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unless mythic enemies tend to be creatures who get myths built up around them in world and the party can learn about and plan to fight well in advance, in which case, there could be a lot of fun to be had with this game mechanic.
As long as you're a caster who can change their spells based on advance knowledge this MAY work. But not all casters get that luxury.
At 18th level the Wildspell 18th level feat Mana Detonation, which grants the Arcane Explosion mythic focus spell, provides a weird method of minor but consistent harassing attack against resilient foes for the patient.
(1) Cast the spell to get a force ball explosion, don't care too much if they save against the damage, (2) convert to indefinite duration incorporeal form that prevents you from striking, casting spells, and manipulating, (but not, say, demoralizing or other linguistic/concentrate actions or sustaining any preexisting effects) and provides resist all equal to your level, (3) stay adjacent to the resilient creature to inflict 6d6 force damage, no save, every round if it ends its turn next to you, (4) if you're about to go down, dismiss the spell and get your body back at max HP.
Either they suffer 21 avg damage every round, burn actions to get away from you, or target you and not your allies which you can soak a bit and then restore your max HP easily. If you're willing to burn a second mythic point you can go another set of rounds.
It's not sexy and certainly not fast but it's contributing with your mythic abilities. Or just use attack spells with Sure Strike, that'll do more than 21 points of damage as long as the
The problem with attack roll spells are that even with Mythic Proficiency it's literally "All or Nothing". Where if you miss their AC even with Mythic Proficiency you feel like you wasted both a Mythic Point AND a Spell-slot, where Basic Saves at-least use to deal half-damage but when enemies either Crit Fail > Fail, Fail > Success or Success > Crit Success they now become the Attack Roll Spells earlier "All or Nothing".
You are fighting a mythic enemy. I may have the mechanics wrong, but just spending a mythic point to complete an action means that in addition to the proficiency boost, you are getting to roll twice and take the highest. At lower levels, this is going to make spell attack rolls destroy your saving throw spells for damage per spell as a mythic caster. Even at the highest level, getting that reroll and the +2 over your regular legendary proficiency is going to be huge, especially as you will still have an action left over/can't use sure strike. So if it is really important to you to do damage on a miss, then cast Horizon Thunder Sphere with 3 actions.
The thing is, your save spells won't be doing anything on a successful save either, so the numbers are really going to favor spell attack roll spells for use with mythic spell casting generally, and especially against resilient enemies. This feels pretty intentional with the design of the mythic system: As a mythic character, it is those moments when the dice are in your hand that you get to really do your most awesome stuff.
More so than ever, it is going to be important for more spell attack roll spells to make their way back into remastered content/get new ones. They will still require a lot of tactical manipulation to shine for regular casters in non-mythic games, so I get not wanting too many of them in the core rule books, misleading newer players into trying to cast them all the time, but mythic games are going to want more of them back in the game, especially flexible cool ones like Horizon Thunder Sphere.
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You are fighting a mythic enemy. I may have the mechanics wrong, but just spending a mythic point to complete an action means that in addition to the proficiency boost, you are getting to roll twice and take the highest. At lower levels, this is going to make spell attack rolls destroy your saving throw spells for damage per spell as a mythic caster. Even at the highest level, getting that reroll and the +2 over your regular legendary proficiency is going to be huge, especially as you will still have an action left over/can't use sure strike. So if it is really important to you to do damage on a miss, then cast Horizon Thunder Sphere with 3 actions.
The thing is, your save spells won't be doing anything on a successful save either, so the numbers are really going to favor spell attack roll spells for use with mythic spell casting generally, and especially against resilient enemies. This feels pretty intentional with the design of the mythic system: As a mythic character, it is those moments when the dice are in your hand that you get to really do your most awesome stuff.
More so than ever, it is going to be important for more spell attack roll spells to make their way back into remastered content/get new ones. They will still require a lot of tactical manipulation to shine for regular casters in non-mythic games, so I get not wanting too many of them in the core rule books, misleading newer players into trying to cast them all the time, but mythic games are going to want more of them back in the game, especially flexible cool ones like Horizon Thunder Sphere.
Nope. First; the Mythic Casting ability that lets you cast a spell at mythic proficiency is a 1 action spellshape, so no 3 action HTS. Second; It is not an addition to rewrite fate, you don't get a reroll, you make the initial roll at mythic proficiency. If you want a reroll, well, have some sort of fortune effect. But it's not going to be rewrite fate or a hero point, because the former doesn't do attack rolls and you don't get the latter anymore. And it's not going to be sure strike, because as I said, it's a 1 action spellshape to do this, so have fun with the 1 action you have left if you cast that.
Spell Attacks are going to be important, sure, but casters still got shafted *hard* with how this is all written right now.
Oh, also, it's a level 10 feat, so there won't be any of this at "low levels"
There should have been a Water Carrier calling,
Nope. First; the Mythic Casting ability that lets you cast a spell at mythic proficiency is a 1 action spellshape, so no 3 action HTS. Second; It is not an addition to rewrite fate, you don't get a reroll, you make the initial roll at mythic proficiency. If you want a reroll, well, have some sort of fortune effect.
This is actually reassuring to hear. No one really laid out how the mythic casting with non-mythic spells was going to work (at least not where I have seen), and I am glad that there is no way to rewrite fate with spell casting as that sounded way too powerful to me, especially at lower levels. That still requires the use of a mythic point though I presume?
It still means the shadow signet is going to be a very important item for mythic casters though it looks like, and that we will hopefully see more higher rank spell attack roll spells (not in this book, but in the future).
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The problem with attack roll spells are that even with Mythic Proficiency it's literally "All or Nothing". Where if you miss their AC even with Mythic Proficiency you feel like you wasted both a Mythic Point AND a Spell-slot, where Basic Saves at-least use to deal half-damage but when enemies either Crit Fail > Fail, Fail > Success or Success > Crit Success they now become the Attack Roll Spells earlier "All or Nothing".
The Live Wire cantrip might be of interest.
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Its going to feel horrible as a caster using save spell to battle Creatures with mythic resilience.
Following the Monster creation rules we get this at level 13+
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Ambusher: Fort: Low(R) Ref: High(R) Will: Average or High(R)
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Brute: Fort: High(R) Ref: Average or Low(R*) Will: Low
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Caster: Fort: Low Ref: Average(R*) Will: High(R)
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Striker: Fort: Low Ref: High(R) Will: Average(R*)
*only If monster dont gimp itself by picking Mythic Resistance twice instead of Mythic Resiliance on 1 and 7.
(R) = Mythic Resilience (one degree of success better)
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Average % chances over all 20 levels VS monster with Mythic Resiliance on that Save
Low Save: 8.5% Full damage/effect (Failure), 49,5% Half damage/effect (Success), 42% No effect (Critical Success)
Moderate Save: 5% Full damage/effect (Failure), 38% Half damage/effect (Success), 57% No effect (Critical Success)
High Save: 5% Full damage/effect (Failure), 23.25% Half damage/effect (Success), 71.75% No effect (Critical Success)
This is actually reassuring to hear. No one really laid out how the mythic casting with non-mythic spells was going to work (at least not where I have seen), and I am glad that there is no way to rewrite fate with spell casting as that sounded way too powerful to me, especially at lower levels. That still requires the use of a mythic point though I presume?
Rewrite Fate requires a mythic point, only rerolls a skill check or save. Free action.
For casting spells better, the following options all require spending a mythic point:
Correct the Story (feat 6): Reaction, enemy must reroll a critical success on save (or attack roll). The result, not roll, must be a critical, so this helps with mythic resilience upgrades, although the second roll is still going to get boosted.
Mythic Magic (feat 8): Select three spells of rank 1-2 from any list (you don't have to be a caster to take this feat). Later you get a single rank 3 and rank 4 spell. When you use a mythic point, you cast one of these spells at auto heightened rank like a cantrip or focus spell, and at mythic proficiency. Unlike the later options, this isn't a spellshape that costs an extra action, so it's actually better in some ways than later feats, but you have to use a good low rank option that you're boosting that benefits from the auto heighten.
Mythic Casting (feat 10): Spellshape, 1 action. Cast a normal spell you have, use mythic proficiency for attack/save DC. Doesn't autoheighten.
Mythic Heightening (wildspell feat 14): 1 per day, spellshape, 1 action. Mythic Casting, but it also autoheightens. Again, if you're happy staying with your limited low rank spells from Mythic Magic, Mythic Magic is actually better because it's a lower level feat, no action cost, and unlimited use during the day.
I haven't seen all the feats from the callings, but outside Wildspell Archfiend has a dedication ability create a zone that inflicts -1 untyped penalty to Fort saves on enemies, and another that gives a +2-3 circ bonus on all social skills, if you want to try to max your bon mots and demoralizes. My guess is that little or nothing else supports reducing enemy saves or directly or indirectly boosting casting/DC abilities.
Thanks Xenocrat for that information!
I have a feeling it is going to take a couple of months for folks to really get into these rules and see them in play/see how to push the levers.
Honestly, the fact that mythic points completely replace hero points makes mythic play not something I am particularly excited to jump into any time soon. My tables generally play about 2 to 2.5 hour sessions and we still give out hero points generously, so they get used often, and often on saves and attack rolls (as well as skills generally). They have been a very effective mechanic for giving players just enough extra agency over the dice for most everyone to be very happy with them. Having that be essentially more formalized, even in some spectacular ways will probably cause a fair bit of frustration at my tables.
It definitely looks like the developers were very cautious about how much casters broke PF1 mythic and were decidedly not going to make the same mistake again. It is understandable, but the "casters never get nice things" is already such a strong undercurrent in talking about PF2, that this will a talking point for a very long time.
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It definitely looks like the developers were very cautious about how much casters broke PF1 mythic and were decidedly not going to make the same mistake again. It is understandable, but the "casters never get nice things" is already such a strong undercurrent in talking about PF2, that this will a talking point for a very long time.
They need to get over it and change that their expectations of what an internally balanced game can be.
/s
I somehow seem to have forgotten that a considerable number of the mythic feats in the game, especially the ones in the Mythic Destinies, target saves. So it seems that Mythic Resilience doesn't just affect casters and kineticists, but even martials won't be able to enjoy using their Mythic abilities due to Resilience, which feels antithetical to the kind of game and feel that Mythic is going for. Seems lame to be fighting against a mythic enemy and not be able to use your mythic abilities against them.
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Forgot to clarify what Mythic Resilience is, so people probably don't know what I'm talking about, so I'm just gonna copy-paste what it does here.
Mythic Resilience (1st): The creature treats its saving throws with the associated save as one degree of success better than it rolled. This is not cumulative with other effects that change their degree of success, like the incapacitation trait (except for rolling a natural 1 or 20). Each time the monster gains mythic resilience, choose one save. The ability should apply to the creature’s highest saves first.
This can be taken again at levels 7 and 13, so a Level 13 Mythic Creature has Mythic Resilience in all 3 of their saves.
The easiest way to fix this would be to make it not apply to Mythic proficient abilities, the same as every other option in the book, since most Mythic defensive abilities are meant to counteract non-Mythic effects in the first place, which makes sense; the main point of Mythic is to create a tier that can only be (reasonably) fought by entities on the same tier. Look at Mythic Resistance; you can only bypass it if you are also Mythic. Why Mythic Resilience isn't likewise balanced this way makes no sense.
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The easiest way to fix this would be to make it not apply to Mythic proficient abilities, the same as every other option in the book, since most Mythic defensive abilities are meant to counteract non-Mythic effects in the first place, which makes sense; the main point of Mythic is to create a tier that can only be (reasonably) fought by entities on the same tier. Look at Mythic Resistance; you can only bypass it if you are also Mythic. Why Mythic Resilience isn't likewise balanced this way makes no sense.Forgot to clarify what Mythic Resilience is, so people probably don't know what I'm talking about, so I'm just gonna copy-paste what it does here.
Mythic Resilience (1st): The creature treats its saving throws with the associated save as one degree of success better than it rolled. This is not cumulative with other effects that change their degree of success, like the incapacitation trait (except for rolling a natural 1 or 20). Each time the monster gains mythic resilience, choose one save. The ability should apply to the creature’s highest saves first.
This can be taken again at levels 7 and 13, so a Level 13 Mythic Creature has Mythic Resilience in all 3 of their saves.
This is the only reasonable approach.
Seeing how the the other options are written, I believe that due to oversight the "non-mythic" was omitted, as all others have it.
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I think the Mythic Magic feat L8 is going to shred monsters from L8 onwards. Choose blazing bolt an Horizon thunder sphere. Can use Sure strike.
Horizon thunder sphere does half damage on a miss with the three action version.
L8 and mythic proficiency meens you get a 6 points boost at that level (which lasts until prof goes to master, L15 I think). Blazing bolt can have three targets. Not an AoE spell, but close. And that 6 point boost is a lot.
L10 might make it even better with the Shadow signet, as was already mentioned earlier. And there is always force barrage.
I don't think an ambusher with three resilient saves at L13 has much of a chance because any caster can pick any three spells from any list with the feat.
I think the Mythic Magic feat L8 is going to shred monsters from L8 onwards. Choose blazing bolt an Horizon thunder sphere. Can use Sure strike.
Horizon thunder sphere does half damage on a miss with the three action version.
L8 and mythic proficiency meens you get a 6 points boost at that level (which lasts until prof goes to master, L15 I think). Blazing bolt can have three targets. Not an AoE spell, but close. And that 6 point boost is a lot.
L10 might make it even better with the Shadow signet, as was already mentioned earlier. And there is always force barrage.
I don't think an ambusher with three resilient saves at L13 has much of a chance because any caster can pick any three spells from any list with the feat.
Yes Mythic casting works at lower levels, the biggest problem are at Higher level when Mythic resilience really becomes a problem, and by then mythic proficiency give you almost nothing, its not like for martial that gets +5 weapons. caster just get worse with levels.
Also Mythic Magic wont work for Horizon thunder sphere since you need to chose a spell with no more then 3 action cost when you select the feat.
and it have options for 2 round casting, sure you can houserule it and say you can only use the 1-3 action cost variant, but that would still be a houserule.
Mythic Magic is ok, but it feels more made for martials to gain spell casting and is insaine for them, even if just to get some buffs easy.
L7 Expert casting -6 vs mythic casting
L15 master casting -4 vs mythic
L19 legendary
Resilience on 3 saves at L13.
So from L8 to L14 you get a +6, L15 to L18 it's a +4. And you can still choose AC, Fort or Refl.
Up until L18 is pretty high level.
You're right about Horizon, that is a shame.
The obvious pick for Mythic Magic at level 8 is invisibility, which automatically heightens when you get it to 4th rank. How many mid level creatures can see through constant invisibility?
Rogues stay winning.