Paladin is the only Full BAB class with a good will save and that makes me a sad panda.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I can only assume this was intentional design, but honestly I'd love to be able to play a martial tank with good mental saves that isn't limited to one alignment. The Bloodrager could've been the perfect opportunity to do that, but no, apparently martials can't have nice things.


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Annnnd there off


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Obviously you have to be stupid and weak of mind to be a martial, so you shouldn't have a good will save.

But more seriously, you would need to multiclass if you want a will save boost. It'll hurt your tank-progression, but you shouldn't be able to have all your bases covered without some investment.


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Avenger vigilante gets good will and reflex saves. Add a level of slayer and/or ranger, and all of your saves will be pretty good.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ultimate Intrigue has a feat called Improved Bravery that applies the bravery bonus against all mind-affecting effects, instead of just fear. However, the fighter needs a minimum of Cha 13.

Hope that helps!


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It is sort of strange given how common the warrior-hero who doesn't have fancy powers but does have near boundless grit and determination and an iron will is kind of a fantasy standard, but not in Pathfinder.


Yup, Paladin and now Avenger Vigilante are it.


I typically enjoy playing melee characters and I've always hated that saves are determined by your class. Every class should have 2 good saves and one bad save, and the player should decide what those are. It's ridiculous that you can't play a strong willed martial character in Pathfinder.

I always pump up my will save because I hate the thought of being mind controlled and running away like a punk, or turning against my party and full attacking a teammate into oblivion. It requires so much investment though, what a bummer.


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Beating A Dead Horse wrote:
Annnnd there they're off


The Warder is your friend.


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ericthecleric wrote:

Ultimate Intrigue has a feat called Improved Bravery that applies the bravery bonus against all mind-affecting effects, instead of just fear. However, the fighter needs a minimum of Cha 13.

Hope that helps!

Pfft, why even bother with that lame sauce.

Quote:
Armed Bravery (Ex): The fighter applies his bonus from bravery to Will saving throws. In addition, the DC of Intimidate checks to demoralize him increases by an amount equal to twice his bonus from bravery. The fighter must have the bravery class feature in order to select this option.

Advanced Weapon Training Option from Weapon Master's Handbook. No charisma needed.

Fighter with Armed Bravery
Paladins
Barbarian with Superstition
Vigilante
Core Monk (non-technically full BAB but pseudo full while Flurrying)

All have options to have strong Will Saves, even though they aren't part of the "base" of the class.


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HeHateMe wrote:

I typically enjoy playing melee characters and I've always hated that saves are determined by your class. Every class should have 2 good saves and one bad save, and the player should decide what those are. It's ridiculous that you can't play a strong willed martial character in Pathfinder.

I always pump up my will save because I hate the thought of being mind controlled and running away like a punk, or turning against my party and full attacking a teammate into oblivion. It requires so much investment though, what a bummer.

If players got to choose I'm pretty sure you'd see 80%+ going fort/will and the other 20% go ref/will cause they want to really make use of evasion.


Most people are aware that reflex saves are the best thing to fail at (general speaking) if you have to fail at one of the save types.

Fort saves kill you, Will saves kill your friends. Reflex saves...are usually just to halve damage.

Liberty's Edge

Play a martial inquisitor. Or a gunslinger.


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Claxon wrote:
ericthecleric wrote:

Ultimate Intrigue has a feat called Improved Bravery that applies the bravery bonus against all mind-affecting effects, instead of just fear. However, the fighter needs a minimum of Cha 13.

Hope that helps!

Pfft, why even bother with that lame sauce.

Quote:
Armed Bravery (Ex): The fighter applies his bonus from bravery to Will saving throws. In addition, the DC of Intimidate checks to demoralize him increases by an amount equal to twice his bonus from bravery. The fighter must have the bravery class feature in order to select this option.

Advanced Weapon Training Option from Weapon Master's Handbook. No charisma needed.

Fighter with Armed Bravery
Paladins
Barbarian with Superstition
Vigilante
Core Monk (non-technically full BAB but pseudo full while Flurrying)

All have options to have strong Will Saves, even though they aren't part of the "base" of the class.

Half the archetypes replace Bravery and those who doesn't, not really sure they're any good.

So you're stuck with only base fighter, unable to user archetypes

And please explain, who on hell did this Improved Bravery feat? It's the most horrible concept design.
First, there's 2 prerequisites, Bravery and charisma. CHARISMA? CHARISMA FOR WILL SAVES, please explain, how does this make sense?
Omg, the fighter is gonna get a bonus on will save, let's be careful and not make it op.
Meanwhile > Metamagic Dazing on a Rod.

Sometimes I really think design team just has a list filled with ways of screwing martials.

You know why I never play martials? They can't do jack. The Wizard is flying, you're a fighter trying to use a Bow with no dex, and fail miserably.


Well, first of all, you can't really compare a Paladin's saves to anyone else's. They have the best class feature when it comes to this.

But you seem to be underestimating a lot of other martial classes when it comes to Will saves. Barbarian and Bloodrager do gain a grand bonus to Will while in rage. It lags behind a bit, though, and stops at a +4 by level 20, meaning that a Paladin is ahead by +2.
Superstition brings the Barbarain up by an additional two (it covers about all Will saves possible). There's also the Clear Mind rage power.
Half of the Bloodrager Bloodlines also offer Iron Will as a Bloodline Feat.


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Claxon wrote:

Most people are aware that reflex saves are the best thing to fail at (general speaking) if you have to fail at one of the save types.

Fort saves kill you, Will saves kill your friends. Reflex saves...are usually just to halve damage.

While strictly true. I've also found that a lot of fort save effects can be dealt with other ways (poisons and diseases) and that reflex saves are ridiculously common. Saving for half damage (or no damage with evasion) might not sound like much, but when you roll that save two or three times more often it can add up.


The Gray Paladin lets you be NG or LN, and an Insinuator Antipaladin lets you be any Evil.

Liberty's Edge

the Unchained Monk would like a word with you.


Letric wrote:

Half the archetypes replace Bravery and those who doesn't, not really sure they're any good.

So you're stuck with only base fighter, unable to user archetypes

And please explain, who on hell did this Improved Bravery feat? It's the most horrible concept design.
First, there's 2 prerequisites, Bravery and charisma. CHARISMA? CHARISMA FOR WILL SAVES, please explain, how does this make sense?
Omg, the fighter is gonna get a bonus on will save, let's be careful and not make it op.
Meanwhile > Metamagic Dazing on a Rod.

Mutation warrior is a great archetype that doesn't replace bravery (for Armed Bravery, not for the BS Improved Bravery)

And it gives you access to flight. It's honestly one of the better archetypes available, and since you can get Bravery to all your Will Saves with AWT it actually gives good reason to not get rid of it in an archetype.

As for Dazing Spell metamagic, everyone knows that Dazing is broken as hell.


Pathfinder has weak Will save progression for most full BAB classes, but also class features or options to compensate:

* Barbarian: +2 to +4 Will during rage, plus Indomitable Will later on
* Fighter: enough feats to afford Iron Will and Improved Iron Will, nowadays there are also the two bravery feats already mentioned
* Ranger: needs Wis 14 for full spells anyway, headband of wisdom further improves spells and Will (buy it later than a cleric / druid, so it makes up only a small part of your wealth)
* Cavalier: few options here... Order of the Star gives +1 to +6 on all saves, but only against challenged foes
* Samurai: can reroll Will saves with resolve, later Honorable Stand and Greater Banner help
* Gunslinger: few options... can reroll saves at level 15, but more importantly she can try to kill everything before it casts a spell
* Bloodrager: rage bonus, also some bloodlines help
* Brawler: surprisingly few options in comparison to parent classes, bonus combat feats make taking Iron Will & improved version still easier
* Slayer: pretty much the same as brawler (well, he gets slayer talents instead of combat feats)
* Swashbuckler: Charmed Life helps, investing a bit into Cha (late headband) makes it better
* Unchained monk: good Wis anyway, Still Mind comes early on

If that's not enough, there are several races with save bonuses. Traits help a bit, and starting with a solid Wis score doesn't hurt. This way it won't matter much whether the full BAB class has a weak progression - your actual values can be fine.


Claxon wrote:
ericthecleric wrote:

Ultimate Intrigue has a feat called Improved Bravery that applies the bravery bonus against all mind-affecting effects, instead of just fear. However, the fighter needs a minimum of Cha 13.

Hope that helps!

Pfft, why even bother with that lame sauce.

Quote:
Armed Bravery (Ex): The fighter applies his bonus from bravery to Will saving throws. In addition, the DC of Intimidate checks to demoralize him increases by an amount equal to twice his bonus from bravery. The fighter must have the bravery class feature in order to select this option.

Advanced Weapon Training Option from Weapon Master's Handbook. No charisma needed.

Fighter with Armed Bravery
Paladins
Barbarian with Superstition
Vigilante
Core Monk (non-technically full BAB but pseudo full while Flurrying)

All have options to have strong Will Saves, even though they aren't part of the "base" of the class.

To be fair, Improved Bravery can be combined with Inspiring Bravery, which gives your Bravery bonus to every ally within 30 feet who can see or hear you while you're conscious and not stunned. If you have Improved Bravery, that means you can create an aura against mind-affecting effects, but I don't believe it works with Armed Bravery.

Improved Bravery does have the upside of being able to be taken at level 2, as well, while freeing up your fifth-level AWT feat for something like Versatile Training to improve your utility.

And charisma isn't that bad on something like a polearm fighter, who can go Versatile Training to gain BAB ranks in Diplomacy and Sense Motive.


Squiggit wrote:
It is sort of strange given how common the warrior-hero who doesn't have fancy powers but does have near boundless grit and determination and an iron will is kind of a fantasy standard, but not in Pathfinder.

The straight Fighter DOES get will bonuses vs. fear so the trope isn't completely left out in the cold. Also keep in mind that the martial's grit, is reflected in his better fort save compared to the wizard's.

The martial who gets dominated by the evil sorcerer or vampire, IS however an established fantasy/horror trope, which is fully supported in Pathfinder.


Occasionally, but often times the warrior's noted for their ability to just shrug off anything.

And you often see in fiction spellcasters falling prey to the lure of darkness or getting similarly tricked or controlled by some spell. Which will rarely happen in pathfinder either because they universally have great will.

though yeah, there are ways to get around it.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Grammar Cop wrote:
Beating A Dead Horse wrote:
Annnnd there they're off

And I think it should be First Call (To the Post) instead of Charge ...


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
It is sort of strange given how common the warrior-hero who doesn't have fancy powers but does have near boundless grit and determination and an iron will is kind of a fantasy standard, but not in Pathfinder.

The straight Fighter DOES get will bonuses vs. fear so the trope isn't completely left out in the cold. Also keep in mind that the martial's grit, is reflected in his better fort save compared to the wizard's.

The martial who gets dominated by the evil sorcerer or vampire, IS however an established fantasy/horror trope, which is fully supported in Pathfinder.

Is it? The fighter who slays the vampire or evil sorceror at the end of the book IS an established horror - fantasy trope for sure, the fighter getting dominated by said evildoers? Not so much. Unfortunately it seems to be a thing for D&D from 3rd ed on...

P.S.

As for the OP: play a martial dwarf fighter and you'll be good at saving against pretty much anything. If the fighter be a mutation warrior he'll also be able to be very competitive.

Liberty's Edge

Not full BAB... But a Melee focused Druid multiclass (with a level dip in Master of Many Styles Monk) has an excellent Will Save.


Gambit wrote:
The Warder is your friend.

It really isn't. Dont bring a Warder to a GM unless you want them to hate you.

There are plenty of 3PP that do feature martials with good will saves and I would be more than happy to tell you about them in either another thread or PMs so we dont derail.


Why would a GM hate you for playing that?


Swordjockey wrote:
the Unchained Monk would like a word with you.

And I would have a word with it. Why did it have to have a poor will save, again? We already knew from the base monk that 3 good saves an overpowered class do not make.


It's a paladin replacement. IF you look at the martial manuvers he gets, one of them is at 10th level, unlimited flight and a few other things.

It's designed as a TOme of Blades class replacement device. VERY strong, in comparison to a fighter, barb, or even ranger.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Claxon wrote:
Reflex saves...are usually just to halve damage.

Until you get hit with icy prison or chains of light.


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Poor will saving fighters... Boromir?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Reflex saves...are usually just to halve damage.
Until you get hit with icy prison or chains of light.

Or dazing fireball.

On topic, a 1 or 2 level dip in sohei monk is amazing for almost any martial. Bunch of bonus feats, +3 to all saves, and always act in the surprise round? Yes please.


Charlie Bell wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Reflex saves...are usually just to halve damage.
Until you get hit with icy prison or chains of light.

Or dazing fireball.

On topic, a 1 or 2 level dip in sohei monk is amazing for almost any martial. Bunch of bonus feats, +3 to all saves, and always act in the surprise round? Yes please.

@TOZ: Thats why I used the qualifier, usually.

@Charlie: And we all know that Dazing Spell is b##!&$@#.


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Akkurscid wrote:
Poor will saving fighters... Boromir?

He actually manage to resist the temptation of taking the ring for quite a long time. He just rolled a 1 that one time...


Squiggit wrote:

Occasionally, but often times the warrior's noted for their ability to just shrug off anything.

And you often see in fiction spellcasters falling prey to the lure of darkness or getting similarly tricked or controlled by some spell. Which will rarely happen in pathfinder either because they universally have great will.

though yeah, there are ways to get around it.

Magic is based on mental ability so good will kind of makes sense, more importantly, good fort or reflex really would not fit most casters at all. Fighters get to shrug things off using the fort save and they're not getting two good saves because most of the basic classes just sort of don't.


Squiggit wrote:

Occasionally, but often times the warrior's noted for their ability to just shrug off anything.

And you often see in fiction spellcasters falling prey to the lure of darkness or getting similarly tricked or controlled by some spell. Which will rarely happen in pathfinder either because they universally have great will.

though yeah, there are ways to get around it.

Actually, I don't think evil usually targets the will save. They just make lots and LOTS of Diplomacy checks. Why bring the spellcaster's will into things when you can just talk them into selling their soul for infernal power? After all, someone confident in resisting wiles and preparing charms to avoid being charmed might fall for ... mundane persuasion.

Still, I do wish some martials had better Will saves. (Then again, I'm biased as I've failed a few; just not enough to trigger TPK yet.) I think one of the modern d20-style games did give its martial class a good Will save (or at least a meh one), but I'd have to find that book again.


Gunslinger eh?


Try a barbarian.

My current PFS Barb (lvl 14) has great saves vs spells, SLAs, and SUs. Fort +26, Ref +16, Will +14 and I have not spent money to bump his saves with an enhancement bonus yet. If he fails any save vs a magical effect he can reroll it and if he makes that one gain temp hp. He is immune to evil based mind effects and has a ring of evasion. He is very hard to effect with any form of spell like or supernatural attack.


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Now come to think of it, with all fulltime casters (as far as I know) sport a nice full Will save, another classic trope of magic-users going nuts for knowing too much eldritch lore is debunked. What a shame...


Lucas Yew wrote:
Now come to think of it, with all fulltime casters (as far as I know) sport a nice full Will save, another classic trope of magic-users going nuts for knowing too much eldritch lore is debunked. What a shame...

That's more Cthulhu and less Merlin.

Merlin is basically the inspiration for wizards. And I don't recall Merlin going crazy (doesn't mean it wasn't in a story, just that its not what people think of when they think Merlin).

Basically the problem is there are so many tropes, that you will often find a trope and its anti-trope. So both can't be true.


Lucas Yew wrote:
Now come to think of it, with all fulltime casters (as far as I know) sport a nice full Will save, another classic trope of magic-users going nuts for knowing too much eldritch lore is debunked. What a shame...

This is a Lovecraft and Howard thing, not something thats prevalent in fantasy (especially high fantasy) in general.


Lucas Yew wrote:
Now come to think of it, with all fulltime casters (as far as I know) sport a nice full Will save, another classic trope of magic-users going nuts for knowing too much eldritch lore is debunked. What a shame...

Going nuts isn't so much a high fantasy thing, but becoming horribly corrupt and twisted as a result having so much arcane power at one's fingertips certainly is a high fantasy trope.


Lucas Yew wrote:
Now come to think of it, with all fulltime casters (as far as I know) sport a nice full Will save, another old trope of magic-users going nuts for knowing too much eldritch lore is debunked. What a shame...

There we go, no words without meaning in that sentence.


Lab_Rat wrote:

Try a barbarian.

My current PFS Barb (lvl 14) has great saves vs spells, SLAs, and SUs. Fort +26, Ref +16, Will +14 and I have not spent money to bump his saves with an enhancement bonus yet. If he fails any save vs a magical effect he can reroll it and if he makes that one gain temp hp. He is immune to evil based mind effects and has a ring of evasion. He is very hard to effect with any form of spell like or supernatural attack.

Same here, I even avoid stuff like Superstitious, but you can get enough bonuses to Will Saves that it's practically the same thing.

Even without Enchantments, Will Save is still the most valuable Save IMHO (if only barely), because it's basically the "default" magic Save. I do think it's fun to game expectations and use those few Reflex targeting spells/effects that are nasty and not just HP damage.

I would say that losing the Will Save is the thing I dislike most about Unchained Monk, and would be happier if they weakened it to "allow" for all Good Saves, e.g. lowering HD or something else.


Letric wrote:

Half the archetypes replace Bravery and those who doesn't, not really sure they're any good.

So you're stuck with only base fighter, unable to user archetypes

Vanilla Fighter is now serious contender with Weapon/Armor Training. Same goes for archetypes considered "weak" on their own, but who can qualify for some/both of those.

Quote:

And please explain, who on hell did this Improved Bravery feat? It

Omg, the's the most horrible concept design.
First, there's 2 prerequisites, Bravery and charisma. CHARISMA? CHARISMA FOR WILL SAVES, please explain, how does this make sense?

Using CHA on opposed "mental" checks is hardly far fetched. Paladin already applies it to Saves.

Quote:
Sometimes I really think design team just has a list filled with ways of screwing martials.

Yeah, victim-hood is SOOOO sexy.

Please post more of this here on Paizo's boards, I think it's a really fascinating line of thought that hasn't been explored much.


Frogsplosion wrote:
Going nuts isn't so much a high fantasy thing, but becoming horribly corrupt and twisted as a result having so much arcane power at one's fingertips certainly is a high fantasy trope.

There is the dual-Bloodline Sorceror who gets a Will penalty due to too much arcana messing them up.

And remember, Will Saves are not just "mental" focused, they pretty much are the default magic save for effects not clearly Fort/Ref related.
So magic users being good at those is pretty reasonable.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I tell you what, my knife fighter is going to love him some Armed Bravery.


Charlie Bell wrote:
On topic, a 1 or 2 level dip in sohei monk is amazing for almost any martial. Bunch of bonus feats, +3 to all saves, and always act in the surprise round? Yes please.

Yup. I think Chained Monk still rocks as dip material.

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