action + a Move Action = a Full-Round Action?. I just wanted to offer some context so you understand why I'm bringing this up. And while that example is by far my biggest problem, it doesn't stop there.
I will have to disagree with the above poster on a couple things. Advanced Firearms use Metal Cartridges Only as ammunition. Metal Cartridges are alchemical cartridges. Therefore I strongly feel that this is already included in their action to load. Otherwise an advanced firearm would ALWAYS be a free action and never a move action to load. Of course this is up to your GM to interpret, but I feel confident this is how it is meant to be played. Secondly, by RAW, Rapid Reload has no affect on Advanced Firearms. It does not reduce the step to reload a firearm. Instead it specifies what action it is to load based on whether the firearm is one or two handed. A one handed Firearm becomes a move action to load and a two handed firearm becomes a standard action to load with Rapid reload. Yes I realize this is backwards. Rapid Reload (Again by RAW) actually increases the time it takes to reload a two handed firearm. Technically you can never load an Advanced Firearm as a free action using rapid reload. However, this is something that the GM is welcome to house rule. Many do. I am personally of the opinion that Rapid Reload was never meant to be used with Advanced Firearms, but that is my interpretation. You will have to discuss this with your GM. Just be careful... Having an 80ft Range increment TOUCH ATTACK that does 1d12X4 and adds your dex to damage on a full BAB class is a very slippery slope to walk on. This leads many to the question: What is the point of Advanced Firearms then? And its a good question to ask. A full BAB class that can't reload as a free action is diminished greatly. Most come to the conclusion that it is meant to be used with abilities like Dead Shot and large chambers. The advantage the Advanced Firearms have here is confirming as touch attacks at any range, higher ammo capacity, and never blowing up in your face. Personally the gunslinger I played stayed with early firearms so that he could reload as a free action and take advantage of Rapid Shot, High BAB, and Snapshot.
rkraus2 wrote:
Yes I'm definitely stealing this. It falls under "Giving player's the small moments" that really makes them feel heroic. That and giving reasonable and consistent DCs. We have a DM notorious for settings DC's based on the players current modifier or when trying to put the story on rails. If you have +5 the DC is 15, if you have +20 the DC is 30... But I'm off topic. This is a great way to encourage creative problem solving and entertaining role-playing. Hopefully by giving small bonuses and being clear about the DCs/Consequences it will mitigate the negative impact of failures and make the "dice" the enemy, not myself. The DM is a player not the competition! Mark Hoover wrote: "not every plan will work, not every roll will succeed; my job however is to encourage my players to keep trying." I like that phrasing a lot, thank you. "Not every plan will work nor can every roll succeed. I promise, however, to encourage players to keep trying and reward creativity despite the dice"
Lamontius wrote:
I took out the specific classes. I wanted to be general for the most part and your right I shouldn't scare anyone away from a class they want to play. In the second case I wanted to keep specifics to better demonstrate my meaning. Some of the players will be newer and less familiar with the linear fighter/quadratic wizard concept. But after I thought about it I decided to drop that too and just rely on our "Character Creation Party" as a time to explain in more detail, as well as assure them that I won't mettle unless a player feels his class is being overshadowed. Little Skylark wrote: Maybe you could include something about that not every thing always has to be fun, somewhere in the "No Accomplishmen without challenge". Meaning that when a fight is really hard it might be frustrating and not fun at that moment but will reward it's self in the end. Yes, this particular line was difficult to write (in fact I've rewritten it several times). I've been unable to really convey what I mean in a single line. I don't want it to make the players feel like I'm going to be a hardass - thats not the idea. I just want them to know that the path of least resistance offers shallow rewards and I will sometimes need to use "tough love". To be honest I think I might want to soften the language, keeping the idea in the Mission Statement but better explaining it in a more comprehensive format elsewhere. For instance the way I describe Player Death and my method for character recreation offers the players more insight into my purpose. Ultimately tho I may end up scrapping the Idea all together, once I sit down with the players and come to a consensus on what their feelings are. After all, as mentioned, I want to avoid creating the game that I want to play in, instead focusing on creating a game that my players want to play in.
Whether it was balanced or not all comes down to the level increase in my opinion. I think it should be atleast +2, but possibly more. A clever player (or very experienced player) would be pretty good at guessing the weak save of a creature. An animal? Hit it with a will save. Outsider? Smack it with a Fort save. Undead? Go for reflex. This of course isn't 100% accurate but is still a relatively easy baseline to follow. This gets worse depending on how your group identifies monsters and/or metagames. When you compare this to Heighten Spell you can get a better idea of what its increase should be. Its not uncommon for a bad save to be 6 points less than a strong save (even more at higher levels) and if a player is good at figuring out what that weak save is then its almost like adding +6 to the DC of a spell with 1 metamagic. Now granted sometimes this metamagic will work against itself. If you prepare a Fort Save Fireball and run into a creature with a weak reflex save then its actually made the spell worse while taking up a higher level slot. But if you also happen to prepare normal fireballs with Will-Save-Fireballs then you have a tool for everything... Or if you happen to be a spontaneous caster. While I havn't given you a straight answer, I hope this helps you decide how strong you think the feat is. And as for name, My vote is Adaptive Spell!
I've spent the last several years playing with the same dozen players in multiple basement campaigns. From this I've learned a lot about qualities of both Good DM's and Bad DM's (not mutually exclusive qualities in the same person) and have been thinking about what makes a DM great. What I decided is that often a DM is his own worst enemy, playing to his preference rather than to his player's personalities. With that in mind, and me on the Eve of my first campaign as DM, I created a Mission Statement to give each of my players. My hope is that it will give myself a guide to work with while at the same time arming my players with a strong tool to they can use to promote an enjoyable game. Some of you may consider this ridiculous... no doubt you are used to a group of players who work well together. To you I say I am jealous, but the people at "my" table (while all great friends) are very different Role Players. We have a mixed group of hard-core in-character story focused role players, combat specialized min-maxing power gamers, light hearted humor driven social players, and everything in between. There is no avoiding the "mixed bag" that will be our group. What I want from the PF community is useful feedback on my concept of a "Mission Statement". What would you change, add, or consider unnecessary (If used at all)? All constructive feedback is greatly appreciated! And if anyone cares, my campaign notes are hosted at Obsidian Portal Here (and a direct link to my Mission Statement). Your welcome peruse and get a feel for what I hope to achieve as a DM. My Mission Statement: The number one goal in this campaign is for everyone to have fun. Everything else comes second. No matter my successes, if this goal is not met I have failed at my job as a story teller. Unfortunately this means walking a very fine line. Every player is different – each with their own goals, desires, and preferred RPG style. In addition it is also hard to resist a DM’s natural desire to push their own agenda. To help me overcome these challenges and achieve unilateral player enjoyment I will attempt to create a guide I can use as my compass in leading our adventure. Realizing that I am flawed, I promise to my players that I will use this guide to keep true to our primary goal. It is my hope that every player will remind me when I am not living up to this promise in order to promote open communication and structured enjoyment for everyone. 1 - IS THIS FUN? It’s a simple rule and should be the question I ask myself every time
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