Savage Tide Burnout


Savage Tide Adventure Path


Anybody else ever have this problem?

I've been reading this module for a little over a year now, I started running it back in January. We just started the Tides of Dread.

I was once really into this campaign and the story, but now I just feel burned out on it. there is only one PC in the group who has survived from day one, he is also the only player in the group who has been there since day one. We had 6 players at one point, people dropped out for various reasons, now we are down to two players and myself.

The players have been so distracted by the events in the game that they don't even remember the story, they have asked me every session for the last 3 sessions "why are we going to this island again?".

I don't know what to do about this. Have any of you been burned out on this or another module? what did you do about it?

I'm thinking of gutting the whole thing and rewriting it.
I tried watching Pirates of the Caribbean for the millionth time, since thats the movie that originally made me want to run this campaign, but I'm pretty burnt out on those movies too.

what to do.....


Someonelse wrote:
I tried watching Pirates of the Caribbean for the millionth time, since thats the movie that originally made me want to run this campaign

Try King Kong instead for inspiration during this section.

Scarab Sages

Hopefully tomorrow will be the final battle for my group, which started the campaign in September 06. We have felt the grind campaigning but I've been fortunate in not losing players.
If you can't find the energy to complete the story, it might be best to end it at the island. The island has a ton of things to keep adventurers and explorers occupied for years and could become a ideal place to set up shop and work trade with the Olmans.


I say gut it. I'm sure the Dungeon crew didn't write the series to be a chain around your neck. Let your players go on to something else that you all will enjoy more. Do a quick "aha, we've killed the monsters who were making the pearls" adventure and move on. At this point there can't be that many loose threads...the big V is dead and the big D hasn't been anything more than flavor text. Once the PCs solve the mystery of the pearls, you're done.

Some day in the future, after watching Pirates of the Caribbean on NBC, you can pick up that aspect with a higher level party who could come across the machinations of the Big D and learn how it ties into some seemingly small business on a remote jungle island...


You might also want to avoid really long APs in the future. It sounds like you and your players will tend to have much more fun playing in a campaign built out of smaller campaign arcs that naturally have more reasonable beginnings, middles and ends to their stories.


I face similar feelings with Age of Worms, ending up chopping off most of the Dragothoga arc. Just finished Weds and we all were happy with how it wrapped up. So, if you want to do something else, I'd just finish helping Farshore and then move on to new adventures... the PCs aren't in it enough yet to have the BBEG really be known yet.


I'm about to run the last adventure, and we have been playing since last march. It has been quite a marathon, and I'm feeling the burn. But with the end so close I'm really looking forward to the finale. However, if you are only at the 4th adventure and already feeling the grind then I'd get out because there is still a long long way to go. I ran here there be monsters around August last year and that feels like a long time ago.


Just agreeing with everyone else - if it's not working, bring it to an end. Too much good stuff out there to spend your time on something you don't enjoy.

Vanthus has received the last batch of shadow pearls from the lords of dread, they're on the boat. Defeat Vanthus, find pearls, campaign over.

Sczarni

we just finished 3 weeks ago, after starting when There is No Honor was released (september 06? was is that long ago, jeez)

the last few adventures were a bit of a strain on me...pretty much from the time the cleric and warmage got 9th lvl spells, i was not in it much after that.

in my opinion, run the Sea Wyvern's Wake, spice it up with lots of piratey goodness, emphasize the Crimson Fleet, and get some ship to ship stuff in, go through Here There Be Monsters quickly (if they level up on the way to the Isle, they could bypass a lot of the "Big D" revealing stuff....cut out the Bar-Lgura stuff, skip straight to the "get through the jungle" to Tides of Dread. That was the most fun adventure for me to run, and one of the most open-designed and easy to convert adventure I've ever read.

From there, go as you desire...more piratey goodness, exploration of the Isle, go kill some massive big monsters, sim-farshore happy time to build a new community, all kinds of stuff available at that point.

good luck,

-the hamster


I feel like the AP definitely starts to lose momentum once the PCs lose sight of chasing after Vanthus. That was my party's prime motivation. They just fought off the first pirate attack at Rat's End and were reunited with Lavinia, and everyone was like, "Oh yeah, her. Forgot all about her."

I'm hoping things pick up a bit now that they have the entire island to explore.

Grand Lodge

We've been playing once a week since March '07 and currently in the middle of City of Broken Idols. The group is having a lot of fun still. I think that may come in large part from having a very stable group that has been playing for the better part of 8 years. What's killing me right now is that I have 3 spellcasters in my group, plus cohorts, and boy does that ever take time. One battle can take the whole session sometimes. The players are enjoying it though.

I also try to emphasize the environment. They loved Golismorga and we spent more time there than anticipated. They also have strong ties to Farshore and the island. Lastly, they love their ship. Those things help.

It is a marathon though.


We powered through up to the Abyssal prison one; everyone stayed totally psyched for the next installment... until they hit the Abyss. Then it was, like, "Kill more demons? Yawn. Is the next module more demons to kill? Well, before we start that, there's, what, 2 more adventures after that of killing and/or sweet-talking demons? Forget it, we'll pass." So we declared the rescue of Lavinia from the prison and final defeat of Vanthus as the end of the campaign, and ended it there. Almost everyone was very happy with that (besides, the general annoyance of high-level play was really starting to creep in anyway).


We loved AOW heck we played an Epic continuation of AOW that took about 6 months. That was really fun but we have tried to play STAP and to be honest the whole group is just kind of like “nuuuu” We had taken a every other week approach to it so we are going to start playing every week on it see if that helps but AOW started out really cool but STAP has been what are we doing, why are we doing this, Why should we help her? Nothing has really made us get into our characters. We are hoping that the Isle of Dread will start to make things interesting but I do not know if it will be something we will finish out or not. We have started playing 4th and really like it. The biggest reason I think personally is that we ran Epic levels and I do not feel like doing high play again. Just not fun at all.

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

The first time I ran AoW, I had the same problem as the OP. The characters would die, and new ones would come in and not really know what was going on (in character or out of character).

The second time I ran it (new year, new group... mostly) I told them they had to resurrect dead characters. While that helped, it had the unfortunate side effect that bad characters that kept dying... well, kept dying. They never really got better.

The final thing I realized was you need a good mix of the two. If I ever run AoW again (or Savage Tide), I think I'm going to employ a barter system for new characters based on how much they die.

Also, any group that goes from 6 to 2 people... well, I think it's time to quit before you're just talking to yourself. It sucks, but that's life.


I've been trying to push my players through "Tides of Dread", but the game has been feeling the strain ever since a TPK in "Here There Be Monsters". Only one player and I feel really into the campaign world. One guy doesn't give a @#$%, and the others are too casual to feel one way or another.

It's a little disappointing. I was hoping to finish off with the big pirate attack but why slog through something no one wants to play? :-(

I feel that the Adventure Paths are for dedicated "expert" players, who want a challenge and like investing time into a full 1-20 level campaign. Casual players will feel frustrated, and min/maxers will not care about the plot.

One of these days I'd like to pick the game up again, perhaps bring new players.

Sigh.


Sorry to hijack this tread but my experience is a bit different. We're about to finish Bullywug Gambit and so far my players are loving this adventure. They cannot wait for the next session.

A big part of it is that these are the same players who I've Dm for over 10 years and I know what they like and want so will cater the adventure to their taste. I've always tried to incorporate something for all of my players. I can understand that if you to change players in the middle of the game, you will loose the continuity. I made sure that if any 1 player is missing then we will run some other game such as board game or miniature game so that no one will miss out on the story (fortunately i only have 3 other players).

I also try to make the game exciting/different by presenting something new every time. For every session, I've presented new painted miniatures of their opponents or npc. I love painting miniatures so this is a side bonus for me also. I've also produced 3D settings to keep their interest high. So far I have a mockup of Sasserine using Worldworks.com's excellent cardstock buildings for the battle with Daimondback and the stilt walkers. I've also constructed the Vanderboren mansion so that they can fight in it. I'm currently working on a model of the Sea Wyvern for the next episode. This is rather time consuming but we play about once every 3 weeks so its not a big problem. Nothing can get the players more excited then when they enter into the game room to see a full mock up of the Vanderboren Mansion in 28mm. The Ohhh and Ahhhs are also not too bad on my ego.

I'll try to post some pictures as soon as i can find a site to host it on.


As to the OP - definitely sounds lik more of a case of weak/disinetrest group thn a weakness of the path. What you describe sounds very demotivating, but more because of the player situation then because of the story. unfortunately , one can't just shop for a stable, mature and motivated group, one has to be lucky or save the campaign/AP for a great group soem years hence

As for my own experience, we played this through almost to the scripted end, although I had to adapt several parts of it already to maintain the momentum (especially the size of the prison of Divided Ire, which was just too "super-sized") and inertia of the story..

In all honesty though, even with the rewrite interest started to disappear once the characters left the material plane and sailed into the Abyss, and really went slack after rescuing Lavinia, since to the groups collective mind, messing with Demogorgon's plot of elevation seemed rather ludicruous at level 18 - 20 (we never play into the epic levels ). They crawled on through a heavily modified WoS but almost everyone missed the piraty/carribean feel of the previous installments, and attitudes to demonic machinations acquired previously in the path didn't help much.
The Linnorm in EoE proved the final tombstone(the interaction with the Ghaele had been a short humorous interlude of swashbucklers vs. knights bantering ), with all three of the remaining initial core characters falling to its fangs and claws.
Since none of the group is a keen fan of "raise dead/ressurection/etc." things this in effect ended the chronicle, and we capped the whole thing off, with the survivors joining the celestial forces assaulting Gaping Maw and disapperaing from history , with their final fates and the overall outcome unknown to mortal eyes. Demogorgon's activities have dwindled but as to why and how, sages don't know...

Everyone then turned to "Curse of the Crimson Throne" with great glee and fresh enthusiasm.

In retrospect, I would have written some more "Lost world/King Kong" style stuff for the Isle (definitely the coolest location of the STAP), prolonging the moody and fun part of the campaign and finished things off with a final epic piraty feet engagement (including an appearance of Demogorgon (or an avatar of his ) etc. etc. as the crowning act.) to close the story at 18th to 20th level

While some ideas for the Outer Planes were nice and pretty nifty, most of it just jarred and grated far too much from the previously etsablished tone and themes of the story - pirates and Orcus, Malcanteth, Demogorgon and Charon just are not a good mix of flavours, methinks. And the fact that two weak/uninteresting (from where I am standing) installments riddled with logical faults and ridiculous premises started off the Abyssal part of the AP (ItM and WoS ) didn't help.

In resumee - no burnout overall, but growing dsinterest due to the direction of the story finsihed things off.


I think part of the problem is that huge chunks of the plot take place off-screen. Meanwhile the PCs are just wandering through mishap after mishap, to the point that the original plot of "get revenge on Vanthus" fades to the background.

I think it's really hard to create realistic motivations for the PCs to stick around and help out Farshore. By the time the PCs meet up with Lavinia again, they've already endured a shipwreck, being hunted by a demon in a strange place they couldn't escape from, almost got TPK'ed by fiendish baboons and the Lemorian Golem, etc. Then they get to Farshore, pirates attack, and once again everyone is begging them to help.

I can tell that when I pull out Vanthus at the end of the adventure, it's just going to be very confusing. "Okay, so now he's some crazy winged demon? What the f*$+?"

Luckily my group is just having fun with the adventure as is, but I can feel that the plot has become really secondary for them, and I don't blame them. It has huge holes in it.


Our STAP campaign died of many deaths, so it would not be fair to solely blame it on the metaplot, but until now I am still not sure that there was ever a compelling reason for my character to go to the Isle of Dread, or to try to save Farshore, or to go after the Crimson Fleet, etc.

I *felt* that the story was trying to tug me into a specific direction, but as hard as the story tried, it felt too unidimensional to really convince me. I know the GM tried to adapt plot elements and bits to make it more fitting to our characters, but I still have the feeling that the material he was given by the mags to go with were resisting his attempts.

I still haven't read the adventures, even though I am pretty sure I won't ever play in any of them, but once I find the time I'd be curious to see how it looks like.

So often did we have the feeling that there was one holy road to be followed and attempts at hiding the lack of choice failed poorly. The coastal road and the trip from the crash site to the Olmani villages come to mind...


Until you hit the Abyss, Lavinia is the key. If the PCs don't love her, the path can easily unravel. In our group, I tweaked the wizard PC's backstory so that she and Lavinia were best friends in school, and asked the player to keep that in mind. I made Urol dote on her and say good things about her all the time, because most of the players loved Urol. It also didn't hurt that, upon the player seeing her picture, he declared that the rogue character had the hots for Lavinia.

Between the three of them (only one--Urol--an NPC), they convinced the rest of the party that their fates and Lavinia's were, and should be, closely tied together.


Failed Saving Throw wrote:

I think part of the problem is that huge chunks of the plot take place off-screen. Meanwhile the PCs are just wandering through mishap after mishap, to the point that the original plot of "get revenge on Vanthus" fades to the background.

I think it's really hard to create realistic motivations for the PCs to stick around and help out Farshore. By the time the PCs meet up with Lavinia again, they've already endured a shipwreck, being hunted by a demon in a strange place they couldn't escape from, almost got TPK'ed by fiendish baboons and the Lemorian Golem, etc. Then they get to Farshore, pirates attack, and once again everyone is begging them to help.

I can tell that when I pull out Vanthus at the end of the adventure, it's just going to be very confusing. "Okay, so now he's some crazy winged demon? What the f%%&?"

Luckily my group is just having fun with the adventure as is, but I can feel that the plot has become really secondary for them, and I don't blame them. It has huge holes in it.

Odd. This really did not feel like the place where the plot started hurting to me. I though the whole point of their coming to this island was as Lavina's muscle while dealing with the colony. This part seems to fit right in with that. Their job is to, uh, do their job. Their the trouble shooters here - thats what Lavina pays them for. We she has trouble and she wants them to shoot it. If the PCs are all tied up emotionally with Lavina this should run well.


Kirth Gersen wrote:

Until you hit the Abyss, Lavinia is the key. If the PCs don't love her, the path can easily unravel. In our group, I tweaked the wizard PC's backstory so that she and Lavinia were best friends in school, and asked the player to keep that in mind. I made Urol dote on her and say good things about her all the time, because most of the players loved Urol. It also didn't hurt that, upon the player seeing her picture, he declared that the rogue character had the hots for Lavinia.

Between the three of them (only one--Urol--an NPC), they convinced the rest of the party that their fates and Lavinia's were, and should be, closely tied together.

I'm totally with Kirth on this. This is a pretty story heavy plot - more so then maybe anything else Paizo has done before or sense. This is the story of Lavina and her Brother Vanthus and all the rest of it, the Fiendish lords, the artifacts, the plot to destroy the world, support but do not replace Lavina and Vanthus' story. The players should be tied tightly to Lavina because she is the focus of this drama. A good DM can maybe get around this - but a good DM can, maybe, get around just about anything.

My feeling is if you have any doubt at all about your players being motivated through this AP then I would start from day one entwining their fates with Lavina's. If the players come to really value Lavina then you will never have to worry about motivating them again (until near the very end of this AP) as they will self motivate. You'll barely have to mention the plot hook before they grab it and run with it.

Lavina is the rich and beautiful damsel in distress. Play that for all its worth. Do whatever you can to tie your players up with Lavina on an emotional level. If you can get them attached to her emotionally your set. This thing will run itself.


I didn't find this the case for my group. My players more so than their characters didn't particularly like that Lavinia was always getting into trouble. They became much more interested in the actual threat of the Shadow pearls. They screwed up and Farshore got destroyed, so that really gave them a taste of how dangerous the pearls were. Once they found out they were being produced in great numbers and distributed into the world the dealing with the Shadow Pearls and the Crimson Fleet became their main focus.

The only adventure I didn't really like running was Wells of Darkness, and even that one had some moments that were pretty good. I think my players have enjoyed the campaign all the way through, and they are looking forward to its epic conclusion. We have about 1 game session left.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Until you hit the Abyss, Lavinia is the key. If the PCs don't love her, the path can easily unravel. In our group, I tweaked the wizard PC's backstory so that she and Lavinia were best friends in school, and asked the player to keep that in mind. I made Urol dote on her and say good things about her all the time, because most of the players loved Urol. It also didn't hurt that, upon the player seeing her picture, he declared that the rogue character had the hots for Lavinia.

Between the three of them (only one--Urol--an NPC), they convinced the rest of the party that their fates and Lavinia's were, and should be, closely tied together.


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
Their job is to, uh, do their job. Their the trouble shooters here - thats what Lavina pays them for. We she has trouble and she wants them to shoot it. If the PCs are all tied up emotionally with Lavina this should run well.

It may (or may not) surprise DMs to find that some players don't like doing their jobs (and will do their best to derail their jobs), even when they want their characters to get paid for doing their jobs.

I'm on board with the other posters that you really have to play up the background of your characters to connect with either Lavinia, or perhaps the Affiliations of Sasserine. It is the NPCs that can help steer a plot away from mindless wandering, which players (or at least my players) are famous for.


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:

Until you hit the Abyss, Lavinia is the key. If the PCs don't love her, the path can easily unravel. In our group, I tweaked the wizard PC's backstory so that she and Lavinia were best friends in school, and asked the player to keep that in mind. I made Urol dote on her and say good things about her all the time, because most of the players loved Urol. It also didn't hurt that, upon the player seeing her picture, he declared that the rogue character had the hots for Lavinia.

Between the three of them (only one--Urol--an NPC), they convinced the rest of the party that their fates and Lavinia's were, and should be, closely tied together.

I'm totally with Kirth on this. This is a pretty story heavy plot - more so then maybe anything else Paizo has done before or sense. This is the story of Lavina and her Brother Vanthus and all the rest of it, the Fiendish lords, the artifacts, the plot to destroy the world, support but do not replace Lavina and Vanthus' story. The players should be tied tightly to Lavina because she is the focus of this drama. A good DM can maybe get around this - but a good DM can, maybe, get around just about anything.

My feeling is if you have any doubt at all about your players being motivated through this AP then I would start from day one entwining their fates with Lavina's. If the players come to really value Lavina then you will never have to worry about motivating them again (until near the very end of this AP) as they will self motivate. You'll barely have to mention the plot hook before they grab it and run with it.

Lavina is the rich and beautiful damsel in distress. Play that for all its worth. Do whatever you can to tie your players up with Lavina on an emotional level. If you can get them attached to her emotionally your set. This thing will run itself.

In hindsight, you're totally right. In my group, only one of the PCs has any real attraction or connection to Lavinia, and that's the Vow of Poverty druid powergamer that (in-game) the rest of the PCs just think is weird. There was an elven warblade who also felt tied to Lavinia and who was serving as somewhat of the party's conscience, but he was killed in a sidequest and replaced with an archivist who doesn't care about Lavinia's problems at all. The elven duskblade/wizard is a ne'er do well ex-noble who doesn't trust Lavinia's "blueblood" roots. And the other two PCs are evil are don't care. :(

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