First Person Shooter's page

GinoA wrote:

Another question on this one. Does it affect normal, corporeal targets?

Only if they're made of ectoplasm.

Quote:

Purge Spirit: Purge spirit rips away at the target's spiritual substance, scattering it over a wide area and hampering the target's ability to reform. The target takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) and is staggered for one round. On a successful saving throw, the target takes half damage and is not staggered. This spell affects astrally projected creatures, ethereal creatures, haunts, incorporeal creatures, mediums channeling a spirit, and phantoms, and at the GM's discretion can affect other spirits or creatures made of ectoplasm. Incorporeal creatures take full damage from purge spirit.

It looks to me like the difference of opinion is whether the bolded sentence above should be read as:

This spell ONLY affects astrally projected creatures, ethereal creatures, haunts, incorporeal creatures, mediums channeling a spirit, and phantoms, and at the GM's discretion can affect other spirits or creatures made of ectoplasm.

or as:

This spell ALSO affects astrally projected creatures, ethereal creatures, haunts, incorporeal creatures, mediums channeling a spirit, and phantoms, and at the GM's discretion can affect other spirits or creatures made of ectoplasm.

Additionally, I disagree with Scavions' statement:
There are no creatures listed that are "Not normally targetable".

IMHO: all of the creatures on the list (and Haunts) are not "normally" targetable. Can any of them be shot with a Ray of Frost? Perhaps a Haunt, if it has a listed vulnerability - but that would not be "Normally". Incorporeal creatures would take 1/2 damage from it, so maybe? - but then again, that is IMHO not "normally targetable". I guess Phantoms would be targetable, if they were corporeal. "Ethereal creatures" could be targeted if the shooter were also ethereal. In fact all of the creatures on the list would be targetable with a simple ray of frost in the right circumstances. But not "normally".

Necroing this thread by a bit...

I think I am in agreement with "Doc the Grey" above...

the line from the spell that talks about what it effects...

"This spell affects astrally projected creatures, ethereal creatures, haunts, incorporeal creatures, mediums channeling a spirit, and phantoms, and at the GM's discretion can affect other spirits or creatures made of ectoplasm."

seems to include a lot of creatures not normally fully target able by spells. this to me seems to indicate that these creatures are called out as being included in the Target line in the "crunchy bits" above. Normally, without this line, those creatures would not be fully targetable correct?

Also, the inclusion of ethereal creatures means that if you have a normal human wizard who happens to be plane shifted, he becomes a viable target. Why is this? You can target him if he's ethereal, (or incorporeal, or astrally projected) but not if he is actually standing there beside you... why not?

Whereas, if it targets creatures (as the write-up - "the crunchy bits" says) it puts it about on the same power level as Bone Shatter - which does 1d6 per level and exhausted and gives a Fort save for half damage (and fatigued)...

If it doesn't work on "normal" creatures - does it effect creatures that are blinking with the spell blink, which are ethereal creatures 1/2 the time?

I'll just leave this here and move on...

Acme Disintegration Pistol.

Realizing that you are shooting to hit Touch AC, Precise Shot actually isn't a priority. Nice to have sure, but not really as needed as it is with other shooting types of PCs.

My first three feats were Improved Init., Accomplished Sneak Attacker, and Point Blank Shot (From the Rogue Talent: Combat Trick).

I've found that going first seems much more important. Catching the bad guy flatfooted means they don't count their dex to AC - which will give them something like a Touch AC of 10. A high Dex with +1 for a gold coin (or better) and +1 for Point Blank and you're going to be shooting at something like +8 to hit.

I don't have my books in front of me, what does Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel do for this build?

as to race - I could easily see this guy being a Tiefling... and at higher level having Fiend Sight twice. Shooting from the darkness and adding in his sneak dice...

@ First person Shooter.

your build dose sound fun

could it be done with A eldrtich scoundrel Rogue?

I actually don't know. perhaps I'll look into it.

It actually grew out of the thought experiment "how much can I get my INIT bonus to - and how fast?".

So once I had a first level Ifrit Wizard with a +19 INIT, I started looking at what in the world I could do with him. By now I'm 2/2 Wizard/Rogue and wondering if perhaps I should have made him 3/1 so that his 5th level could be Arcane Trickster.

It wasn't until his second game that I even discovered the spell coin shot, and at third that I got him the feat Rapid Shot to give him the 2 shots in the regular round.

More than likely I'll keep going up as a Rogue...

at 4th level the INIT bonus is +21, or +25 with Heightened Awairness... Dex+5, Wildfire Heart+4, Improved Init+4, Rabbit+4, Reactionary+2, 2nd level wiz+1, Ioun Stone +1... Soon he'll be using Blood Boiling pills to boost it another +2. OH! and his SLA is Reduce Person (Ifrit) to boost his Dex and add another +1.

^I just reread the post and realized that FPS way saying 3rd level character level (I misread it first as Wizard 3). At 3rd level, a 1 level dip in Wizard means only Rogue 2, which means Sneak Attack only +1d6 unless you blow a feat on Accomplished Sneak Attacker, which will then be dormant at every even-numbered level unless you dip 1 more level in a non-Sneak-Attack (or Slow-Sneak-Attack) class. (Alternatively, I guess you could use Snakebite Striker Brawler 1/Rogue 1/Wizard 1, since Snakebite Striker Brawler has a weird Sneak Attack progression, but I didn't see Snakebite Striker Brawler on the table.)

Yeah, you got it, though it’s two levels of wizard (prescience wizard) in order to get the bonus to Init. (Along with being an Ifrit, and having a Rabbit Familiar ... indeed most of the gimmicks to boost Init. That lets me introduce myself at the table with “Hi! I’m First!”).

I have an Anti-Gunman Mage...

"Hi! I'm First! Initiative was +19 at 1st level, but it went up from there), always goes in the surprise round (even if surpised), favorite spell is coin shot...

At third level will often throw gold coins for 1d8+2, and +2d6 sneak attack dice. One coin in the first (surprise round), then two more coins in the actual first round of combat (rapid shot). As the party scout, I often get 3 shots off before the target actually get's to go... (ranged touch attacks at 20' or less).

other players often mistake me for a gunslinger.

wow... I have an Anti-Gunman Mage...

"Hi! I'm First! Initiative of +19 at 1st level (goes up more after that), always goes in the surprise round, favorite spell is coin shot...

At third level will often throw gold coins for 1d8+2, +2d6 sneak attack dice, one in the first (surprise round), then two more coins in the actual first round of combat. Getting 3 shots off before the target actually get's to go...

other players often mistake me for a gunslinger.

This one is not exactly a "never see used" rule as much as a "never seen used CORRECTLY" rule.

Shooting from behind a corner. So many persons seem to have a problem with the cover rules for shooting...

Totally go ranged. There will always be another party member who wants to be in the front line, up on “bleeding edge” of the encounters.

As an investigator, you have Craft Alchemy, which would open up all the alchemical arrow possibilities. Raining Arrows alone are worth every copper piece you spend on them. And if something charges up to you, you either 5’ away to shot them, or, if they get more than 2 attacks, you just move away and shoot. Move back and shoot it with a Tangleshot arrow.

And i would rather go the Point Blank Shot/Deadly Aim feat path than the suggested one. Possibly going Rapid Shot before Percise Shot even.

Yes.

why would it NOT be?

A book, entitled "The Tactical Use of the Spell Magic Missile" which, when studied for some time (say 24 hours), has two effects - one known and one unknown.

Known: When casting the spell Magic Missile, the caster throws one additional missile.

Unknown: All missiles thrown do 1 HP less than normal (1d4 rather than 1d4+1).

The Tactics, once studied and learned, take a remove curse to unlearn. (and are unlikely to be discovered in the game).

I'm kind of in the school of anecdotal experiences isnt evidence of his usefulness. people might lie, misremember, embellish, or just get lucky, statistics dont. The combat statistics of Harsk dont seem to justify his use as a combat character. Yes he can do other things such as spot MECHANICAL traps (not magic), track, handle animals, serve as a "stealther" or whatever, but what he spends most of his feats on just arent worth it is the way it seems.

but you are willing to except anecdotal experiences as to his lack of usefulness?

so, let us check the numbers shell we?
among the Core 1st level pregens, he is only surpassed in ranged combat (with weapons) by Ezran using Hand of the Apprentice. He is only tied by Merisiel with a dagger.

Amiri? shortbow +2 for 1d6
Lem? sling +3 (1d3-1) with his singing he can get this up to +4 for 1d3
Kyra? sling +0 (1d4+2)
Lini? sling +2 (1d3-2)
Valeros? shortbow +3 (1d6)
Sajan? Shruiken +2 (1d2+3)
Sheelah? shortbow +1 for 1d6
Harsk? hvy xbow +4 for 1d10,
Merisiel? Dagger +4 (1d4)
Seoni? Dagger +2 (1d4) - but wait, she has acid splash so she would get a +2 ranged touch doing 1d3... (but ha! bad feats again - spell focus Evocation? what good is that at 1st level?)
Ezren? Lt Xbow +2 (1d8) ... he also has acid splash and spell focus evocation again... BUT WAIT! he also has Hand of the Apprentice! so he gets a +5 to hit with a ranged attack doing 1d6! We have a winner! Ezren! yeah! Looks like you should have taken the Wizard as "someone to handle ranged combat"...

can someone else check the rest of the Pregens? I'm sure if we check them ALL we can find someone better at shooting at 1st level... or with a higher damage potential? At range please, as he is built as a ranged Ranger...

Ok Egil - which Pre-Gen would be a better choice as "someone to handle ranged combat", at 1st level?

Amiri? shortbow +2 for 1d6 (a better weapon for her would be a Sling or Javelin)
Lem? sling +3 (1d3-1) with his singing he can get this up to +4 for 1d3
Kyra? sling +0 (1d4+2) (feats include Toughness by the way)
Lini? sling +2 (1d3-2)
Valeros? shortbow +3 (1d6) (again, a sling would at least do 1d4+3, and he has the feat toughness)
Sajan? Shruiken +2 (1d2+3) (not going to talk about feats here)
Sheelah? shortbow +1 for 1d6 (with a Javelin she would at least get her shield, and do 1d6+3)
Harsk? wait - you said he was unavailable (hvy xbow +4 for 1d10, with the feat Rapid Reload... so no point blank shot for him either)
Merisiel? Dagger +4 (1d4)... weapon focus for a feat...
Seoni? Dagger +2 (1d4) - but wait, she has acid splash so she would get a +2 ranged touch doing 1d3... (but ha! bad feats again - spell focus Evocation? what good is that at 1st level?)
Ezren? Lt Xbow +2 (1d8) ... he also has acid splash and spell focus evocation again... BUT WAIT! he also has Hand of the Apprentice! so he gets a +5 to hit with a ranged attack doing 1d6! We have a winner! Ezren! yeah! Looks like you should have taken the Wizard as "someone to handle ranged combat"...

"Hi! I'm First!" Yeah, I normally go first...

Ifrit Wizard/Rogue. NOT a gunslinger. I "shoot" with spells... normally coin shot, so I throw money at the monsters. But I can resort to rays or other spells...

And "it's all about going first" (I have a really high initiative - +20 or more at 2nd level) and getting that "first shot" off to get my sneak dice in. ;-)

First Person Shooter wrote:

Kevin Willis wrote:

First Person Shooter wrote:

But you can use a "found magic item" to get an NPC in game to supply you with information you want. ("What do you mean, give him the Cloak of Resistance!") Got it.

We are very much in shades of grey here, but you can't give an NPC a non-consumable item (unless you are willing to give up the gold reward you would have gotten for it at the end). It's no different from throwing the cloak into a river of lava; you lose treasure for doing so.

Consumable magic items are treated differently. Because the expectation is that the PCs will use them in the standard fashion (drink a potion, read a scroll, etc.). Are there other uses? Sure.

But again, Campaign Leadership doesn't want to have to make an exhaustive list of what is and isn't allowed because there will always be another edge case that isn't covered in the list. Paizo simply doesn't have the personnel resources required to get far enough into the weeds to keep the campaign wealth level equivalent around the world. So there's only two options: you can use consumables (however you want) without losing treasure or you lose money every time you do so much as drink a potion of cure light wounds you found in the adventure. Right now we can use consumables without penalty. I prefer that to the alternative.

and so...

** spoiler omitted **

...or is this an exception to the "you can't give an NPC a...

Actually, in your example, if you do that, you're supposed to cross the item off the chronicle sheet. So yes, there are written in repercussions for giving an NPC an item.

The players loose the access - but not the gold. If they use the item as suggested in the scenario, (as a bribe) they still receive the gold reward (83gp each for recovering the item - that they use later as a bribe). It is not a consumable, so "spending it" would be reducing the treasure reward... only it doesn't... but this is sort of a non-issue. No one wants to penalize beginning characters for doing "the right thing" - and not playing greedy murder-hobos. "Yeah, you did the GOOD thing there giving him the magic item, so I guess I'll reduce the gold you get on the Chronicle by 20%". No one does this. We let the players "spend the equipment"... Heck, the loss of the item was originally to be off-set by gaining access to a partially charged wand (per the author), but that seems to have been cut during pre-publish editing.

I'm not really upset by the way things are done now - it just strikes me as kind of odd that the players are allowed to "spend recovered equipment" for things like bribes, but are not allowed to use coins as weapons (because the destruction of the coins counts as "spending recovered money" which must be paid for out of final gold reward.).

And really - it's at most 30 gp per spell cast (used three attacks - and normally only 3 gp per spell cast), about what a flask of holy water costs. (Just remember - if you use up a recovered holy water flask attacking a monster, you don't have to pay for it, but if you use up a recovered gold piece attacking a monster, it comes out of party treasure).

;-)

First Person Shooter wrote:

But you can use a "found magic item" to get an NPC in game to supply you with information you want. ("What do you mean, give him the Cloak of Resistance!") Got it.

We are very much in shades of grey here, but you can't give an NPC a non-consumable item (unless you are willing to give up the gold reward you would have gotten for it at the end). It's no different from throwing the cloak into a river of lava; you lose treasure for doing so.

Consumable magic items are treated differently. Because the expectation is that the PCs will use them in the standard fashion (drink a potion, read a scroll, etc.). Are there other uses? Sure.

But again, Campaign Leadership doesn't want to have to make an exhaustive list of what is and isn't allowed because there will always be another edge case that isn't covered in the list. Paizo simply doesn't have the personnel resources required to get far enough into the weeds to keep the campaign wealth level equivalent around the world. So there's only two options: you can use consumables (however you want) without losing treasure or you lose money every time you do so much as drink a potion of cure light wounds you found in the adventure. Right now we can use consumables without penalty. I prefer that to the alternative.

and so...

...or is this an exception to the "you can't give an NPC a non-consumable item (unless you are willing to give up the gold reward you would have gotten for it at the end)."?

I can't find the post right now but one of the previous Campaign Coordinators (Mike Brock, I believe) confirmed that if you spend gold you find - or sell treasure then spend that gold - during the scenario it reduces the amount earned on the chronicle.

The reason was that a bright line needs to be drawn somewhere. Using the gold to pay off a planar ally was the extreme example. But you can lower that bar again and again. Needing an in-game restoration. How about an NPC casting heroes' feast? Transportation bribes? A couple of coins for coin shot? No matter where you put that line, there is going to legitimately be a use that is "just a little bit more, why not allow this one more thing?" So the line is drawn at Zero.

The rest of that post goes on to say (paraphrasing) "Yes, you are allowed to use found items. If it's too unfair that you can use items and not gold, we can explore the possibility of not allowing players to use items found in scenarios either."

Anyone able to find that post?

You cannot use "found money" to bribe an NPC in game to supply you with information you want. Got it. This would reduce the gold you earn during the adventure. unless you happen to be in the correct faction, have the faction card for season 8 and have completed 2 faction goals to earn the Slush Fund... then you are reimbursed the expenses..

But you can use a "found magic item" to get an NPC in game to supply you with information you want. ("What do you mean, give him the Cloak of Resistance!") Got it.

It just seems kind of weird that we can have PCs that throw treasure gained (like using Healing Potions for Healing bomb, or Scrolls with the Archetype that uses them for weapons/shields) - as long as that treasure you throw at the monster ISN'T money. I mean, the money isn't SPENT, it's used as a weapon.

But we can't use "found money" as weapons - that's using the money.

But then I also think it's kind of weird that we can use a Fly[/] potion we found, but we can't swap it at the local Potion shop for a [I]lesser restoration which is valued at less that half the cost.

The season 8 guide has this comment of page 19:

Season 8 Guide Guide wrote:

Expendables: Any wealth spent or resources expended during the course of an adventure must be tracked and recorded on either the Chronicle Sheet or Inventory Tracking Sheet as applicable.

It is ok for a character to sell plundered loot mid-adventure for some extra pocket change, but that spent resource is still an expense that is coming out of their pay. So that does not get them 'free' gold.

Now taking this into a tangent where there are some inconsistencies: players are not charged for consuming looted loot in other ways (potions, wands, sundered items), but they are penalized for consuming looted gold on 'non-permanent costs' (tolls, bribes, living expenses and such). So we have a case where they can consume a looted Cure Light Wounds Potion without penalty (25g value), but if they spend 25 looted gold on a bribe they must cover the cost. I'd like to hear if others find this inconsistent?

I actually hit this is an unusual way. I really like the spell coin shot, and use it a lot. Early on in my adventuring career the party recovered a stash of loot that included some scrolls, some Cure Light Wounds potions and some gold. The Alchemist in the party grabbed the potions to use with his discovery Healing Bomb (so he could throw them as part of a bomb). One of the other PCs picked up the scrolls - stating we could use them as bribes if nothing else... but when I scooped up a dozen of the gold pieces to use with the spell coin shot, it was explained that using those coins would reduce the party treasure (requiring us to calculate how to split 12 gp five ways - if I actually used all 12. If I only used 4, then we would all have our gold award reduced by 0.8 gp each). Rather than reduce the party gold, I just offered to reduce my own share by the 12 gp... which seemed to work, though the Judge stated he was being nice to allow me to use money that had not been awarded yet... as we didn't actually get access to the GP from the adventure until we got the chronicle at the end of the game....

Sense then I've been real careful to always keep 21 gp, 21 sp, and 21 pp on my PC - just so I have enough coins to use with the spell... realizing that I actually can't use the coins we find until after the game we find them in.

But it's ok to throw the CLW potions we find.

Heroes of the Streets, page 30, about half way down this page

Thanks! I need to correct a PC now... not sure how I can do this... maybe just restart him... crud

created him with a low strength, played him at 1st and then re-built him at 2nd to up his strength because of the penalty, only to have the penalty to go away after he is locked.... sigh

If Profession (teacher) or (tutor) is a thing, then I would say that's probably one.

Wizard is not a Craft or Profession though.

why wouldn't "Wizard" be a profession?

"Town Wizard" or "Court Wizard" could easily be a profession...IMHO.

But I guess YMMV.

so,... what profession WOULD count books as "tools of their trade"?

Teacher?

Wizard?

Coin Shot, so you can throw money at your problems...

In my group we simply don't track ammunition count of simple arrows, bolts or bullets. The game is about heroes saving the world, not about poor rangers counting their arrows. We assume, that you can always buy new ones in towns, recycle enough ones from the fight, craft them or find them as loot.

it is such a classic to have the "shooter hero" come up empty... How many stories have the scene with the hero "...low on ammo..." - heck, we all recognized it from the title of this thread! "...... Ammo's running low....".

Yeah, "The game is about heroes..." and sometimes they run out of ammo and have to do something heroic...

Let's try this for another item the hero's often run shot on..."In my group we simply don't track Hit Points... The game is about heroes saving the world, not about poor adventurers tracking their health. We assume, that you can always buy healing in towns, recycle enough Hit Points from the fight, heal them or find them as loot...."

First Person Shooter wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Breaker Barbarian with large sized arrows.

Drawn like ammunition, can be made of special materials, and though the magic is gone after one use, they can be enchanted.

He can also use them in melee, but lasts longer if he uses Durable arrows.

Still, he will be the only one with an Adamantine weapon at first level.

Spell caster with the spell coin shot, cast on P.P. get Adamantine ammo - at a cost of 10gp per shot....

Wow, this is the first time I have seen multi-year necromancy on a thread I had contributed to.

Coin Shot first appeared in Pathfinder Player Companion: Heroes of the Street in 2015, so blackbloodtroll's statement was true when he wrote it.

yeah, I was researching PC ideas (hoping for a thrown weapon using Arcane Caster) and I just wanted to expand on it incase anyone else came along later... and to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding the spell. I figured if I got it wrong, someone would be happy to correct me. :-)

Breaker Barbarian with large sized arrows.

Drawn like ammunition, can be made of special materials, and though the magic is gone after one use, they can be enchanted.

He can also use them in melee, but lasts longer if he uses Durable arrows.

Still, he will be the only one with an Adamantine weapon at first level.

Spell caster with the spell coin shot, cast on P.P. get Adamantine ammo - at a cost of 10gp per shot....

Ifrit Wizard/Rogue. 2nd level now. NOT a gunslinger. Do it with spells...

It's all about going first (really high initiative) and getting that "first shot" off. Favorite spell right now is Coin Shot, so I "throw money" at my problems. ;-)

Nope, they are just coins with benefits that go bye-bye when you use them to bean someone in the head, and get deducted from your rewards at the end if used for said beaning in the head.

As you stated yourself, they never stop being coins:

First Person Shooter wrote:

...

edit for correction... I miss-typed. Actually they remain coins even while the spell is active. They don't "just turn back into normal coins after ten minutes," as they never weren't coins.

How about "salvaged" black powder and shot? Does a PC need to pay the FULL PRICE when using captured powder/shot or just the discounted price she pays for her own bullets? or does she pay any at all?

How about healing potions used as weapons? (the Alchemist discovery "Healing Bomb")?

The coins are destroyed if they are actually thrown. That's the "cost". Anything you expend in the scenario is deducted from rewards at the end of the scenario. IF you never toss them at someone then they are not destroyed and still count to your rewards at the end.

As far as consumables like potions and such go - it says the following in the guide:

Note: You may use any item that you find during the
scenario for free until the end of the scenario, but you
must purchase the item when the scenario is over in
order for your character to be able to continue to use the
item. This rule is most applicable to consumables such as
potions, scrolls, and so on, but also applies to weapons,
magic items, and so on.

so - does the spell turn them into ammunition/weapons or magic items?

If you do not use them they just turn back into normal coins after ten minutes, per the spell.

First Person Shooter wrote:

SCPRedMage wrote:

The intention of the spell is that it costs you money. Casting the spell costs you money. Full stop.

How about when the spell is cast, but the coins aren't used? (or some are, and some aren't? - often the PC only get's to throw one or two of the three coins enchanted...). Are they still deducted from the total gold reward for the scenario?

Yes they turn back into coins, but SCPRedMage did say that "The intention of the spell is that it costs you money.", and the spell WAS cast - so it should cost money.

edit for correction... I miss-typed. Actually they remain coins even while the spell is active. They don't "just turn back into normal coins after ten minutes," as they never weren't coins.

The intention of the spell is that it costs you money. Casting the spell costs you money. Full stop.

How about when the spell is cast, but the coins aren't used? (or some are, and some aren't? - often the PC only get's to throw one or two of the three coins enchanted...). Are they still deducted from the total gold reward for the scenario?

How about "salvaged" black powder and shot. The "intention" of costing gunslinger ammo so expensive is that it costs money to use it. Does a PC need to pay the FULL PRICE when using captured powder/shot or just the discounted price she pays for her own bullets? or does she pay any at all?

Does the same apply to the Alchemist Discovery "Healing Bomb"? When they use a "recovered treasure" potion with it?

There is no doubt that if you use GP, Gems, or sold items acquired to buy things, material components, or exchange to other coins. That results in an expense on your sheet.

However, if you got an item, and used it during the adventure you are not penalized.

Quote:

They cannot sell off any items found during the current adventure

Quote:

You can use any item that you find during the adventure for free until the end of the adventure

Quote:

Items consumed or destroyed for any reason are not crossed out on the Chronicle sheet. Items given to NPCs or that are used as spell components are crossed off.

Ouch! that does it then...

"Items given to NPCs ...are crossed off...". Yeah - the PC shot NPCs with the coins, so I guess that would count as giving the NPC the coins... and that would reduce the total gold gained in the scenario. I'll try to have the judge change the Gold award from now on.

Kevin Willis wrote:

Mark Moreland wrote:

Whatever price a PC pays to bargain with an outsider needs to be listed as gold spent at the end of the scenario the same as if he had spent real gp out of his amassed wealth. Whether or not the equivalent of that gp value came from his own existing gear, an item found in the scenario, or his cache of coins is immaterial. You cannot use the proposed workaround to get free material components.

and in the same thread

Mark Moreland wrote:

It's not just this spell that will be clarified. Any time you have a spell requiring an expensive material component, you need to pay for that component. That means if you find 250 gp worth of diamond dust in a dragon's lair, you can use it to cast stoneskin, but you don't magically get that diamond dust for free. It's value comes out of your cut of the loot at the end of the scenario.

If people don't like that spell components are treated differently than consumable magic items, then maybe we need to revisit how found consumable items are handled in the campaign. Regardless of where that discussion goes, spell components have costs for a reason; you can't circumvent that by using a campaign-specific rule meant for a different thing.

And here's your precedent; not that I expected anything else. :P

what's the precedent? I am confused... are we considering the Coins the spell is cast on Material Components?

I have the Alchemist Discovery "Healing Bomb" - it uses Curing Potions (or Extracts of Cure spells) to Heal the target of my bombs. So, if I throw a Cure Moderate Wounds potion I just picked up off of Mook #138 - do I need to pay for it? Full price or Half?

If my PC were to pick up silver/magic arrows from Mook #138 and use them - does she need to pay for them?

If my PC were to "salvage" black powder and shot from Gunslinger Mook #138, and use it in her musket, does she need to pay the FULL PRICE or just the discounted price my PC pays for her own bullets? or does she pay any at all?

If I pick up several long swords from Mook #138 thru Mook #142 and use them on a Ramoriz - and they melt (I didn't use MY sword for that reason - I didn't want it to melt!), do I need to pay for those swords?

So, realizing that I am not SPENDING it as money - why do I have to use my coins as ammunition rather than the coins I just picked up?

If it makes a difference, the coins the spell are thrown on are not Material Components, and are destroyed only if they are thrown...

This is a real corner case question....

Can a PC use stuff picked up from defeated foes without having to pay for it?

Specifically, coins. If my PC casts the spell coin shot and throws coins picked up from a defeated mook earlier in the scenario - do I need to mark those coins as expended from my PC wealth? I realize that we are literally discussing "pocket change" here, but as a 2nd level PC, that's real money to me! ;)

If we pick up 100 gp - can my PC find a local temple of Abadar (or some other "bank") and change them into (about) 10 platinum pieces, then use some of those in a casting of coin shot? Would this count as my PC "spending" money?

Thank you for your answers!

I'm with Jon and Tony that playing with a pregen for credit that goes to a character counts as playing that character and if it occurred after the character had 3 xp already assigned, that counts as having played the character after 1st level. Normally, this would not be an issue since, as BNW said, the character is a ball of protoplasm that has not fully formed and there would be nothing to stop you from making the character as desired as long as you made it legal at 2nd level and beyond. The issue here is that you want to make use of a rules change that will occur after the character has become locked at 2nd level and that would mean you could not make it an ifrit because that race was not available at the time without a boon. My suggestion would be to contact your VC to see if they can assist you in reassigning your We B4 Goblins credit to another character number so that you have no play credit assigned past 1st level and don't have to worry about it.

so... if we re-assign it to a different PC (a first level one), then I would still be able to assign a different run of WB4G to a DIFFERENT 2nd level PC... Perhaps even this one (if I played it after GenCon)?

My head is starting to hurt again - can we just change the date on this run of WB4G? (Sorry, that is not a serious question. Please put down the LAWFUL nerf bat...)

Per the current Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide, p. 23, "At the start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to adjust your character before settling in for the long haul. Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number. Changes may only be made between adventures and before playing as a character above 1st level."

My understanding of that the last sentence is what allows your "GM Baby" to be rebuilt up until the first time it is played above 1st level (i.e., you can rebuild as a 3+ level character as long as it has never been played above 1st level). If the play credit for We B4 Goblins was applied to the character after it already had 3xp, the character is locked and retraining rules apply. Because the Guide says that you can change any aspect, I would suggest that this would include changing your race to another playable race that was added after your GM credits were assigned.

Have fun with your ifrit!

I do not understand the bolded sentence. If the "...character is locked and retraining rules apply", due to the We B4 Goblins chronicle being his 4th XP... how does this work? What is my PC "locked" into to be retrained from? It has not even been created yet (other than a number and chronicles assigned...)

For example, I have a PC that has:
1st CR The Confirmation (played as ... - I actually don't remember what.) dated 7/17/2015
2nd CR Masters of the Fallen Fortress (Judge Credit) dated 10/12/2015
3rd CR First Steps I (Judge Credit) dated 6/9/2016
4th CR We B4 Goblins (Poog) dated 6/18/2016
5th CR Trouble in Tamran (Judge Credit) dated 6/19/2016

so, if I don't run him as a PC (and thus BUILD him) until after GenCon, can he be built as an Ifrit, a race he could NOT have been when he earned the Chronicles?

I realize that the likely answer is "yes" - it just feels like I'm dodging around and taking advantage...

I've been gathering gm exp to eventually create my Undine Kineticist as a third-leveler, skipping those painful early levels. Turns out, my least played tier is 3-7 and not 1-5 so this gets me more action and saves some of those last few 1-5's left(5 in total, IIRC).

I've been thinking of just using this one as my "catch all" - seeing if I can run it all the way to retirement just on GM credits...

jon dehning wrote:

Two-Two wrote:

so... after GenCon, can I take one of my GM Babies and create it as an Ifrit?

Say my -22 character, who has 6XP all earned before today, but it has never actually played (well... he did play We B4 Goblins...but that doesn't count)... Can I then use it to produce a 3rd level Ifrit the first day of GenCon?

Sorry, no. If you wanted to turn that PC into an ifrit you would need to pay whatever the retrain cost is.

If it has 3xp, then yes. But 6xp is like you said third level and thus over the free retrain limit.

That is assuming that one has played him at some point after reaching said limit.

As I said - total GM Baby. Only "played" credit on him is as a Goblin (Poog).

Two-Two wrote:

so... after GenCon, can I take one of my GM Babies and create it as an Ifrit?

Say my -22 character, who has 6XP all earned before today, but it has never actually played (well... he did play We B4 Goblins...but that doesn't count)... Can I then use it to produce a 3rd level Ifrit the first day of GenCon?

I think you can. It's within the free rebuild rules.

yeah, that's what I think too. just feels... "funny" though.

so... after GenCon, can I take one of my GM Babies and create it as an Ifrit?

Say my -22 character, who has 6XP all earned before today, but it has never actually played (well... he did play We B4 Goblins...but that doesn't count)... Can I then use it to produce a 3rd level Ifrit the first day of GenCon?

there are several other ones that would work too I think

Which ones?

Goddity wrote:

Scrollmaster wizard from Ultimate Magic lets you use scrolls as weapons.

I sorta wish that was a magus or occultist archetype..

Actually Librarian Occultist would be pretty perfect. Making weapons of books, using the residual thoughts of the writer, and the scribs(who made copies).

Kinda like Tome Eater, book for their focus. they summong images from books to attack etc.

though really just fluff tome eater I guess.. but I imagine vastly different archetype details..

for one tome eater.. eats books. The Librarian would perserve and make them.
They'd make a pretty hilariours married couple

Actually, I was planning on using this with a Tome Eater Occultist.... Started life as a Librarian, until one day... Yeah. Like that. ;-)

OH! and something to add...

If my PC had say, Profession Librarian, would this work?
"Adventurer's Armoury, page 31:
Rough and Ready: Your intense familiarity with the tools of your trade allows you to use them in combat as if they were actual weapons and makes them more effective for that purpose than they would normally be. When you use a tool of your trade (requiring at least 1 rank in the appropriate Craft or Profession skill) as a weapon, you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1 trait bonus on your attack. This trait is commonly used with shovels, picks, blacksmith hammers, and other sturdy tools—lutes and brooms make terribly fragile weapons."

would "Rough and Ready" let someone throw books as weapons? say doing 1d3 or 1d2?

I am thinking of creating a PC for PFS who throws books as a missile weapon. But I'm wondering HOW this would be done? is there a way to make this sort of work? what would it be like?

thanks in advance for the advice - I'll try to let this thread sit a day or so and check back for ideas.