Insain Dragoon's page

Slithery D wrote:

Occult Adventures and Ultimate Intrigue were great books

Overall I like them too but I can only say that as of this moment. Who knows how I'll feel after they too get their 'scorched earth/nuke from space' errata. Going by past experience, whatever I enjoy in them will get nerfed hard if I wait long enough.

Yeah, I like a lot of stuff about both those books.

But I'm afraid post errata we'll have composite blasts become talents you have to pay for, or the Useful vigilante talents will give smaller benefits.

Maybe the decent feats will get turned into prone shooters.

I don't trust Paizo errata.

I stopped buying Paizo a while ago. Now I just buy 3PP from Drivethrurpg since Paizo stopped deserving money

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Overall the errata was a failure.

To you maybe. To the vast majority of others, things got an improvement.

Are there now more useful items in the book than in the previous printing?

No.

It doesn't matter what other people think, they're wrong if they construe a book that has less useful pages than pre-errata as a success.

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Why would I spend 50 bucks on a hardcover when the majority of its content is almost useless?

So much hyperbole in this thread.

Not even 1% of the material was changed. So no one would consider that majority.

The goal in errata for broken thing (broken as in terrible or overpowered) should be to change the item to a state where it keeps the fluff of the thing while giving a useful benefit.

Yeah, not even 1% of the material was changed. Some overpowered stuff was deleted from the game, lots of underpowered stuff is still present and wasting page space.

Overall the errata was a failure.

Nicos wrote:

PFS already can do it without messing with the options for everyone else.

Yes and PFS does do just that.

But the options changed were not changed for PFS's benefit. But for the health and desire of the game for everyone else.

I don't believe that the changes made to the Jingasa succeeded at improving the "health" of the game or by the desires of "everyone else."

The changes are an obvious knee jerk reaction as opposed to a pre-meditated and game conscious change. The goal in errata for broken thing (broken as in terrible or overpowered) should be to change the item to a state where it keeps the fluff of the thing while giving a useful benefit.

Did they do this for Jingasa? No. They instead created a new item that has no reason to exist in the world of Golarian or Pathfinder.

Did they do this in a multitude of other erratas that people have complained about? No. Not for most.

The errata makes books less valuable by making less and less of the pages contain material that people would use. Why would I spend 50 bucks on a hardcover when the majority of its content is almost useless?

James Risner wrote:

Insain Dragoon wrote:

(This is something that Pre-written adventures often lack since they assume a party of PCs that haven't heavily specialized.)

This is true of all PFS, all Adventure Paths, and all other modules.

Which is the problem. The highly specialized is often where you need to seek out things to tone down.

PFS already can do it without messing with the options for everyone else.

I've avoided PFS like the plague.

A high AC character are generally countered by enemies with high CMB and maneuvers to take advantage of it, DR, spell casters who don't use wimpy spells, multiple distracting enemies screening for their higher level masters, and decent terrain.

How often do PFS scenarios employ that?

James Risner wrote:

I'm just trying to show that the game is "healthier" with it no longer a luck bonus.

Yes, no one ever using an option again is "healthier" indeed. Let's not forget that the flavor of the item was nerfed as well. I think "Jingasa of the Soldier with Buyer's Remorse" is the best new name I've seen for the item.

"Jingasa of the Wizard who should have taken Craft Ring"

I don't like taking the average for monster CMB because things with average or middling CMB don't do combat maneuvers.

Brute Ogre with Dirty Fighting and a Improved Combat maneuver feat can beat your CMB on a 10, which is perfect. Give em a Long spear so they can do it from 20 ft away.

So a CR 9 (APL+2) encounter I'd run to give the players a decent challenge would be 2 modified Ogre Brutes, a level 6 Sorcerer who tricked them into servitude, and a level 5 Fighter Archer bodyguard of the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer would use the Ogres and archer as cover and use their spells to support his allies or hinder his foes (Create Pit, Haste, Levitate on self to keep out of melee, ect), Archer would target squishy PCs to keep them either out of combat LOS or make it dangerous to exist, the two Ogres would basically stand ahead of the two smaller allies and do their best to keep you guys out of melee with their support while using superior melee range to hurt you guys/crowd control.

Trip and Disarm would be the likely feats for the Ogres.

Not all fights would be like this, but a few, the goal is to make a player feel good about their choices, but prevent them from cake walking everything. To balance this out some fights would be against either lots of mooks or a few melee power houses, none of whom can penetrate your mighty guard. Sometimes you have the opportunity to feel like a God among men, sometimes the fights swing the other way and you need to rely on your allies to make it through.

(This is something that Pre-written adventures often lack since they assume a party of PCs that haven't heavily specialized.)

CMD 28 at level 7 is not weak.

Still, I don't see a problem with the build outside PFS stuff, much less with the jingasa. The game should not be balanced against the most optimized thing you can do, and certainly it is not or the most broken things would not be printing again and again with every printing of the core rulebook.

Considering how much he invested into CMD it shouldn't be weak, but it's not mid 30s. It's still in the range that stuff, like a CR6 Ogre brute, could succeed at combat maneuvers.

If the DM had been GMing this party for a while said Ogre Brute could be given a long spear, replace the skill focus perception+cleave with Dirty Fighting and an Improved combat maneuver feat. Simple and easy change, suddenly we have an enemy that can successfully engage the player and perform X combat maneuver on a 10+.

I agree 100% that the build is not OP outside PFS. At most Fate's Favored should be pruned from the game or be made to apply to only 1 bonus a day. Also I could see an argument for the Jingaza to either go up in cost or have the bonus changed to Insight/competence/morale.

Insain Dragoon wrote:

He seams pretty weak to touch attacks, combat maneuvers, enemies who care not about combat maneuvers, spells, and terrain. I fail to see how this heavily specialized character is a problem.

Touch attacks, sure.

His CMD was mid to high 30's, so not weak to Combat Maneuvers.

Spell casters can't cast without a spell component pouch and can't deal with a grapple much.

Feather Step ignored terrain, so charge in difficult terrain. Nerfed now.

Most GM's considered the PC a problem for the NPC's.

My math on your posted build is only about 28. Maybe it's that high when you have combat expertise and fighting defensively up, but that's a big change. Dude you can't just say "my defenses are X and my offenses are Y" when they physically can't be both at the same time.

So yes, you are in fact weak against combat maneuvers unless you choose to have no offense for the turn.

Strange that you assume a spell caster is just instantly in your melee range for you to molest. Are you literally fighting these guys in blank rooms 4v1?

Feather Step boots were fine, they maybe were under costed at worst. Additionally terrain means more than just rough terrain. Blocked charge lanes, cover, enemies being above you, and heck enemies screening are all terrain.

Yes scenarios are broken, we all already know this. When enemies don't have the ability to fight anything but AC that does not mean the PC is a problem.

This all distracts from the primary problem though.

Paizo would rather remove an item from the game than spend the effort to fix something. I know that sometimes it's hard to imagine that this is supposed to be an imaginary world, but it is. Why would anyone in that world create an item like the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier? It's expensive, it's worse than a cheap ring, and it can only be used once. Did they just look at the Ring of Protection, think "I can do better!" then proceed to poop out an inferior and significantly less useful product?

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Where did that -6 penalty for combat expertise and fighting defensively go?

If I needed 39 AC, I'd add them.

If I didn't, I wouldn't.

In short, Roland is an example that you nerf to suit the optimized and not the average.

Roland was nerfed on Jingasa, Feather Step Slippers, Flurry of Maneuvers, and Cap of the Freethinker.

He seams pretty weak to touch attacks, combat maneuvers, enemies who care not about combat maneuvers, spells, and terrain. I fail to see how this heavily specialized character is a problem.

Well outside of Fates Favored existing.

Where did that -6 penalty for combat expertise and fighting defensively go?

At least it's in a player companion and safe from errata.

Yeah the Godhand is absolutely super cool!

I thought it was a spontaneous caster because it has no ability to save spells outside what it knows from class level. It didn't make sense to be a prepared caster without any method of learning new spells outside of character levels.

I'll disagree on having to focus on Charisma more. I would likely start with a 14 or 16 no matter which kind of God hand. Magus spells that at good don't use DCs, so there isn't a reason to have a prioritized casting stat.

I agree that Overdrive is cool, but I don't see myself using it super often because of the risks involved (Use against Bosses, ignore vs mooks) while spellstrike and spell combat have use in many situations and don't increase the risk of control loss. Basically safer.

Due to the very combat oriented nature of the magus spell list I see it as a much stronger option, especially with spell combat. Sure Overdrive is cool, but opening a combat by casting Haste via spell combat and full attacking seems a lot better.

I think that for that sifnificant feat investment and character level it's appropriate. At this point creatures with multiple natural attacks and enemies with iteratives show up.

Purchased and very happy with the base class! I don't have any complaints on that front, real A+ work on par with my favorites from Gonzo 2 and some of your other works.

The archetype Magehand... not so much.

The Magehand idea is great and the execution is almost solid, but it runs into these problems.

1. It doesn't trade anything to gain spells.

2. The spell casting section makes the class seem like a prepared caster, but the charts imply the class is a spontaneous caster.

3. Almost anything it does trade is an about even trade.

4. Full BAB class with access to 6th level spells.

Even as a spontaneous caster I think the Magehand archetype is well above the curve for a 6t level caster and is definitely a stronger pick than a base Godhand.

My sides.
Orbit.

I think it's funny that so many people are arguing against meaningful changes in errata and prefer changes that make the game overall worse by decreasing diversity, limit role play, and make their books worth less overall.

That still sounds like a much better alternative to removing it from the game. It would have saved them a lot of space if they just replaced the Jingaza with "super cool looking hat that can be sold for 2500g" instead of the waste of page space that's there currently.

Additionally at higher levels the light armor users catch up since a Mithril chain shirt allows +6 from dex (10 total) while full plate has only +1 from dex (10 total).

Sure you can get a mithril set of full plate, but at the level you can afford that you'd already have other armor you invested in that would need selling.

Generally the characters I've seen with the most impressive ACs are either Hunters or Ranger/Slayers using the combat style with shield+sword 2WF.

James you keep mentioning that the errata was a positive thing. How so? From what I understand this errata did very little to make bad items viable and did a lot to make good items into bad items.

Is your definition of positive "more reason to just funnel gold into your big six"?

"What's a Paladin"

Sundakan wrote:

Name these "dozen useful hats", because after the Cap of the Free Thinker and Jingasa were nerfed I can't think of a single one worth wasting the cash on.

I did in another thread.

Objectively, if every person that had a Jingasa goes to no hat, there is not a net decrease in diversity. There is an equal transfer of diversity from "hat" to "no hat". If even one of those people decides, "the hat of disguise is awesome", you have produced a net increase in the diversity of head wear.

Again, this argument makes zero sense.

So obviously the best option is nerf everything as opposed to buffing the bad items?

Paizo had the opportunity to nerf Jingaza in a perfectly reasonable way (like removing the luck bonus to AC) while buffing other items and thus create an increase in diversity.

Instead they essentially removed Jingasa from the game whilst leaving other options equally as s&$+ty as they were previously.

Insain Dragoon wrote:

James Risner wrote:

changes are all ultimately a good thing.

That is 100% false.

Items getting removed from the game (as many of these essentially were) is not ultimately a good thing. At most they needed to be nerfed, not outright destroyed.

I get that you think so. That doesn't change that I believe it's a good thing most of the time.

Would I like to build more powered characters? Yes
Will I continue to build powered characters? Yes
Newer characters will still push the envelope, but will be less broken. Which is a good thing. I still get the pleasure from reaching the limit/threshold.

Why do you think this is about creating powerful characters? You really shouldn't obsess over making overpowered characters. There's so much more that this system has to offe outside that unhealthy obsession.

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Problem isn't so much as balance, but when one choice becomes so good, that it effectively closes out all other choices, because it's now a "must have" The original Crane Wing is a textbook example of this.

+1

Which is something many of us will come to realize over time, the changes are all ultimately a good thing.

That is 100% false.

Items getting removed from the game (as many of these essentially were) is not ultimately a good thing. At most they needed to be nerfed, not outright destroyed.

Quick Runner Shirt got off easy it still has a use.

Many of the others are worth less than blank page space.

The Warder is your friend.

It really isn't. Dont bring a Warder to a GM unless you want them to hate you.

There are plenty of 3PP that do feature martials with good will saves and I would be more than happy to tell you about them in either another thread or PMs so we dont derail.

It's almost like you need to roleplay to benefit from role play!

If you want your Paladin to have legitimate authority talk to your GM. Don't assume. We all know about people who assume right?

If the game was designed around PFS, than PFS would not have it's own section of campaign-specific home rules.

To further support this, it didn't look like the PFS organizers were happy with this errata either since the items Paizo smashed are getting full refunds for the players at PFS.

I guess the follow up article about inquisitors not actually being able to be neither inquisitive nor carry out inquiries nor Inquisitions....since no rules actually give them any authority to do so....

ignore the fluff in the description... Nothing to see here...

If you wanna be an Inquisitor of a certain sect then you may want o actually talk to your GM about how to do that instead of just walking into a crime scene on a random session and demanding to see the evidence.

Establish yourself before you become a fool.

dragonsspear wrote:

So is buying paizo products only to be told nothing you wanted it for is usable anymore.

Ultimate Equipment contains literally thousands of items. The errata touches maybe a few dozen of them. And of the ones that it *does* touch, a significant percentage of the changes are adding information to cover use cases that weren't clear before; correcting cases of conflicting data between tables and other places; minor price changes to bring things in line with other items; and fixing other errors that virtually every reasonable person is going to see as reasonable. But for the sake of arguing your point, let's go ahead and assume that every change that doesn't fit into one of those categories is a completely subjective design change that decreases the usability of the item—we're now talking about a fraction of one percent of those thousands of items.

Careful throwing out that bathwater—I think there's still a baby in there.

Yet somehow you managed to take the most popular and enjoyed items in the book and threw them out with the bathwater too.

I just think it's strange that the first response to finding out an item is popular is "guess we better destroy it" as opposed to "why are people spending gold on this item as opposed to saving for another +1 to their big six?"

It would have made way more sense to use errata to buff all these items people just pretend don't exist and sprinkle some nerfs on the ones that really needed them. Yeah Jingasa was a bit too good, but just removing the luck bonus to AC would have been enough to keep it relevant. Instead you made it have absolutely no place as a player option.

I heavily suggest using the automatic bonus progression.

I'm pretty excited for this honestly. I would likely be interested in running stuff for a theoretical 3PP Society at my LGS if you get this idea off the ground in a way that can help 3PPs spread their love.

What would be the difference in terms of character creation for the Hard and Soft points?

For example if Hard Points restricted us to feats/spells/talents from 3PP with no access to classes I wouldn't be surprised to see the Hard Points as the less popular option.

I still think the best method is to have a baseline of books and then allow DMs of different areas to specify which books they want added to their region. If someone moves regions they could bring someone from baseline options or play a pregen.

Ok, so you can choose to unload a barrage of Finishers against a single target, save up through methods then unleash a finisher suited to ruining a tough enemy (Fighting defensively to stall then unleashing a super touch finisher), or to build it up against the enemy minions, Sentai Style, before unleashing a big finish on the bad guy.

I like how the mechanic was executed to give so many permutations :)

So I was looking at the Henshin Hero and I was wondering what was the rationale behind having the Finishing Move have no Tension cost?

Is the finisher supposed to be the equivalent of Weapon Training or Favored Enemy as a primary damage class feature?

Its incidentally more meta to assume you wont fface underwater combat and skip !making preparations for it so you can maximize other areas.

When you consider the swim rules underwater combat is essentially a fools game without a swim speed.

Swim rules say you can move up to half your base speed with a sucessful swim check, cannot charge, and are essentially kiteable for eternity.

It's no more meta than trying to get winged boots, unless your goal is to become dead weight in a very dangerous situation.

Get a cloak of the manta ray so underwater stuff doesnt destroy you.

Since Gonzo 2 already has such an extensive review I'll put this into my review queue above it! Though any reviews I work on will have to come after June 8th, my final final of the semester.

That was an April Fools day joke released April 1st.

In that case I think the first season may best be products that don't intoduce new subsystems, but introduce new and exciting classes.

Stuff like Genius Games products, Liber Influxus, Alternate Path series from LRGG,ect.

A combination of "Player provide" and "seasonal themes" eill fix that. A GM eont have to learn Psionics till the season that includes that. Following the season if a GM likes it maybe they can add it to the permanent stable.

Just to restate my position as a consumer and occasional freelancer

I think the idea of a living campaign or at least some sort of 3PP organized play is a great idea. I also think that if it's implemented even halfway decently it could do a lot to help get more people into 3PP in game stores.

I also think that if it only uses spells, feats, and archetypes from 3PP that the living campaign will be an utter failure as the best and most interesting things in third party land are the unique subsystems and classes.

People aren't gonna be lured in by "Bravery Feats" no matter how high quality they are. What they will be lured in by is the the mysteries of the Masquerade Reveler, the Iron Man suits of an Aegis, the shining white Necromancers honoring their ancestors, the airships buzzing through the skies, the Gladiators battling to the cheers and jeers of an unseen audience, or the Element Enhanced Martial arts of a Mystic.

That will be more difficult since some systems don't play well with others at all, but those don't have to be included on the list.

Also a small part of me hopes that some books with alternative skill rules will be allowed, such as Dragon Tiger Ox Wire Fighting acrobatics, since base Pathfinder acrobatics are absolute ass

Also as far as I saw only one writer (he is not the head honcho at DSP) seemed truly against the idea. All the others seemed either for it or skeptical, but not not outright against the idea.

Sounds like you guys are having a blast :)

I think a more bottom up implementation would be useful here, where local "captains" would create their own strict or loose method of character monitoring. If someone is traveling then they could have their captain scan and email the sheet to another captain.

Lets face it, the player base will be a lot smaller than PFS, so we should take advantage of that to make it more personal instead of systamized.

I don't want to bog down this necroed discussion by going farther in that direction, but if you want to continue we can continue in another thread suited for such a discussion.

The post I directly linked to is a very explicit explanation of contributing. I do believe your player is able to contribute to Way of the Wicked, but I don't believe his character class is contributing anything that any other class couldn't.

I like the idea of "seasons" where we vote on stuff like setting books and splatbooks to be allowed.

We can have a High Seas season for example and theme it with Cerulean Seas, Vehicle rules from Skyborn, stuff from Razor Coast, stuff from Freeport, and a variety of 3PP crunch books for Ocean and port adventures.

Sci Fi season with Psionics, Technology supplements, ect

It could be a good way to manage content.

Several 3PP that do small adventures could make the play materials and we could use some existing adventures if so allowed. It could make them a lot of money if everyone running actually buys said adventures.

I don't think the idea needs to be immediately derided and discarded, but it will need some serious planning in order to make the idea presentable to 3PPs.

I don't want to be that guy, but this really needs to be said based on what I see in your party comp.

1. AntiPaladin
Our group saw the same opportunity and jumped on it! A real Anti-paladin? Finally! Halfway through book two the player was frustrated that his Anti-Paladin had no real use outside of smite and overall the class is just a less viable Paladin. Spell list with few useful spells, not many good class skills, the Touch thing is way less useful than Lay on hands+mercies.

and I quote "I felt like an NPC." I'd suggest an evil Warpriest.

2. Fighter
The challenges in these books will blow that character away and not even halfway through book one will he find himself with the class least able to contribute to the plot. If he insits on Playing Fighter then I hope he's a high optimization player with access to the most recent splat books for keeping Fighters almost relevant.

I don't know what would fit with your player, but I suggest Battle Lord or something from Alternate Paths Martial Characters.

I only ever got to the end of book 2, but I can say that book 2 will be very unfriendly to characters who have no ways of interacting with the world that aren't skills or a full attack.