Usual stuff here please:
Player name
Character name
Character level
PFS number
Faction
Progression speed
Day job
We begin when Outpost kicks off. You may dot and delete in Gameplay.
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I am looking forward to the game with you GM supervillan!
Also great opportunity for Dana to return to Minata as she has the ‘Wayang Spellhunter‘ trait.
Player name Noral
Character name[/b Dana Katsu
[b]Character level[/b 5
[b]PFS number 314670-12
Faction Liberty’s edge
Progression speed normal
Day job
Feel free to join Mishka in some early roleplay over in Gameplay folks :)
The scenario begins in Tian Xia, in Dtang Ma’s capital city Ramparassad.
I'll be getting us underway shortly :)
Mishka looks like the only full BAB PC.
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I like the vigilante talent Companion to the Lonely for its iconic James Bond-like thematics, fitting to Krieger's understated international-man-of-mystery persona.
In role-play, I keep it tactful, mindful of the broad spectrum of player sensitivities in the community. Though not called for, I roll a Diplomacy check to give the GM some sense of Krieger's chances of success, and - if successful - also to ply his companion for information in a situation like this.
As far as its mechanical benefits are concerned, there are better talents available. I chose this for the fluff and for the challenge of making it work without offending anyone.
Oh, and he has a boon that might help explain his natural skill.
Giant-blooded is a mostly-useless trait, but it complements his backstory nicely. Physically, he deals with it by wearing loose-fitting pants. ;-)
That is a great explanation for the Talent. Puts it in a different light. Works well.
"Loose pants" :-O
So, if Dana takes Ilyamakano that would mean Hayden takes Tiqa and Dale takes Whaoxi.
That leaves Mishka and Tenibri to decide between Lai Ligau and Nobali Hohachi.
If any of the other heroes fit better, Tenibri, do feel free to discuss with the others. But don't worry too much about your choices.
None of the 'heroic spirits' are really very much oriented to primary casters when it comes to combat, nor to ranged combat for that matter.
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The Foreigner takes up position behind one of the barricades. Your Power Attack penalty is -2 now I think - base attack +5, correct? Also you are under Bull's Strength.
Thanks for reminding me, GM. I'd just leveled up, and had forgotten Power Attack advanced with a BAB of +5. Yes, the attack penalty is -2, and the corresponding Shield of Blades shield bonus is therefore +2, if Krieger power attacks.
And thanks for reminding me of the buffs, bless and bull's strength.
I didn't realize the dark brown 5ft lines were barricades. If it's all right with you, I'll adjust Krieger's position 5ft to the south. (His intent was to get close enough to charge. Standing behind a barricade would prevent a charge.)
The adjusted attack bonus would be +11 for his readied attack.
All good Mishka.
There's a lot of background work for the debate, which uses the Verbal Duel rules from Ultimate Intrigue with some amendments. I will be keeping as much of this behind the scenes as possible in order to let us focus on the roleplay.
It might be Monday or Tuesday before I get the debate event started in Gameplay.
Vlazis are you purchasing that Headband of Alluring Charisma?
Turns out you won't have to wait all that long for the debate - I'd done most of the prep already, and there are great tools on the pfs gmprep website.
There is a lot to explain though - but I will try to keep it as succinct as possible.
I have posted a link at the top of the page, entitled "debate worksheets" - if you click on this link you can download a pdf with a summary of the special rules that apply in the debate, and your own skills as they apply in the debate.
Here are the verbal duel / debate basics:
The debate works a bit like a combat. Each side has a pool called "Determination" which is analogous to hit points. Once your Determination runs out you have lost.
The debate proceeds as a back and forth between the two sides. The opening side chooses a Tactic, makes their speech ie roleplays ;) and makes a skill roll. The result of this roll sets the DC for the responding side's skill roll - who choose their own Tactic to respond with. Each time a roll succeeds an "Ante" is increased. When a roll fails, the side that fails takes "damage" - their Determination is reduced by whatever the Ante value is.
You can spend "Edges" if you have them to reroll a skill check. You can spend any number of Edges on the same check (unlike other types of reroll) as long as they are applicable.
That's really all there is to it. But, there are several pages of notes in the form of player handouts if you want to read them. I have added them to the Slides (Slides 6, 7, 8, 9). Please don't feel like you have to read and understand everything on those slides! I will guide you through the debate.
There is one thing that you do need to do in advance of the debate, and that is to use your worksheet to assign skills to tactics. This works as follows:
For each tactic there are up to four possible skills that could be used. You must use the skill with the highest bonus. But, you can only assign any given skill to one tactic. This will mean that you might not be able to use every tactic. For example, if your Diplomacy is the highest bonus skill you have, you can only assign it to Flattery or Rhetoric and you won't be able to use the other tactic. Try to make sure that you do assign a skill to whichever tactic I have ringed on your worksheet.
If you have any questions please ask away. I'll move us on to the debate once you've all had a chance to look over your worksheets. (These sheets came from the pfs gmprep site).
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Thanks a lot GM for the preparation and calculations! Lots of work!
I hope I am doing this right. I looked at each category and chose a skill in which I had the highest bonus. When I had the same bonus with several skills in the same category then I had the freedom to chose, right?
I still do not understand why some skills have edge and others do not.
* * *
Here we go based on the PDF for Dana:
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Allegory: kn(religion) +2, Edge: 0
Baiting: Bluff +2, Edge: 3
Emotional Appeal: Sense Motive +2, Edge: 0
Flattery: Diplomacy +2, Edge: 0
Logic: kn(arcana) +6, Edge: 0
Mockery: --- Not possible as Bluff already chosen
Presence: kn(nobility) +2, Edge: 0
Red Herring: --- Not possible as Bluff already chosen
Rhetoric: --- Not possible as Linguistics already chosen
Wit: Linguistics +6, Edge: 0
Dana had a bit of a complication. She has the 'student of philosophy' trait, which does not apply to every Diplomacy and Bluff check. For the purpose of verbal duel rules, INT never applies to any skill check, it's always CHA. But where Student of Philosophy would apply to a tactic (ie, it is outright lying (Bluff) or it's persuasion (Diplomacy)) the bonus that you would gain is converted to Edge on a 1/3 basis.
By the way, it looks like I made an error Dana: your Diplomacy bonus should be +6, with 2 Edge applicable to Rhetoric but not Flattery. Your Bluff Edge (where it applies) is also 2, not 3.
The way that the skill bonuses are calculated is fixed: ranks + class skill bonus + CHA mod. Any other bonus that would normally apply to your check is converted to Edge.
Dale is a good example: he has Improved Improvisation and a Lesser Circlet of Persuasion. Neither applies to the skill bonus calculation used in verbal duels, but that's a +6 to any skill he has no ranks in, which is converted to 2 Edge.
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Thanks GM! Adapted below:
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Allegory: kn(religion) +2, Edge: 0
Baiting: Bluff +2, Edge: 2
Emotional Appeal: Sense Motive +2, Edge: 0
Flattery: Not possible as Diplomacy already chosen
Logic: kn(arcana) +6, Edge: 0
Mockery: --- Not possible as Bluff already chosen
Presence: kn(nobility) +2, Edge: 0
Red Herring: --- Not possible as Bluff already chosen
Rhetoric: --- Diplomacy +6, Edge: 2
Wit: Linguistics +6, Edge: 0
Anything that gives a bonus but isn't directly boosting your CHA modifier can give Edges: 1 Edge per 3 points of bonus. So Heroism on its own will do nothing, but Heroism plus, say, a Trait bonus on your skill will translate to +1 Edge.
(Enhanced Diplomacy is fine for this, Vlazis)
Don't worry too much Dale - you are supposed to lose this debate - albeit whilst looking good.
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Ok, Hayden is better at this than I would have assumed because he gets to use Charisma for all the bonuses. However, since you can only assign one skill to each tactic, he just doesn't have that many good skills to go around. I've tried to put his better skills into tactics that others seem to be low in. That seems like the right things to do to give the team higher bonus options for each tactics. We get to choose who responds to each exchange, right?
What is the circle around one of the tactics?
Allegory: Knowledge, Religion +6
Baiting: Perform, Comedy +2
Emotional Appeal: Sense Motive +7
Flattery: Bluff +2
Logic: Knowledge, Local +2
Mockery: Intimidate: +2
Presence: Knowledge, Nobility +7
Red Herring: Perform, Oratory +2
Rhetoric: Diplomacy +6
Wit: Linguistics +2
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Thanks, GM, for all the work on this. Much appreciated. Everything below is the result of my own clumsy and confused attempt at due diligence.
Krieger has no spells available or items equipped that enhance his CHA; however, he has the Persuasive and Tribal Scars (Bearpelt) feats. The former provides a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks, and the latter provides a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
The Vigilante social talent Social Grace grants Krieger a +4 circumstance bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate checks.
The Vigilante social talent Ancestral Enlightenment grants Krieger a +4 untyped bonus on any knowledge check in which he has at least 1 rank. It doesn't make it a class skill, but would it provide some Edge for such Knowledge skills?
When calculating Edge, do we round up or down? It looks like Krieger has 6/3 Diplomacy for Edge 2 and 8/3 Intimidate for Edge 2.67.
Krieger also has a 'Morale Pool' of 1 from his Vigilante talent Companion of the Lonely, which can be spent as an immediate action to roll a CHA-based skill check again after rolling the die but before learning the consequences; he must take the second result, even if it's lower.
I'm not sure if it's applicable, but were our opponents to use Intimidate against Krieger, his Vigilante special ability Unshakable grants +5 (Ex) to the DC of foes attempting Intimidate checks against him.
For the purposes of the debate's verbal duel, every check is CHA-based. Krieger's CHA mod is only +1. With just one rank in Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive, his bonus for each is the same, +5. (You calculated his Intimidate mod as +7.) Does Edge break a tie between 2 or more skills? Does wearing the mask of Nobali Hohachi confer any benefit/penalty to any of the checks?
Regarding the team effort, should we try to make sure at least one of us covers each of the tactics to avoid 'forfeiting' a win to our opponents? Kreiger can switch to other tactics to help cover some the team hasn't chosen, even if they're not necessarily his in-character preferred choices.
Some of Krieger's options look worse, when I followed the rules you laid out on the worksheet:
When assigning skills to tactics, you must choose the associated skill with the highest bonus.
Your bonus in a skill is equal to: skill ranks + class skill bonus (3) + Charisma modifier.
Allegory: Knowledge (religion) +2 (Edge 0)
Baiting: Sense Motive +5
Emotional Appeal: Bluff +5 (Edge 0)
Flattery: Diplomacy +6 (Edge 2)
Logic: Knowledge (local) +6 (Edge 0)
Mockery: NA
Presence: Intimidate +5 (Edge 2 or 3?)
Red Herring: NA
Rhetoric: NA
Wit: Linguistics +2 (Edge 0)
Hayden: the meaning of the circled tactic will become clear ;)
You might or might not get to decide who responds to each exchange - it will depend if an argument is directed at a specific 'hero' or not.
You effectively have to choose either of Flattery or Rhetoric, Hayden, because Diplomacy is your highest skill for both and you can only use it for one tactic. The other tactic will be closed off to you.
Mishka, Ancestral Enlightenment is providing Edge, on every skill it applies to. I missed your bonus to Intimidate from Tribal Scars, that's why my calculation for Intimidate is off by 2. The feat contributes to Edge, but we round down. So Intimidate will be +5, 2 Edge for Mishka. (This means you are ok to use Sense Motive for Baiting).
Edge does not break ties - you can choose in the event of a tie in your calculated bonuses, as long as you keep to using each skill on only one tactic.
The masks have an effect (sort of) but not in the way of altering any of your checks.
You can use that Morale Pool reroll on any check in the debate, Mishka, since they are all CHA checks.
The character speaking can always choose which tactic to use in an exchange, from all of the options that the character has assigned skills to. In order to maximise those choices you probably want to try to keep options open.
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Oh, I can't choose a lower bonus skill that's unassigned if I have a higher one that is already assigned? So if I assign Diplomacy to Rhetoric, I can't use Flattery at all? (My highest in Flattery is actually Knowledge, Nobility, which is assigned to Presence.) So most of these assignments are predetermined then.
Allegory: Knowledge, Religion +6
Baiting: N/A
Emotional Appeal: Sense Motive +7
Flattery: N/A
Logic: Knowledge, Local +2
Mockery: Intimidate: +2
Presence: Knowledge, Nobility +7
Red Herring: Perform, Oratory +2
Rhetoric: Diplomacy +6
Wit: Linguistics +2
You've got it Hayden. Many of the assignments effectively are predetermined. If your highest skill in multiple tactics is the same skill, you can only use it on one of those tactics and the others are closed off to you. So in the case of Flattery, you would have to assign Knowledge (nobility) but you can only do so if you do not use Presence at all. Because your Knowledge (nobility) is higher than your Diplomacy, you can never assign Diplomacy to Flattery.
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Anybody willing and able to put together a combined spreadsheet, maybe using the GM's template, indicating the group's selected tactics and skills with the associated modifier and Edge?
Might help us get a snapshot of our strengths and weaknesses and ensure the team hasn't overlooked anything.
Spreadsheets are not my personal strong suit.
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I had made a combined list, showing the team's highest bonuses in each tactic, but then the GM said that sometimes we will not be able to choose the person to respond. I guess a combined sheet still would just put everything in one place. Plus, I misunderstood the directions initially.
I can do this later today if you want.
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Anything that gives a bonus but isn't directly boosting your CHA modifier can give Edges: 1 Edge per 3 points of bonus. So Heroism on its own will do nothing, but Heroism plus, say, a Trait bonus on your skill will translate to +1 Edge.
(Enhanced Diplomacy is fine for this, Vlazis)
Don't worry too much Dale - you are supposed to lose this debate - albeit whilst looking good.
Dale is a mindchemist, and while I normally make my cognatogen for INT, seeing the rules of this, and the general spirit of debates being CHA focused to get your points across, Dale can make a new cognatogen for +4 CHA that lasts for 50mins. It does look like the heroism wouldn't be enough to add in any more edge, unless I can fashion a bullhorn out of my traveler's anytool for a +2 circumstance bonus :)
Below is my breakdown without the cog. CHA bonus. Please check it over to see if I did it correctly. I've entered these into the spreadsheet.
History +0, Edge +2
Sense Motive +0, Edge +2
Oratory +0, Edge +2
Diplomacy +0, Edge +2
Planes +0, Edge +2
Intimidate +0, Edge +2
Nobility +0, Edge +2
Bluff +0, Edge +2
Linguistics +8, Edge +0
Comedy +0, Edge +2
Those numbers look right Dale. If you use a CHA Cognatogen you're adding +2 to all the skill checks.
I'll say no to the Any-Tool though - unless you can think of a suitably creative substitution for a Craft or Profession skill in place of the normal skill choices, where a masterwork artisan tool would be appropriate :)
Just waiting on Tenibri's choices.