CEBrown's page

When I sit down and rank my intetest in pathfinder's classes, I find the occult classes are all in my top half. Kineticist, medium, and mesmerist are actually my top 3 overall. Occultist makes the top 10 right in there among the six level "skill casters" like Inquisitor and Alchemist. I have zero intetest in Summoner, but something about Spiritualist resonates with me more than it's obvious parent. Same with Psychic. Both barely make the top half (there are 35 classes, so, the top 17).

I am probably an usual player though. I like more unconventional stuff, I don't want to just be really strong and hit stuff, and I really hate vancian casting and pets, so my bottom 3 are wizard, cleric, and cavalier. I suspect that the same stuff I love about OA so far is exactly what most people dislike, so, to each their own. But, yeah, this book seems custom written for me, so, consider me enthused.

Except that the Kinetecist MIGHT make my top 10 but probably not, and I personally LIKE Vancian casting, you pretty much match my views there.

Otherwise they'd be "stuck" at 1d6 (plus 1 to 3) until level 6, then it jumps to 2, then 3 at 9...
Right now it's "0d6" at 1 and 2, 1d6 at 3, 4 & 5, 2d6 at 6... etc.

I am somewhat confused on how painful stair works. Does it not get a 1d6 added to the mesmerist's damage until level 3, meaning at level 1 all your adding is a pitiful 1 point of damage, or do you in fact get 1d6 at level 1? Any clarification on this would be grateful as I want to test out this class!

AFAICT from this thread, people are REQUESTING it start at 1d6 at level one, but currently, until level 3, the Mesmerist gets the same bonus everyone else does (half his level, rounded up, so 1 point at 1 and 2, then 1d6+2 at 3 and 4, 1d6+3 at 5, 2d6+3 at 6, etc.)

Can't speak to the mechanics as haven't played a PF game since it launched (both times I was scheduled to, they had nearly full tables AND I eiher saw (once) or was redirected to (the other time) other games that needed bodies to avoid being cancelled at conventions and, since these weren't ticketed/pay per game things, I played there instead), but LOVE the flavor of most of these (not thrilled with the Kinetecist, but that's more just a personal thing - the class looks great just not my cup of tea) and core concepts behind them.

What if Phantoms where point blank given the "undead" type instead of outsider ?

This is something I wondered about at first but then realized it gives the player OPTIONS:

Your phantom may be a "failed Astral Traveler" or a person who got trapped in the Aether, not dead but no longer truly alive and no longer corporeal.
Or it might be a Gestalt - a composite being created and strengthened whenever people fitting a certain psychological profile perish (hence the "generic" names instead of individual ones).
Or it might be a "shadow self" ripped off of a living, dead, or undead being - the result of a curse perhaps, or maybe the loss of the Phantom causes a spirit to come back as an undead thing.
Heck, it could even be that the spirit of someone animated as a mindless undead becomes a Phantom.
Heck, it could be that the character has multiple personalities, only BELIEVING his "other selves" to be Phantoms (and having the psychic power to force them to exist outside of his mind, instead of letting them take over)

Make them all just "Undead" and your medium is just a "weirder necromancer" - leave it as an Outsider and you've got a host of other options...

I keep seeing comparisons to Psionics and flavor-wise I don't see it. For a while I was on the fence on buying Ultimate Psionics because the seemed more like comic book espers than the Dr Orpheous I was looking for. The psychics just seem more mechanically mystical Ole-timey pulp magicians and soothsayer than users of mind-magic. I just really don't understand the Psychic-Psionic connection.

People just tend to associate "psychic" with "psionic" (at least one other game uses the terms interchangably, and I recall a fore-runner to the Palladium RPG calling the relevant class "Espers" and mentioning they have psychic and psionic abilities or something like that; probably not the exact wording since it's been over 30 years since I owned that book)

Wonder what kind of Focus you could get from armor as one of your items...?

Does freedom of movement prevent feather fall from working?

I've played with one DM (back before 3e) who insisted it was so. Exactly one. We had some names for GMs like that back in the day, most of which can't be printed in a family-friendly area...

Doesn't need to be a "light show" per-se - could be just that the Mesmerist's eyes go white and his or her hair stands on end, or any other campy, low-budget movie effects you could imagine. :)

As a Voudoun, he's probably a Medium or maybe a Spiritualist, with a focus on skills and powers that manipulate others (he's more "crime boss" than "spell caster" but capable of either in a pinch), with his spirits called "Loa", probably starting with The Rakshasa as an evil, manipulative spirit, or maybe The Liar. next would probably be The Beating.

I think it's obvious that the caster is doing SOMETHING. It may not be clear that they're actually casting a spell, since it has none of the rigamarole of a typical spell-lobbing, but it's clear they're focusing their minds on some effect; a paranoid foe can easily assume it's magic or something just as dire and react accordingly.

Makes me wish I had a chance to actually play some of these (maybe can get into the local PFS game on Sunday but would bet against it - from past effort, on the odd chance I have the time, either the table(s) are full, or they don't have room for a first level character and I would be starting from scratch...).

Wait, doesn't this mean your blasts should bypass spell resistance?

Probably - but let's not reopen that kettle of worms and just say "not really"... :D

Oh, wait, actually it explicitly DOES for some (Aether Kinetecist,
Air - Air (but not Air - Lightning), Earth, and Water - Water (but not Water - Ice)). So three (Fire, Air - Lightning and Water - Ice) are subject to Spell Resistance, the rest are not...

Preach it ChrisLKimball. These classes, aside from some clarity and ... oddity ... issues are the first things to really get me excited about Pathfinder - BUT I'm one who tends (either by intent or simple chance) to play underpowered characters 9 times out of 10 in ANY system, so the fact that most of them seem underpowered is kind of a bonus for me...

I really wanted to be able to throw things from different directions around the room. The current description of telekinetic blast states an unattended object "nearby". I felt this meant within 5' but that was only my interpretation.

Thus, I feel there should be an aether wild talent that allows a telekineticist to use an...

If they do this and it's a Talent, not a Feature, I'd suggest calling it Poltergeist. Love the idea.

Divination: Yarrow stalks (one of the oldest divination tools, form the i-Ching)
Aburation or Conjuration: Quill (used for writing contracts, of course!)
Transformation: Empty cocoon or insect husk
Illusion: Smoking pipe

Play a spiritualist named Anakin and his phantom, Menace.

OK, that one's worth at LEAST a Dark Side Point...

Remotely closer to the topic, I think a Jedi would be more likely to arise from either the Aether Kineticist or the Occultist I think, probably built with the Arcane Knight PrC in mind... Jedi abilities seem more Wu Xia inspired rather than Psionic in nature.

Perhaps a Trick-like thing making the next attack against a target of the Hypnotic Stare (regardless of the source) a Sneak Attack (based on the Mesmerist's Level for extra damage)?

Perhaps the target (if it survives) then becomes immune to the Hypnotic Stare for the remainder of the encounter?

In other words, the Mesmerist doesn't get to be the "combat monster" but he enables others to fill that role while impeding the enemy...

Ranged Legerdmain is an Arcane Trickster ability that allows a character to perform sleight of hand and disable device checks at 30ft with a 5lbs limit... I, in fact, am all for keeping the Tricks and having the mesmerist have it's party buffing aspects as well. I actually want the class to be fully focused on enemy enchantment (including easier access to the Threnodic spell feat) but also auto-hypnosis and ally hypnosis. I said nothing about hexes. I do think that the sneak attack is kinda a needed feature. but that's just me.

EDIT: With the Tricks getting duration buffs as well.

I think it merits an Archetype that grants Sneak Attack, or access to that as a Feat but it shouldn't be an ability for all Mesmerists - just doesn't fit the feel of the class as written.

I still disagree with the assertion that you can only have a single resonant power from any given implement group (until you pick that school a second time)... the part that says "AN implement" is under the spellcasting section... as in you choose a single focus for your spells of that type each day. However, it says nothing about having to use only one implement for that type per day. In fact, Jason made a post that suggests that you can have multiple resonant powers (though he wasn't completely clear that they don't need to be of different schools): Jason's post

So I'm still working under the assumption that at 1st level, you can pick two or more implements from one of your schools and get a resonant power from each one, as long as you've invested some of your mental focus into that implement for the day. I do think a clarification of this would be helpful though.

If this is NOT the intent, it needs to be worded more clearly because that was how I read it as well.

Oh, Zeal looks like a great choice for a bounty hunter-type character. Beyond that, it doesn't seem to offer much but is kind of cool.

CEBrown wrote:

RJGrady wrote:

I'm not a big fan of that old saw. Many "psychic healers" simply yank tumors and foul humours right out of the body.

But those "tumors" and "foul humors" are usually chicken parts "yanked out" via slight of hand... :D

I kind of thought that went without saying. Am I missing the joke?

Nah, you just set it up didn't miss it... :D

Jealousy seems to fit your proposed background best (the lover/wife just refused to move on for fear he'd find someone else - can't have THAT now!) - though any of them could fit - she might be a craven coward, or angry at being dead (either generalized Anger of specific hatred of her killer, known or unknown), or a zealot of some flavor.

First, you only get two Focus Powers, not three (one at first level, one at second level). You get three Implements, but your number of Implements known and your number of Focus Powers known are tracked separately.

* SNIP *

Finally, I don't know if you forgot to choose them, or just forgot to include them, but you haven't listed your Illusion spells known.

I don't think this one was a mistake (or the poster you're quoting made the same mistake I did in reading the class) - it sounds like he took three Schools then chose implements from only two of them to get two Focus Powers from one, one from a second and none from the third.

While replying to another thread a thought hit me (maybe this is already the goal?)
We have 3 Deadly Sins Wrath (Anger), Envy (Jealousy) and Hatred
We have two reversed Cardinal Virtues - Fear, the opposite of one Courage and Zeal which seems the opposite of Prudence...

Why not add in the other four Deadly Sins and the four (or five if you add Piety) virtues to the mix?

I can see a Sloth spirit being more resistant to control, and maybe having some lethargy-inducing powers (sleep and/or slow effects).

Gluttony could be fun - the spirit forces targets to consume things - perhaps it halves beneficial effects on targets at lower levels and imposes hunger like the old Chime of Hunger cursed item at the highest level.

Pride could grant all sorts of defensive buffs to resisting damage or negative status effects, and maybe impose foolish bravado to enemies.

Greed would probably have a lot of similarities to both Jealousy and Gluttony, just like Hate and Anger seem to overlap but do have distinct traits. Not quite sure how to work this one out.

For the Virtues, either reverse them or actually add two positive ones.

Justice would have the ability to cut through lies and deception and resist illusions.

Temperance would be similar to Pride but protect more against status effects and stat drains, and possibly allowing it to shunt multiple mind-affecting effects (or to "steal" them from allies even), and if it affected the enemy at all, would make them hesitant to act, giving them an access of self control

Depends on what you want the character to do.

1. Anger looks like a double-edged sword, as Anger tends to be. At low levels probably the weakest, at high levels near the top of the power scale so ... mediocre all around.

2. Fear just looks FUN. Not very powerful, given its limitations, but FUN.

3. Hatred is probably the strongest at high levels, and scales the most but it also (for me) is just not very interesting, and not all that different from Anger thematically.

4. Jealousy is an odd one. Not sure how useful the Deceitful bonus feat is, but the powers of this one are so strange it would probably be a lot of fun to play, and would likely be my second choice for an NPC spiritualist (Fear would be first)).

5. Zeal is not very useful in and of itself, but it's a GREAT support-type, especailly for bounty hunters or the like. If that was the kind of character I wanted to run, this would be my first choice as a PC (otherwise I'd probably go with Fear there as well just because it looks like fun).

So it all depends on what you want overall.

CEBrown wrote:

Possibly this could be a bonus granted around level 3 or 4?

Given that Mesmerists are useless at level 1, I see no reason to make them wait to be a playable class.

As written, they might as well have the following class feature:

Quote:

Dead: You begin play with the 'dead' status. You can take no actions. At level 3, you are automatically raised as per the raise dead spell.

Honestly how many classes is this NOT true of though...

I guess the bottom line is they DO need something to appear more "useful" to the majority of players at the lowest levels?

I'm not a big fan of that old saw. Many "psychic healers" simply yank tumors and foul humours right out of the body.

But those "tumors" and "foul humors" are usually chicken parts "yanked out" via slight of hand... :D

Just noticed the text references a "Table 9: Manifested Phantom's Base Stats" - Table 9 is the spells known per level; the Manifested stats table is 10 (on page 58)

If the intent is a post-hypnotic suggestion type deal, the only logical way for them to thematically impose penalties to enemies would be with an addition to the Hypnotic Stare ability - perhaps they can forgo the imposed penalty to "grant" a "negative" or reversed Trick instead?

Possibly this could be a bonus granted around level 3 or 4?

Great, Cydeth. I'm glad you like it. It was a lot of fun to design.

The phantom does not have weapon proficiencies.

One of the foci we are looking at adding is called "devotion." I think that might be the one you want.

Sounds more "Obsession" than "Devotion" to me...

Love the Shared Consciousness ability but it reads like it was written by a lawyer trying to impress a Partner, not by something for Gamers to use on a regular basis.

Suggest more like:
Starting at first level, at any time the Phantom is neither manifested nor stranded in the Ethereal plane (i.e. it is confined to the Spiritualist's consciousness), the spiritualist gains the Skill Focus feat on two skills (determined by the Phantom's emotional focus) and a +2 bonus on all saving throws against any mind-effecting effects. Furthermore, once per day, if the spirtualist fails a saving throw against a mind-effecting effect, (s)he may, as an immediate action, shunt the effect off onto the phantom. The spiritualist avoids the effects of the mind-affecting effect but loses all other benefits gained from the phantom and is unable to manifest the phantom until the normal duration of the mind-affecting effect expires.

Also - what happens with MAEs that don't have a set duration - some charm and domination type effects only permit conditional chances to break free; does the spiritualist just become utterly gimped until something triggers a save, or should they have a set duration imposed?

You know, with the mention of adding healing spells... in fiction, at least, a lot of "psychic healers" use empathic methods - in other words, they take the ailment/damage upon themselves (and heal faster, possibly via some kind of trance/meditative effect).
Perhaps this class could benefit from stuff like that - healing spells that transfer the damage (or poison or disease or other negative condition) from another target to the Psychic, and other spells that aid the Psychic in recovering from such afflictions (so you'd need two spells to do the same thing a Divine Caster can do with one - but YOU do it with a bit more style - and personal pain.)

CEBrown wrote:

Hmm - how would this affect the class: allow the Mesmerist to implant all known tricks, but only one (until he's higher level, then two, or three, or whatever) can be TRIGGERED per day, so the other implanted Tricks are "lost" the moment one goes off...

I think that would be a bookkeeping nightmare. At that point, you might as well simply handwave the implantation aspect and make it a use-at-will ability (and simply assume that you were mesmerizing everyone in the party down to the wizard's familiar while they were handwaving the eating of breakfast, shaving, studying spellbooks, and sharpening swords).

That still doesn't solve the minutes-per-level problem, either. So we'll need to stop every minute to let the mesmerist rehypnotize everyone.

Oh, good points - completely missed the minutes-per-level thing. it does seem to cripple the class a bit.

Hmm - how would this affect the class: allow the Mesmerist to implant all known tricks, but only one (until he's higher level, then two, or three, or whatever) can be TRIGGERED per day, so the other implanted Tricks are "lost" the moment one goes off...

Now the "tricks" are, essentially magical post-hypnotic suggestions, right?
The Mesmerist implants an idea in the head of his target, triggered by set events?
(so there could be a "Cluck like a Chicken" Trick if the mesmerist wanted to be a complete jerk to their buddies... :D)

I'd suggest the limit they can place on people be subject to available time, not to their level (i.e. can only implant one Trick per subject per day but can implant that same trick on every subject they have enough time for, perhaps one full minute per subject; when they get the ability to implant more Tricks they can change from one to another as they move between potential subjects).

I think the Trick becomes active whenever the set trigger condition is met, right? It shouldn't be tied to the Mesmerist at all (except duration and "raw power" if those are tied to level) - once he implants it, whenever the condition is correct, the Trick can "go off."

Would it be unbalancing to have the first triggering be automatic - but if later trigger events happen before either the Mesmerist or the Subject sleeps (or the subject gets knocked out - or has a different trick implanted), there's a (steadily decreasing) chance the Trick "fires off" again - say a DC of 15+ 2x(number of times activated since being implanted) or some such to have it work again?

I'm not 100% sure (so maybe it needs rewording?) but I think that means that they normally only get the one Blast and one Defense WT that they chose at first level and can never take a different one.

Perhaps each Element will have multiple types of Blasts and Defense in the final document - that would "justify" this text IMO (assuming I'm understanding it correctly, that is!).

The Kinetecist is also the most "traditional comic-book" feel of all the classes to me (and thus the one I like the least in the context of this offering) - I haven't quite finished reading the Spiritualist but I think it, the Medium (though there seems a lot of thematic overlap between these two) and Psychic are my favorites and the ones I'd be most likely to play (though the Occultist has some definite appeal as well; heck I played a character whose abilities worked very much like that in a superhero game once).

CEBrown wrote:

I think the term "overwhelming" may fit much better than "overly complex"...

Again, how is it any more overwhelming then the druid or wizard is if you didnt already know how those things work?

I've been playing wizard-types on and off since 1981, so have a basic understanding there. The only Pathfinder character I've actually played was really a hybrid 3.5/Rokugan/PF character (the GM borrowed from all three for Feats and such) Barbarian/Archer type.

I've never really wrapped my head around the Druid in ANY version of the game... :D

Though I also was just talking in general - no one element of this playtest is overwhelming, but taking it all in at once that does look very daunting, very much so.

I think the term "overwhelming" may fit much better than "overly complex"...

Also, I don't think Charles Xavier could mind control Doctor Strange;

Xavier doesn't seem to use much "mind control" anyway - but he can attack a magic-user or psionic on the Astral Plane and his manifested weapons and armor usually function identically to theirs.

(or DC for that matter, as magic seems to be the only thing that can hurt Superman... he has some kind of built-in defense against telepathy/mind control granted by his kryptonian genetics...)

I suspect that goes to the "Psychic powers (including Lensman lenses (Color) Lantern power rings) are advanced scientific things - as Kryptonians are physically advanced (though only under a Yellow Sun) they can resist this - magic bypasses science and they can't"

Just a different philosophy - which is again why I think the book should default to "Psychic powers, except as explicitly noted, are subject to Spell Resistance as a default. We have some options available (present options) if you want to play it differently but that is the default..."

Maybe Wattoo does - or maybe he has some sort of "Force Resistance"... :D

Personally, since Psychic/Occult abilities are, effectively, powered by the CASTER not the Gods (i.e. Divine Magic) or some Secret/Esoteric Knowledge (i.e. Arcane Magic), I could see an opposed die mechanic used to resist their powers but that would be opening a whole different kettle of fish, adding complexity that an already complicated system really doesn't need...

Though as written, the Spiritualist is using true magic, just in a different form. The Kineticist may be using true magic or doing something very different; it could be interpreted either way. The Medium is using power from outside, but manifesting it internally via the spirit - this could be "true" magic or something else entirely - again, subject to interpretation. The Psychic IS doing something different, using their own inner strength to warp reality and might merit a different mechanic *for groups that want this level of detail/granularity*.

And I really would prefer the rules to suggest: "We prefer to keep things simple. However, if you want to add complexity to make this system different from traditional magic, here's how we'd suggest you go about it. This is an OPTION and one that we won't use in our products going forward but..."

Once again - looking at this discussion - there really need to be two or three options:

1) Default option: Occult powers are a form of magic, just with a different name - so, a few effects bypass SR but if an effect CAN be resisted, SR works for resisting it.

2) Psychics are Not Magic-Users Option: Most powers cannot be resisted except by those with strong wills or specialized training; includea Psychic/Occult Resistance stat, with a listing of the types of creatures that gain (or fail to gain) it, and how to determine it for PCs if applicable.

3) More complex hybrid options: Spells are Spells but some Psychic/Occult abilities ARE Different; are not "spells" but manifestations of some sort. Clearly list which abilities can bypass SR, everything else either gets a blanket Class notation that "These abilities typically bypass SR" or a specific notation to that effect and everything else really IS a spell, despite the different terminology.

Leave the default option for PFS materials (except maybe a rare Occult-Only scenario perhaps) and all official publications but present the other options for those groups that feel they are needed.

Hmm - there were Disciplines & Sciences for this in the old Complete Psionicist Handbook so it would not be without precedent.
Kind of a "reverse Medium" - instead of brigning in spirits, they keep their own spirit but reshape themselves?

Then again, we've only seen a fraction of the rules at this point - there may BE spirits for Mediums that do this, additional rules for some Kineticist builds heading in this direction, etc.

Though I suspect starting with something like the Monk as a foundation and tweaking it a bit would fit quite well...

Wow - the complexity is part of what appeals to me. This is treading very different ground from traditional FRPGs yet staying in the same general ballpark at the same time. That is going to be a bit of a mess at times.

Now there may very well be an overload thing going on here (heck, I haven not been able to read and understand more than one class a day), and some of the language seems a bit convoluted at times (plus my lack of experience with the actual rules - having briefly skimmed the second playtest document for the initial core book, realized it was up to version four by the time I'd finished reading version 2 - and two OTHER games I was also interested in at the time were at roughly the same point of the playtest cycle - led to me pretty much abandoning the system ... until this release).

My confusion comes from one section saying "can implant a number of tricks equal to half level per day" then an ability that says "can implant two (or more at higher levels) tricks per day."

I suspect this means "per subject" now - so if you're sixth level, you can implant up to three+Cha modifier "Tricks" per day but only one (well, OK,you get Manifold Tricks at either 5 or 6 so actually two) Trick(s) per subject?

Or is this saying that you can only have one (or two or whatever your Manifold value is) on a subject but you can plant more once those are gone? But... don't you have to implant all Tricks at the start of the day or did I misread that section?

As an aside - I've only read the first three classes. Though I conceptually love the Medium, this is really the only one of them I'd really want to PLAY (as a player... as DM/GM, I think I'd prefer to toss Kinetecists around, and have a really good player or two running Mediums)

No. You can only place one trick on a person at a time until level 5, at which point you can place two, and then again at the indicated levels.

Source: He can have only one trick active at a given time, and setting up a new trick ends the previous one (and he still loses the use he spent on the previous trick)

You may place a trick on someone a number of times equal to 1/2 level + Char mod per day.

Source: He can implant a number of these tricks per day equal to 1/2 his mesmerist level (minimum 1) plus his Charisma modifier.

So, if you have a charisma of 12, you can place one trick on someone twice per day, but only one at a time. At level five you could plant a trick on one person twice in the adventuring day, OR on two different persons at the same time.

Source: At 5th level, the mesmerist can have two tricks implanted at a time. The number of concurrent tricks increases by one for every 4 mesmerist levels he
possesses beyond 5th. Each creature can still be the subject of only one trick at a time.

Specific trumps general in Pathfinder, so the general rules for tricks are established at level one and then you gain specific exceptions to those rules as you level up.

Ah that makes sense but the wording in the playtest description still seems unclear to me.

What is the value gained from implementing a separate Psychic Resistance?

That would vary from table to table (which is why it should be an option with the default being it's the same as Spell Resistance) IMO.

It can give the Occult Powers the feel of something alien and distinct from magic - or it can be an added rule that bogs down play, depending on the group, type of adventure, etc.

One question on Tricks - the section describing them says "He can implant a number of these tricks per day equal to 1/2 his mesmerist level (minimum 1) plus his Charisma modifier. He can have only one trick active at a given time, and setting up a new trick ends the previous one (and he still loses the use he spent on the previous trick)."

But at level 5 (and later) he gets "Manifold Tricks (Su): At 5th level, the mesmerist can have two tricks implanted at a time. The number of concurrent tricks increases by one for every 4 mesmerist levels he
possesses beyond 5th. Each creature can still be the subject of only one trick at a time."

I would GUESS the intent here is "you may have (Level/2) tricks Implanted, but you may have only have the effects of one trick active at a time until level 5, then may have two active, with more at higher levels" but the language is confusing as written (especially if my interpretation is incorrect).

I'd like to see an Occult Investigator built as a Rogue/Medium hybrid, a skill-based character with "Spirit Guides" he can call upon to augment his abilities.

He was just the one I've seen most recently. There is also a series by, IIRC, Courtway Jones (might be spelling that wrong) that used a similar concept set in Arthurian England (Merlin was a major "Wild Talent" and Arthur a minor one - the main thing his talent allowed, beyond limited telepathy was ... drawing the sword from the stone)...

And there are others, Jordan was just the one I could recall most clearly without research...