Avaricious's page

A perfect setting within Golarion would be Ustalav (I rep that place frequently, great memories, traumatic perhaps, but great). Lot of undead influences, and generally gothic settings. You don't have to go all the way to Geb to find undead underfoot.

A tool I recommend is:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/tools/advanced-monster-search/

Step 1 Toggle Bestiaries and Adventure Path Filter (I like canon products)
Step 2 Filter Type as "Undead" (towards the middle)
Step 3 Generate Results filtered Alphabetically and by CR.

Peruse the monsters at the CR you believe would be memorable for y'all. There might be the perfect entry in there for a BBEG, lieutenants, mooks you could adapt to challenge your hubby and you. Do you want easy things to kill, or do you want the encounter to be heavy, even brawls.

I gotcha. A lot of these Adventure Paths have social sections... the most recent one to come to mind is Book One or Two of War for the Crown. "Social Combat" was really featured there. You could adapt that, for example, with its pre-gen NPCs for something. As opposed to scenarios per se, you could skim Adventure Paths for chapters, which are pretty modular. You want something a little more Gothic... perhaps Book 5 of Carrion Crown, when they delve into Caliphas' lower levels and encounter essentially a mirror society there amongst, well, you get it without the spoilers.

The reason I am promoting these chapters as they are technically run as self-contained segments of an ongoing campaign. Sort of a measured distance to pace a party through, some chapters taking longer than other dependent on the main activity (Combat, Exploration, Social, Investigation, but overwhelmingly varieties of Combat) within.

The big appeal is that they are populated with Maps, which saves you work, DM, and especially statted NPCs, or references to the appropriate Bestiary.

Curse of the Crimson Throne for example, has some palace-y stuff you could adapt.

How do you resolve that double standard?

You don't.

The humanoid species wearing Dragon swag doesn't view them as sentient creatures in the sense of fellow humanoids, but as magical beasts of awe, wonder, terror, and everything else in between. Even many of the Outsiders and other Types in the game still are identified as humanoids at a glance. That awe confers status to dem Dragon bits, right or wrong. Were dragonkind to start their own lingerie line, calling it something like Tiamat's Secret, with the fabric/leather being humanoid hair/skin etc, and parading it across the other deities and openly among humanoids, maybe the discussion can be had as to why inherently, this is a bad thing.

Bring it before Abadar in the Plane of Law, and the double standard collapses. On the Material Plane, Mr. Farmer/herder is going to see that Ancient Red and not recognize that its a majestic being that live through eons, collecting the wisdom and knowledge of that time in between. He's going to see something, big & scary, and probably the thing that's been taking from his fields/flocks. He's not going to rationalize with it that this is another being to reason with and coexist alongside. He sees the nearest adventurer -he's flagging them down for some good ole dragonslaying/cookout.

The point it becomes taboo is when there is that acceptance. Most items made of humanoids, and the game is overwhelmingly populated by them and told through their perspectives, are considered evil or taboo.

I've played this concept before in campaigns.

Take a Druid. How does that Druid survive hostile scenarios where endurance is a factor... trapped in demiplanes every now and then? Well... supplies are limited, enemies are not, by nature of what campaigns are. What if the enemies became the supplies?

Enemies as nourishment and equipment soured the Players' on the table, as expected, and it was played for laughs, but I had to take care when I realized that I was crossing peoples' comfort zones for the sake of dark humor. Shaking someone up in real life morally is not worth that cheap giggle... or is it?

The Player playing the Paladin alongside me declared Smite Evil during one of these scenarios. Faced with a population of starving refugees, and with almost no supplies, what was the party to do? Well, me, I always had plenty to share, and they encountered me as they failed their survival roles to forage setting up a soup kitchen... two guesses where the product came from. Pally had to be restrained by the Party. "But I'm feeding the children... won't you feed the needy?"

The argument I had was, why am I confined to Neutral Evil, when my actions and motivations on the whole have been towards greater good, towards the overarching quest, and the welfare of my party? The replies from DM and Players alongside me: its just wrong.

And you know what, I accepted that. They felt that strongly about it, its probably a natural order kind of thing. Its weird, my character felt righteous: survival of the fittest, the food chain isn't hierarchy, its ultimate struggle for existence. Nothing goes to waste, and for one, he's never seen a poop revenant come from a fallen NPC for round 2.

Its going to take a lot of managing... but have two sets of sourcebooks out.

That way you can pull freely from the Pathfinder Campaign Settings and even the Mummy's Wrath AP as you need to for locations and pre-gen NPCs/Monsters. Transplant one Adventure's set of NPCs for the other. Ileosa would still exist as that Gold-Digging Queen along with her Grey Maidens (a defining group of NPCs in that campaign), but anything else you can sub-in using pre-gren Osirion/Mummy's Wrath NPCs.

And... why settle for Osirion? Any adventure worth transplanting is much more enriched by dropping the party into scenic Ustalav, where Horror replaced Wednesday. You don't want to know what happened to Monday.

You don't need a scenario.

Just add alcohol, family, friends, and people spitefully given invitations. A cavalcade of former lovers would be the capstone.

Improved Familiar allows you to take Sprite as your familiar, unlocking at Level 5, with another Sprite at Level 8. Winter Witch the archetype specifically states that feat can allow you to take other familiars not on its list so long as they are not fire-type. It could be a Dawn Piper in a symbolic way with the Sprites' stats, and the DM could roll with it.

The downside is the Dawn Piper you describe is beyond the scope of even this feat. The Improved Familiars typically cap out at CR2; that Dawn Piper is CR5 and not on that list, or even the Witch's base familiar list.

That's the realm of a class that has access to Animal Companions (Druid, Paladins, Rangers, Hunters, etc... heck even Wildblooded Sorcerers with Sylvan Bloodlines).

I digress. My recommendation is to invest in Improved Familiar, select the Sprite, use its stats and just call it a Dawn Piper as both are FEY and not Fire Type. This should satisfy the DM that it is balanced and still meets the qualifications for a Witch's Familiar.

This isn't PFS however (essentially: whatever that DM actually feels is within their comfort zone to run), feel free to negotiate whichever boon you can with your DM. If a player approached me with a request for a CR5 Familiar through Improved Familiar as a Tax feat, I'd let it slide so long as some other Player with a Familiar in the party doesn't get left in the dust, and I don't have to make concessions to other players with existing Animal Companions to suddenly demand their T-Rex become the direct analog with its Bestiary entry and not its Animal Companion stats (as an aside: I do believe eventually the Animal Companions actually overcomes their Bestiary equivalents, with the added benefit of being able to fit indoors).

If its flavor -let it roll!

Going to start playing in a game set in Ustalav soon. I didn't see any Ustalav players splat book.

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Rule of Fear. If you're characters are going to be Ustalav natives, this would be a good source of immersion.

Is there a chance y'all are playing Carrion Crown? The Player's Guide for that Adventure Path (aren't the PGs all free?) may be another source of enlightenment. I'd even go so far as to say that Carrion Crown may be one of the best balanced APs I've played through in my journey through Pathfinder. Forget the plot, the setting sucks you in. DMed right, the party will always be vulnerable, always feel mortal even into the end.

I'd stray from regional archetypes and instead focus on the wonderful horror that is Ustalav, where every day is Halloween. The regional archetypes have much to be desired, and don't actually set you up for success against the bestiary you'll encounter.

The primary threats will be the variety of undead, ranging from wights, the precursors to the haunt mechanic, up to vampires, and liches. Of secondary concern are the lycanthropes and magical beasts, to some minority extent, constructs. And of course, the most ubiquitous threat to any aspiring group of Adventurers/MurderHobos: the xenophobic townsfolk.

This is probably the one setting where a team of pure Divine caster characters would rick-roll any campaign. Any combination of Cleric, Paladin, Inquistor, Warpriest, Oracle would devastate the countryside in accidental crusade. Heck, you may even find overly-zealous crusaders fighting you if in the province they quarantined around the Whispering Tyrant, the biggest open secret in Ustalav next to the vampire underground. Any full-tier arcane caster... its not a matter of if they adopt Necromancy, but when and which flavor they chose.

Will saves, and to a lesser extent, fortitude saves are gonna bail your party out. If y'all take advantage of Ustalav's wonderful selection of citizens to encounter, be prepared to endure, not dodge, but endure.

This is where I learned to love Pathfinder. Varisia may be the land of Adventurers. Ustalav is the nation that forges survivors.

Maybe as an aside, what would be needed for any martial class in general to allow it to reach a similar power level as casters? What are they lacking that casters arent?

"Versatility"

That's the meat of the issue. I'd try and analog the class features of martials and casters. In essence, your abilities and their magic are kinda the same. Features of a class. Case in point, consider a caster's daily spell slots; many martials have abilities that are also daily slots. Fighter is not one of them... Your Barbarian's Rage feature that you played, for example. Except, as martials, they would be combat, and typically melee, focused. Flip the switch for Ranged Martials. Its essentially the same thing. Focus towards dropping single (again, typically) targets.

Consider Inquisitor or Warpriest to dip your toes into that hybrid pool. They can go Nova on targets in specific context, but they also have a lot of flexibility besides attacking, in and out of combat.

The caster's viability is that their "dailies" can function for roles besides "Roll vs AC" and bend the fight. To change the parameter of a given encounter, heck, even the campaign, to one that is better suited for the Caster/the Party. STR as a primary attribute has only so many applications out of combat/pressure besides intimidating the story's cast of NPCs.

You must match their versatility with focus. As in, double down.

You have to match their focus on their casting stat.

As Caster needs only their casting attribute. DEX and CON are really trivial to a caster for survivability if: they can't be seen or reached. Flying and invisibility are just some of the options in their bag of shenanigans. Even then, they would have invested into those two key stats, but expect their main attribute to be boosted permanently into the twenties/thirties or higher because it directly governs their effectiveness.

You, however, need said CON to survive in the line, and DEX to mitigate some evasion. Typical damage attribute for a Martial is going to STR for both to hit and to DMG.

Its a game of a Caster's Single Ability Dependency (SAD) vs most Martials' reliance on Multiple Ability Dependency (MAD).

Asides from being a ranged combatant, as you seem to favor melee thus far, is to get away from that.

Here's a more focused approach for some that may or may not appeal to you:

DEX to hit and damage is not just limited to Gunslingers. The downside, I hope you like Rapiers and or Scimitars for fencing/slashing grace. Oddly enough, there are so many fun slashing weapons you can employ for this.

Swashbuckler comes to mind, but a Magus (Kensai) is that hybrid that you can pursue. Likewise, a Paladin (Virtuous Bravo) is another way to play. And... while this can bridge the gap damage-wise, unless you play a class loaded with features not highlighting combat (Skill slots), you can never really close that gap in versatility.

Even that Virtuous Bravo of a Paladin earlier, would have some flavor. You're still a FULL-BAB Martial. You have many of the Paladin's defensive abilities. Ironically, the archetype takes the Caster out of Paladin. Tier 4 is effectively Tier None compared to aforementioned Inquisitor and Warpriest. This will allow you to focus on being a Martial, with a lot of the magical defensive/utility suite of the Paladin intact. DEX becomes your life for accuracy and damage, allowing you to secondary into CON (those two abilities likewise are key SAVE stats, with your DEX focus counteracting your weak Reflex). You can now lose STR and WIS (no more casting!) to fuel them. CHA would be a tertiary concern. Oh, and the Paladin laughs at most Will Save applications, which is one of its strong SAVEs to begin with. Oh... a potential Animal Companion that you don't need to ride, and if anything, can set you up for wonderful Flanks (an Axe-Beak that has Smite Evil and a built-in Celestial Template ain't the best, but it ain't bad for example). Losing the mercies kind of hurts... but hey, Smite Evil is still there, as is Detect Evil, and man are they handy in campaigns... unless you're those guys.

A Virtuous Bravo Paladin of Sarenrae weaving around with a flaming scimitar, there's some poetry in that. And now, it has crunch to back up that fluff.

Magus would allow you to be another single-target NOVA character, particularly if you can stack Kensai and Words of Power to turn every spell slot you have into a Spellstrike nuke delivered via precision poke. You only need 16 INT. Everything else would go into DEX. This would be the epitome of a glass cannon firing canister at base contact range. Being an Evocation specialist would also free up the other Casters to pursue Transmutation/Conjuration for example for variety. Unless its an on-table DPS olympics y'all are after.

Do not look at the size of the dice, but the size of bonuses on either side of said dice.

Getting back on track, versatility is gonna be nigh impossible to match against an equivalent player, and may I say that comparison is the killer of joy. Find defined roles, and hyper-focus into them.

Find your niche that you wish to fulfill for your party in combat (single-target murder), social encounters (bluff vs diplo... a knowledge field), and general adventuring (survival... disable device). I'd expect the Arcane to know Knowledge: Arcana, the Divine Religion (and both Planes, prolly History), and the Rogue-likes Local, but maybe you could be the Dungeoneering expert, and there's a lot of monsters there to know. Perform them as best as you're able, and encourage your party to support you in this by either allowing you to become the soloist in a given field or augmenting you in said role (buffs, etc). This way your successful and failed rolls directly correspond to party success and failure. That's the making of a team. One that has horrible flaws mind you ("What do you mean we don't have a Plan B?!"), but lack of dependency wouldn't be one ^_^

P.S. In the long run, that Unchained Monk of yours would've been better than any level equivalent summon at duels both offensively and defensively, and the Druid's AoEs outside of battlefield control would taper off as the CR of the opponents you face rose and you encounter enemies with resistances and/or magical equipment...

Gnome. Oracle (Heavens). Dual-Cursed (Clouded Vision, Tongues).
Couldn't see past 60', but he could see every star in the sky and never be lost. Profession(Astronomy) checks made my competitors cry inside at the absurdity. Traded away with Alternate Racial Features all the dumb stuff in lieu of Fey Thoughts & Master Tinker so he had some versatility and the ability to wield anything he "crafted". Heal/Curse on demand. Had a coterie of infinite Spiritual Weapons until the DM went to Paizo direct for an errata clarification on the RAW/RAI of Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter/Merciful Spell combo.

Aasimar (Small -RPed as Gnome parentage cuz Blood of Angels). Druid (Menhir Savant). Tyrannosaurus AC (Celestial Template from Aasimar Feat Celestial Servant). Never stocked rations, but turned every edible enemy into food with the justification that he's never seen a Poop-Zombie come back to haunt his group. Liked to convert enemies into trophies. Hide Armor made of skin (he loved people with tattoos), kilt & cloak made of stitched scalps (also loved people with long/braided/dyed hair), collected teeth as primitive currency. A juxtaposition with treatment of the T-Rex as more of a child than pet. Dressed her up in "civilized" clothes, and because her widdle arms weren't much good in combat, taxidermied really distinct BBEGs heads as puppets for her to play with. Protagonist, Antagonist, Narrator format performances. Used this character to prod at Players' social limits, especially with a Neutral Evil Aasimar as a real sticking point.

Gnome (seeing a pattern here?). Mesmerist. Went Dex-Damage route to maximize AC/DPR using Slashing Grace & an Aldori Dueling Sword custom-sized. Enforced choo-choo ride by constantly implanting tricks onto party members. Pretty much the Oracle's personality refined, and no obligation to cast buffs on the party with the implanted tricks replacing them, before combat, no less.

Goblin (Spelleater Tribe munchkin goodness). Gunslinger (Musket Master). Used a Regular-Sized Musket. Enjoyed hanging back and potting away adversaries, and never bothered with Precise Shot, so watch out allies. RPed with the same accent as Druid: Slingblade drawl.

Drow, Noble. Magus (Black Blade/Kensai). Between the Arcane Mark Spellstrike & Estoc (settled on Rapier *sigh* eventually cuz errata) abuse and just the fact that the DM loosely worded allowed races, this character broke the campaign from inception. Kind of sad about it really. Getting what you want but losing the cohesion of the group, not worth it, but he was fun to pilot, especially with the gratuitous Franglais Poirot accent I hammed up. Black Blade's persona was Pepe le Pew egging the Drow Noble to inappropriate ways of interacting with surface ladies.

Adventuring. My Gnome PCs simply have to tag along with a group of Adventurers, and somehow, the effort to keep them alive and well never ends, never stops in variety, and oh boy is it fun to discover yet ANOTHER way to pull them out of the fire... some of which I may or may not have started, but that's besides the point. If you want it back by rules, have a craft, knowledge, or perform skill that you pursue that doesn't have to be related to your class. Handle Animal would be a thematic one for your character; I've always had an Obsession Log, and when the pages fill up, I just doodle over captured Spellbooks. A warning on that last one... do not use magical implements writing over what may be enchanted pages, unless someone else is carrying that book for you.

I've bleached in some campaigns. It wasn't tied to ennui, but trauma. A malaise so bad (TPK sole survivor, abandonment by party, yatta yatta) that I chose for it to have an effect in-game. Kind of a neat, but sad way to RP a campaign termination. Everyone dies, and here I am fading... yet I remained, diminished?

It's up to interpretation since there isn't a hard meter or point counter. If your Gnome is having the time of their lives, the Bleaching is probably not a worry. I don't like the flavor on constant new experiences. One would think enjoyment/motivation would be the key. At some point, that conscious drive to do something new OR ELSE would get old. I've ported over a Gnome from Sharn before just to avoid this fluff trash.

OP: Good luck with your Gnome Barbarian. The munchkin in me hopes you chose Titan Mauler as an archetype, but the Gnome side is rooting for you to represent us.

A Druid of mine ate/processed fallen enemies with Serial-Killer dedication, but he accepted the Neutral Evil alignment that came bundled with, and I didn't have the heart to try and pass it off as LN to maintain class requirements. Attempting to justify it may be a moot point; the issues I encountered was it bothers peoples' comfort zones of ethics to be exposed to that kind of RP on the tabletop. It bothered my DM and other Players, no matter how many times I tried to have them prove the last time they saw a Poop-Revenant, or never having to worry about starving while "Adventuring."

The look on that Paladin's face when that rival tomb-robber Velrian Hypaxes from Mummy's Wrath came back after us was so perfect when I grumbled out "Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda..."

That campaign saw me excommunicated by Pharasma (all I did was ensure NO ONE escaped the Natural Order!) and "accidentally" aligned with Zyphus.

I had fun running it in multiple campaigns/APs, but I knew I bothered friends, so Grim the "Non-Cannibal" Menhir Savant(he insists he NEVER ate another Gnome/Aasimar)had to get retired, roleplayed as sliding off the deep end and becoming a bigger threat than the enemies presented.

I've run Oracle in both mundane and Mythic flavors, and to me they are a solid, but fair option. Bear in mind they are always going to be measured against Clerics in effectiveness, so that OP's DM should have a mitigating view on Clerics if he is going to be fair/impartial.

That being said (I admit, I am making assumptions) though, it would be sheer cheese/munchkin past experience that may be the yardstick being measured against.

Exploiting Curses to be a positive boon. Legalistic can only be exploited only if the DM lets it be so (I've seen this escalate, and the House, as in the DM, has deeper reserves to pull from to win that tit-for-tat wording war a la Wish/Contract boiler-plate). Another way to mitigate is taking Vampiric as a lesser curse while a Dhampir (the negative energy healing already came from the Race, so the Curse is moot)... Synergy is the key, and the Oracle NEEDS to focus and synergize to optimize the build. Unless the DM has a problem with optimizing in the first place, and that's its own bag of worms to address outside of this thread.

Even Tongues isn't a bad lesser curse. Do I need to talk in combat? Does my spoken spells NEED to be a in a specific language? I'm pretty sure seeing Rogue spurting blood all over the place is my cue to tamp down with some kind of heal, or if I succeed at Spellcraft, I may get a chance to understand what debuff is/will hit my comrades and ready my response. I used to maintain a list of Morgan Freeman quotes so I could roleplay being only able to speak Celestial when under duress.

The really debilitating ones like Clouded Vision I can play for RP effect. My comrades are encouraged to always have at least one battle buddy near me so I don't get left behind or isolated. Talk about never having to whine about being covered by an ally. And if you're near the healer, you may be prioritized most for their divine aid.

Before Kineticist and Vigilante, Oracle to me had the most FLAVOR as a class. Not all Revelations are good, the better to trade them out for archetype bonuses and such. Dual-Cursed is the perfect way to winnow out what some may feel are excessive poor Revelations within a given Mystery. I'd take THRICE-Cursed (no Thrune!) just to get Dual Mystery in a Paizo archetype. I salivate at that cheese!

Try taking one of the non-combat Mysteries like Heavens and traipse through your DM's Magical Realm. Screw Combat bonuses, I FLOAT!(and pray the DM does not remember there are penalties attached to that. Is there water? Yesssssss! Reach Weapon/Ranged Oracle FTW! Gotta spend full-round actions to Metamagic? Somebody hold/rope me and tow me into position, Mush!(in the event of the Tongues Oracle, "Andy!") Never get lost outside at night? (Once convincing a DM with a high enough Profession-Astronomer check that "Technically" the stars are always out, especially that big one in the sky that provides us this daylight effect-okay I admit that was pure exploitation going Anaxagoras on the poor guy, but that NAT20 had to go somewhere dammit). A scaling armor that frees up money to spend on other items? Inducing a hostile caster or somebody that may need it into a touch-AC no-save rage? A free nightly Commune? Judging by Capstones is a limited viewpoint unless you're seeding at 20. Best prioritize utilities that can go from acquirement to retirement.

There was such a character to being weak-sighted, but always able to perceive the most distant stars as Dual-Cursed (Clouded Vision, Lesser Tongues-Celestial) Heavens Mystery widdle Gnome wandering through Golarion's wilds. The tiny "Pathfinder" guiding the team whenever, wherever, outdoors as the Dhampirs preferred to travel overland at night. I am a Wayfinder lol. Gnome Positioning from Stars GPS. Too bad I got em all killed on a snowy mountain... floating down the avalanche that TPKed that campaign.

The one thing I regret is that the Oracle is faced with the dilemma of splitting Combat/Metamagic Feats because they are designed to be a Caster able to wade into the Line and take some heat off buddy Martials. Only ways I've found viable was DEX->DMG builds for shield Oracle, or gambling on STR and being a primary Caster on a Reach-Weapon Oracle build, which still needed to run Combat Reflexes for action economy purposes. We're not a SAD class.

Considering the fact that Oracles progress slightly slower than Clerics in terms of spellcasting tier unlocks, could it just be the 9-Tiers of spells that bothers your DM? I don't mean to insinuate -we all have comfort levels of what mechanics we can deal with (simpler Grapple, crafting, etc.), and I latched onto Oracle after transferring over from 3.5 specifically because it was something different from Cleric/Favored Soul.

I manipulated my Players to enact an in-game party-purge without their (As Players and PCs) knowledge.

Backdrop: 3.5E Eberron. High-Power launch due to initial Player wanting to be a Red Dragon. The Wyrmling in Hero Lab was ECL11; the seed became 11. Player, hereafter referred to as Red Dragon brought in two friends who were also PF Vets into my 3.5E campaign. One was a Rogue because I was not familiar with PF Ninja and 3.5E Ninja didn't fit the mood. Other was a Cleric again because I was not familiar with PF Alchemist and I asked both to choose classes I was familiar with.

Played at Fort Riley's MWR (Rec Center) in public setting within a conference room with projector. People could see us play because I mapped everything in PowerPoint on the screen. Other off-duty Soldiers came in who were curious and I happily started rolling them up. Used WBL to bring everyone up and I researched my CR11 & up roster of opponents.

Initial Players were MurderHobos I came to discover as the Cleric came to the forefront in personality and action. Newcomer Players were naive Adventurers. The Perfect Storm, and they stuck to their own groups -the Veteran Team Dragon, and the newcomer Shark Team Six (one of the newcomers first actions was to resort to being towed by sharks befriended by the Druid when their boat sank during an insertion into Thrane).

Newcomers resented Team Dragon overshadowing them and controlling narrative as I coached them to proficiency. I started rolling extra sessions with them in the rec center to teach them mechanics, particularly spellcasting and how at higher levels, casters did not rely on dice rolls to succeed.

Team Dragon wanted to heist the Dragomarked bank guild. I said O-Kay and since we run really long all day sessions (From 10AM-10PM) on weekends, I began to manage separate encounters. Cool experience; one group could observe/comment on the other's progress and we could run operations simultaneously, majority of them supportive. Team Dragon cased the joint, did dry runs up to the vault on infiltration, and hid out till Shark Team Six would do the actual story mission nearby, which would provide the cover they wanted for the heist.

The heist went bad. Dragonmarks can't be counterfeited. In a world rife with Magic... Dwarven bankers had contingencies for Plane Shifting robberies. PCs came away with XP, but no loot they could salvage, save the corpse of their hostage and his equipment. They were mad, and went off to eat somewhere to cool off.

During this time, I shifted focus to Shark Team Six, who were simultaneously doing their own encounter against their political targets in Breland -their shenanigans provided the physical distraction away from the banking guild. Failed, but happy everyone got back alive.

Healer NPC (part of a cadre that would support high-level PCs as they waged a destabilization campaign throughout Khorvaire to disrupt the status quo and force reconciliation - discreetly backed by the remnants on the former capital island) touched them up and we decided to train on enemies that had really good DR/SR and SLAs. Constructs and Devils/Demons. I found a trite reason to tie this in to the plot as an infernal incursion. Whatever, Good VS. Evil was enough for them to be motivated.

Bard was hitting his stride, Druid was coming into his own balancing melee and casting, and the Barbarian was grooving into how aggressive he could be. Ranger was improving on being the firefighter of the group who could skirmish or serve as the final line before the Bard and the Wizard, who was beginning to discover the wonders of Save-or-Suck after the glow of Evocation wore off.

Good fight; half the PCs were downed by the time the last devil fell. The Druid was the only one left with double digit HP whilst the Bard was CLW/CMW wanding the Ranger & Wizard.

Druid was really immersed as a PC. Throughout the campaign his character was more and more shaken, so by the time he hit L12, he was outright paranoid being so far from his home woods.

Team Dragon arrived and settled in; the group had to reunite to proceed to the next sector of Breland that needed rabble-rousing. I continued them as having flown carried by Red Dragon to meet Shark Team Six at the arranged rendezvous... which was at the time an active battlefield that Shark Team Six was busy fighting for their lives in.

*Beat*

This is where I realized I could shake the game up.

Druid was on overwatch, and I narrated the entrance of dark wings approaching from the distance.

I am known for hammering PCs with waves to burn out daily abilities and really give them max value of loot/EXP out of encounters -and I wanted them to hit L20 someday. This group of newcomers learned spellcasting/per day abilities in reverse. They learned to love their caltrops, flour, pitons, rope, and 10' poles as much as the enhancement bonuses on their gear.

Someone on Shark Team Six did not understand that I was narrating Team MurderHobo to them. I like flow in my games, so everything, every success, every failure, some mundane details, are story.

Druid Player asked me for their altitude. He grunted when I gave him an arbitrary figure- above three hundred feet (Team Dragon had climbed to avoid wand-fire and never announced a descent -I assumed this was their cruising height) and said he was readying a spell, rummaging through his remaining prepared slots, asking me to tell him when the straight-line distance between them cross some figure near two-twenty feet. Team Dragon were discussing amongst themselves about a second run at the financial institution, like raiding the nearest banking guild's villa and carving out those Dragonmarks out if they had to.

The Cleric was specced for Negative Energy and was very good at it; they were all banged up from the heist -even the Wyrmling Red Dragon took hits as the getaway flyer. Ocean's Three they were. Tell us when we get there, they told me, and I said yes, so they began descending.

Druid didn't hear over the Ranger exclaiming "Not these jackasses again!"

I could have stepped in then. Clarified the situation.

But no, I fell into the abyss instead as the DM and let the madness roll.

"I target the demon-thing with Earthbind," called out the Druid.

"Demons?" the Red Dragon commented. "You've had them fighting Demons? Without us?"

I looked down at my screen and signed away my soul then as a DM.

I referenced the Red Dragon's sheet and told the Druid that the demon had SR. He made the roll.

I asked the Red Dragon to make a Fortitude Save, stating a spell targeting him had just overcome his SR. He failed, and asked, where the demon was so he could get in on the action.

"Oh my God," the Wizard muttered, understanding what was happening and staring me down to intervene.

I failed my conscience roll.

"The Druid has stripped your ability to fly with Earthbind," I informed the Red Dragon.

"Why is he attacking us?" the Cleric asked flustered.

The Rogue was as confused as the Bard and the Ranger. The Druid was stunned, realizing he might have just targeted a friendly. The Barbarian just walked in from the bathroom and into a fog of tension that filled the conference room.

Earthbind feather falls a target. The Druid wanted an anti-air option to bring flying enemies down to ground and I suggested it to him. From his shock, I knew that didn't get that part -another failure on my part.

And neither did Team Dragon.

It was on my tongue... the feather fall part.

"I'm taking you with me!" the Red Dragon declared, called a charge attack as he "fell". "Eighteen!"

Ironically, he asked me if he needed a fly check instead. Poker-faced, I replied, "you beat his AC," evading the complicit misunderstanding.

The Rogue asked the Cleric to do something, not me. The Cleric measured his slots perfectly for the heist, prepping exactly the needed Teleport and Plane Shift spells.

I muttered a prayer to some Dark God. I only heard laughter inside my head in reply.

I couldn't punish my unwitting Druid for my sins. So his animal companion, Nicki the Anaconda under my control, did so instead and pushed him away before the declared impact. As the Druid protested, I coldly told him, "roll 20D6 for falling damage." I called around the table for the players to start pooling dice.

Pandemonium. All in my hands to retcon and fiat away. Nah!

I paused the game then, and with it, closed the lid on coffin; four of them to be precise.

I had to separate them from the stunned Druid Player.

"We're going to re-roll!" the Rogue Player told me. "You want a counter-campaign, you're going to get it now." he promised. The Red Dragon had this hurt look on his face. The First Player in this campaign, and I let this happen to him. By a Noob. The Cleric walked him off in disgust. The Rogue followed.

The Druid told them he was sorry as they were leaving. I knew he meant it. "Take it back," he asked me.

The Wizard told me that Earthbind couldn't do that. "I know." I told him. "But even if I told them and made it better, they'd come back just to kill the Druid."

"Why did you let this happen?!" the Wizard accused.

"Because it needed to be done, and by your hands," I told the remaining Players.

I handed the Barbarian twenty bucks to get us some pizza and beer from the bar outside the conference room. "Now," I announced, "we can get back to adventuring."

*beat*

That campaign concluded that night, and I rolled them fresh characters at 2nd level and restarted them as another team in the story, handling lower-level affairs in Sharn while their original PCs went on to do grander things in the backdrop of Khorvaire.

Team Dragon vanished. They weren't missed.

Deliberately, I've scheduled "Arena Sessions" where for a portion of the session, the story steers towards an internal competition/conflict settlement within the group.

1v1, group fights, grand melee, run it as a normal encounter. I try to ensure the battlefield has mixture of LoS breakers, cover, and open lanes/flats that people can take advantage of tactically, so Mr. Mage doesn't get curbstomped turn-one by the charging Barbarian, and likewise that same Barbie would not be picked off from 100' off the bat by the ranged Inquisitor that's been pre-baking judgments even before the bell rang. Bear in mind, this does favor stealth classes -if the opponsing PC was so foolish as to try and stalk a rogue in cover. As in, both Players have LoS at the start of the fight, but there's plenty of terrain to develop in atwixt them.

Coercing the pretty-princess type of PC to be Ring-Girl is just another bonus. Once, it took my Players 2 matches to figure out I was playing out their bloodpig match as a spoof on Space Jam. I had to start playing the match music from the soundtrack.

Please establish rules like in MMO/Shooter PvP sessions that don't occur in deathmatch context of "No Finishers". If that critical goes overkill, then let it; I'm talking about prohibiting Coup de Grace. Winning is the goal, not Fatalities a la MK. As a DM, I take a hard line on maiming/defiling downed Players by other PCs because that is anti-social behavior not by that PC, but by the Player piloting that toon.

I enjoy PVP in the campaigns I engage in as a PC and a DM, because it accesses a paradigm of combat that frankly, a lot of PCs do not know. Rather than tell, it shows people where their build excels/fails.

Storytime: 60' Vision Oracle vs. Pistolero in an open arena. I had to play Marco Polo with lead slugs. I roleplayed it as seeing his shots coming out of the void at the edges of my sight, just using the opportunity to move-action, and cast an appropriate spell as needed. It was crazy, and frankly put, his dice saved me from himself. Touch AC vs. Will Save was the subtitle of that fight. That Oracle will forever tell his progeny of how Divine(luck) wins Championships.

Case in point, when my Party was overwhelmed with loot that didn't match our builds -the DM rolled for the drops, and I respect that, we simply kept amassing them functionally "worthless" spoils into a travelling stockpile where we eventually petitioned the DM for some kind of planar merchant that we can exchange the hoard for a 25% exchange rate on equipment we DID need for our builds. Heck, it may have been closer to 5:1 -we were just so desperate for stuff to upgrade into.

In the interim, periodically we'd use the "sub-optimal" choice just to get through the next fight. It was kind of fun, using all those random wands and staves that dropped, simply because I took a look at group composition prior to campaign kickoff and MADE SURE I had UMD.

Took the mystique out of it, sure, but we proposed and accepted a penalty from a EZ CASH-style compromise to actually acquire equipment we did need.

I accept the hell of being a Small character in a Medium loot world, so I'm used to compromises when it comes to equipment. If not Gnome, then a Small Aasimar as per Blood of Angels when I choose to go more Martial than Mage. If I'm engaging primarily Mediums and up, I don't expect pint-size weapons and armor at every point. If anything, the group notices my plight and key-tags me for priority on magical items to keep me within fair spoil-sharing (Those "+"s I talked about earlier compound so well, and I love random artifacts -the more likely to result in "accidental" TPK, the better). I just bank assets till I can splurge it at a DM-appointed moment where I can custom-order equipment to fit me.

All-in-all the compromise worked. The DM rewarded loot he felt was fair and wasn't user-targeted to where we would STEAMROLL his precious campaign, and we the Players had some additional RP forced upon us by having to work with equipment we didn't want, and then exchanging it eventually at some loss for equipment we did need, but not at the numbers the DM feared that we would ROFLSTOMP his quests.

Magic Mart is inherently necessary unless you are running an E6 or other low-threat campaign, unless your Players are kind-hearted enough to donate +1/+2s to local militias. I META the hell out of any campaign I join, not the plot, but the DM's style, so I can plan accordingly on how item-dependent my build will be. The more lax and generous they are, the more I can Min-Max because I know my gaps will be covered. The stricter/leaner, the more general my builds are, because nothing is more painful than missing a save or being struck by a margin of 1. Rolling 1s I laugh at and accept, but missing by a hair really stings.

Because of the "+". It's ubiquitous. Should magic items have state-based effects, as in, weapon enchant does not add inherent damage, but change damage type, or an armor enchant protects against a specific damage type.

Magic in these fantasy universes is USER-FRIENDLY. There is no mystique, because that road has been traveled, surveyed, and turned into a superhighway littered with tourist attractions.

Fantasy gaming has kept evolving, and unlike the VGs that crunch the numbers for you, the stacks are only getting bigger. I first noticed the discrepancy playing Neverwinter Nights and Morrowind in my youth and actually seeing the rolls flash before my eyes in the display, how fast they were executed.

It's the exposure that did it. Lemme relate it to a real-life example.

Serving in Iraq, some of the locals initially thought we could see in the dark and were bullet-proof. Shock-and-Awe really worked those first few months.

As we settled into "Nation-Building" and fell into patterns of routine, they eventually realized... no, that was our equipment. We can't see in the dark, we have night-vision devices and lasers that allow us to operate at night more effectively. We weren't bullet proof, we just wore armor rated to stop several rounds... and that didn't cover our whole body.

Exposure to us led to the mystique wearing off. And once it wore off, they began accounting for it and planning around it effectively.

Back on topic, Magic is as commonplace as tech and its progress is IRL. just as I had a Note 2 phone and like it... why wouldn't I follow the Note progression to Note 7-oops bad example!

You can fruit-flavor magic to any degree you want in a campaign from base-stating its effect or speaking in purple prose, but without penalties and hard-setbacks (IE, eyesight for insight a la Odin), you would expect it to behave by very stable rules, as much a part of character progression as gaining levels and being GUARANTEED that bonus feat or class feature.

As much as I would love to recite the seraphic incantations on my Ironwood Holy Club of Speed a la Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, I'm pretty sure the rest of the table would eventually kill me as I delivered every divine strike with a verse from a sermon.

I play Mages, Arcane and Divine. I recognize the value of having Fighters in my group of friends... friends that help prevent me from getting beaten down, preferably by imposing themselves between the threat and I. Often and without fail.

They are reliable, and when they engage into their groove, they can cast "Sword" more often than I have spell slots.

I don't believe they are as weak as people complain that they are, and as more supplements are released, they will only get more versatility, that one field where Fighters are classed into as being limited characters.

Think about it this way, the most broken spells are arguably most contained in CRB, and with Mythic and non-Epic spell progression, we will never see Base-10+ level spells. But, every so often, you have additional rules that give cool stuff to Martials.

Will the gap ever truly close? Prolly not. But, are they giving Martials more tools to have fun and contribute? I believe so. Weapon Master for example, and all those cool weapon/armor masteries you could swap out for stuff to tweak your character.

Regarding the original post... I'm glad your group realizes their value too. Unless you are in a high-magic, special-effect overkill campaign, having a linear-progression DPS buddy should not be considered a hindrance where you wish that player went Magus instead.

Are we asking for Paizo to print a canon version of Book of Nine Swords?

...I'll show myself out.

I wouldn't push it. Being a Paladin, if you want, what would your Character do if they had the ability to basically achieve 3 minor miracles? Self-gain, ostensibly to do further good better, or something more selfless?

Regarding wishes and yeah, not every DM will run you over, especially if you try NOT to abuse the wish system (in a fantasy universe, I doubt you'd be the first mortal to wish for a wish chain). Go for the small guaranteed bonuses that CANNOT come back to haunt you later, like the +3 ability score if you stacked the remaining three wishes.

Personally, with 3 wishes remaining... I would Geas the rest of the team into questing for what THEY believe is inherently good to them. Nothing like that LOL-Random CN Rogue ACTUALLY being forced to call on their Robin Hood act. Hope that the DM allows you to count as a Cleric for you to pull this off, as they do have access to that spell in the form of Quest.

Screw the bonuses, having the Paladin mind-screw the party into behaving as what their characters espouse is their idea of righteousness is comedy mithril, a win-condition in a game where having fun is the true objective.

EX: "Klepto, I impel you to crusade for your ideal libertarian society by founding one, nurturing it, and leading it... and remember that clause where you don't believe leaders would use their position for pleasure, profit, or personal safety?"

*Players: Get their kidneys pushed in every time they foray into the dungeon... they start adventuring in the city instead doing odd jobs and "enjoying" the metropolis that is Sharn in Eberron. I shifted my campaign to where they went from Dungeon Delvers to oddball handymen pursuing special requests on fantasy Craigslist to where their delivery/find jobs eventually became harder than the first dungeons they were trying to clear.

*As a Player: There is no situation where appropriate use of Fireball will not solve the problem. Enemy immune to ALL Magic, a la Mage's Disjunction? "Not Immune to Physics!" I say. Fireball to cause avalanche on snowy mountain. Turns out there were rules that covered avalanches, who knew?

As a Gnome Player, I find this an odd point (pun?) to nitpick considering the variety of NEON tones I can be, and that's before the magic question regarding Carpet/Drape color combinations even gets addressed.

Personally, I'd say screw playing to win as the DM and ham up the moment for comedic effect. I assume you're not a kill-em-all DM?

The BBEG has 9th-level Commune that the Party is present for... if the heroes do not attack by question 2 (First one is typically "who", second is "where"), those PCs deserve what they get. You get a short sentence reply at most, and the highest number of words I saw was "Five" on the rules.

I've had clerics disowned or forcibly transferred by their own deities ^_^ before. Hilarity ensued. In previous campaigns, I've confronted my Deity/DM with a PowerPoint slideshow representing your proposal points during Commune representing what you know, what you desire, blah blah blah.

In one campaign, as a Druid I was disowned by Sarenrae to an unwilling Pharasma, whom ended up "losing me" to her rival: Zyphus, whom I accidentally had an affinity for after all. There was an ongoing in-character debate as to my stance on undead and how to prevent/eliminate them, especially in taking the initiative. My reasoning was "I've never seen a poop-lich, have you?" when it came to my "cannibalization" of enemies. For the record, I never ate a fellow Gnome, so my Druid feigned the criticism was unjust ^_^.

Tangent, I know, but it plays up to my "Ham Moment" point at the beginning. In-character, imagine being on the table to see a flustered deity chastising one of Her fervent believers whom is doing his best to vindicate his beliefs in Her, albeit with a comedic/malignant method, almost as if some other deity is pulling his strings behind the scene...

Best campaign payoff I've ever seen when the Paladin made a desperation Knowledge: Religion roll. "O-M-Iomedae! You're Evil! You belonged to Zyphus the whole time, you little bastard!"

Meta-gaming on the table to frame a narrative, as a Player I started listing several tragedies/offences caused directly/indirectly by my Druid. Then, in characer, I replied innocently: "Mistakes happen?"

To address the original post:

Because people transpose their personal playstyle onto other players. And those people can take their extra damage die and roll em up where the sun don't shine.

I play Gnomes, and I'm the first one to admit that we cannot play like Medium Characters and hope to come out on top; there's better DEX races out there and heaven forbid one of us tries out for the DPS Olympics in STR events. About one of the few instances where we'd shine (again, a situational) is the land of 5' corridors attacking with Mounts/ACs.

Any time you have to pursue an extra feat-tree, the opposing build you are competing against just pulled ahead that much further.

Does that stop me from going toe-to-toe? Hell naw! Nothing funnier than the GNOME Oracle stepping up and TANKING for the team that prioritized DPS. Pint-sized Divine Casters are Blessed for how protected they are.

I play tactically; I apply enough defensive schemes/layers that because the DM is tired of missing my character, I've figured out I could be the anti-kite that maneuvers mooks and BBEG around himself. Our true hole in our defenses are CMB effects.

Getting back to the point: unless they as a Player cannot handle an unoptimal concept, what's the harm? It's another stylistic fight, much like the constant C/M-D debates... oh Cayden Cailean I've said it out loud.

An aside question: Small Template does not automatically impose an STR penalty, I thought that's just factored into the featured Races. Doesn't Blood of Angels state that Aasimars need not be humans, but could also be the offspring of other races, ex: Gnomes and Halflings... so an Angelkin Aasimar of munchkin parentage would have a corresponding +2 bonus instead of a -2 pentalty?

Just to point out, trip can be rather problematic for a small race since you can only trip a target up to one size larger than you are. If going with a small character, tripping will have far more limited options than with a normal one.

Good advice; I've run into it before and it's nice that Fighter can get Poised Bearing to bring me even with a Medium PC for CMB elibility.

DTE really loves his Rangers ^_^.

I just got burned on them from 3.5, and the Players I've seen them run in a campaign were woefully unoptimized in an environment where it became a meta-campaign between me and the DM to challenge the limits of CR and how to challenge the party as a whole without one-shotting the average PCs. Slayer redeemed the Ranger theme for me, and had fun with it in the PF setting.

Just focusing on Fighter this thread. I'm really finding the Fauchard appealing, despite the feat cost because of it's modest crit rate, reach, trip, and damage. Plus the evolved ceremonial versions look very sweet fluff-wise.

Plus there was this cool AWT that lets me treat a favored weapon a la WarPriest, and that goes some distance to equalizing a small PC's base damage. My goal with Feats isn't just to stack numbers a la Greater Versions of WpnFoc and WpnSpec, but unlock wonder CMB abilities and synergistic passive bonuses.

Chess Pwn wrote:

And if it's a survival game which class is getting a better survival skill than a druid or shaman putting ranks into survival? Now factor in that they have spells to help them find/make food and other really handy spells to have when trying to survive. Removing take 10 doesn't stop casters from easily trivializing a survival game.

Druids don't have any create food spells in an environment where there aren't berries to pick. And the spell does specify that the berries must be freshly picked.

Backed into starvation's corner after a short segue away from the party, my Druid may emerge and declare that he has, in fact, recently picked these here "Dingle" Berries. And the party had damn well be grateful.

It pays to be a harvester of fallen enemies (basically makes me a NE Druid because of "cannibalism". For the record, I've never consumed my own species/genus in a campaign)... I've been in plane-locked survival-horror dungeons. Don't worry, it was just the DM's thing and we regarded it lightheartedly because that's the type of campaign he was known for. Compartmentalized and very controlled. All I had to do as a Player was plan accordingly to be viable within those parameters and oh yeah, may be able to keep the rest of the party alive.

Being serious and contributing to the current phase the thread is in: yeah, PF is definitely what we would call "NobleBright" as a High Fantasy setting. Players should always have a chance of success that they can reasonably understand and strive towards. If the Party is ever reduced to Nat 20 or 15+ rolls to succeed at combat and have achievable skill targets, then the DM has failed to adapt to his Party. Likewise, if the DM is constantly blindsided and have the narrative bypassed constantly, then the Party is actively killing the DMs motivation to run the game.

Give and take.

I've played along with what I think are DUMB phases... hell, sometimes I've deliberately proposed stupid courses of action. Why? Because everyone would love it and it's up to me to find the silver lining and have fun with them.

EX:

Objective: River Captains are currently holding a VIP captive. Client wants VIP rescued. Emphasizes non-violence. Wants to maintain peace and work relationship with River Captains.

Group: DMNPC is high CHA. My Oracle is a pint-size cloudy-eyed floating Demagogue. Rest are demi-casters and martials built for PVE. Oh, and a kleptomaniac Sylph.

META: DIPLOMANCY with both loveable PCs.

How to keep everyone engaged instead: Conduct Cheeseake Burlesque Fighting Tournament to keep every distracted by our charismatics and our Martials and send our stealth specialists to sneak out VIP.

"Beauties versus Brawnies" was a campaign moment I'll cherish forever. We got the mission done, the River Captains loved us, and our group made a positive first impression into our foray into the River Kingdoms. By the time they figured out that they were hoodwinked, both sides were laughing about it on the shoreline.

Did we need a convoluted set of hard rules to facilitate that? I'm sure the DM was making up the target rolls, but the Players took it upon themselves to sell the idea and perform it the best they can.

The title fight was between a Half-Orc Brawler and the Sylph lesbian Roguette. With our DMNPC "Princess" Dhampir Gunslinger coerced to be the dancing ring-girl and my Oracle the overly-enthusiastic EmCee.

Our DM was near tears that we actually did not deliberately curbstomp an encounter that night and actually drove him to freestyle a social encounter.

Oh yes, this current thread is discussing possible builds using Fighter. I am not seeking to be competitive, but synergistic enough within the build (IE one or two main focuses that complement/support each other). I may have to go with Eldritch Guardian for the additional skill points and superior version of Bravery. STR-build, on a small template no less (Aasimars!) and utilizing polearms, like a Fauchard. A small character whacking opponents two squares away is an amusing concept, now time to back the fluff with some crunch, like an ideal snack. The additional attacks from TWF is nice, particularly if you have boosters attached to each swing, but I like fewer, more accurate and hard hitting effects. If the DM is waging a challenging campaign, that extra +2 or more compared to another build adds up over time as opponent AC ramps with your progression. In easy campaigns it turns to Gunslinger Syndrome, where instead of rolling to hit, the Player feels like they are simply rolling not to misfire. I am the Player that knows the more I roll, the more 1s I drop.

The other pure Martial I'd be interested in is the Slayer. It seems less appealing ever since they Unchained Rogue. Cavalier is another pure Martial I've helped other Players design builds for before as well. Playing small characters, I typically have no problems bringing along my ACs, and for the bigger ones, that's what the Squeezing condition is for.

As a Player, I detest many situational class features. Thus, as a Ranger, whilst I'd hem and haw over retaining my meager spell list, I would entirely trade out Favored Enemy for a constant bonus, same with Favored Terrain. In fact so many of the nature flavored features that yeah, I'd end up with a Slayer at the end ^_^.

@G-TW: Thx, you put some good concepts out with that. Too bad THF can't proc off DEX, otherwise that'd be a fun style for me to go off. Find a reach weapon that has trip and have fun with it.

Funny how you bring up Falchion, because before my time apparently Falchion Fred was a thing at one point and irritated one of my ex-DMs to no end as a prime example of munchkinning.

It was good to learn more about AAT and AWT; I'm definitely going to be studying those plug-and-play options.

What you described is a Weapon Master Fighter to the T.

I don't think it stacks with anything, but it trades out what you say you don't want and expands only on one weapon.

You're right... wow, it's so simply pure. Thx for that. Wonder if anyone else found a stack recipe that works too.

Hello Advice Column!

I have been perusing my archive of builds and noticed that I have been ignoring Martials... and I've been advised before that I shouldn't always bring a 9-Spell level caster to a campaign, sometimes outright threatened to "limited to being a Fighter" (their words, not mine).

I am seeking advice on archetype-stacking Fighter. The class features I wish to replace entirely are Bravery and Advanced Armor Training, and would like to have a modified Weapon Training feature that focuses on either one family, or one weapon only. Armor and Weapon Mastery are likewise expendable as frankly, I do not expect this build to ever be in a campaign that'll reach capstone 20. In essence it's a Fighter whose only retains some of its bonus feats.

Weapon/Armor Proficiencies are likewise expendable and I am willing to part with some of the bonus feats as some archetypes have locked options. Eventually Mithral Armors help mitigate a lot of the inconveniences, as I've come to love Mithral Kikko.

I looked at Ustalavic-Duelist/Siegebreaker/Dervish of Dawn as a stack but it's illegal because of the mandatory feats at level one, though one can houserule away their first feat choices in favor of one of the overlapping mandatory LVL 1 feats.

Seems crazy, I know, but Fighter as plenty of Feats that pass along its career path that one can still go for an interesting CMB playstyle that can not only DPS, but also debuff/control enemies a la Trip, Disarm, etc, and heck, even fun styles like shield bashing.

Be it as a polearm-wielder, a crossbowman, or someone using a rapier foolishly on an STR build, I seek a functional (not optimal, just synergistic) Fighter that does not fall into the traditional armored brute mold. I can roleplay well enough to in story mode, though having 2-3 skill/level is gonna hurt versatility.

The typical races I play are Gnome and Aasimar (small), though I do have a fondness for Fetchlings, and would like to RP a Strix someday. Humans I understand are about the best race to play PF, but RPing I prefer to take advantage of the diversity that's on Golarion.

Thanks for reading, and if you have any input, then please drop in.

I try to optimize as hard as I can; and yeah, it's caused enough style and personality clashes to end campaigns. "Create Water" to me is a life-saver, and nothing more entertaining that reliably using temporary potable water whenever I can be it to solve puzzles or have an excuse to declare an action, no matter how out of place in general roleplaying phases. Example: In Mummy's Mask, I idled away time by filling the empty shallow pools for my T-Rex AC "Princess" and I to play in whilst my companions were bickering over the next course of action. It kept me from being involved in their wanking (table politics) kept me away from the impending threat of what PCs standing in the open arguing would invite (metagaming). Two positives, one cantrip.

"Rule of Fun" may be the best guideline when you encounter a situation where the munchkining begins demoralizing the DM and other Players, but the group is going to have to reorganize (IE Boot the problem player) if agreement cannot be reached, and at least once I was the one that had to go. More than once, I've found myself complained on (fairly) on the Paizo forums... kinda how I made an account ^_^ to see how accurately I was being disruptive from the community perspective. Breaking the game should be enjoyable, especially for people like me who like a little escapism, rebellion, wit, and sarcasm in my hobby. After a certain point, these PCs go from their humble roots and go on to careers that parallel Superheroes.

System Mastery can and should dictate the effectiveness of the Players and the PCs they roleplay in regards to dice-ruled actions like combat and problem solving (Player Vs Environment PVE). Unlike in video games, the "patches"(errata) may not come as quickly to bring balance back to the playing field, and the most successful FPS and MMOs have continuous balancing acts throughout their life-cycles. That being said, with tabletop RP being a direct personal interaction, one has to balance that drive and competitiveness to where as many participants as possible are enjoying themselves. Why? Because if a Player is always being overshadowed, always being overruled, always being corrected, always being sidelined or passed over, then I won't blame em a bit for walking off the table -they have no investment or true value to or from the group. I feel bad as a DM when Players leave because I couldn't provide them with a rewarding experience.

Regarding ease of breakability (the original thread topic?), I would say that the ceiling of possibility was higher in 3.5 frankly and PF tried from its earliest days to make classes more fun, if not more even. PF to me is more user friendly as its the refinement of that system, and Power Creep can only be voided whenever PF ends its ongoing evolution (Paizo's gotta keep churning out fresh and cool material to reward/lure Players) and the system is retired.

I understand the DM capping rules like E6; it's simply another mode of play, so long as everyone that goes into that particular campaign knows the upper limit and can plan accordingly. I can run it myself; I'd simply have to limit the threats the PCs face because they may not get as many tools as they'd need to counter the increasingly technical enemies/environmental threats.

@Paradozen: I do have that view of Pixel Families when playing games (gives me an investment to both win and preserve my units).

Humanizing NPCs livens up the campaign from being a simple analog to video game RPGs, and when beaten enemies are begging for their lives/surrender/parley it helps sort out the Adventurers from the Murder-Hobos.

Placing Murder vs. Killing implications can either enrich or bog down your campaign, because without a hard corruption/ethics system that actually has effects (insanity, depravity) it's not going to hinder your resident psychopath. With most casuals, it's going to be an inconvenience that detracts from the appeal of combat. If they think they are the Good Guys they probably don't want to deal with the grayscale of morality regarding their actions.

The cheesiest moment I had of this was after subduing a Tyrannosaur in an arena-fight (they were captives, and everyone loves a Gladiator segue), the PCs were treated to the sight of a bawling adolescent girl running out into the bloody sands to prevent the Coup-de-Grace by directly appealing to them over the body of her dying T-Rex. The crowds cheered her and booed them. They weren't used to that, I could tell.

Regarding E6, I'd rather not give Players the illusion that they are being nerfed -DMs have plenty in the arsenal of the imagination to methodically reduce your proud adventurers into meek & beaten gimps (really the ultimate temptation).

I do enjoy it when one or two Players deliberately go the bad seed route because I can incorporate that into my narrative. It can galvanize the rest of the group (redemption or lynching) and its fun coming up with challenges/goals that would vex and drive an Evil PC.

Feel free to crucify me but Fighter's main draw to me is enough feats to create a one-or-two trick CMB pony specialized beyond what other Classes can hope to build. Vanilla combat-heavy campaign, with lackluster foes that do not take advantage of invisibility, teleport, DR, incorporeal, save-or-suck, flight, etc -yeah, Fighter is gonna be toe-to-toe with the Barbarian for raw numbers hitting the board. After all, he can infinite-cast "Sword" compared to the Cleric's precious prepared spell slots.

They have a use in the party (Vanguard DPS, out of combat, that Player may be twiddling his thumbs while the rest of the party are using skills), but Cleric is so versatile that I would take the Spell Level 1-9 Armored Medium-BAB Caster if we were picking teams over a plain Fighter. Just kidding: Oracle all the way!

C/MD is such a foolish debate -play what you love and play it to the best of your ability, not what someone dictates is META -let me toddle along with my sub-par concept that makes me smile! Unless Paizo is hosting PvP Olympics, it's a very moot point. The only thing worse than nerds fanboying together are nerds fanboying over whose Skub is better. Looking at it from the outside I'd want to beat myself up for being involved in the circlejerk.

Yeah, being fair I'd play a Fighter if the team needed one... I'd simply find a way to Archetype Stack out every class feature from it first.

I don't start horror campaigns -I shift the mood into survival horror gradually through the encounters and narrative. The lack of anticipation from the PCs and their Players adds gravitas when the nature of threats/environment transforms into creepy or grotesque.

It takes me some subtlety, but I know my Players have been immersed when PC paranoia is amped and the Players themselves are conspiring amongst each other whilst I await their next course of action as I develop the spiral into madness the magical fantasy adventure just devolved into.

The apex of this approach came when I simply began reading out the prompt for the next door they opened.

DM: "You hear fluttering-"
Players: "Eff no! Slam shut and double back to safe point now!"
DM: "Do you want to know wh-"
Players: "We know you're trying to kill us! We'll take our chances with what's behind us. We know we can damage it."

Fluttering. I love people's imagination and what they concoct given the right parameters.

I miss rolling dice for starting attributes.

Ditto, though I use point buy these days as a DM. Rolling has that additional appeal of chance (the dice decides fate), but I've seen a lot of butthurt result when Players see the gaps between themselves.

As a Player, I'd risk it just to get that chance (MVP or Baggage, I can RP both), but as a DM, Point Buy does help me keep the PCs on an even field and in the background does help me adjust threat to keep everyone in the Party engaged/challenged.

This thread was supposed to be about Fighters... and this argument kind of is a rebuttal against the OP statement seeing as people are in discord over other classes' features now.

Why are we quibbling about Rangers? I've joked about their Favored Enemy traits being "Fantasy RPG Racism Rewarded" with other PCs, particularly Rangers ^_^ and others who have acquired Favored Enemy, but it was always sarcastically delivered. Did not expect other people to get into such a fuss about it.

Ditto on Hatred, actually, I always trade that racial trait out for something else because I do not like my PCs having that in their stats. Mechanically, what are the odds of those being constant opponents, and Fluff, I don't have that much hate in my heart.

But the fighter doesn't shine at anything, it relies on feats and the hypothetical "full attack"... MAD, low skill points, few class skills, few class features that doesn't require begging the GM.

Wouldn't it be nice if it did, I suppose. I always viewed it as an intro class as applied to 3.5/PF. One to learn and branch out from. For newer players, I steer them towards other martials, after discussing with them what theyir preferred fighting style is and what they would like their PC to be capable of/resemble.

I'm messing around with archetype stacking now. Is there ANY combination of Fighter Archetypes that still synergizes with itself but swaps out literally ALL of Fighter's base traits. As in: Bravery, Armor Training, Weapon Training... I am willing to tolerate the mandatory fixed feats and losing Armor/Weapon Mastery. It would've been my riposte to their request. A Fighter that's not a Fighter anymore.

Hero Lab, awesome as it is, I don't think catches all the archetype overlap disqualifiers as I was so happy to stack Ustalavic Duelist, Dervish of Dawn, and Siegebreaker until I realized that they bumped unless it could be handwaved that the fixed level 1 feats consumed both a Fighter PCs starting feats at creation. It looks so dumb from a distance... aggro-rushing with a light blade single-handed. Makes me want to play one actually.

My character concept is a dandy thug. One who views himself as the classiest brute around. A gnarled fist wrapped over a filigreed wire-handled weapon of a gentleman. Mustache, vest, suspenders, pinstriped trousers, empty monocle, oxfords, and bowler hat optional. The meerschaum pipe is mandatory. "I'm your huckle-bearer."

It's been suggested before by some of my peers that I should just go play a Fighter instead of my typical 9-Spell Level Casters to mitigate the shenanigans my characters would employ not just with spells, but skills like Diplomancy, and yes, even Perform.

It wasn't until I got booted from that particular group that I realized that it had been a threat, not a suggestion.

Methinks Casters cause a wee bit more drama in terms of peer reaction and Fighter woes may come from Player disappointment that the baseline Martial may not have all the goodies it needs to shine across multiple spectrums outside of CMB and infinite-cast Full-Round Attack DPS.

Are the APs still being written and developed along those 15pt lines? If the developers say so, then shoot, I'll start building more 15pt characters to get a better feel. The lower the PB, the more difficult it will be for MAD builds to get their concept rolling up to their desired performance.

I understand when DMs allow higher PBs and compensate to counter those PBs. Some campaigns the DM and the Players may both want to see more effects on the table (the more points, the faster and more varied the unlocks), never-mind the poor efficiency that they are essentially getting the same type of experience but with more dice and math involved. I like both high and low campaigns equally. I'll take the highest the DM will allow me and hit the board running with it gleefully.

To keep everyone on a fair board, and being honest: avoiding butthurt and jealousy among Players, I employ PB in PF myself, typically 20 (High Fantasy "hey look, you guys ARE special"), and enjoyed it when in 3.5, DMs would grant 25. I've met Players that were happy with low rolls so long as they got to adventure, and I've also seen some beg and wheedle for more rolls even with three 16s showing, but not a single 18. PB fixes that gap, where I get to bump those up I think are too low versus their peers, and smite the reroll shenanigans where someone whines if they don't have two 18s before their character is built.

I run the gamut from meatheads (we're grunts) stopping by and discovering they like roleplaying, closet nerds who've wanted to get in, and hardcore munchkins and veteran casuals alike. That is a broad range of players for me to manage, and I try to stick to conventions like Point Buy to simplify character creation and campaign management.

Dang, I digressed!

TLDR; Repeated instances of Developers stating that they designed with 15 Point Buy in mind.

Work on prompts. Short, powerful images that serve as anchoring waypoints. If you can bridge between them and flesh the story further over time, good, if you can't, they become side projects that can be added to later.

No matter how dissatisfied you are with your work: SAVE!

I fell away from writing due to other hobbies becoming my leisure; my creative side (maliciously mischievous) comes out when I DM for people, as well as when I am a PC. Concepts haunt me across campaigns, and the fun struggle is to keep doing new things and allowing character concepts and arcs continue over multiple characters and other people's stories as I bridge my character over to their realm and others'.

Asking the players nicely for at least one person to prioritize a Handy Haversack or a Bag of Holding as their first major purchase (my campaigns start these days at Level 1). I've advised parties before that if they insist on medium and heavy loads I will plug in the modifiers accordingly. Dropping your backpack at the beginning of every fight is another tactic I've dissuaded as well whenever players get too complacent...

Thankfully, one of my Players has granted me, and allows me to continue using one of his extra Hero Lab license-uses (mine own I use for 3.5) for Pathfinder, and I use that tool to track everyone in the party that wants to have the DM manage their sheet (the whole party in one package basically), and it tracks quite faithfully all items and notates what load status every PC is at.

If you want to simulate extra campaign stuff, create an overhead cost paid as upkeep, daily, weekly, or whenever, that would cover mundane stuff such as secure transport/storage of materials, and other things like tracking lodging, food, etc. Most Players aren't hardcore enough to specify their exact level of desired lodging and nutrition -for those that are, feel free to task them with tallying their own expenditures.

I try to focus on plot, and not tangent the group with petty haggling... unless that seems to be what they want to do at the time.

You ain't alone TOZ! Serving two masters now technically ^_^.

Pharasma's faith could give them a common ground, even though I view Oracles deriving their divine spells through their mysteries, and not always deities.

Immune to magic eh? Never stopped me as a mage.

"Well played DM, but I bet they aren't immune to PHYSICS!"

If 20 point is still too rich for you to cope with from your Players, then consider going even leaner with 15. Barring that, so long as you give them fair, but not excessive loot (try sticking to base values instead of demands they may make of you), and asking, maybe privately, what their intentions are in purchase of magic items. The Munchkin part of me is cussing my DM side out right now in my mind.

Is it control or challenge that you seek to maintain in your campaign regarding your PCs? Even if they had low attributes, barring entry restriction on feats, etc, an optimized build could still turn the humble (no CvsM here ^_^) fighter into a bestiary-wrecking powerhouse and the ubiquitous prepared caster a la Wizard could always bypass narrative with the right Batman-Gambit spell selection for the day.

In a point buy, think of it this way, the Player would choose for a hole/weakness to develop in their character in order to maximize their potential in their SaD/MaD concept. If someone chose to spend the what, 17 points to raise base value to 18, and of course choose a race for a further 2 increase to 20, a la +5 at Level 1 (and some races like Goblin can even get +6 to DEX at start), then they did so at significant penalty/hindrance to their remaining stats. I personally play with at least one stat at 8 or even 7 in my point-buy arrays; this player would seriously have to consider two "dump" stats just to have a middling secondary ability score in their backup field.

You wish to encourage "moderate" ability scores, which I presume would be +2->+3 at Level 1? Then try enforcing more rules... track weight for example to encourage spellcasters to not throw away all their Strength. Your Martials insist on min-maxing their physical vs cerebral stats? Employ more social ability/professional rolls during roleplaying segments.

I don't know if your passively-aggressively trying to curb your Players power curve, and I do not mean to come at you accusingly, however, just inform your Players to treat you kindly as you try to give everyone a fun experience running APs till you become more confident in your own abilities. The ones you would wish to keep will accomodate you, and you get to learn how to be ruthless towards the ones that still choose to try and bumrush your gaming enjoyment. DMs need to have their fun too instead of being a chef serving up punching-bag NPCs to feed Player ego.

That being said -I switched from homebrew to APs btw ^_^- good choice to start with APs. I believe that Paizo crafts excellent adventures that are well balanced and enjoyable. Personally, I choose to use them only as "guidelines/waypoints" and let the PCs naturally run amok within the setting until they find their way and get back on the plot's track.

In summary: I let the Players build within the system, and let them reap the rewards and repercussions of their construction choices.

As Gestalt, this'd be a lot of fun since your Eidolon wouldn't fall too far back to the equivalent threats you would face, and the two of you could be Wombo-Combo bros juggling opponents together. The synergy is nice because the Eidolon would help enable your sneaks to land, especially if your Eidolon wasn't DPS-focused as much as a CMB-wrecking machine.

The image I get from this is akin to those Naruto fighting games. Complete with the unnecessary internal and vocal monologues taking place throughout the fight between yourself, your Eidolon, and the enemies.

Heighten Spell. It's a variable-tic MF, and boost that DC to the level you choose to bump up to.

Um... with the exception of the lance and the figurine, you are a Magical Rapierist. To be fair, however, at some point the Winged Hussars did employ Estocs, which are a very loose earlier analog to the rapier (in this case punching through armor and not just flesh).

Winged Hussars evolved through Light and Heavy forms of cavalry in Poland's history as a Cavalry power. Celestial Armor could mimic the fabricated wings the Hussars wore, but the Cavalier's Banner fulfills that metaphor and occupies the same slot to boot.

"Winged Dragoon" may be a more appropriate way to describe your concept; yours is already well thought up of, and boy do I miss that 25pt buy from 3.5 days ^_^.

So... Arcane? Choosing to disregard the diss towards Divine Casters...

Hate to be unoriginal, but 3rd Level Fireball is just so easy-to-use and easily accessible (you get it quickly enough to actually enjoy most of your campaign's duration) that it's typically a strong choice, even if it targets typically the easiest Save. It does fall into the trap of linear growth and isn't as immediately lethal to more powerful threats out there as other Save-or-Suck Spells, but it has a place in my heart for how consistent it is.

Damn! Welp, I have to own that mistake. Thanks for the enlightenment Weirdo... funny enough that link is exactly what I was reading from then ^_^

There I was: "Crafting is eezy! Tink-tink-tink..."