Please reconsider Press to the Wall.

[Charon's Little Helper]

The feat is fine. Rather situational actually; I don't think that I'd bother.

If I didn't have a consistent flank buddy as a rogue, I'd probably aim for a build which can get SA more consistently than Press to the Wall does. I like Moonlight Stalker Feint builds which drop smoke pellets on the ground myself.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Mr. Bonkers wrote:

Since my fellow martial in that scenario was a Spring Attacker Fighter build, my Press to the Wall could have just been a spotlight case.

Outshining a Spring Attacker in damage isn't generally very difficult.

Spring Attack can be cool/fun, but high damage it isn't.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

It's a gateway for whirlwind attack with lunge and reach weapons

[plaidwandering]

caps wrote:

PFS Scenarios that have challenging combats are definitely the exception rather than the rule.

Ya, but when they do...it's usually a doozy

heck, I can think of a 5-6 encounter that would wreck this guy...and it only needs to roll a 6 to hit him.

[hasteroth]

Covent wrote:

Your build above is say +14/+14/+9/+9/+4 with I am assuming maybe 1d8 + (4d6 sneak) + 11. (Hit: 8 BaB + 2 Weapon + 5 strength + 1 Weapon Focus) (1d8 spiked shield [4.5] + 4d6 sneak [14] + 5 strength + 2 weapon + 4 power attack)

So against a CR 10 monster with AC according to the bestiary table DPR is as follows.

PC: 54.2065

A 15 PB TWF fighter with Kukri has: 63.18

I understand that it feels strong to you but try switching out to a two hander build for a season or two and see if you still agree.

That feat is honestly just ok and I would hate to see even more things nerfed for PFS concerns.

I don't mean to be dismissive but if it is causing you issues I would say that is more an artifact of PFS than the feat needing a nerf.

Considering my Druid when Wildshaped into a Dire Tiger at level 8 has a DPR of 72.555 when charging (against a CR 8 monster)... I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the aforementioned Rogue is NOT overpowered. Granted that is ONLY when charging.

(This is due to a bizarre synergy with Ascetic Style, Dragon Style, Lion Shaman Archetype and a multiclass into Master of Many Styles Monk)

[Legio_MCMLXXXVII]

I've never met a scenario I couldn't solo. I'm sure it's out there, but I certainly haven't encountered it yet. This feat honestly seems pretty weak.

I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure that my Summoner would blow that DPR out of the water at level 10. 1d3+1 augmented Celestial Lions seems like a bad way to go out. Just the static modifiers on three smiting lions overwhelm the average DPR of this rogue, and most level appropriate enemies. Three attacks at about +13 all adds up to a world of hurt, especially with a damage bonus of +17 per hit against evil enemies.

[caps]

plaidwandering wrote:

caps wrote:

PFS Scenarios that have challenging combats are definitely the exception rather than the rule.

Ya, but when they do...it's usually a doozy

heck, I can think of a 5-6 encounter that would wreck this guy...and it only needs to roll a 6 to hit him.

True. The Devil We Know parts 1-3 are a cakewalk, and then part 4 has multiple TPK-level-lethal encounters. We had to run away from one and come back more prepared; still almost TPKed the second time around. Then another encounter ended with all but one of us in negative HP. The last guy had to run away.

[Blueskier]

If "Starts a ridiculous penis measuring contest by dismissing a fellow gamer's char" was an option for flagging a post, all moderators would have to work overtime

[hasteroth]

Blueskier wrote:

If "Starts a ridiculous penis measuring contest by dismissing a fellow gamer's char" was an option for flagging a post, all moderators would have to work overtime

Eh, penis measuring aside. High-DPR builds usually lack the out of combat utility that others do. My Druid for example was built for combat, nothing else... My first time minmaxing a character like that.

The aforementioned Rogue has decent DPR, and has the ability to output said DPR more frequently as he is less reliant on his buddies to flank with him. Plus we can probably assume the Rogue is a competent skill-monkey or face. My point being that DPR shouldn't be looked at as the only measure of quality for a character.

[Avoron]

hasteroth wrote:

High-DPR builds usually lack the out of combat utility that others do. My Druid for example was built for combat, nothing else...

I'm having a hard time envisioning a full-caster with access to fourth level spells and spontaneous summoning having trouble with out-of-combat utility.

[hasteroth]

Avoron wrote:

hasteroth wrote:

High-DPR builds usually lack the out of combat utility that others do. My Druid for example was built for combat, nothing else...

I'm having a hard time envisioning a full-caster with access to fourth level spells and spontaneous summoning having trouble with out-of-combat utility.

Hyper-specialized multiclass. No 4th level spells. Out of combat utility is fairly limited; only decent skills are Survival, Knowledge Nature, Perception and Handle Animal; spells prepared are usually self-buffs (I didn't count those when calculating earlier DPR, I also didn't count the Animal Companion), but there is some utility available with 3rd and lower spells if I prepare utility spells in the morning (if I know I'll need them). This is a PFS character BTW.

[HWalsh]

Well when I compare this to say, my character's damage output at the moment, I am not seeing a problem.

So let us compare this to say, a Paladin, who is getting full attacks.

Paladin with Hurtful/Cornugon Smash at say, level 10.

BAB +10
Strength 20 (+5)
Charisma also 20 (+5)

(This is with items and such.)

Intimidate is a class feature, due to trait, and has full ranks in it.

Greatsword +2

Normal attack cycle is: +17/+12
When Cornugon goes off (and at a +18 that is fairly often) I get an extra +17 in there.

Even without smiting or anything, this guy hits for:
2d6+9 damage, or Power Attacks for 2d6+18 - This averages around 25 damage per shot. So 50 DPR when it can full attack, or up to 75 DPR if it can also Cornugon.

So this seems comparable, considering how many feats you had to spend.

-----

If we take off Hurtful/Cornugon and just have the Paladin blow a Smite (of which has has 4/Day, or if he's OoV a LOT per day) he's going to be hitting for an average of 70 DPR *after* DR is factored on 2 attacks (80 DPR in the first round if it is vulnerable to that double bonus on the first strike.)

Normal Attack Cycle being +23/+17 at that point (+20/+14 on the Power Attack)

-----

Looking at your build it looks like I am seeing that your probably at 1d8+6+5d6 damage? I don't see Power Attack or Piranha Strike so...

1d8 is an average of 4-5 damage
5d6 is an average of 16 damage
+6 base... So taking the highest here we are looking at: 5 +16 +6 damage, or only 27 Damage per hit? Using your absolutely most powerful attack in the best possible situation?

I mean, I am not knocking it, it is very decent. Compare it to a Paladin that can do 35 Damage per hit and ignore DR? For a character who took exactly 1 damage feat? You specced everything to do this one thing... You are barely out-notching a character who put nothing into it...

This just seems like average level 10 melee damage output.

Good job though! You made a Rogue that is a good stand up combatant! That is something to be proud of. However it is so many more elements than just one feat at work that makes your build function.

[Captain K.]

The question here appears not to be the very competent rogue, but the rest of the party. What are they all doing? Negative Initiative? No spells or buffs or arrows or swords?

[Create Mr. Pitt]

This feels a lot like the most subtle trolling I've ever seen. It's a PFS GM complaining about a feat that makes one of the weaker classes stronger and a bit more versatile. It's jingasagate all over again!

[swoosh]

Create Mr. Pitt wrote:

This feels a lot like the most subtle trolling I've ever seen. It's a PFS GM complaining about a feat that makes one of the weaker classes stronger and a bit more versatile. It's jingasagate all over again!

A bit more versatile, yes, but stronger? Compare the DPR of a rogue with step up and PTTW and a rogue who's in a group with a decent melee presence for easy access to flanking. No change in damage.

Because that's the thing. Press isn't even a rogue buff, it's a patch so they don't suddenly become nonfunctional in groups who can't provide reasonable access to flanking or one reason or another.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

Yeah I was being generous to the argument. Just more adaptable. Let dazing or even persistent metamagic, or even just magic, or barbarian powers be your guide. All are significant;y more powerful than this feat, so I wouldn't worry over it.

[Insain Dragoon]

At least it's in a player companion and safe from errata.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Insain Dragoon wrote:

At least it's in a player companion and safe from errata.

Or is it...

That's what people thought about Fencing Grace!

Though really, even though it had a 1 AC nerf to my bard (had to change out my heavy shield to light), I'm glad that it ended up consistent with Slashing Grace.

In actuality, I seriously doubt that such a niche & rather well designed feat will be errata'd.

[Devilkiller]

It seems like a pretty good feat which might be useful even for other PCs besides Rogues (perhaps combined with Shield Slam). I don't think it needs to be nerfed though.

Since Ninjas can become invisible almost all the time at 10th level I don't see how this could be much more powerful in terms of allowing sneak attack damage, and it is clearly inferior in terms of defense. Sure, some monsters can see invisible, but some also aren't standing next to walls or trees. I've also seen Gang Up used pretty effectively for sneak attacking by non-Ninjas and at lower levels.

[Belle Sorciere]

I think people tend to be over-attuned to martial characters' power levels, so when a martial character's effectiveness is reasonable, someone is bound to see it as overpowered.

This doesn't look particularly overpowered, no more than having someone in the party to help the rogue flank reliably. Further, there are situations where it won't work.