Cylar Nann's page

A plain reading of the rules says it works. Nothing suggests it's some kind of oversight. It's a simple interaction.

I won't go into argument here because I feel Reddit is so much easier to read these types of topics.

1 Action Blast + 1 Action Blast when needing to move would be stronger with the fire aura junction or even using a different two action impulse.

When you have 3 actions it seems like 1 action blast + 2 action save spell would be better.

Trying to think about when it would be best used. Fire is loaded with amazing AOEs that I think chain infusion isn't even worth considering except maybe against 2 enemies. Even then flying flames would probably be better (because it procs aura on a save). Maybe against bosses this might be useful because the second hit would have a low chance to hit?

I do plan on playing Wood/Fire Kineticist some day and curious if this would be something worth considering. I feel like most of the time if I have 2 actions I would still want to do something else.

we can go even further with a duel gate and "Two-element infusion." Turn those D8s into D10s. If we go with metal and pick up both critical effects. We can do persistent bleed and fire damage. Water critical effect looks also promising but I don't know how that would work with 2 elements.

Although with wood, you can pick up "living bonfire" and add additional d6s of fire damage, with a little setup.

Has there been an official ruling somewhere? I am guessing no, I would love to have this as an option for a Fire/X element combo but it seems very unclear.

There are a lot of reddit thread about whether it ends up as d8s or d10s. There doesn't seem to be a real consensus.

Just not sure I would go into a game expecting it to work this way. There are a lot of things going on with this combination of two element infusion that are strange.

Sand Snatcher doesn't really summon a creature in a game mechanics sense. It is just a magical effect.

Some similar magical effects are Spiritual Guardian and Murderous Vine and various Incarnate spells.

Protector Tree and the Kineticist ability Timber Sentinel that creates the same effect are also similar.

If these magical effects don't say that they block movement, then I would rule that they don't. If they don't mention being able to be attacked, then they can't. If they do mention being able to be attacked, or blocking movement, or other such things like that - then you can use those and the ability will specify how to do it.

But in general, magical effects - whether they are coming from spells or impulses - are not items or creatures.

So you are saying, even though it requires an unoccupied space people can just walk on it like it isn't there? So it seems like the GM can't really stop any of these abilities other than killing the Kineticist. The weird part about Sand Snatcher is it can flank even though it doesn't appear to actually be creature.

I admit I was very surprised, I cast it and the GM asked what he can do to it. I just was looking through all the information and it appears that the answer is nothing except escape. It seemed like the spell seems to summon something so I was thinking things couldn't walk on top of it.

Hello all,

I have been having a lot of fun with Kineticist but ran into an issue with Sand Snatcher. It basically applies to all similar abilities. These abilities make things on spaces but don't have HP/AC/Saves or anything... at least that I can tell.

Off the top of my head there are 3 abilities that come to mind.

Whirling Grindstone - This one doesn't have a size. It says it has to be in an unoccupied square. So I guess it would be small/medium and allies/enemies couldn't walk on it?

Elemental Artillery - This one is medium which implies no one can occupy the square.

Sand Snatcher - This one has the most issues. I finally got this spell and am at high levels. It can be large or huge.

I have no idea how the GM can interact with these. They all take space so I assume no one can walk on these. The things that pop up....

What if the GM wants to attack it? They don't have HP, so it seems like they can't attack them. Also, wouldn't be a particularly good action since it is free to summon.

What if a player or monster wants to move through or stand on one of these squares? It doesn't seem like anything can occupy the spaces. I don't think anything except tiny creatures can occupy the spaces and it seems like they would have to tumble through but there are no stats. So I guess monsters can tumble through for free.

What about AOE effects and abilities like shove? There are no saves, HP or stats in general. Seems like nothing would effect them... this seems kind of weird.

Does it prevent things like walls and other summons from being placed here? I assume counts as a creature for these effects but have no idea.

I REALLY loved the idea of Sand Snatcher but after playing with it at level 17 so many questions popped up that I couldn't answer. I loved the idea of all these abilities but once I used one issues arised.

I enjoyed reading your playtest experiences. Sadly, I think it is safe to say, "this class just isn't for me", at least in the current iteration. It clearly has some powerful focus spells going on.

My main thoughts. It is all subjective and I am sure some people love the things I dislike.

I hate the casting so much. Strongly prefer having pure prepared or spontaneous casting.

It feels like I would just use the same focus spell from level 1-20 that synergizes with my feats. Great at level 1-4 but I would get bored so quick. Maybe just having more variety with the full release will help.

Personally, I don't really like the idea of "changing my role" as a niche. I like to make characters around specific roles.

Avatar... why is this locked behind level 19. Such a cool feature that pretty much no one gets to use. They could just scale like other forms.

I will give one positive note. I feel the class feats are a HUGE step up from most casters. Hopefully the remaster will give us some amazing feats like these for all classes. If some of these things change, there is a good chance my opinion might get more interesting.

I mean, it's probably not a great idea to use two action blasts at higher levels. A proper pyro is going to outdo that math easily with flying flame, nimbus, ignite the sun, and one action basts. The purpose of the 2 action version isn't to be the go to damage option. It's just so every element can have a 2 action impulse for their junction.

Edit: additional points of the pyro. Furnace form becomes something you can keep permanently at level 16. Molten wire can add some additional damage over time to trigger the aura junction. Pyro hurts if you want it to. Especially with larger fights.

In general I do think 2 action elemental blast is really weird. I feel like it should have some sort of scaling to make it used later in the game. It is good from level 1-4, maybe okay at 5 and after 9 I don't think it is ever good to use.

In reality it doesn't make much a difference. By level 9+ you will have so many different impulses and abilities. When you have 2 actions you will most just want to use a different impulse and maybe sometimes do two single action blast.

The only really use for it is proccing your impulse junction if you have no better options for it later.

Power attack isn't particularly good but at least it has some scaling and pretends to be good late game :)

Xenocrat clarified my post. Overall, I think Metal Kineticist will pull their weight no matter what enemies you face. I do hope the GM would be nice and add a few metal monsters here and there!

Just wanted to say... poor Lightning Rod. I feel like impulse balance is much better than spell balance at least.

There are almost pros and cons of every impulse. The problem is Molten Wire is an amazing example of a good single target debuff/damage hybrid ability.

There is a very obscure case of Lightning Rod being "okay". You have a bunch of ranged characters and no other allies that cause off guard, and are fighting one strong enemy. It is pretty much a slightly stronger 2 Action Elemental Blast + 1 Action used on the minor debuff. I agree it is one of the worst impulses when you compare it to all the other amazing things you can do.

It is an okay single target option, Air/Metal doesn't really have much else when it comes to single targets. It does kind of feel like 3 elemental blasts will be better than this though :(. I really wish that it was buffed. It would be so cool to have a good melee impulse for an Air/Metal Kineticist.

Most parties will have no use for this because they will flank or have other ways to give off guard with prone.

Really, if I had a whole bunch of ranged allies though that use attacks, I would probably recommend splashing Water and build around Winter's Sleet.

I haven't played one. For the most part there are 3 abilities that require metal.

Metal Aura Junction: This is amazing when it works and cost nothing if you are going pure metal.

Rain of Rust: This is a decent situational one. I probably wouldn't pick it up though. Also doesn't have damage or a duration...

Magnetic Field: Don't really recommend this one. The effect probably wouldn't even give you a huge advantage.

In general the rest of the abilities are all decent if you never run into a metal enemies. Just gives nice perks of they happen to be metal.

It is 100% campaign dependent. If you have no idea what the campaign I would basically plan around less than 5% for metal creature effects. Some abilities have benefit against metal armor, these ones would be good if fighting a lot of humanoids. So pretty much just don't plan on it.

I have theory crafted a lot about Kineticist. It pairs really well with another element.

Can focus on a stance and tanking focus mainly on shard strike as your main offense and pick up a stance from another element.

Can focus on pure range with magnetic pinions + scrap barricades as your main abilities.

After playing enough PF2 I have just grown to really dislike prepared casting. I just love Spontaneous spellcasting so much more. Signature spells ensure that I will always have a good use of a spell slot for each combat. Pretty much never plan on playing a prepared caster without flexible archetype again.

At this point though I enjoy Kineticist "casting" the most. After thinking about it Kineticist gives me what I always loved about Spontaneous casting but without spell slots.

Basically, every impulse a Kineticist gets is a "signature spell" because of auto scaling.

An example as a Primal Sorcerer my signature spells might be heal (heal)/fireball (aoe damage)/fear (support) so I always have something to cast for the circumstance.

Kineticist I could have Torrent of Blood + Ocean's Balm (heal) / Tidal Hands (aoe damage) / Winter's Sleet (support). Which allows me to do something different depending on the circumstance.

Just hope we get more casters like this that lose spell slots but get to choose multiple spell like abilities that have unlimited casting.

I will just say, I have a player just like you in my game. They will play a caster and complain every time they cast a spell how "useless" they are except for damage. The spell can completely destroy an encounter and the player still thinks it was a waste. There is LITERALLY nothing I can do to change their mind, so I doubt we can help you here.

Won't even try to target monsters based on the saves and complains how their spells never hit. Somehow even a -3 penalty is seen as bad. As a GM it just drove me crazy. My encounters were decimated by casters using spells efficiently. I remember so many encounters trivialized because of spells like walls and debuffs like slow. Yet they always felt they never were good enough.

I have played PF1 where you just cast Glitterdust on multiple monsters and they lose over 8 ac from one spell and can't hit. IMO this is not a fun way to have a game. So many battles are won on the first round. 5e also has elements of this. Just giving everybody advantage almost always ends in combat being a joke.

No, I did not enjoy playing casters more in these systems. It is not fun having a battle determined 90% of the time by one spell.

PF2 you actually want to combo with allies. The only really advice I can give is... use initiative to your advantage. You can literally triple the effectiveness of a spell if you delay for your allies.

The reality is the player, and you will never be happy with spellcasting because he wants his spells to basically say "this monster is useless for the battle". Of course, you both say this isn't what you want but every example you gave the spells had just as much impact as a martial yet that "wasn't good enough".

This quote is the best example of this.

I cast a spell that causes Difficult terrain? Cool! Behold as...!
The... enemies... simply use the rest of their actions to literally reach me anyway so that they can hit me on their next turn despite what I did. So what that tells me is that... not much changed.

You cast one spell that wasted one or more monster's ENTIRE TURN yet you think it was bad... Why do you think a spell should do more than that? In reality there are plenty of spells that can potentially do more than this within PF2.

I have been really going into theory crafting Kineticist but not sure what to get when it comes to items.

My current character is a level 16 Air Kineticist without Kinetic Activation (I made the class pretty quick) with Loremaster and Ghost free archetype.

I got all the mandatory "skill, armor runes etc"... but now I am stumped. I could pick up some extra resistances I guess.

If you go the "mage route" with a dedication and/or kinetic activation it seems good to pick up wand and a staff would be good.

If you don't go the "mage route" I have no idea what to buy. I feel this way with all characters though. There never seems to be anything I want to buy outside of the +X items.

One day I will have to go through all the items thoroughly. I am sure there must be something fun to buy... The problem is anything with a flat item DC just scales so bad that I find them useless. So many items have this issue.

so that doesn't really answer the original question then.

For my characters, I always like to grab earplugs and a climbing kit(or just a grappling hook). So I was curious what other people like to grab for thier gear.

Just reread this comment. I thought you were talking about magic items. Maybe it is just games I am in, but I never put much thought into starting gear like this. Mostly because I don't like to fill my inventory full of junk... In every game of PF1/5e/PF2 when I used this stuff is almost always irrelevant. Maybe there are some GMs that really dig into the survival aspects and needing everything like rations etc.

In PF2 I just make sure I have the correct tools like healer's tools, thieves' tools for my skills and rope.

I was thinking about this and Kineticist oddly combo AMAZING with other Kineticist. Some examples...

Enemies can't move: Basically ravel of thorns combos with difficult terrain so well that having an ally spam it is great!

Ravel of Thorns + Athletics (Whip)

Kineticist spamming difficult terrain. Eventually picking up sand snatcher.

Burning Death: Enemies will just burn to death and the kineticist could focus entire on defense with Timber Sentinel / Fruit / Healing etc..

Fire + Water Kineticist + Thermal Nimbus + Incendiary Aura + Fire Aura Junction

Wood + Earth Kineticist + Ravel of Thorn + Earth Aura Junction. Enemies can't get to the fire Kineticist easily.

The real combos start at 10+ though. Once Kineticist get aura shaping things seem very bad for enemies. 20 Ft Ravel of Thorn + Difficult Terrain + Sand Snatcher for single targets or area control spells for multiple mobs (pallisade/sanguivolent roots etc...)

I will just note a few things of what I LOVE about PF2 and what I want carried over.

I love that most of PF2 feats are not just static number increases. Coming from PF1/5e where most feats were just +X to something.

Characters are more or less balanced with numbers. You don't see one Rogue hitting with +19 while another Rogue is attacking with a +10 to hit.

Martials are designed great. Their feats and subclasses can completely change their playstyle.

I would want Kineticist to be a base class and other casters to follow suite. I love the unique spell list and that feats dramatically change your playstyle. It isn't rare to play a caster get an even level and barely even care that you got a feat...

I also think the archetype system is the BEST form of multiclassing I have ever seen. So great to pick up off class abilities without breaking the game or becoming useless. Also please make free archetype the default :).

Ancestry feats are also really cool, and I think ancestral paragon should be the default too. 4 levels are a long time to wait. Of course, I think all races should be fleshed out more like the core races.

You are probably wandering "wouldn't this be too many feats". Yes, but I am hoping they get rid of general and skill feats. They are completely unnecessary imo. Just give players the "mandatory" one like intimidating glare, continual recovery and titan wrestler by default.

With class feats + free archetype + ancestral paragon players will just always be making fun choices. My least favorite part of having new Pathfinder 2e players is explaining skill feats. Almost every new player looks through them and say something like "these almost all feel useless". Yes if they have intimidation and medicine they appreciate them.

The good general feats are mostly just small boring power boosts. Don't think they really add a lot. I just got fleet>toughness>initiative etc...

My hope is that they just take a page from video games and Kineticist for PF3.

Having every class having about 50-100 unique spells would be far more interesting. Then the feats can really be tailored for fun. Of course a few abilities can be shared.

Having 500+ spells for each traditions makes it very hard to make fun feats and make casters different.

This just makes me think of all the threads I have read over the years...

Why play Occult Sorcerer over Bard

Why play Witch over Wizard.

Why play Primal Sorcerer over Druid etc.

Right now they do a pretty good job with focus spells differentiating classes but sometimes I do just feel like I am playing a slightly different character if I am playing a character with the same tradition.

I am often just using the majority of my turn casting slow, haste, fear etc...

Kineticist is an amazing archetype imo. Early game the good utility impulses for combat... (there are tons of out of combat ones)

Armors: A lot of armors that can be useful (Earth/Wood Metal).

Air

Four Winds: Great utility, can get everyone into better positions.

Earth

Stepping Stones: Could be used to help your allies get to where they need.

Geologic Attunement: 10 ft tremor sense could be okay.

Fire

Burning Jet: Probably wouldn't take Kineticist just for this. It can be okay.

Water

Deflecting Wave: Amazing if you aren't using your reaction often.

Ocean's Balm: Nice little heal

Winter's Clutch: On demand 10 foot burst of difficulty terran + small damage is really nice.

Wood

Fresh produce: Decent if your party has all free hands.

Timber sentinel: Great support option.

One thing to note, Impulses need a free hand. So for combat abilities they will be rough while dual wielding. Should work for bows easily though.

When you get to high levels of 8+ there are just too many options to go through :). At level 16 you can pick up permanent flight for the whole team though...

I haven't got to play yet but to me it seems really right to me...

Basically 2 good options. Caster version...

Sustain 3x Vessel Spell
Sustain 1x Vessel Spell + 2 actions (90% of the time I feel it would be spell)

Fighting version.
Start combat with a good spell+move/start sustain (embodiment or shapeshift)
Sustain + attack + other action

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like a huge cost to switch apparitions in combat. Most battles for me last 2-3 rounds.

I do like that I have the option to change up my turns but the opportunity cost just seems so high to me. Do people feel they are more effective constantly switch vessels spells mid combat?

Other casters get to just cast whatever focus spells they want whenever they want.

One thing about Living Bonfire - a dual element Fire/Wood blast can benefit from Fire's impulse junction (also, the bonfire itself can), which brings the base blast up to 60' range for d10 mixed bludgeoning/fire damage, and the added dice of the bonfire are d8s. Whether this specific combination bumps it up or not, I dunno - it's a very specific setup.

Desert Wind's drawback of making things concealed to your allies can probably be negated with Safe Elements.

I thought the majority of people state this isn't how it works...

I just wouldn't go into a game expecting a GM to allow dual impulse fire/X to go up to D10.

If your GM allows it, that is fine. I looked a lot into this and seemed like most people state Fire/Wood etc end up D8. There are a lot of Kineticist things that could use official clarification.

I feel like Animal Companion and Familiar Master from the APG just make it so easy if you want your character to focus on familiars.

There are also so many races with free familiars.

I am not against it or anything. Just feel they did such a good job with these archetypes anyone can easily grab one.

Of course the downside is it delays using any other archetypes.

I do think a 6 elemental composite would be cool. So just wanted to add one. The earliest would be level 17. Your character would have 0 in junctions so I feel like it could be really powerful.

True Master of Elements Form: Stance/Polymorph.

Gives a one action attack that does 6d6 (1d6 of each element) +X damage

A passive for each element

Air: Flying movement equal to speed
Earth: AC
Fire: Enemies take persistent fire damage within aura.
Metal: Pull or push all enemies start of turn (attaches metal to the creatures)
Water: Healing Aura
Wood: Temporary hit points every round

Obviously not balanced but a fun idea mixes all elements into an amazing stances.

I am confused why everyone is talking about damage. IF Kineticist had spell DC you could pick up utility debuffs spells like level 3 fear and similar spells. Oddly I am drawing a blank on good debuffs focus spells, there must be some...

On a side note there are plenty of good focus spells to pick up on Kineticist and every character! Just not offensive ones.

So, what class features of Animist are going to be not provided or hobbled in the Multiclass Archetype?

I personally think Animist should have more going for it than "strong focus spells". Not sure how much the playtest will change but right now I really don't like many of their other features. The "special" thing Animist would get...

The subclasses, Apparition Whirl, Possession and future ones.

The mix of prepared and spontaneous casting. Also, you can juggle the apparitions.

No, I am not a huge fan of these things, except the feats are powerful. It is very common to "steal most features of a class, but with slower progression". Not sure why Animist would be any different...

This is a different discussion but, I think their focus spell should be balanced to other focus spells and they should have more distinct features that make them fun than raw focus spell power. It would be nice if avatar was a scaling feature to interact from 1-20.

First think I notice when I look at the class "very powerful focus spells". Then I look at the rest of the class... I admit I am quite disappointed. The class seems really powerful right now but not seeing the fun right now. I know I might be the minority though. Some people seem to really like their design.

Psychic as an example get all sorts of fun features. They keep getting new focus spells and can go "super mode" for 2 turns while having interseting 3rd actions.

I am a huge Kineticist fan but don't really see the point in this... Why make Kineticist feats that are extremely limited. Just more Kineticist impulses in general would be better so you can mix and match them! I REALLY HOPE WE GET A KINETICIST EXPANSION BOOK :). If someone is making more impulses I want them to be even hard to pick up.

I feel like the extra restrictions of 3/4/5/6 are unnecessary.

I feel if more composite impulses are being created, they should just be more dual focused ones. There are tons of opportunities for these. Level 10-20 is already missing composite impulses.

Anyway, some idea for more dual composite impulses,

Flaming Forest (Wood/Fire): Create 3 trees that attack enemies for bludgeoning damage and cause persistent burning and bleeding damage.

Flame Sword (Fire/Metal): Sustain, Create a sword that uses your spell attacks and deal slashing and fire damage.

Healing Breeze (Water/Air): Sustain, heal an ally and move that ally or push all enemies around that ally.

Flame Coffin (Earth/Fire): Encase an enemy in earth. They are restrained and takes fire damage at the start of each time. Would have incapacitation of course.

Grasping Wires(Wood/Metal): Create grasping vines of metal that grapple foes until broken. (pretty much Black Tentacles)

Of course, these aren't balance. I just think there are endless possibilities in impulses with just dual and single impulses that 3+ aren't necessary.

While I am fairly certain that the strongest vessel spells are likely to be toned down quite a bit, I think it is also worth stressing just how important the action cost to Sustain is here: already on the Animist, you'll generally need Sustaining Dance to be able to move around, Sustain, and then either Strike or Cast a Spell, and opting into both via multiclassing is likely to be fairly costly. On classes that already have busy action economies, like Magi or shield Champions, it's unlikely to be worth it.

If it follows normal dedication players would pick up the archetype at 2, grab the focus spell at 4 and the pickup sustaining dance at 6. For some reason Psychic is an outlier and gets them right away...

The feat investment is a little steep. I wouldn't mind giving up picking these up though.

Maybe it is just my experience, but most characters often are in the position where they have 2 actions for attacks (or cast a spell) and 1 action for utility. Very rarely do I see a player use all 3 actions offensively and be effective.

Using one action for minor movement and pretty strong effect would be great for many characters.

The only exception for me is Kineticist, the class is built around always having ways to effectively use 3 actions.

If this is an option, I would 100% do this rather than play the Animist. Nothing else really interest me about them. I don't think this is a bad thing, the class just has just doesn't interest me much outside the focus spells. Right now they have the oddball casting, which some players like, I do not.

I do think that is the point of archetypes though, it allows players to take what they like from the class and mix them with their own class features. Every other class let's you do this. Witch (you can't get cantrips). You could get almost every other class early focus spells easily.

Honestly I also think that the most complains about staking Earth's Bile and off-encounter Garden of Healing are overrated and after further analysis both are different from what we normally get but still OK. It's just efficient in what they need to be.

I made a graphic comparison between the Earth's Bile, an Elemental Sorcerer and Draconic Sorcerer both primarily focused in blasts using its focus spells and a Kineticist and in general the 3 Biles is in par in power level with other casters it's just stronger in earlier levels (1-5) but honestly usually the PF2 casters receives complains about being weak in these levels.

About Garden of Healing being strong in off-encounter this is true but for other side the Animist is so focused in use of its focus spells that you usually have to wait 30-40 minutes to full refocus basically taking the same time that other off-encounter healings would take to do same healing.

So I don't se a real need to nerf. Currently my only complain about the class is its spell slot clunkness due it divide its spell slots by half addming more micro-managament and restricting the flexibility of its spell casting.

Your graph shows Earth Bile does more damage sometimes and close to a min/maxed Kineticist who offers almost zero utility outside of damage and is in melee until level 10+. Also, the Sorcerer/Kineticist is doing partial single target damage. How can you say it doesn't need a nerf?

I guess I am mostly just upset that I really enjoy the Kineticist, but Earth's Bile and Garden of Healing just do what a specialized Kineticist healing/damage (Water/Fire) does but better while having spellcasting. Also requires a total of two feats for the Animist to do this.

Of course, Kineticist still have a lot of fun abilities at higher levels, at low levels Animist overshadow other classes. I guess this mostly comes down to them get everything at level 1. Other classes progressively get better focus/different abilities as they level up.

I am surprised they did this. While leveling I would get bored of this character really easy... There wouldn't really be anything to look forward to that really changes my gameplay. Yes there are some powerful feats but other than sustaining dance I didn't see many that changed my gameplay much. Normally other characters you are constantly getting new special attack or focus spells...

As someone who's spent a lot of time lately talking about how the Animist is overtuned and in need of nerfs, I'd say that the special Avatar form and the class's feats are just about the least controversial parts of the class. The general controversy in discussion has been around the versatility of apparition stacking and the power of some vessel spells, but having a different form for your Avatar has so far registered as completely unproblematic, particularly as it's one of those features that manages to be really flavorful without really adding much power (divine casters get to cast Avatar anyway for similar forms).

Focus spells are mostly just more powerful version of other classes to me. I just wanted to say Avatar forms would have been really unique/fun if they were lower level... I would guess very few people get to level 19 and if they do the campaign ends shortly after.

Surprised they didn't have them as scaling form spells like animal form. Having to wait until level 19 (I am not aware of a way to get them earlier). This would make the class way more unique for me rather than just being X class but with better focus spells and weird spellcasting. Feel like the class would feel much more unique this way.

Strike.
Stoke the Heart.
Needle of Vengeance.
Guidance.
Shield.
Aid.
Trip.
Sustaining Spiritual Weapon

I don't think any of these are really better than 1 action heal, I don't feel the any of the options you listed are particularly strong except for trip though. Glad you enjoy using them though, Witch buffs are coming! Of course, as a spell slot I would probably never use 1 action heal in general except maybe for Cleric.

I will admit trip has amazing situational potential if you are with a lot of martials with attack or opportunity. Aid might be good at low levels, but it is really just based on what the GM lets you do. If GM just lets you aid with your best skill that would be great. I always try to grab the feats that let you skip asking permission :)

Here is kind of the big thing about most of them, they are technically one action but either from positioning or action requirements are effectively two, E.g. you need to strike to take advantage of witness's and stalker, you need to stride to take advantage of Vanguard's.

This is an interesting point. I was more talking about the ones that don't requires attack. If you are sustaining + attacking you won't be casting a spell. I feel like you cast both Embodiment of Battle and Darkened Forest Form when you are done casting spells and ready to attack the rest of the battle.

River Carving Mountains: I have no idea what to do with this one. It seems useless. There must be something I am missing... has someone made actually use out of this?

Embodiment of Battle: This one is just sad early on. Late game it looks like you might be able to rival a Martial though. Unless of course Martial's can pick this up... that is a different discussion though.

Darkened Forest Form: Seems great, this doesn't really have anything to do with my argument though. If I can get this on Monk easily becomes a amazing shapeshifter build... again that is in a different discussion.

Aww everyone complaining about 1 action heal...

Look over at Kineticist and that is the best heal I get until level 6 and comes with a 10 minute immunity.

I am curious what 1 action are better than maxed one action heal for a caster? I feel like pre Animist any support character would love picking up Oceans Balm.

That is kind of what I am getting at, that would be considered a good action for most casters right now and Animist trumps them easily.

Casters right now get like 1d4 single target damage from one action "good" ability. Maybe this will all change in the remaster. Things like shield, guidance just didn't hold a candle to Animist.

I think Sorcerer focus spell is the most damaging one at 1d8 but uses map, misses all the time and you don't get to sustain it.

There is one other point that I don't think I've seen addressed.

The Animist REALLY wants long rest periods between each encounter to refocus. I think that the actual at the table power of the class is going to be very significantly impacted by how often they get 30 or even 40 minutes between combats (3 focus points spent in combat combined with an out of combat healing).

If I'm right it is going to be quite hard to get a consensus on how powerful the class actually is as GM style is going to have a greater than normal impact

This is a good point. I am looking at Animist from an optimizing perspective. It just feels like if a group rest 30 minutes between every battle the Animist is just bonkers.

This kind of just makes them cantrips unless people are limiting "rests"

At least compared to what we have now. Right now their abilities are just way better than other 1 action abilities except maybe Bard or Strike (but there is map).

Someone will use their third action to Demoralize, raise shield, force bolt etc...

Animist use their third action...

All enemies nearby have disadvantage of first attack.

Damaging spell better than electric arc.

Healing that rivals 1 action heal. Half but AOE.

Just seems crazy to me. I can't imagine other casters at a table feeling good right now... Except for Bards of course.

What is your take on the Remastered? How do you feel about the fact Spellcasters are now just trained in Spell Attack Modifier and Spell DC? What do you hope to honestly see with this and the change from alignment to spirit damage making many builds more powerful. What is a fear you feel will happen with the Remastered?

I admit I am mostly confused about the remaster. I have been following the remaster semi casually (way more than anyone else I play PF2 with). Originally, I thought the remaster wasn't supposed to change much balance and it was mostly to get rid of all the DnD things.

What fear do I have? The changes I am reading seem to basically be "buffs all across the board for a lot of classes, casters specifically" and I am not aware of any buffs to monsters. I feel encounter difficulty is at a very good place but worried after remaster the difficulty is going to be too easy.

Cylar Nann wrote:

I just wish Kineticist got some casting DC by default for casting archetypes with this change...

Impulses are just spells with a different name. It would be fun to pick up some offensive spells with Kineticist.

Spells two ranks below the standard spellcasting rank for your level - already aren't combat offensive spells. No matter how accurate you are with them.

A level 5 Water Kineticist that can throw out 2d8 cold damage with one action, or 2d8+4 cold damage with two actions isn't likely to look favorably on a single spell slot of rank 1 Snowball that does 2d4 cold damage for two actions. They would be more inclined to cast Mud Pit instead no matter what their accuracy with these spells are.

Oh, I meant offensive as in debuffs, stuff like level 3 fears and focus spells that have Debuffs. Right now I am drawing a blank of any focus spells with a debuffs I would ever want to cast on a Kineticist.

I just wish Kineticist got some casting DC by default for casting archetypes with this change...

Impulses are just spells with a different name. It would be fun to pick up some offensive spells with Kineticist.

Not giving martials spell scaling DC by default just limited spellcasting archetype options. I understand why they might want that. Luckily there are a few like Monk/Champion that still, as long as nothing changes with them.

I am really surprised anyone doesn't want these things nerfed. Their focus spells are a lot better than the competition as is.

Of course, we have no idea what the remaster will hold. If every caster gets buffs like this the game seems like it will be very easy...

I feel like this is true for almost are their focus spells. They are just better than the competition as of now.

Channeler Stance + Earth's Bile: Destroys everyone in sustained ranged damage.

Channeler Stance + Garden of Healing: Destroys everyone in sustained healing.

Poor Kineticist looks really weak compared to these abilities. Lucky there are still plenty of things Kineticist has going for them.

Embodiment of Battle: Ends up destroying any other caster trying to be hybrid martial. Of course, it starts out pretty bad.

Discomfiting Whispers: Has to be the best defensive ability in the game. Disadvantage on the enemies strongest attack is amazing.

I am not sure why it is this way. It couldn't be on accident... If all casters are getting buff like this, I am really worried about battles becoming way too easy.

It is just a playtest and remaster is coming I am trying no to be too negative but we have nothing else to compare too.

Just look at their focus spells and compare them to others classes. They are better than one cast focus spells and can be sustained.

Focus spells are pretty much at will with the changes to focus points. 3 per battle.

My poor Kineticist gets 1d8 scaling on 2+ action overflows while Animist gets 1d4+spell level scaling on one action,
Originally I thought that was pretty good...

Their other focus spells aren't any worse. Better martial proficiencies than any other casters by far (kind of pointless with a Bard in the group), shapeshifting that seems better with the status bonus, the best defense aura.

The problem is, how do we give feedback when we have no idea what other casters are getting... Right now they just seem flat out amazing.

If you are using current playtest Animist vs current Cleric and don't mind the complicated aspects Animist wins easily for me.

I feel playtest Animist really overshadows many characters though. Their feats and focus spells are both amazing while being fun. Sounds like things might potentially change with the remaster and we are mostly in the dark.

Clerics get extra heal slots and most domain spells that are mostly weak. When I was helping our Cleric in our most recent campaign, in was painful to even find feats that were interesting without going into archetypes. This is a problem with a lot of casters.

Right now, though Animist from a mechanical perspective easily trumps Cleric for me unless you REALLY like extra heal/harm slots.

Just look at any focus spell from Animist, they are all powerful and change your playstyle dramatically, except for RIVER CARVING MOUNTAINS, I don't know what to do with this except run away...

I feel like dancing around healing with 1-3x GARDEN OF HEALING would be way more fun than casting the heal spell. Of course, it requires teamwork/coordination.

I think Animist Focus spells and feats easily top the caster chart... At this point I am just curious to see how/if they get nerfed and if casters get anything fun in the remaster.

Right now, it seems like Animist focus spells rival Kineticist at will abilities while having near full casting too... Of course, other classes have plenty of unique things.

Earth and fire focus spell damage for 1 action, given that you can stack 2-3 of them round 1 and keep them up the whole combat already kinda does this without external help...

As an example, at that level 14, you can be doing 16d4+14+7 (54+7) persistent from round 1 till round 10 of a combat, for 2 focus points, and still have an action remaining each round for maybe a 3rd blast or a different focus spell.

Yeah, this seems off... it is a playtest after all though. These vessel spells powers are insane compared to what we have now. Just sustaining three vessels spells and dancing around seems very powerful to me.

I haven't done the math, but I feel like this would put Kineticist and ranged martial damage to shame.

Of course, they could just limit it like hexes/compositions to one at a time. I feel this just sidesteps the issue though. Casting one of these plus a 2-action spell seems like it would still really beat out other casters.

It is just weird seeing these 2 classes looking so powerful at the start. From every other playtest I followed classes were always average/weak and called for buffs... I missed Kineticist playtest so I have no idea what that was like. This design philosophy is fine, in my experience in video games people get REALLY upset at nerfs though :(.

Honestly I just want a caster that just uses focus spells and cantrips. No spell slots at all, I think I'd that was made with vanilla enough flavor and decent focus spells, with the ability through dedications to pick up others and have their class features interact with them. Bonus points if the options allow you to narrow your focus.

After seeing Kineticist I want more casters like this. Without creating new classes it would be cool if they made class archetypes for the current casters that state "character loses all spell slot progression and gains 3 focus points. After each encounter the character regains 3 focus point.".

The real question is... what could the character gain for these losses. Maybe martial proficiencies? or maybe letting players pick up spells 2 or 3 levels lowers than them as "focus spells" but wouldn't heighten.

Of course, just having new classes based around this concept would be much better.

On a more positive note. With the spellcasting proficiency changes and focus point changes players can kind of build their own focus casters with a martial class that gets automatic spellcasting DC like a monk/champion. I guess this is also under the assumption Monk/Champion count for the universal proficiency. They are worded a bit differently currently. Of course, your accuracy would be at -2/-3 less as a full caster.

It is a funny thought that you can now go 16 in two casting stat and for half the game be equal to a maxed out caster in both...

I do love the change. Will make combining caster classes very easy. Now if only there was a way to get caster DC without having to grab Basic>Expert>Master Spellcasting.

With this change, focus spell changes and free archetype it will be fun utilizing focus spells.

Monks could even go CHA or INT and end up with decent casting :).

Overall I am way more excited for focus changes. Grabbing 3 focus spells with or without free archetype will make early game very fun.

This really comes down to the remaster changing things. Right now these focus spells seem to very powerful compared to other classes except Psychic.

If they are like any of class you would be able to get them at level 4. Psychic for some reason gets their at level 2.

If you can't get them through Archetypes, the archetype would pretty much add nothing though.

Personally I like "poachable" focus spells though. I find it fun picking up these.

I could see myself picking up Shapeshifting and the healing one on my Kineticist :).

Right now I feel like Animist Feats at half level trump most my caster feats though :(.

I think it very fun picking up focus spells from other classes

Easily Kineticist. From a mechanics perspective it is just perfect for me. Every feat is just pure fun for me and you get so many.

I think Aang following the show order makes a lot of sense.

Dual Gate Air/Water
-This just gives amazing support with Four Winds and Ocean's Balm

Level 5 Fork the Path to Earth
- Can pick any support ability or Tremor is a solid damage overflow.

Level 9 Fork the Path to Fire
- Solar Detonation is great against mobs.
- Sadly, fire really loses out in the build because you really want Fire Impulse Junction, but it will be a nice addition.

The character would start as a great support and by higher level deal respectable damage.

Level 13 and 17 you can pick up metal/wood. He didn't get these in the show but it makes since for PF2.

For PFS early levels I feel single gate Kineticist feels better though from a mechanical perspective because the early junction feels great. Dual Gate for me really picks up by 9 though when you get to combo 2 junctions and gets better from there.

I decided to skip playing Aang in my campaign though. I just love the playstyle of dual gate too much. Just fits my playstyle better. I really enjoy the versatility of 2+ elements to mono elements long term.

Applied_People wrote:

I hope the two classes being revealed tomorrow will ultimately be able to muster as much excitement.

Worst case scenario, the two new classes are mediocre and I still have my kineticist.

Best case scenario, the two new classes are actually very fun and I still have my kineticist.

Yup Kineticist should hold me for a long time. I really can't see myself getting bored of Kineticist anytime soon. It would be nice for a new class to excite me as much, but have a feeling that won't happen for a long time.

I had zero expectations with Kineticist, never even looked at the playtest.

Who knows though, maybe they will make a new class that blows me away. I am still amazed by how fun and interesting Kineticist. It really renewed my excitement for PF2 by itself.

Never really expected a class to be this different.

It's not perfect, certain combinations feel really strong while others feel a bit difficult to make work

I personally don't think this is true except fire. Fire really benefits from Fire Aura Junction and Fire Impulse Junction. Even then by level 9 taking both junctions and another elements should work fine. Delaying any of the two junctions seems rough for me though.

All the other element combinations you can just pick and choose your favorite elements. You can also "minor" in an element and only use it for utility. I really can't see an element combination that doesn't have good possibilities.

Single gate starts out so much faster than dual gate to me though. Those impulse junctions are fun to build around.

I love kineticist so damn much. Barely gotten to play the release version (just played as a gmnpc in a game I ran because I was desperate, some players were surprised by the utility) but I will definitely be playing one asap.

There are a couple things about the class that bugs me but it checks all the boxes I wanted it to going into the class. The fews things that bug me are nitpicky at best (could be clearer on how some things work, gm variation usually means I steer clear of certain impulses). I do hope we get more impulses at some point, I find single element builds don't have enough choice if they want to be pure kineticist (no archetype).

Honestly I don't know if I can even go back to building other classes anymore

Glad I am not the only one that feels like Kineticist is that GOOD. No, I am not talking about power but just fun. It just seems so fun to build and can't wait to play it more.

I agree single element is often "take the best combat feats". Then you can reflow to the utility feats if you think they are necessary for the adventure/day. At the same time you still get tons of options in combat even single gate. I feel single gate is much better early levels though. The impulse junction is so nice to play around since you will cast the element 100% of the time. There are still quite a few choices to make with single gate though.

On the reverse end starting dual gate it is almost painful missing so many feats. My abomination vaults characters is Wood/Water and I just can't fit everything I want. This is a GOOD thing though. I don't think there has ever been another class where the choices are so hard.

I planned the character to level 10 and there are 7+ feats I really want in the build...

Kineticist has so many feats I would love to grab that even with double class feats with just two elements I still couldn't get everything I want.

For me it is definitely a YAY, by far the most interesting class I have ever seen. It takes everything I like about PF2 combat and casting while putting in on a class with limitless resources. They get to choose from a huge array of unique abilities while having limitless resources. You can specialize as much as you want, or you can just go for pure versatility.

For the next 6 campaigns I will probably only being playing Kineticist. They really are that good to me. They are just SO flexible I am amazed. You can go pure crowd control / support / tank / damage, healing or any combination. Really though I just LOVE their support abilities...

There are definitely arguments that maybe casters can do things better, but it is very refreshing to just be able to do whatever you want every combat and won't have to be conservative. Their only really weakness would be a campaign with 1-2 fights a day. At that point you can just play a caster.

What general builds work best in your opinion? Really it seems like you can go any direction with the class. I can't really think of a combat build / role they couldn't do.

Sadly, I mostly have just been able to theory craft. Lots of cancelations in our current game. So far my builds are...

Level 15 Air - The utility from air is just amazing. I can't really recommend it enough. Just plain fun.

Level 3 Fire (PFS) - Definitely fun and seems like the damage output will skyrocket at level 5 (Aura Junction) + Thermal Nimbus

Level 1 Water/wood - Haven't got to play this, the amount of healing and utility the character can put out should be amazing though. Mostly just focusing on water for the Water Impulse junction. Thier only real weakness is single target healing is low so allies will have to play smart and try to spread the damage around.

My excitement could definitely be overblown, but it is easy to just pick an ability and make an entire build around it.

Glad you changed your mind. I am still not sure about the class. I had one player who played it from level 1-11 and he thought the class was really underpowered. There was a Fighter and Wizard in the group and I was using free archetype. I feel like Fighter tends to cause this issue in general.

He just felt like he was a worse version of both of them.

To me Summoner seems to just be about having 4 actions but being weaker. Like a lot of things in PF2 balance can hurt some people's expectation. Summons in general... In my experience most players want a character that EXCELS at something. Of course, if a player wants to be a "jack of all trades" Summoner feels great.

I mostly just get to theory craft right now. I have been theory crafting Summoner with Free Archetype (Kineticist). Would make the Summoner feel much more impactful without having to use spell slots while having the Eidolon mostly being the support. At the same time Free Archetype Kineticist at 12+ just seems insanely strong.

At the end of the day this always comes up when I am theory crafting Summoner... Why not just play Caster + Animal Companion or now Kineticist + Animal Companion. Of course, technically you can go Beast Master + Summoner but I don't think GMs would be happy with you having 3+ characters every turn.

I will just state I hate "wave casting". I don't want to have 4 good turns an adventuring day... My experience is with Magus and it is just personal preference. I know they can get more slots, but I like having limitless options (Martial/Kineticist) or Tons of Spell Slots (Casters). I know it is my fault, but I really didn't think I would miss it so much.

I played PF1 Summoner and almost every archetype's Eidolon clashes with Summons just as much. The only difference was that the summons were so broken in PF1 I didn't need an Eidolon. I wasn't allowed to use the archetypes that synergized with summons :(. I don't blame the GM though, PF1 summons + Eidolon (master summoner) just seemed like it would be out of control.

I know it isn't likely but I really just want more books like Advanced Player Guide. As a player there is nothing that has been even close to as good to me.

As a GM I would like more Bestiaries and another GMGs. So the books would be.

BOOK 1 APG 2
Classes: Kineticist / Shifter / Inquisitor / Skald
Other than that just more archetypes and feats for classes/ancestries that could use more feats.

Book 2 GMG 2
Really have no idea what could be in this book, but more variant rules might be fun.

Book 3 Bestiary 4
Pretty much the reverse of the APG imo as a GM. I know there are a lot of monsters in the game already but the way PF2 works it really pays off to have a lot of monsters in each level range.

If I was able to only be a player it would 100% be APG 2, APG 3, APG 4

Is this really something people do regularly? Planning on retraining entire feat lines so you can be better at certain levels seems strange to me.

I understand retraining things like armor/weapon proficiencies.

Also if a player picks a feat that ends up weak that is understandable but retraining at certain levels just to be maximum efficieny at every level from 1-20 seems a but off to me.

I read the core rulebook and advanced players guide pretty much cover to cover except for skipping items/spells since there are just too many to look through.

I did just buy a tablet so I have been trying to read them whenever I find time. Not sure about others but I just can't sit there reading a "lore" book for multiple hours. My mind wanders a lot while reading these types of books.

My favorite books have easily been the CRB, APG and GMG though. They just give so many options of how to actually play PF2 as a player and GM!

How do you sustain two spells as a Summoner? When referencing the flaming sphere example are stating at level 7+ are you just talking about using Magical Adept and casting a lower level version?

Couldn't any Eidolon just pick up that feat though?

Is there any way for the Eidolon to sustain a Summoner's spells?

That seems really cool and all but unless I am mistaken the Eidolon only has two spells per day most the game.

Do you have any other benefits of the Fey Summoner? I have a player in my campaign with a Fey Eidolon and seems a little underwhelming. Level 5 currently. It seems like at level 9+ (expert spellcasting) it will be much better but that is a lot of time spent playing.

The other Eidolons really feel like they bring very unique things to the table from level 1-20. Fey Eidolon feels really slow to me before it starts feeling like a decent secondary caster. Beast Charge, Dragon Breath and Tendril Strike on the other hand seem great from level 1.