Failed Saving Throw's page

Actually, after all this time, I'm surprised we haven't seen an "epic level" AP yet (or at least something that begins at level 17 or so). I think that would be a good challenge for the Paizo team.

Mummy's mask taught me to not be to hasty and create meta characters. Our group had an undead scourge paladin that rarely smited anything in book 1, so consider the dwarf ranger thing with that in mind.

That's interesting - undead scourge paladin is one of my top choices if I was to ever play that AP. Without spoilers, what are some better picks? I still might do undead scourge for the flavor and roleplaying aspect.

Failed Saving Throw wrote:

Balgin wrote:

Dear Paizo, for a future adventure path I would like to see one with lots of dwarfs in it doing dwarfy stuff with a dwarf themed storyline. There could be lots of fun, fallen holds to reclaim, rushing out to drag back some stubborn old codger who's intent on returning to Belkzen to reclaim some long lost family heirloom.

The dwarfs are horribly under represented in Golarion and it's about time we had some more dwarf themed content. Oh yes, dwarfs. A dwarf themed adventure path would be very nice.

Don't see them doing this, really, since Open Design tackled this really well with Halls of the Mountain King.

That's not an adventure 'though. Just gorgeous 3d print & assemble paper terrain. Think I've got a copy knocking about on my hard drive somewhere.

Think you're confusing that with something else. Halls of the Mountain King was an Open Design adventure book for 3E or 4E. It had a supplement too, Iron Gazetteer, that was pretty cool. Gave you a dwarven ranger build that focused on tunnel fighting with a spear.

http://www.wolfgangbaur.com/projects/Halls_of_the_Mountain_King.php

Dear Paizo, for a future adventure path I would like to see one with lots of dwarfs in it doing dwarfy stuff with a dwarf themed storyline. There could be lots of fun, fallen holds to reclaim, rushing out to drag back some stubborn old codger who's intent on returning to Belkzen to reclaim some long lost family heirloom.

The dwarfs are horribly under represented in Golarion and it's about time we had some more dwarf themed content. Oh yes, dwarfs. A dwarf themed adventure path would be very nice.

Don't see them doing this, really, since Open Design tackled this really well with Halls of the Mountain King.

Arcadia: destroy a colony/defy colonists

I really like the idea of defying colonists.

Where are you guys located? I'm in Mercer County and would love to join a weekend group.

Real Life? The Falx (a shield killing two handed sword that made the Roman Army completely review its equipment and Tactics).

Cool stuff on the falx, wasn't familiar with that.

Vow of Poverty, Celestial Druid. Absolutely horrifically broken. I had to houserule the hell out of the guy as we went along because the stuff he was able to pull out of his backside was truly ridiculous. I think we know by now that the Vow of Poverty Druid is one of the more notoriously broken builds and the bane of any DM who allowed access to all books in 3.5.

One thing I remember clearly is how badly broken the Fleshraker companion was. It's from the MM3 and I believe is CR 4 or 5, so a druid can get it as a companion at quite a low level. Check out what it does:

Attack: Claw +6 melee (1d6+3 and poison)

Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d6+3 plus poison) and bite +1 melee (1d6+1) and tail +1 melee (1d6+1 plus poison)

When a fleshraker charges, it leaps high into the air above its prey, attempting to knock it to the ground. This ability functions much like the pounce special attack. However, a fleshraker’s incredible jumping ability makes its leaping pounce particularly deadly. When a fleshraker charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including one rake attack. If a fleshraker successfully hits and damages a target of its size or smaller that it pounces on during a charge, it can make a free trip attack without provoking attacks of opportunity. If the fleshraker wins the opposed trip check, it can make an immediate grapple check. If it succeeds, the opponent is considered grappled and pinned on the ground beneath the fleshraker. On each subsequent round, the fleshraker can deal automatic claw and rake damage with a successful grapple check against a pinned opponent.
If a fleshraker fails the opposed trip check, it cannot be tripped in return. If it successfully trips its opponent but fails the subsequent grapple check, the opponent is still prone in the fleshraker’s square, but it is not grappled or pinned.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 14, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage 1d6 Dex. The save DC is Constitution-based.

So you have this ridiculous little velociraptor that can attack four times in a round, grapple and deliver Dexterity damage, which quickly gimps many foes at that level. I had to ban it pretty fast because to balance things out, the monsters I'd have to throw at the party ran too high of a risk of TPK'ing them.

Oh, I forgot that later the dude picked up the Ashbound Summoning feat, from one of the Eberron splats I believe. This transformed him into a super-summoner capable of whipping out over-buffed elementals at the drop of a hat.

Overall sometimes it was fun to see what the guy came up with, but at the end of the day he was pretty much a spergy min-maxer intent on pushing what he could get away with.

One of the nastiest encounters I can remember running was in 3.5 with Savage Tide. Anyone remember the swarm of fiendish baboons? I forget where they came in...think the fourth adventure. Anyway, one of the characters (thief/assassin type) wound up dropping into the room with them solo, and then running for his life as the rest of the party scurried to rescue him. I think half the party died in the process. Classic example of something written into an AP that was supposed to not be that big of a deal - assuming everyone walked into the room at the same time like a "typical" encounter.

Plenty of aquatic encounters in enclosed spaces are deadly

Rust Monster - Run!

Rust Monster + other monsters tends to = a@$#~~~ DM.

One thing I don't get is why people cancel their subscription just because they don't like the theme of the AP. You probably won't be able to run all APs anyway (especially when you include third party material like Way of the Wicked, Razor Coast or Rise of the Drow).

But even if you would never run an AP, it still contains lots of useful stuff, bestiaries, gazetteers, deity articles, magic items, etc.
Of all the APs I can only see me running Carrion Crown (which I run at the moment), Curse of the Crimson Throne, Legacy of Fire, Rise of the Runelords and maybe Shattered Star. I can't wait to get my hands on Reign of Winter. But do I regret owning all the other APs? No, they are nicely done and contain lots of stuff to salvage.

I was an initial subscriber and kept going until the start of Council of Thieves. Then I started having kids and could no longer afford the subscription. I also wasn't playing anymore. I'll get back on the horse one day I suppose when I have more disposable income - all of the APs in my opinion are great products. But they're luxuries when you're not actively paying and things like daycare and diapers loom large.

magnuskn wrote:

Man, I don't get why Andoran is so unpopular that apparently I am the only person on the boards who'd want an AP set there.

I am the only vote for Darkmoon Vale, which is in Andoran ;)

You're not the only one who likes Darkmoon Vale. That was the setting of my first homebrew Pathfinder campaign (a poorly thought-out 4E hack that I'll never do again). And the Lumber Consortium were going to be overhanging villains.

That said, my vote's on Numeria. It's so obvious that an AP there would have tons of great potential.

I'm selling off most of my RPG collection and I'm wondering if the full print run of the entire Savage Tide AP (both Dungeon and Dragon) has any value. I put my hardcover Shackled City up on eBay recently but there were no takers. Any advice/insight or interest buyers welcome!

Failed Saving Throw wrote:

It's a shame that the salary is advertised as entry level, otherwise I'd throw my hat into the ring. I've always wanted to work for a company like Paizo, but the opportunity was never really there, so I went into journalism instead...

So here's a question. I have the necessary qualifications for this job, and would be willing to relocate if the pay was sufficient. I have nearly 12 years experience as a journalist, editor, writer, PR professional and communicator. The thing I don't have is direct experience with working for an RPG company. But there must be some role that people like myself can play in a company like Paizo, no?

Sounds like you'd be great, but everyone in the RPG business makes entry level salaries :P

Well, it's not as if journalism is a road to riches either. You know, I'm thinking of just putting in a resume for the heck of it. It is a dream job, and salary is not everything, especially not if you get a chance to work at something you actually love. In my experience very few people can say that they wake up in the morning and go off to do such a thing.

It's a shame that the salary is advertised as entry level, otherwise I'd throw my hat into the ring. I've always wanted to work for a company like Paizo, but the opportunity was never really there, so I went into journalism instead...

So here's a question. I have the necessary qualifications for this job, and would be willing to relocate if the pay was sufficient. I have nearly 12 years experience as a journalist, editor, writer, PR professional and communicator. The thing I don't have is direct experience with working for an RPG company. But there must be some role that people like myself can play in a company like Paizo, no?

You know, doing ANYTHING underwater makes it harder, and a certain Runelord of Wrath had her entire empire sunk beneath the waves......

Hell yeah!

I plan to start a new 4E campaign set in Golarian sometime in mid-October, and I'm looking for additional players. We're a group of thirtysomethings so we prefer to game with people 21 and older. Sessions will be bi-weekly and held in Hightstown, NJ (just off of exit 8 on the Turnpike) on Saturday afternoons, most likely 11-6. E-mail me at quirkjames@gmail.com if you're interested.

This is disheartening ... roughly six consecutive weeks without a single character death in all the Savage Tide campaigns in play ? The horror! The tragedy! ... Worse, the silence ...

I've had three PCs die, but both happened during sidequests that I constructed. Most recently, the party's wood elf fighter/blackguard and swordsage/rogue died horrible deaths deep within Emraag's lair. They broke the golden rule of "don't split the party" and wandered into a tight room where a Caller from the Deep lived.

Name: Most everybody

Adventure: Prince of Demons
Catalyst: Demogorgon

After cruising through many of the battles in the last adventures, the PCs found themselves totally overmatched by Demogorgon.

Deter, the party wizard and bearing the Queen's Kiss, whispered vile words from Malcanthet for Demogorgon to hear. Demogorgon tried a Feeblemind in retaliation. That failed, so the demon closed and full attacked the poor wizard with his other action. Dead wizard.

Madaha, the tiger companion of the our druid who has been with the party since Darkmoon Pass, grabbed the Master Pearl and tried to flee. Demogorgon couldn't allow that, teleported after the tiger, and a full round of attacks dropped the big cat as well.

Ayah (the druid) and Edgar (her lover, dragon shaman) had been hanging back in the battle and Madaha had run to them in the large circular room. Nulonga returned from one of his many deaths at this point and sealed the rest of the party in oyster room with a Wall of Force. The two PCs fought as best they could, repeatedly sacrificing themselves so that the other would live, but in the end they were no match for Demogorgon.

The rest of the party raced around the Wall of Force, frantically trying to come to the aid of their companions. Issek, the lizardman barbarian, arrived about the time Edgar and Ayah died. He fought the demon alone, barely hitting, doing little damage, but taking a severe punishment in return.

By the time Pinkus arrived (thief), Issek was on his last legs. Pinkus managed to attract the demon's attention and fought defensively for a few rounds while Issek managed to drop a healing potion or two. Healed up some, Issek charged back into the fray and was decimated by Demogorgon.

Kelric (cleric) and the just raised Deter arrived at this point. Seeing Malcanthet's proxy sent Demogorgon into a new rage. Deter wasn't able to get away from the beast and suffered his second death of the battle.

This left enough time for Kelric to raise Edgar. Once Kelric's expended his...

Wow. So after all that, did the campaign end with the TPK?

As a DM, the Sargasso sounded great and I looked forward to running. My players though were kind of blah on the whole thing. They took to the air, saw the middle part, slogged their way their, and had the fight. We missed out on the whole cthulu aspect of it.

If you run it, I changed it so that middle part is not obvious. Make them find the clues to get there. Make them fight off a night of attackers.

If you don't run it, no biggie. There's nothing of the plot in the Sargasso.

My group really loved the session that involved the Sargasso.

A question to those who made it to Demogorgon - did you manage to rest and reset spells before the fight, or did you go right into it?

Also, I'd love to hear about the fight against Lord Koth.

Well, it should be obvious to some by now that I like tinkering with this AP. Big parts of the plot make no sense to me and I find myself changing a lot on the fly.

My party is in the middle of "The Lightless Depths," but I'm already thinking ahead to "Serpents of Scuttlecove," when the PCs are supposed to blithely sail into a notorious pirate city. I think that's lame.

What I plan to set up is a big naval battle between the PCs, whatever help they can rustle up from various sources, and the Crimson Fleet. I think it's more fun to do that, let the PCs hack up some pirates, rout them, and then say, "Ho ho, so the PCs routed a good portion of the Crimson Fleet's armada and sent them limping back to Scuttlecove. Now is the time to slip into the city undetected!"

What I'm thinking about now is: How big should I make the armada that the PCs tangle with? How should I set up the scenario? And what kinds of pirates/monsters should the PCs face?

My PC's slaughtered Emraag last Sunday and braved his lair. Here's what I did:

I had Lavinia entreat the party to bribe the beast with the wealth she produces. But after the meeting, the party's wizard was approached by a hideously maimed darfallen leviathan hunter named Naikilu. The darfallen explained that several tribes of his people once lived in Maika'i-Ko'a, a huge city made from shaped coral deep beneath the waves of Gallant Cove. However, many years ago, a younger and bolder Emraag and several "followers" raided the city and routed the darfallen. This scattered the tribes, and many decided to never return to Maika'i-Ko'a.

However, decades later, Naikilu's father led his tribe back to the city to try and retake Maika'i-Ko'a. They failed, and Naikilu lost his left arm in the process. His tribe abandoned the idea of returning to Maika'i-Ko'a - but Naikilu, his heart burning with revenge, stayed behind.

So, how I ran it is that Naikilu had the sea skirl, and a small crew of hadozee henchmen in five war canoes. Naikilu convinced the PCs that Emraag could be slain if they took him by surprise, which they could do by spreading out in a circle in the war canoes. And Naikilu promised the PCs that if they killed Emraag, they could descend to Maika'i-Ko'a and take whatever treasure they found. Naikilu simply wanted the dragon turtle dead, and the chance to reclaim Maika'i-Ko'a later.

The PCs fragged Emraag in two rounds. They buffed and summoned like crazy. They blew the sea skirl and summoned him to the surface. While everyone else hid behind spells, the wizard negotiated with Emraag and actually got him to agree to take the bribe. And then everyone struck him from behind. He got a chance to pop off his breath weapon, and that was it.

His lair was a different story. I designed it so that Maika'i-Ko'a was a half-destroyed place, mostly empty yet still filled with deadly traps. I had the PCs fight dire sharks and two echinoloth "guardians" before they found their way down to where Emraag had his yugoloth pets store his hoard. The final guardian was a Caller Of the Deeps, who actually killed two of the PCs before they could take it down.

Very memorable session - I'm definitely glad I tinkered with the AP to add this option.

The party just killed Emraag and is moving on to Part Two of "The Lightless Depths." We've had three PC deaths. The current party:

1. Lukas Blegg, human archivist 11
2. Kithkanin, wood elf fighter 6/blackguard 5
Follower: Xore, lizardfolk black dragon shaman 9
3. Arjan, human druid 11
4. Morderas, half-drow rogue 5/swordsage 6
5. Thalas, high elf duskblade 1/wizard 5/eldritch knight 2/abjurant champion 2

...And this is why I ban most of the supplements after the Completes. Defeating Big D at CR 33 in 3 rounds isn't awesome. It's disappointing.

Split Ray Avasculate and Mountain blah blah. Ridiculous.

Oh, please don't take my remarks as to discourage your own style of play! It's just my own personal preference of game-play is simply anathema to all those crazy over-powering spells and magic items.

I'm running Savage Tide now and the thought of this year-long campaign coming to an end like that fills me with abject horror.

...Still. So disappointing. :(

If I've learned anything by running Savage Tide, it's that giving my players access to all books was a huge mistake. From here on out I am only playing Core.

I'm really starting to question whether the subscription is worth it. The free PDF and 15 percent off other orders really doesn't add up for me. If you're willing to be patient, you can order multiple items from Amazon at a significant cost savings. I like supporting Paizo, but I'd prefer it if they could waive the shipping cost or not charge me cover price for each issue. I know it's not an apples to apples comparison per se, but Pathfinder is the only subscription I have that doesn't offer me some kind of savings off the cover price.

Failed Saving Throw wrote:

What are some cool monsters that you would use to populate the place?

I used a fairly simple underwater cave filled with treasure, coral, and some harmless sealife.

Since Emraag had a nice collection of statues, I included a bronze-coated, aesthetically pleasing iron golem that stood guard amongst his other treasures. Be sure to include spiked gauntlets or a trident or somesuch, as its standard slam attacks do 1/2 damage underwater.

I also included a huge (14 HD) octopus (Emraag's pet).

I think I want to design something more exotic and fun, because I feel like the events leading up to the meeting with Emraag are pretty boring.

So Jeff, did you actually run this campaign as outlined, or was that just a wish-list?

I'm a huge Planescape fan. If you have any of the Planescape adventure collections like Well of Worlds or The Infinite Staircase or campaign arc books like The Great Modron March and Dead Gods, you could pull quite a few adventures out of those that are heavy on story and roleplaying and light on the hack-and-slash. It would take a little work to convert, though.

I've heard a lot of great things about Dead Gods, which may be why the print version sells for astronomical prices used.

Mad God's Key (1st level/Dungeon #114) - Jason Bulmahn

Home Under The Range (3rd level/Dungeon #134) - Michael Kortes
The Stink (4th level/Dungeon #105) - Monte Lin
The Hive (5th level/Dungeon #127) - Phillip Larwood
Fiendish Footprints (6th level/Dungeon #122) - Tito Leati
Mellorn Hospitality (7th level/Dungeon #107) - Russell Brown
Vile Addiction (8th level/Dungeon #145) - Various
Spawn of Sehan (9th level/Dungeon #146) - Various
Dread Pagoda of the Inscrutable Ones (10th level/Dungeon #147) - Various
Touch of the Abyss (11th level/ Dungeon #117) - Greg A. Vaughan
Shadow of the Abyss (11th level/ Dungeon #118) - Greg A. Vaughan
Wrath of the Abyss (12th level/ Dungeon #119) - Greg A. Vaughan
Lost Temple of Demogorgon (14th level/Dungeon #120) - Sean K. Reynolds
The Mud Sorcerer's Tomb (14th level/Dungeon #138) - Mike Shel
Gates of Oblivion (18th level/Dungeon #136) - Alec Austin
Vlindarian's Vault (18th level/Dungeon #141) - Johnathan M. Richards
Heart of Hellfire Mountain (20th level/Dungeon #140) - Dave Olson

-DM Jeff

This is very interesting. Since I'm only familiar with a few of these, would you mind giving a little flavor as to what each one entails?

You might consider finding a few of the trilogies from Dungeon at different levels and loop them together with linking modules. Dump some NPCs and put in others.

Recently, I was looking at the Dungeon Ezine 122 adventure, Essence of Evil. It's a level 20 adventure with an elder evil and the end of the world nigh. What a great final adventure. And there are plenty of lower level adventures of fighting various cultists of Tharizdun or other elder evils. Link 'em together - each step representing the heroes finger in the dam . . . but another leak cropping up elsewhere.

Throw in a couple of memorable villains and voila!

Good idea. Seeds of Sehan was actually a pretty neat trilogy.

Recently I ran two different groups through Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde and Red Hand of Doom. One reason they worked was the size of the modules presented almost mini-campaigns. They were big enough that they cut major prep time and let me focus on smaller details.

One group TPK'd in Red Hand of Doom. The other is at the very end of it. If they survive, I'm putting them through the 3.5 redux of Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. I think the evil in the mountains theme will tie really well into the background of SGoS. Plus it's another biggie which will give me time to modify on the run as well as continue searching for the last module to complete the run. As of right now, I'm think it's going to be a home-grown because I have a specific idea of what I want, and there's not a lot of choices for modules of level 15+.

I really like everything about Red Hand of Doom except the end. The Fane of Tiamat is a surprisingly ho-hum hack-and-slash-fest. I do know of a few people that have raved about running the whole thing though, so it's definitely something to consider.

Personally I think what I'm looking to do is mix it up much more and have a world-spanning campaign. I like the idea of the PCs going off and doing dozens of small yet memorable quests.

Dungeon Crawl Classics are a bit of a mixed bag. I generally don't like adventures that are pure dungeon crawls. I like more NPC interactions and wilderness adventures.

It's interesting that no one has suggested any recent modules. Surely there must be something work checking out?

In any case, the campaign ended as some players moved away, and to tell the truth I wasn't too jazzed about high level play.

This seems to be the silver bullet that ends many 3.5 campaigns.

Start with a classic, that's my motto. To that end here's a beginning list.

B2 Keep on the Borderlands - flesh out the monsters a bit and give the PCs the ability to negotiate with them (ie not every monster rushes to attack them) and this can keep you going well into 3rd level. Once the PCs are nice and famous they get a Royal Comission to explore the mysterious
X1 Isle of Dread - possibly the most detail ever crammed into a 32 page module. There is enough 'barebones' here to build an entire campaign world around and that is exactly what you should do. Beef up the village of natives the PCs first encounter so that it can act as a base of operations (rare spell components & magic item creating ingredients can be obtained from the surrounding jungle - village mystics provide insight for wizards to learn new spells etc). Really the options are pretty wide open on the Isle but eventually your players may tire of it by the time they are 7th level so then we delve into
X4 Master of the Desert Nomads & X5 Temple of Death - getting them off the isle isn't a big deal - an emissary from the Royal Court arrives to escort them back home due to strange happenings in and around the nearby Sind Desert. The final confrontation with the Master should see the PCs at 11th or higher.

That's it for now - I'll think about some more stuff later.

We're totally thinking with the same brain. I was actually thinking of starting with Rahasia and moving on to do Isle of Dread, Quagmire!, The War Rafts of Kron and Drums on Fire Island.

Adventure paths can be cool, but sometimes I think it's more fun to have more variety between adventures. Sometimes the complex and overarching plotlines that drive adventure paths - like that of Savage Tide - get convoluted and hazy as your group meanders through everything.

Lately I've been thinking about starting a new "campaign" that uses all prewritten stuff. This got me thinking - wouldn't it be cool to pick the best modules out there to form a fun "adventure path" that would keep people engaged all the way through?

So, I'm wondering which modules people would pick, if they could have their choice of anything. This includes old-school D&D Basic, AD&D and 2E modules. Anything goes. Let me hear some cool ideas!

I'll post mine in a bit, I'm still debating a few.

In my group, the Vow of Poverty druid has a thing for her, and now that the party has emerged alive in Farshore, the two will probably start having bizarre trysts involving summoned animals.

The rest of the party doesn't care about Lavinia in the slightest.

Failed Saving Throw wrote:

You know what, I may kick it old school and use the coral city in the old module The War Rafts of Kron for the temple. Coral golems are definitely a great idea.

War Rafts of Kron! I haven't thought about that one in a long time. Gotta go dig it off the shelf and give it a read :)

Oh and if you use the sea hags, don't forget the extra spell powers that a covey of three get. That could prove quite a nasty surprise!

Sweet.

Yeah, I love a lot of the classic modules. I've been toying around with using the "sunken city" in Quagmire! as Emraag's lair, but I think designing it for this use may be a pain in the butt. I also think I want something a bit more wide-open.

(For those who never read Quagmire!, it's a great module in which the PCs find a message in a bottle from the king of the city Quagmire. He begs for help, as lizardmen have blockaded his city - which also happens to be slowly sinking into the sea. As the PCs muck about on a jungle isthmus they discover that there are three identical cities, each one shaped like a huge spiral shell. Quagmire is half-drowned, and one of its sisters has completely sunk beneath the waves; the PCs can explore it or not completely as their option.)

Failed Saving Throw wrote:

I'm gonna go ahead and have my PCs fight the dragon turtle. I'd like to also develop his lair - I'm thinking a sunken temple that Emraag has claimed over the years. What are some cool monsters that you would use to populate the place? After killing Emraag I don't want to make his lair a death-trap per se, just something exciting and weird.

I used the Temple idea for Emraag's lair, with no internal area, just an open structure encroached upon by coral. In the outer region of the lair, Emraag is served by a merfolk Wereshark (an outcast from people) in league with Dire sharks. They patrolled the area hunting for food and intruders.

The coral around the temple was inhabited by Coral Golems, also found in Stormwrack. They were a nice surprise at my table.

Cheers!

You know what, I may kick it old school and use the coral city in the old module The War Rafts of Kron for the temple. Coral golems are definitely a great idea.

I was thinking of having a tribe of tasloi weresharks. So maybe that, some nasty aquatic animal baddies like giant eels, and the sea hags...I think that could be cool.

I'm gonna go ahead and have my PCs fight the dragon turtle. I'd like to also develop his lair - I'm thinking a sunken temple that Emraag has claimed over the years. What are some cool monsters that you would use to populate the place? After killing Emraag I don't want to make his lair a death-trap per se, just something exciting and weird.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Until you hit the Abyss, Lavinia is the key. If the PCs don't love her, the path can easily unravel. In our group, I tweaked the wizard PC's backstory so that she and Lavinia were best friends in school, and asked the player to keep that in mind. I made Urol dote on her and say good things about her all the time, because most of the players loved Urol. It also didn't hurt that, upon the player seeing her picture, he declared that the rogue character had the hots for Lavinia.

Between the three of them (only one--Urol--an NPC), they convinced the rest of the party that their fates and Lavinia's were, and should be, closely tied together.

I'm totally with Kirth on this. This is a pretty story heavy plot - more so then maybe anything else Paizo has done before or sense. This is the story of Lavina and her Brother Vanthus and all the rest of it, the Fiendish lords, the artifacts, the plot to destroy the world, support but do not replace Lavina and Vanthus' story. The players should be tied tightly to Lavina because she is the focus of this drama. A good DM can maybe get around this - but a good DM can, maybe, get around just about anything.

My feeling is if you have any doubt at all about your players being motivated through this AP then I would start from day one entwining their fates with Lavina's. If the players come to really value Lavina then you will never have to worry about motivating them again (until near the very end of this AP) as they will self motivate. You'll barely have to mention the plot hook before they grab it and run with it.

Lavina is the rich and beautiful damsel in distress. Play that for all its worth. Do whatever you can to tie your players up with Lavina on an emotional level. If you can get them attached to her emotionally your set. This thing will run itself.

In hindsight, you're totally right. In my group, only one of the PCs has any real attraction or connection to Lavinia, and that's the Vow of Poverty druid powergamer that (in-game) the rest of the PCs just think is weird. There was an elven warblade who also felt tied to Lavinia and who was serving as somewhat of the party's conscience, but he was killed in a sidequest and replaced with an archivist who doesn't care about Lavinia's problems at all. The elven duskblade/wizard is a ne'er do well ex-noble who doesn't trust Lavinia's "blueblood" roots. And the other two PCs are evil are don't care. :(

lin_fusan wrote:

It's interesting how different groups take or not take to different NPCs.

I think that's the #1 lesson I take from reading this message board. We are all using the same source material, but everyone has their own game and every group has its own dynamic. Even though the basic storyline is the same, each Savage Tide being played at each table is VASTLY different from every other.

I happen to think that's one of the things that make the AP, and to a broader extent, roleplaying in general, such a great thing. :)

Hell, in my campaign:

I think part of the problem is that huge chunks of the plot take place off-screen. Meanwhile the PCs are just wandering through mishap after mishap, to the point that the original plot of "get revenge on Vanthus" fades to the background.

I think it's really hard to create realistic motivations for the PCs to stick around and help out Farshore. By the time the PCs meet up with Lavinia again, they've already endured a shipwreck, being hunted by a demon in a strange place they couldn't escape from, almost got TPK'ed by fiendish baboons and the Lemorian Golem, etc. Then they get to Farshore, pirates attack, and once again everyone is begging them to help.

I can tell that when I pull out Vanthus at the end of the adventure, it's just going to be very confusing. "Okay, so now he's some crazy winged demon? What the f@&~?"

Luckily my group is just having fun with the adventure as is, but I can feel that the plot has become really secondary for them, and I don't blame them. It has huge holes in it.

I feel like the AP definitely starts to lose momentum once the PCs lose sight of chasing after Vanthus. That was my party's prime motivation. They just fought off the first pirate attack at Rat's End and were reunited with Lavinia, and everyone was like, "Oh yeah, her. Forgot all about her."

I'm hoping things pick up a bit now that they have the entire island to explore.

One of my friends has promised to run STAP for us someday (we need to finish SCAP first). I'm interested in the Archivist class from the Heroes of Horror for a PC. Has anyone had experience with one fo those, and how has it been? Should I fall back on a wizard, or a plain ol' line-fighter? Assume a 5-player group.

There's one in my group, and he kicks ass. Originally the player had an elven warblade, but he died in a nasty fight in a lhosk cave (one of my sidequests), and then opted to roll an archivist. He works pretty well with the party, which is:

Elf duskblade/wizard/abjurant champion
Human fighter/blackguard
Half-drow rogue/swordsage
Human druid (Vow of Poverty)
Human archivist

Yeah, my group hates her. They keep correcting her when she refers to the Sea Wyvern as "her" ship, reminding her that they technically own it as Amella is just the hired driver. The archivist PC actually just engaged in a huge debate with her, because as they sailed into a Farshore on fire, she started sobbing that the PCs were cursed and have ruined her life and the lives of her crew (all of whom died in the wreck on Mashers Reef). She told the PCs: "You don't all call yourselves anything, but I now know who you should be - the Black Cloud Company, for that's what you are."

At which the archivist argued, Hey, maybe YOU'RE the one who's cursed? Calamity has befallen us since we started sailing with you, etc. etc.

It's made for some good roleplaying, actually.

Hi all,

Advice please!

Our group is going to be starting STAP in a short while and people are currently thinking of characters to create.

Currently we have a druid, a wizard, a cleric, a monk and a swashbuckler.

I am a big advocate of the balanced party so not to make the DMs job any harder and have the following questions:

Can you do STAP without a rogue??

Do we need a tank??

Or is Ranger a better choice??

Thanks

I think you can get by without a rogue. Overall the two things you really need in STAP are a good tank and a dedicated arcane caster. I could see that party becoming dogfood in the first T-Rex fight or the fight with Olongru.

Man, I am totally stealing most of these ideas. Kudos!