General Discussion: Psychic


Rules Discussion

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Psyren wrote:
Does noticing this require line of sight to the target? If I cast a psychic spell around a corner, in shadow or behind a door, will enemies who can't see me know what happened?

Most likely not. There's enough of an indication that the caster still provokes, and that those nearby and observing them know a spell was cast, but not much beyond that.

Psyren wrote:
Also, regardless of the answer to the above question - is there a way to cast my psychic spells secretly while being observed? Regular casters can do this with still and silent spell.

We're going to have metamagic feats akin to Silent and Still spell for thought and emotion components. So yes, once those are in the mix.

Psyren wrote:
Something else to bring up with them - will psychics need a free hand to deliver a touch spell this way? It usually doesn't come up with regular casters since they typically need a free hand just to cast it anyway, but for Psychic gishes who are dual-wielding or using a shield it could matter.

Yes, they'll need a free hand.

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RJGrady wrote:
Robert Carter 58 wrote:


Going back to ye old D&D Clerics and Wizards are/were differentiated by their spells. You can do the same here with the Psychic. But you have to create the spells for it, not having the psychic summon Black Tentacles? That's a wizard thing.

That's totally a psychic thing.

AAAAKIIIIIRAAAA!!!!!!!

Yeah, that's pretty much why it's on the spell list.


Logan Bonner wrote:
Psyren wrote:
Does noticing this require line of sight to the target? If I cast a psychic spell around a corner, in shadow or behind a door, will enemies who can't see me know what happened?

Most likely not. There's enough of an indication that the caster still provokes, and that those nearby and observing them know a spell was cast, but not much beyond that.

Psyren wrote:
Also, regardless of the answer to the above question - is there a way to cast my psychic spells secretly while being observed? Regular casters can do this with still and silent spell.

We're going to have metamagic feats akin to Silent and Still spell for thought and emotion components. So yes, once those are in the mix.

Psyren wrote:
Something else to bring up with them - will psychics need a free hand to deliver a touch spell this way? It usually doesn't come up with regular casters since they typically need a free hand just to cast it anyway, but for Psychic gishes who are dual-wielding or using a shield it could matter.
Yes, they'll need a free hand.

Whoah. Is there any thematic reason why they need a free hand? I know you guys want to balance it against the other kinds of magic, but I honestly think that is kind of dumb when there are no somatic components.

I would say something is weighing them down but then armor would be a problem too. My verisimilitude, Logan! These magical abilities don't follow how the world works!

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Skaldi the Tallest wrote:
Was the intent for Dark Half to be 1/2 level + modifier or 3+modifier or Modifier +2/level or some such? As it is, it's almost non-existant. A level 20 Psychic would probably have 3 or 4 rounds in a day, which seems a bit sparse. A level 1 has 2, maybe three if they're lucky.

It will end up being usable for more rounds per day in the final version, probably with some adjustments to the other effects.

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Excaliburproxy wrote:
Whoah. Is there any thematic reason why they need a free hand?

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but you need a free hand because you need to reach it out to touch the target.


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Logan Bonner wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Whoah. Is there any thematic reason why they need a free hand?
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but you need a free hand because you need to reach it out to touch the target.

Wait wait. I am sorry. My reading comprehension has been really poor lately. I thought you meant they needed a free hand in general. Though I will perhaps note that it is odd that you can't "touch" someone with a weapon in hand (like with your knuckles) when spells like teleport have a range of touch and can target more creatures than you have hands (which I read as them touching you).

With spells that have somatic components, I can buy that you still need a free hand because magic rules, maybe? I dunno. It was not originally what I was complaining about. My original point was kinda dumb.

Silver Crusade

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Excaliburproxy wrote:
Logan Bonner wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Whoah. Is there any thematic reason why they need a free hand?
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but you need a free hand because you need to reach it out to touch the target.

Wait wait. I am sorry. My reading comprehension has been really poor lately. I thought you meant they needed a free hand in general. Though I will perhaps note that it is odd that you can't "touch" someone with a weapon in hand (like with your knuckles) when spells like teleport have a range of touch and can target more creatures than you have hands (which I read as them touching you).

With spells that have somatic components, I can buy that you still need a free hand because magic rules, maybe? I dunno. It was not originally what I was complaining about. My original point was kinda dumb.

The thematic reason? Spellcasters are some theatrical bastards, they gotta point at the person they're about to wipe from existence, want them to know who is causing their doom XP


Logan,

On the "will get more spells" and "feels like sorcerer" side of things - by analogy...

As I see it we are effectively looking at a "cleric" who has 3 or 4 domains to try, and access to appropriate clericy spells on the arcane list, with the new stuff in playtest being the Cure spells. When the full book comes out we get to see a whole bunch of new flavor due to spell choices- like getting all the cleric spells a full suite of domains.

From what I am seeing that is about where we stand and why the test version of the class feels a bit "samey"

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I've undertaken a detailed review of the class. Hopefully the designers and other posters find this useful.

Class Skills: The list seems like it represents the class well. Given the WIS/CHA split for the psychic disciplines, I would suggest adding Diplomacy or Bluff to the class skills so as to mirror the WIS-based Sense Motive that already appears on the list. It would make CHA-based disciplines a little more attractive and I suspect that a psychic would be a capable negotiator.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Looks good to me. I feel like picking up Armor Proficiency, Light is almost essential down the line, since there’s no spell failure to contend with.

Spells and Knacks: Looks like they’re largely on-flavor, if limited (for now). I’m glad to hear that the current list will be expanded and we can expect to see force and telekinetic spells in the final book. I will say that I am very pleased to see so many spells with immediate action casting times on the psychic spell list; I feel like this is very appropriate for a class that is literally casting spells at the speed of thought. I sincerely hope that there will be feats that allow psychics to conceal their spellcasting; after all, why bother casting detect thoughts during NPC negotiations if they can see you doing it…?

Psychic Discipline: Let’s go discipline by discipline, shall we?

Abomination: Probably my favorite, but not without its problems. Decent, flavorful bonus spells, but—as mentioned earlier—dark half doesn’t last nearly long enough. I would be okay with the same level/day mechanic if it were measured in minutes. Absolutely love the immunity to fear effects; I can already see lots of “I think not” moments where an otherwise shaken psychic whips out her dark half and can suddenly start casting again. Morphic form is nice, but nothing I’d write home about. I’m definitely loving psychic safeguard; it’s very refreshing to see a caster with SR.

Lore: Heh heh, “chapbooks”; digging the 19th-century flavor of this. Good bonus spells, but to echo someone else’s observation, it’s strange that Use Magic Device is the skill choice when it’s not Wisdom-based (all of the other discipline skills are tied to their respective ability scores). Illuminating answers looks like it has the potential for abuse, but that’s been mentioned before as well. The mileage a psychic gets from mnemonic cache will vary dramatically from table to table. I love the idea behind memory palace (as I’m a little familiar with the scholarship on this subject, i.e. Yates’s The Art of Memory), but mechanically, this feels weird. I’m fine with the memory palace being a pseudo-literal place (because magic!), but it’s more useful as a mage’s magnificent mansion then as a reference library for Knowledge skills. Like I said, I love the idea, but I’m not 100% sold on the mechanical benefits, especially for a 1/day class feature the psychic is receiving at 13th level.

Pain: Good spells; not crazy about seeing Intimidate again, but there are only so many skills. Painful resurgence seems like it’s at the right power level and not too easily subjected to abuse (though I may be wrong). The concept behind painful reminder seems like it might be better implemented with sharing conditions with an enemy as opposed to nonlethal damage. Maybe something where if you’re staggered you can cause an enemy to be staggered as well? Live on is good…almost too good. A free, daily, contingent breath of life is…well, it’s very good. Agonizing wound is just…too, too powerful. We’ve already seen how players have come to abuse Dazing Spell. I don’t advocate opening the door to that condition or stunned. (I will say: nauseated and sickened are both very on-flavor for the pain discipline and would be okay seeing those remain.)

Tranquility: Getting a definite Stoic/Zen vibe from this one. Bonus spells are fitting, though detect thoughts (a 1st-level spell for psychics) doesn’t show up until 4th level, which smells like an error to me. Time stop is very on-flavor. Digging the immediate action for mental placidity, but it feels redundant with some of the psychic spells. Calming presence is…okay, but I would be disappointed by gaining this; that is, unless, this can be used to lock out enemy spells with emotion components…? The immunity to fear from purge disquiet feels appropriately powerful for a 13th-level class feature and is super on-flavor for the discipline. I don’t feel like the ability to help out buddies is a strong enough finisher for this discipline, however.

Phrenic Pool/Amplifications: Most of these are great. I’d love to see more amplifications akin to will of the dead and the mesmerist’s psychic inception; with so much emphasis on mind-affecting spells, the ability to punch through some defenses would be a very meaningful and flavorful addition. Moreover, I envision a psychic as being particularly more capable of overcoming those kinds of immunities, especially when compared to other specialists, like enchanter wizards, fey bloodline sorcerers, charm domain clerics, et al. I’d also like to see some integration between metamagic and the phrenic pool, but that’s something I mentioned before. I wonder if there are any plans for amplifications that would allow psychics to conceal their spellcasting?

Remade Self: I want to like this, I really do. Heroism and haste would both be great if the psychic were more martially-inclined and fly, while flavorful, doesn’t need to be constant when teleport exists. Very few games reach 20th level and players should be rewarded with outrageous abilities for reaching this level. The rogue, arguably one of the game’s weakest classes, receives a death attack at this level, so surely the psychic should receive something equally dramatic? I would suggest that the designers fold remade self into the disciplines. Capstone abilities that are keyed to the disciplines will create more diverse epic-level psychics (if any exist) and make the choice of discipline more meaningful in character creation (if, like me, you plan for the long haul).

Final Reflections: Some have said that the psychic feels like a sorcerer reskinned and with a different spell list. I can see where that sentiment is coming from, but the disciplines and phrenic amplifications are incredibly germane for taking the psychic into a distinct and exciting direction.

I hope that my exhaustive review has been helpful!


Not sure if this thought should be in a new thread.

I was thinking that a Psychic should have a list of spell fields different from a Sorcerer. Not necessarily changing the spells, but changing the arrangement.

Have a list of spell types like:

Telekinetic: Spells of motion
Teleperceptive: Spells of information
Teleprojective: Spells of influence and illusion
Teleportative: Spells to summon and send
Vitakinetic: Spells that heal, harm, or alter living creatures

Possibly things like spectral kinesis (light and shadows), thermokinesis (heat and cold) and Electrokinesis might be in the telekinetic list, or they might be left for the specialist Kinetisist.


I thought I'd take a moment to give my specific thoughts on the psychic-only spells in the playtest.

Mind Thrust: Unfortunately made necessary, if only because it's the only way to deal hit point damage at most spell levels. Otherwise, it's just second class damage for most of its lifespan. Not multi-targeting, it's mind-affecting- pretty weak stuff for damage dealing when benchmarked against what sorcerers get at similar spell levels.

Ego Whip: At 6th level, would I take Ego Whip I, or would I take Haste or Slow? No question in my mind that Ego Whip is not a compelling offering at levels where it becomes available. Benchmarked against a comparable sorcerer, would I rather have Ego Whip to stagger a single enemy for a single round, or Stinking Cloud to nauseate multiple enemies simultaneously for rnd/lvl? Or use Dazing Spell metamagic with a fireball at higher levels? The choice is, again, unfortunately clear. My suggestion: Make it a swift action spell.

Id Insinuate: Would I rather take Id Insinuate, or Confusion at 8th? Clearly, a spell that affects an indeterminate amount of enemies in a radius for rnd/lvl is superior to a concentration only effect that hits a single foe. Id Insinuate becomes a bit more compelling at higher levels, because of multi-targeting and because of favorable confusion rolls- but I'd have to think very hard about taking the spell if I had Confusion in my spells known list in order to stretch my meagre spells known resources. My suggestion: Make it a swift action spell.

Psychic Crush: Here's something worthwhile to take. A real save-or-die spell. I really like this beast at higher levels- and frankly, it replaces Mind Thrust at those levels. Finally, here is something where I can't point at the sor/wiz list and go "why would I ever want to take this, given the alternatives?"

Thought Shield: I like the immediate action to use, but the difficulty is the extreme situational nature of the spell. Within its narrow niche, effective. I would perhaps take this as a late-level pick for its spell level, otherwise I'd give it a pass.

Mental Barrier: These are great spells. Immediate action to cast, very high bonuses to AC. What's not to love here? Here's another spell I'd take over some comparable offerings at their levels.

Intellect Fortress: Another suite of spells that are difficult to recommend. Very situational and specialized: an area-affect thought shield. Deals only with mind-affecting effects. The Immediate action to use is its major saving grace. As with thought shield, I would perhaps save it only for a late-level pick at its spell level.

Tower of Iron Will: As with intellect fortress and thought shield, these are very situational and difficult to recommend without a heavily psychic campaign. Immediate action to use is good. Perhaps a late-level pick- but by the time you get access to these, you are already at late levels. So probably would get a pass from me entirely.

Where is Psychic Blast, by the way, if we're adhering to the 10 classic modes? Mind Blank is in the list.

Conclusions:

I think that these spells, in general, suffer from a spell-list comparables problem wherein the spell does not match favorably with other spells available at that level. I'd keep current with Mind Thrust, but only because I am pretty much forced to- where else is my damage dealing capability? And I'd keep current with Psychic Crush, because that's a bone fide nasty spell. Mental Barrier is also strong, but I'd probably give the rest of these spells a miss due to weaksauce problems.

That brings me to a crucial point- how exactly is the psychic supposed to deal damage? The psychic cannot deal area damage at all, and only weak single-target damage. I don't know of too many other classes in the entire game so entirely dependent on the presence of party members who can actually kill monsters. Obviously Pathfinder is a team game, but must I point out the incongruity of a 20th level psychic that sadly got locked in a room by himself and eaten by that mindless dung beetle?

Dark Archive

Friendlyfish wrote:
That brings me to a crucial point- how exactly is the psychic supposed to deal damage? The psychic cannot deal area damage at all, and only weak single-target damage. I don't know of too many other classes in the entire game so entirely dependent on the presence of party members who can actually kill monsters. Obviously Pathfinder is a team game, but must I point out the incongruity of a 20th level psychic that sadly got locked in a room by himself and eaten by that mindless dung beetle?

They are getting some form of summoning in the next playtest doc, and possibly blasting as well :)

(Personally I would rather the latter - blasting - than the former, because the Witch already serves as our "primary mental caster with some summoning for backup." And also, psychic magic is supposed to be really self-sufficient, and summoning undermines that concept.)

Lantern Lodge

Just finished participating “The Confirmation” where we were testing out a few of the classes for Occult Adventures. The party consisted of Human Psychic (my character), Human Pyro-Kinetiscist, Human Warpriest , Half-Elf Hunter, and Nagaji Mesmerist
For most of the party, this was the first time they have played in this scenario. Here is what I observed.
For the most part, I was unsuccessful in utilizing any class abilities of the Psychic. Making detect thoughts a 1st level spell for the psychic made it a little harder to use effectively. You learn the spell earlier, but it also lowers the DC of the spell by 1. I had focused my class on spell casting and I was completely unsuccessful in casting any spell successfully. Opponents either overcame the Will save or they were simply immune to the effect of the spell.
I chose the Lore discipline because my character was a sort of “psychic detective” utilizing the Amateur Investigator feat from Advanced Class Guide. This was a good choice with my high intelligence score, since Knowledge and Linguistics checks where very limited due to my lack of skill ranks given by the class and the extra boost of inspiration allowed me to push the check just enough to decipher the ancient texts.
The Mnemonic Cache was less useful than anticipated. Much to my chagrin, the rest of the party didn’t find it the least bit interesting that I could disarm exploding ruins with my mind. If I could disarm all traps with my mind, I’m sure it would be much more impressive. As it stands, the ability acts more like a vanity than a utility.
Illuminating Answers should not be given until 3rd level when you are able to cast augury and have a phrenic pool to replenish.
The one time my character was able to shine was when it was time to role play, which had nothing to do with the class. For most battles, I was sitting on the sidelines and trying in vain to cast spells.
I think the psychic has the potential to be a leader role character if he wasn’t just a rehashed sorcerer.
What does the psychic really need?
1. Telepathy! Regardless if she can read minds (poorly), if she can’t speak to someone without words, she is not a psychic. First level, that should be a given. Even if it is limited to a range of 30 ft, and it increases as she levels. She should be able to communicate with a creature that she shares a language with or perhaps if he forms a psychic bond with them? Maybe he has a psychic aura or something that gives him some kind of bonus to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
2. Teamwork abilities. If the psychic did possess the aforementioned “psychic aura” she should be able to grant buffs to her teammates within that field or share her teamwork feats she possesses like a Cavalier. It would fill a hole that is missing in spell casters. Maybe I’m wrong, are there any primary spell casting classes that receive and share teamwork feats?
There has to be something with the class that makes him feel like a psychic.
Standing next to a Kinetiscist that cleared the field with unlimited fire damage and a mesmerist that continually buffed him to accomplish the kinetiscist ends, the Psychic served no purpose other than to decipher the runes in the cave and this was accomplished only with the assistance of the Amateur Investigator feat. If I were to remake this character, he would be a straight Investigator.

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Hey, everybody! I read through what's here already, but wanted to let folks know that I'll be out of the office for the rest of the week. I'll check back in on Monday (or later today if I have time).

Silver Crusade

I've only really begun to take a closer look at this class (like others on the forums, I've been caught up with the kineticist). I see a lot of people comparing this to a sorcerer, but that's not what I see when I look at this class. I see more of the arcanist in this class than anything else, which in my mind is a good thing. The arcanist did a lot to get me interested in the primary spellcasting classes again. The phrenic amplifications seem an awful lot like arcane exploits and hopefully future additions will continue in that regard. I love the disciplines, particularly Abomination and its Dark Half ability (though I think some of the others need a little more love, because as is, Pain will probably be the go-to discipline for many). And the addition of the old attack and defense modes as psychic spells made me smile more than a little. The looks I'll get from some of my older players faces when I get to utter the phrase 'I'm casting ego whip on you' will be priceless, I think. I actually like the undercasting element that psychic magic brings. I've always felt that spellcasters shouldn't be locked into having their spells 'always wide open' when they're cast and knowing that psychic magic users have that baked in from the onset (even if it's with certain spells) allows me to like this type of magic even more.


The reason I do not think of it as an Arcanist is because of how the spells are gained, though there are some similarities.


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One thing I noticed, Discipline of Tranquility seems to grant detect thoughts as a 2nd level spell, when psychics usually get it as a 1st level spell?


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You know, with the mention of adding healing spells... in fiction, at least, a lot of "psychic healers" use empathic methods - in other words, they take the ailment/damage upon themselves (and heal faster, possibly via some kind of trance/meditative effect).
Perhaps this class could benefit from stuff like that - healing spells that transfer the damage (or poison or disease or other negative condition) from another target to the Psychic, and other spells that aid the Psychic in recovering from such afflictions (so you'd need two spells to do the same thing a Divine Caster can do with one - but YOU do it with a bit more style - and personal pain.)


I'm not a big fan of that old saw. Many "psychic healers" simply yank tumors and foul humours right out of the body.


RJGrady wrote:
I'm not a big fan of that old saw. Many "psychic healers" simply yank tumors and foul humours right out of the body.

But those "tumors" and "foul humors" are usually chicken parts "yanked out" via slight of hand... :D

Liberty's Edge

CEBrown wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
I'm not a big fan of that old saw. Many "psychic healers" simply yank tumors and foul humours right out of the body.
But those "tumors" and "foul humors" are usually chicken parts "yanked out" via slight of hand... :D

That's true of real-life faith healers as well. Or at least equally true. :)


CEBrown wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
I'm not a big fan of that old saw. Many "psychic healers" simply yank tumors and foul humours right out of the body.
But those "tumors" and "foul humors" are usually chicken parts "yanked out" via slight of hand... :D

I kind of thought that went without saying. Am I missing the joke?


RJGrady wrote:
CEBrown wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
I'm not a big fan of that old saw. Many "psychic healers" simply yank tumors and foul humours right out of the body.
But those "tumors" and "foul humors" are usually chicken parts "yanked out" via slight of hand... :D
I kind of thought that went without saying. Am I missing the joke?

Nah, you just set it up didn't miss it... :D

Grand Lodge

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Just a thought on the Psychic Defensive Spells (i.e. Thought Shield, Tower of Iron Will, Intellect Fortress, and Mental Barrier) instead of the duration for these just being 1 round, has there been any thought to it being changed to 1 round + concentration?

I think this might make these spells more flavorful and more likely to be taken.

Nathan Meyers
NYC PFS GM/Player


It makes sense that those spells would have an extended duration based on how long you concentrate on it.


Also I would like to add the restoration spells( lesser, standard, greater) and maybe regeneration to there spell list.

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Natertot wrote:

Just a thought on the Psychic Defensive Spells (i.e. Thought Shield, Tower of Iron Will, Intellect Fortress, and Mental Barrier) instead of the duration for these just being 1 round, has there been any thought to it being changed to 1 round + concentration?

I think this might make these spells more flavorful and more likely to be taken.

Heartily seconded! This would be a nice little bump in power for those spells and would be very thematic for a class that's all based on the power of the mind. At the very least, perhaps a phrenic amplification that allows the psychic to extended the duration for those spells to 1 round + Concentration? If such a compromise is even necessary, that is.


I think making it a phrenic amplification would be a really good idea. However, that may require an additional spell keyword.

Grand Lodge

Excaliburproxy wrote:
I think making it a phrenic amplification would be a really good idea. However, that may require an additional spell keyword.

That would be a good idea, maybe 1 pt per round of extension?

Nathan


Natertot wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
I think making it a phrenic amplification would be a really good idea. However, that may require an additional spell keyword.

That would be a good idea, maybe 1 pt per round of extension?

Nathan

I maybe think that is a high cost. Perhaps you could change its duration to concentration for a number of rounds equal to your secondary cast-y stat (wisdom or charisma).


Thinking here: if the Kineticist is the specialist in kinetic powers, the Mesmerist the specialist in Projective Telepathy, the Occultist is an Psychometric energy focusing character and the Spiritualist is a limited channeler...I am not quite sure how you quantify the Medium, possibly a psychic channel to other planes. In any case, if the Psychic is supposed to be the generalist it should have some of the abilities of each of the other classes.

In any case, I was thinking one should be able to do many of the things other classes do with the psychic as spells. I can see a few of them, but think it is missing a few things.


Just a general comment - I think that the psychic's discipline should have more of an impact and be a little stronger than they are currently. I think that these features are the most identifying thing about the class.

Secondly, I think a feat to make affective mindless things LESS expensive or more effective would be pretty welcome. I imagine a lot of people who take mental spells will be crying on the inside when they cast a spell at a mindless thing, spending 3 phrenic pool points and it makes its save.

Maybe a feat that refunds you the points from that ability when all targets of your spell make their save. Or refunds 1 point when they make their save or fails do to 'miss chance' - which would encourage people to take a gamble with 50% 'miss chance'.

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Mikael Sebag wrote:
Natertot wrote:

Just a thought on the Psychic Defensive Spells (i.e. Thought Shield, Tower of Iron Will, Intellect Fortress, and Mental Barrier) instead of the duration for these just being 1 round, has there been any thought to it being changed to 1 round + concentration?

I think this might make these spells more flavorful and more likely to be taken.

Heartily seconded! This would be a nice little bump in power for those spells and would be very thematic for a class that's all based on the power of the mind. At the very least, perhaps a phrenic amplification that allows the psychic to extended the duration for those spells to 1 round + Concentration? If such a compromise is even necessary, that is.

That's a cool idea and a cool follow-up. We'll look at the baseline functionality, but I think this could at least be an amplification.


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Corneleus Idaho wrote:

I think the psychic has the potential to be a leader role character if he wasn’t just a rehashed sorcerer.

What does the psychic really need?
1. Telepathy! Regardless if she can read minds (poorly), if she can’t speak to someone without words, she is not a psychic. First level, that should be a given. Even if it is limited to a range of 30 ft, and it increases as she levels. She should be able to communicate with a creature that she shares a language with or perhaps if he forms a psychic bond with them? Maybe he has a psychic aura or something that gives him some kind of bonus to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
2. Teamwork abilities. If the psychic did possess the aforementioned “psychic aura” she should be able to grant buffs to her teammates within that field or share her teamwork feats she possesses like a Cavalier. It would fill a hole that is missing in spell casters. Maybe I’m wrong, are there any primary spell casting classes that receive and share teamwork feats?
There has to be something with the class that makes him feel like a psychic.

This. 1st level telepathic communication that evolves as you level. It even allows you to create psychic spells that are tailored to having an improved effect if you possess a mindlink of some sort with the target.

Teamwork feat sharing and more teamwork feats for caster types. Yes please and thank you!


Shane LeRose wrote:
Teamwork feat sharing and more teamwork feats for caster types. Yes please and thank you!

I would be very surprised if this wasn't already planned as an archetype; Psychic Strategist or something.

But I'd be very disappointed if it didn't happen somehow, too.

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Cthulhudrew wrote:
Shane LeRose wrote:
Teamwork feat sharing and more teamwork feats for caster types. Yes please and thank you!

I would be very surprised if this wasn't already planned as an archetype; Psychic Strategist or something.

But I'd be very disappointed if it didn't happen somehow, too.

Personally, I think I'd prefer to see this as an archetype. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great concept and I certainly hope to see some mindlink action going on in the core psychic, but hive-minding seems very narrow in focus. Maybe it could work as a discipline built on the notion of the collective unconscious?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Psychics should be able to change the target of a spell to anyone they share a mind-link with.

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A list of official changes has been added to the first post!

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Official Changes

The following are the official changes to the psychic’s abilities and spells. First off, the psychic does get iterative attacks as normal, but they’ve been omitted from the table by accident.
Class Skills: Add Diplomacy to the psychic’s class skill list.
Psychic Discipline: The saving throw for any discipline ability that allows a save is 10 + 1/2 psychic level + Intelligence modifier.
Phrenic Pool: The psychic gains this class feature at 1st level.
Phrenic Amplifications: The psychic gains her first amplification at 1st level instead of 3rd. She gains an additional amplification at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter. Adding a phrenic amplification is part of the action used to cast the spell. Change the following amplifications.
Complex Countermeasure This ability makes the spell harder to dispel, counterspell, or identify.
Conjured Armor: An 8th-level psychic uses the +2 bonus or her relevant modifier, whichever is higher.
Discipline of Abomination: In dark half, it should specify that attempting to return to normal is an ability that the psychic can used while she’s her dark half. The dark half can be used for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + the psychic’s Charisma modifier + 1/2 her psychic level.
Discipline of Pain: Change the following abilities.
Painful Resurgence: Change painful resurgence to the following: When you take damage, you can gain DR 2/— against the effect that damaged you. If you still took at least 5 points of damage after applying DR, you regain 1 point in your phrenic pool. The amount of DR increases by 1 for every 4 psychic levels you possess beyond the first. The amount of damage you must still take to regain phrenic points is equal to your character level at every level beyond 5th. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier, and can use it no more than once per hour.
Agonizing Wound: Move dazed from the initial list of conditions onto the list of conditions that can be applied if you expend 2 uses of the ability. Remove stunned from the latter list.
Discipline of Tranquility: In the bonus spells list, change detect thoughts to silence.
Remade Self: This ability should clarify that the spell is chosen when the psychic reaches 20th level and can’t be changed.

Spells
Remove permanency from the 6th-level spell list. Add lesser create demiplane to the 7th-level list, create demiplane to the 8th-level list, and greater create demiplane to the 9th-level list.

Definitely digging these changes! I'm glad to see dark half extended and the discipline of pain reeled in a bit. Is using painful resurgence an immediate action? If so, that may need to be stated explicitly to avoid confusion. I'm sure many psychics look forward to creating their own demimon—er, I mean, demiplanes.

Paizo Employee Developer

Mikael Sebag wrote:
Definitely digging these changes! I'm glad to see dark half extended and the discipline of pain reeled in a bit. Is using painful resurgence an immediate action? If so, that may need to be stated explicitly to avoid confusion. I'm sure many psychics look forward to creating their own demimon—er, I mean, demiplanes.

Yep. Just updated it!


Still no mindlink type abilities. :(


No psychic healing:(


No more permanency. :(

Paizo Employee Developer

Excaliburproxy wrote:
No more permanency. :(

Permanency is still there. It was erroneously on both the 5th- and 6th-level lists.


Logan Bonner wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
No more permanency. :(
Permanency is still there. It was erroneously on both the 5th- and 6th-level lists.

Ahhhh. I see I see. Well, that is good. Permanency is a pretty cool spell and I think it fits.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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This class looks like it's coming along quite nicely. The limited number of disciplines for the playtest document seems, to me at least, one of the only major remaining weaknesses. I realize they're no doubt more disciplines behind the curtain, but since Logan has been so attentive in this thread, I think we should share our ideas for other possible disciplines as food for thought.

NB: Just spitballing here.

Discipline of the Collective: Mindlinking, sharing spells telepathically, sharing Knowledge skill bonuses, sharing hit points or conditions

Discipline of Kinesis: A weaker version of kinetic blast that scales off Intelligence, a small pool of wild talents that consume phrenic pool points as opposed to burn

Discipline of Dreaming: Altered states of consciousness, class features that are only active while resting, enhanced clairvoyance/clairaudience

Discipline of Fear: Limited casting while under fear effects, frightful presence, rebounding harmful fear effects, regaining phrenic points from fear (beware potential for abuse)

Discipline of Mesmerism/Spiritualism/Occultism: Not very creative, but you get the gist; lots of potential for sampling other classes via disciplines

Discipline of the Sensory: Expanded senses (low-light vision, darkvision, blindsense, blindsight, scent, tremorsense), foresight, initiative and Perception bonuses, detect spells

Lantern Lodge

*joining in on the spitballing*

Drunken Discipline: Replenishes phrenic points by drinking, powers revolve around confusion and sharing penalties for intoxication with opponents (contact drunk?). Maybe some temporary strength enhancements at the cost of wisdom. Potential to link Cayden Caylene followers in with that.

Discipline of Empty Mind: Protections from mind affecting spells and abilities. Increasing concentration checks. Possibly eliminating the need to make concentration checks.


I have read through Occult adventures and while I didn't get to actually playtest these classes here is my feedback:

1) I really like how Psychic works, the phrenic pool is used for all of your spells still and "augmenting" your spells is much more standardized than Psion in 3.5.

2) As far as flavor goes I would still like the spells per day to be called psionics per day but that is just my preference.

3) I feel like Psychics get a little under powered compared to other classes in pathfinder since they are the only spellcasting class that has to split it's mental attributes. Every other class in pathfinder runs off of one attribute for it's spells AND abilities. The only exclusion being a cleric's turn undead which if you so desired you could forgo Charisma and still have an effective cleric. Psions choosing to forgo Charisma/Wisdom means practically all of your non-spell abilities are nigh useless.


Clockwork Kobold wrote:

I have read through Occult adventures and while I didn't get to actually playtest these classes here is my feedback:

1) I really like how Psychic works, the phrenic pool is used for all of your spells still and "augmenting" your spells is much more standardized than Psion in 3.5.

2) As far as flavor goes I would still like the spells per day to be called psionics per day but that is just my preference.

3) I feel like Psychics get a little under powered compared to other classes in pathfinder since they are the only spellcasting class that has to split it's mental attributes. Every other class in pathfinder runs off of one attribute for it's spells AND abilities. The only exclusion being a cleric's turn undead which if you so desired you could forgo Charisma and still have an effective cleric. Psions choosing to forgo Charisma/Wisdom means practically all of your non-spell abilities are nigh useless.

Well, the arcanist kind of has a split mental attributes (the saves and stuff on most of the exploits are charisma based) but you can build around it. You can build around not needing too much charisma or wisdom here too, but the disadvantages are a little worse.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

The split score is no longer as harsh as it once was. This was recently added to the rules update in the first post of the thread (along with many other good changes). This goes a long way to focusing almost exclusively on Intelligence with a psychic, if you like.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Psychic Discipline: The saving throw for any discipline ability that allows a save is 10 + 1/2 psychic level + Intelligence modifier.

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