GM Ever_Anon's The Midnight Mirror

Game Master Ever_Anon

Good catch everyone! I was just, uh, testing you. Definitely didn’t forget to check if Glitterdust was susceptible to SR, no siree Bob.

To speed up the shopping (unless you want to roleplay it out), there is a 75% chance of any individual item 400gp or less being available. You can make your lists here in discussion, roll to see if they’re purchasable, and discuss alternatives if not. Does that sound good to everyone?

Sounds good but we also have the issue of working on a budget. I'm sure most of the PCs were built with most, if not all, of their starting gold spent. So we'll need to see which items from the Loot will be sold/traded for the various items we need.

Grappled creatures are also easier to see... Kind of.

Quote:

A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.

But yeah Faerie Fire is not as good as Glitterdust. Darn Wizards getting all the good stuff!

@Xanther: I can prepare 2 See Invisibility spells, and a 3rd if I drop Cat's Grace but I feel like that one may be useful for raw numbers.

I don't have as much PFS experience as others here but I know there are all kinds of archetypes which force tradeoffs for class abilities. I mention that because, according to Archives of Nethys, Glitterdust is a 2nd level spell for Witches. So we could buy one (or more) scrolls of Glitterdust and Ussaile could use them.

Sounds good but we also have the issue of working on a budget. I'm sure most of the PCs were built with most, if not all, of their starting gold spent. So we'll need to see which items from the Loot will be sold/traded for the various items we need.

You'll get the standard 50% value for anything you sell, (aka what's listed on the loot sheet). That candle of truth is worth quite a bit :)

Noctifer Umbria wrote:

Sounds good but we also have the issue of working on a budget. I'm sure most of the PCs were built with most, if not all, of their starting gold spent. So we'll need to see which items from the Loot will be sold/traded for the various items we need.

You'll get the standard 50% value for anything you sell, (aka what's listed on the loot sheet). That candle of truth is worth quite a bit :)

Yes it is. :) It could have some use in the module but, again, this comes down to what do we want to keep vs. what do we want to sell. And some of that is influenced by what and how much we're buying.

Sorry all, it turned out to be Covid which flattened me for a few days. Catching up now, looks like I missed a lot!

Sorry all, it turned out to be Covid which flattened me for a few days. Catching up now, looks like I missed a lot!

Yikes at least you're better! We can take turns with the bicycle air pump to unflatten you if need be. ;)

"How about this item?"

Noctifer presents the Bottled Sunshine.

Bottled Sunshine is created using the daylight spell so it is of a high enough level to work normally in the middle of a darkness spell. However the item only creates bright light "in its square." I'm inclined to think that it would not affect the light levels outside that square (since light spells/items are usually very specific about the radius in which they are effective).

I am not a rules expert by any means (*coughGlitterdustSRcough*) so does that sound right to people or do you think there's another interpretation? It's a niche magic item and I'm not seeing anyone online talk about this particular interaction.

That seems correct. It can counter darkness, but only in 1 square.

We could have Ussaile tie the bottled sunshine to her hair's end, and then grapple the Blighter with it.

At 375gp, a scroll of Daylight seems more cost effective then a bunch of Darkvision potions, which cost 300gp each.

I am also not a rule expert but the above reasoning makes sense and suggests that the bottled sunshine is not our panacea.

If Daylight requires an opposed check to counter the Darkness then I would prefer the Darkvision potions, if only because they don't need you to be lucky - they just work.

For Glitterdust, remember that what made it work vs Ilquis was that we knew where to target it; we're going to need See Invisibility as well (apologies if that point's already been raised, I know I missed a fair bit; but it's important enough to be worth raising twice).

I am also not a rule expert but the above reasoning makes sense and suggests that the bottled sunshine is not our panacea.

If Daylight requires an opposed check to counter the Darkness then I would prefer the Darkvision potions, if only because they don't need you to be lucky - they just work.

For Glitterdust, remember that what made it work vs Ilquis was that we knew where to target it; we're going to need See Invisibility as well (apologies if that point's already been raised, I know I missed a fair bit; but it's important enough to be worth raising twice).

Replying to both players; this is the spell description for Daylight:

Daylight

This is the relevant portion:
"Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.

Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness."

So it would dispel the Darkness. But! at the risk of giving our GM "Evil Ideas" (tm) in ye olden days of 3.5 in Living Greyhawk and Living Arcanis there were creatures like the Lamp Blighter and what they would do is take advantage of the reverse of the text in Daylight and, since they cast Darkness at will, it would take it 2 rounds to make the area magically dark - again. Now that likely means 2 rounds of standard actions but, since it's a flier, that's not as big of a disadvantage as it would be if it were ground based. It's a very well picked monster since it has two difficult to overcome (at L4) means of defending itself.

I think we players should start by agreeing on what we want to sell from the loot, what we want to keep, so we know how much we have to spend. Then decide what items to buy.
Another 'cheap item', just to throw this in there, that I'd advise buying (because it's a weird rule area) are Nightdrops.

I've put the Loot List into a spreadsheet. I took out the Wand of CLW and the Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds. I left in both the +1 Dagger and the Wand of Dominate Person; we can decide to 'pull' items from the list if we wish. If we keep the +1 Dagger and Wand of Dominate in the 'sell' pile we'd have 4,424.3 GP to work with.
If we remove the +1 Dagger, the total is 3,272.3.
If we remove the +1 Dagger and the Wand of Dominate, the total is 2,372.3.
If we remove the Wand of Dominate, the total is 3,523.3.

I'd say sell the wand and the dagger to use the cash.

I agree that if the daylight bottle only gives a 5' square then specific rules trump general rules.

If the blighter can cast darkness at will then darkvision is far superior to daylight, obviously but there it is.

Since the blighter can fly, a few tanglefoot bags would be great and that gets to why I was recommending taking some huntsmen with nets. They may get lucky if it gets low enough.

I won't be around until tomorrow night.
On a staycation this week.

I'd say sell the wand and the dagger to use the cash.

I agree that if the daylight bottle only gives a 5' square then specific rules trump general rules.

If the blighter can cast darkness at will then darkvision is far superior to daylight, obviously but there it is.

Since the blighter can fly, a few tanglefoot bags would be great and that gets to why I was recommending taking some huntsmen with nets. They may get lucky if it gets low enough.

The +1 Dagger is the last thing I'd sell unless every PC has a magical weapon. As the undead shadows showed anyone without a magical weapon could be up the creek without a paddle.

This is the relevant portion:

"Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.

Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness."

There is an ambiguity here, on whether multiple castings of Darkness stack when there is a Daylight spell present. Specifically, Darkness states that: "This spell does not stack with itself."

Interpretation 1: Darkness does not stack with itself, even when Daylight is present. Darkness + Daylight = ambient light levels. And additional castings of Darkness do not shift this any further, since there is already 1 casting of Darkness in the area.

Interpretation 2: Darkness + Daylight = ambient light levels. And then after that an additional casting of Darkness shifts the light level down 1 step again. Additional castings beyond this do not stack.

*****

Perhaps we should see if we can pay Miklos to cast Cleric Continual Flame on our behalf. As the duration is permanent, we can get it cast in town, and then carry it into the forest.

The reason being that Continual Flame does not have this line which Daylight has: "Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect."

So when Continual Flame is brought into an area of Darkness, then according to Darkness: "Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness." As Darkness is Level 2, then Clerical Continual Flame at Level 3 would clearly trump it.

I would go with interpretation 1. Daylight + Darkness = Ambient Light, but both spells are still technically active. Another casting of Darkness would have no effect.

A third level Continual Flame would work but you'd have a hard time getting Miklos to cast it for you right now. Currently all his third level spell slots are dedicated to Remove Disease. You'd have to convince him that Dag is a more immediate threat than tallowthroat and the potential undead shadows that might appear from tallowthroat victims.

FYI (and Nadia would know this) lamp blighters can't actually fly. They have wings but no fly speed. Sorry, I realize now the picture was misleading but it was the best one I could find.

very nice

I would go with interpretation 1. Daylight + Darkness = Ambient Light, but both spells are still technically active. Another casting of Darkness would have no effect.

A third level Continual Flame would work but you'd have a hard time getting Miklos to cast it for you right now. Currently all his third level spell slots are dedicated to Remove Disease. You'd have to convince him that Dag is a more immediate threat than tallowthroat and the potential undead shadows that might appear from tallowthroat victims.

FYI (and Nadia would know this) lamp blighters can't actually fly. They have wings but no fly speed. Sorry, I realize now the picture was misleading but it was the best one I could find.

The problem with interpretation 1 is this section which is in both the descriptions for Daylight and Darkness:

I would go with interpretation 1. Daylight + Darkness = Ambient Light, but both spells are still technically active. Another casting of Darkness would have no effect.

Alright, in that case a scroll of Daylight should be able to counter Darkness. Beyond that, I'm guessing any additional magical light will have no effect? If so, we need to get a bunch of mundane light sources like torches.

The problem with interpretation 1 is this section which is in both the descriptions for Daylight and Darkness:

"This spell does not stack with itself. Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level. "
So they wouldn't "stack" since they "dispel" the spell of lower or equal level.

Darkness is Level 2. Daylight is Level 3. Daylight is higher level, so no matter how many times you cast Darkness, you cannot use it to dispel Daylight. You can only overlap the area, in which case ambient light levels take effect, as per the Daylight description and Interpretation 1.

FYI (and Nadia would know this) lamp blighters can't actually fly. They have wings but no fly speed. Sorry, I realize now the picture was misleading but it was the best one I could find.

Well, that makes things much simpler. I guess the wings are decorative, like an ostrich.

Buy List:

Scroll of Daylight (375gp), on both Oracle and Bard spell list, so either Xanther or Noctifer can attempt to activate this. I'm leaning toward Xanther carrying it and casting on Ussaile on round 1, so that Noctifer is free to cast Glitterdust. Ussaile can stay on the Blighter's tail, and hold it down.

Scroll of Remove Fear (25gp), carried by Noctifer in case he has to unfear Xanther (if anybody else is feared, Xanther can unfear them).

Mundane Light Source (torches are 1cp each). Since these are pretty cheap, even if your character has darkvision, consider carrying one of these anyway, so you can illuminate the Blighter for our nightblind archer, Jassminder.

Potion of Darkvision (from Nadia). Either Ussaile or Jassminder, since their DPS/grapple is better than Xanther's piddly melee. I think Jassminder should carry it. But if we have to find the Blighter at night, then Ussaile needs it more, and Jassminder can pass it to her.

I'm not sure if there are any means of countering Sleep arrows. Xanther is immune, but everyone else seems vulnerable, especially those with a low Will save. I suppose whoever is nearby will just have to awaken the sleeper.

Xanther will buy 5 Cold Iron crossbow bolts for 1 gp, in case he has to shoot the Blighter.

The problem with interpretation 1 is this section which is in both the descriptions for Daylight and Darkness:

"This spell does not stack with itself. Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level. "
So they wouldn't "stack" since they "dispel" the spell of lower or equal level.
You're the GM and the interpretation you're going with is better for the PCs. Since the Lamp Blighter doesn't fly that takes away that advantage; it wouldn't make sense for it to sit there and spend extra standard actions to make it dark again.

I don't think the daylight/darkness would dispel each other unless they were cast on the same object. From the "Vision and Light" section of the rules:

"There are many ways to misinterpret the “counter or dispel” text for light and darkness spells. Here’s how that particular rule actually works. To counter a spell of the opposing descriptor, you ready an action just like any other counterspell. Just as normal for counterspell, the target of the spell must be within range (which, without Reach Spell metamagic, is touch for most light and darkness spells). If the target is in range, you automatically counter the opposing spell and it has no effect, just like always for counterspell. To dispel, you simply cast your spell on the same target (just like with enlarge person and reduce person) and then they cancel each other out, leaving no spell. Again, the range is usually touch and the target is the object that radiates the darkness or light; you can’t just touch an arbitrary spot within the darkness or light."

Alright, in that case a scroll of Daylight should be able to counter Darkness. Beyond that, I'm guessing any additional magical light will have no effect? If so, we need to get a bunch of mundane light sources like torches.

That is true. Here's the relevant paragraph from the same section:

"If no other light spell is sufficient to overcome the darkness spells in the overlapping area, and if there is a daylight spell active in the overlapping area, the daylight spell’s special negation clause kicks in (regardless of the spell level of daylight and the darkness spell; it just works, always). This means that you negate all the magical light changes in the area and bring it back to prevailing conditions. As a side effect of negating the magical darkness, those nonmagical light sources activate again (while they are not ambient, they were still part of prevailing conditions). Other magical light sources still are not active in the area; they had their chance to attempt to negate the darkness spells and didn’t, so they were not part of the prevailing light conditions, instead subsumed by daylight’s more powerful special negation clause."

Potions of Darkvision are 300 GP so we should spring for at least 2 of them, one each for Jassminder and Ussaile.

Nightdrops are 250 GP but that's for 5 doses and gives low-light vision for 1 hour.

If you want a 'cheap' mundane light source just go for a Sunrod. They're only 2 GP each, don't have to worry about them going out or irritating the fey in the forest by having fire.

I think Cold Iron has to be bought at the same rate as regular ammo so you'd need to spend 2 GP but get 10 bolts. Noctifer has 40 cold iron bolts if you're worried about spending coin.

If we don't sell the (+1 Str) Shortbow, Noctifer is proficient with it but I'd need to buy some cold iron arrows for it.

I think both Tanglefoot and Tangleburn bags are worth the 50 GP and 200 GP respectively. Tangleburn's fire should eliminate it's ability to 'hide' from us targeting it with Glitterdust or something similar. Or give Ussaile a chance to grapple it since she'll know what square it's in.

I could use some cold iron daggers for ranged attacks. Figure I would open with a tanglefoot or tangleburn bag. As soon as I can close I will.

Hmm... I think Xanther will need both hands free, one to hold his weapon, and the other to cast. So I'll spring for a Miner's lantern. I've got some oil sitting around anyway.

Does anybody else have any inputs?

Anyone who doesn't have a cold iron weapon should buy one (or ammo for a bow/crossbow) and possibly scrolls of Magic Weapon since they're relatively cheap.

We might also want to see if anyone has this:
Holy Weapon Balm

And maybe scrolls of Protection from Evil in case we have additional undead shadows to fight.

I have 4 uses of holy weapon balm, a MW cold iron dagger, and a +1 waveblade. I can share the holy weapon balm with those who need it. I have the cash so i will buy 6 cold iron daggers for throwing.

Let's work on a finalized list and hopefully have it done by the end of the weekend?

I can cast Prot from Evil if needed. I also have 3 scrolls of Magic Weapon and 2 Holy Weapon Balms.

There are also generic forest enemies to consider, like hungry animals and maybe swarms. The animals we can probably handle. For the swarms, I suggest everyone carry some Alchemist Fire or Oil flasks.

Updated Buy List

Scroll of Daylight (375gp), on both Oracle and Bard spell list, so either Xanther or Noctifer can attempt to activate this. I'm leaning toward Xanther carrying it and casting on Ussaile on round 1, so that Noctifer is free to cast Glitterdust. Ussaile can stay on the Blighter's tail, and hold it down.

Scroll of Remove Fear (25gp), carried by Noctifer in case he has to unfear Xanther (if anybody else is feared, Xanther can unfear them).

Potion of Darkvision (from Nadia): Jassminder, reserve it in case daylight fails.

Potion of Darkvision (300gp): Ussaile, ditto

6 Cold Iron Daggers (4gp each = 24 gp total): Marcus, for throwing

Sun Rods x6 (2gp each = 12 gp total): 2 each to Ussaile, Marcus and Noctifer

Miner's lantern (15gp): Xanther needs both hands free to hold his weapon in one, and cast with the other.

Tangleburn bags (200 GP): Ussaile, round 1 attack to highlight the Blighter

Tanglefoot (50 GP): Who wants to carry this?

Noctifer is good at ranged attacks so he can carry either the Tanglefoot or Tangleburn bag. I'd say at least two of each of those just in case; the Tanglefoot bag is quite useful even at this level.
Does Jasminder have cold iron arrows?
I'd also recommend items like Holy Weapon Balm in case we face more shadows of the undead variety.

Jassminder has cold iron arrows, and her smite evil bypasses DR entirely :)

I think we have what we need, let's go kill a fey! I don't want to get bogged down in planning (shame we can't just Flashback to acquiring what we need...)

So, should we roll for what's available?

So, should we roll for what's available?

I would prefer if a player feels an item on the loot sheet is necessary for his PC that they claim it. If they don't 'need' it hopefully we can put it in the community pool to purchase items for use.

I don't need any of the items we found.

Ideally I'd like to hear from Ussaile but we haven't heard from her in a bit so not sure how long we want to wait.

I posted in gameplay a while back. I've been waiting to roll.

Assault the beast, woohoo!

Hopefully the formatting isn't too hideous. Here's what I have so far:

Items Sold Value Sale Value
Bag of Gold – Upfront 250
Lock Box Gold 65.3
Candle of Truth 2500 1250
Studded Leather Armor [2] 50 25
Masterwork Chain Shirt 250 125
Dagger [4] 8 4
MW Shortsword 310 155
Composite Shortbow (+1 Str) 150 75
Wand of Dominate Person 1800 900
Bag of Gold 2 348
3197.3

Items Purchased Quantity Cost
Scroll of Daylight 1 375
Scroll of Remove Fear 1 25
Potion of Darkvision 2 600
Cold Iron Daggers 6 24
Sun Rods 6 12
Tanglefoot Bag 2 100
Tangleburn Bag 2 400
Nightdrops 1 250
Ioun Torch 1 75
1861

So we've sold just under 3,200 GP worth of stuff and purchased 1,861 GP worth of stuff.
I didn't include the +1 Dagger in the sale items; I can't remember who had it but someone didn't have a magic weapon?
I also pulled the Scroll of Continual Flame; it's on the Oracle spell list and, while L3, Xanther can activate it by rolling at least 2 on a CL check.
Xanther: I subbed out the Miner's Lamp for an Ioun Torch since the Ioun Torch doesn't need fuel. If you want Xanther to have the Miner's Lamp we have plenty of coin to spare.
In fact the group has 1,336.3 GP remaining if anyone wants to purchase anything else.
Marcus suggested nets?

Xanther: I subbed out the Miner's Lamp for an Ioun Torch since the Ioun Torch doesn't need fuel. If you want Xanther to have the Miner's Lamp we have plenty of coin to spare.

Regrettably, the Ioun Torch uses L2 Continual Flame, so it won't function in a Daylight/Darkness overlap zone. I'd need a Miner's Lamp as a mundane light source.

Yeah, I have an Ioun Torch and we've already had confirmation from the GM (in-game, no less) that it's not going to help us.

I think Marcus has the +1 dagger but can't find the relevant post.

I think we're getting bogged down on equipment and need to move the game forward.

Someone offered it to me and I can carry it but I already have a +1 Waveblade. If someone else is in need of a magical weapon, they should take it.

Yeah, I have an Ioun Torch and we've already had confirmation from the GM (in-game, no less) that it's not going to help us.

I think Marcus has the +1 dagger but can't find the relevant post.

I think we're getting bogged down on equipment and need to move the game forward.

I agree. I would like to move forward before we lose all momentum.

Then let's go.

So who are we waiting on?

So who are we waiting on?

Apparently no one.

I am very sorry for my sudden disappearance. I ended up in the hospital unexpectedly and was in no shape to post. I'm still recovering but doing much better now.

It's going to take a bit for me to catch up but I should be able to move you all forward either today or tomorrow.

No need to rush. Take care of yourself first.

I am very sorry for my sudden disappearance. I ended up in the hospital unexpectedly and was in no shape to post. I'm still recovering but doing much better now.

It's going to take a bit for me to catch up but I should be able to move you all forward either today or tomorrow.

Like Xanther said take your time and focus on getting better.

No worries, glad you are on the mend.

Glad you are still with us! Take the time you need to recover.

Yikes!

Any hours-per-level spells could have been cast before you left.

Currently the party is about half a mile away from where you're trying to end up. Following the stream will get you there but would require going right past the shadow mastiff. If you don't want to fight you could always try to sneak past and/or leave the stream behind to look for a different path. (To name a couple options.)