Dual Kings, one military and one civilian seems like a perfect puzzle piece to fit between the potential issue with Pravic and Kalderin mentioned above, Pravic as a military leader and Kalderin as a civil leader. It would be an interesting, and very different way to do it. And an Adamantine throne next to a Mithral throne sounds amazing. I don't have a preference if we decide to chase a single or dual king, I am good with whatever the group prefers. (bold choice... I know)
@Grimdahl, your suggestion would put us as close relatives (or brothers actually), based on my earlier suggestion, as I also mentioned the same thing. It would be an interesting family dynamic, as certain dwarven ideals we would agree on, but others, particularly involving dwarven faith, we couldn't disagree more.
Grimdahl and I as brothers would make the "claim to the throne" wrinkle a bit more interesting as well.
@Reginald, consider this: The council that decides to sanction the quest for dammerhall includes you, among many other dwarves. Several dwarves were vehemently against going at all, they believe it is false hopes and the worry of what the dwarves would have to do if we actually find the old city. (ie the toll a war would take on a declining race) You and Doled stood alone in your argument to sanction the quest. Eventually, Doled's voice and rank carried enough weight to convince the council (or strong-arm them) and you were tasked with overseeing the expedition. "If you want it so bad, then you lead it." Food for thought...
Pravic: Interesting thought! In terms of the 'claim to the throne' I didn't take any of the relevant traits and Grimdahl isn't interested in the least; maybe part of his oath to Magnar involved giving up any claim, recognising that some would see him as too 'tainted' by his time away among non-dwarves? Also, Grimdahl isn't what you'd call an inspirational leader, or even terribly sociable; I remember reading somewhere a description of someone as being listened to not because they were leader, or even a great speaker, but because they were telling you things you needed to know if you wanted to carry on living. I see Grimdahl, with his high Perception and high Wis, as something like that.
To that extent, he supplements T'jener rather than competes directly with him: the older dwarf is lore-keeper, knowledge repository and conciliator; while Grimdahl offers counsel and advice to those who can cope with his abrasiveness. Perhaps T'jener occasionally takes what Grimdahl has said and re-phrases it to be more diplomatic.
Ingrid: I think Grimdahl knew Edrukk. Given the slight age difference, maybe Grimdahl (with his youthful reputation for exploring the underground) was asked to supervise Edrukk's group and refused, saying he was off to seek greater power than purely martial might. He would therefore feel guilty having found out that Edrukk (and you) were later ambushed, thinking if he'd been there he might have spotted the trap. Hence his attempts to make sure you felt you belonged at the funeral - if Edrukk were still alive, it wouldn't be an issue. On the other hand, that might just make things a bit angsty so maybe not.
Igmar: depending on how old your character is, maybe Grimdahl was part of your expedition that fell into the trap and is another (maybe the only other?) survivor. The two of them reacted in completely different ways: Igmar went on to become a master of weaponry and re-doubled his efforts to seek and slay drow; Grimdahl decided that martial might alone wouldn't work and went off to seek mastery of the earth itself.
Bali: I see Grimdahl as the absent relative who drops in occasionally, showers you with presents and then leaves again. Given the controversy over what he was doing, maybe no one told you where he went when he left and it was all sort of glossed over. Maybe all you heard was the stuff from the early part of his life, when he was the hot-headed traditionalist intent on taking the fight back to the enemies below ground. Grimdahl for his part is probably having trouble adjusting to the fact that you're a grown-up now.
Sorry, all - just realised that's a horrible wall of text to have to read through. Hope it makes sense.
Pravic - I like that idea. Makes sense with what came out at the funeral too. The Dwarves as a whole are just too beaten right now to put up much of a fight. Only retaking the Mithral Throne can revive the Dwarven spirit.
Since the twin throne thing seems to have caught on, here are some thoughts:
- Mithral must control all means of production. If Adamantine controls its own means of production, then the stage is set for Adamantine to overthrow Mithral in the future.
- These thrones must have interdependencies such that one cannot survive if the other falls.
- Perhaps this could be accomplished with spells? If no, one idea Inhad was that adamantine serves as Mithral's police force and Mithral serves as Adamantine's Quartermasters. That way Mithral has more than "We won't give you those supplies you've been stockpiling..." And Adamantine has more than "We'll just let the enemies through the gates.
But those are, honestly, conciderations for another time. For now, Campaign Start! Let the Tale of Two Thrones begin!
On the note of "dual" rulership, I'm not quite sure that works in an all dwarven campaign. I'm certainly fine with some characters being non-traditionalist, and my own character isn't mindlessly traditional, but he is a dwarf. If we're willing to do something completely new, there's really be no point to playing dwarves, why not play standard kingmaker?
Not to say it isn't a cool idea, I just liked the idea of playing a party of dwarves *because* they're traditional. (And if we were playing the drow version of Throne of Night I would be all about two thrones for the added complications!)
Fair point. I'm gonna go ahead and make it clear that I'm neutral on the subject. I'm just throwing ideas out there to get the juices flowing. In game, Reginald will support the traditional way because that's who he is.
I honestly like the idea simply because it is so unique, but I will say in the audition RP I really enjoyed playing Pravic as a hot headed traditionalist, so the singular throne makes far more sense from that perspective. I too am mostly neutral, because I just want to have fun, and this is going to be great fun with this group. Based on our above discussion, I would cast my vote in with Kalderin, that a singular throne makes the most sense, and presents more opportunities for character development "moments" down the road in the campaign.
Grimdahl - If you aren't unopposed, I say we set it in stone (see what I did there?) we are brothers, both offspring of the brother slain by Kalderin's father.
my own character isn't mindlessly traditional, but he is a dwarf
Well said. I agree, the 'two thrones' idea is cool, but I don't think it's terribly dwarven. I can envisage the non-traditionalists suggesting for example a non-hereditary monarchy, where the King is appointed by a council (the council themselves being the heads of the clans, or some such). Thus, in time of war the council might appoint a warrior general, and in more peaceful times they might appoint a diplomatic type.
But we are getting ahead of ourselves by some considerable distance...
Pravic: fine, but there's some age gap...! Likely that they don't actually know one another that well, what with your training and mine being very demanding and keeping us away from our family. Just a thought.
Oh god. So much to read. I'll just say this though - Grimdahl, I'm fine with angst. I like characters to have things they need to work past and get over. Development is always a good thing.
Grimdahl, I was looking through your profile and didn't see your age. As long as you are cool with it, the details of the age gap and that stuff is fine with me. And it would make sense that we know we are brothers, but don't know each other much, as you said, because of our respective training. It would also explain both of our innate curiosity and fascination with the earth, both of us taking very different paths regarding that. (Stonelord vs deep earth druid)
My age is currently pretty young... So I imagine you would be the elder. And its all just spitballing ideas anyways, so if you would rather not, I am cool with it either way.
Hey guys,
I wanted to be very upfront with you all and tell you that I will be withdrawing Igmar from the game. I had a handful of recruitments finish over the weekend and I was accepted into this game and another and have a personal rule to only participate in one game at any given time. So it was with much, much hardship that I decided to go with the other game.
Fear not, however, in knowing that I have been very transparent with Olmek on this matter and that he has assured me he has a suitable replacement in mind. I'm sorry for this, but am glad that I was able to withdraw before any significant gameplay has been had. I'm hoping that will ease the transition of introducing another character.
I hope all of our paths cross again and look forward to the change of playing with all of you on these boards sometime in the future. You can't imagine how truly hard this decision has been for me, it has been eating me up over the last few days. I hope there are no hard feelings.
Good luck and all the best in your quest to reclaim Dammerhall!
Kyle
Pravic: works for me, it's a nice idea. As I said up-thread, I didn't take any of the "heir" or "nobility" traits but we can hand-wave that by saying the oath Grimdahl took somehow means that he gave up any rights - otherwise as the elder he would be entitled before you! Something like "I will guide, but not lead" - a recognition that as an outsider there will always be some who distrust him; and the fact that as a druid he rather enjoys solitude.
Igmar - sorry to see you go, all the best with your other campaign!
Igmar - Have fun in the oher game! No hard feelings here. Personal boundaries are very important.
I wonder who our replacement will be?
As long as our GM is good with it, sounds good to me Grimdahl!
I echo the sentiments Igmar, sorry to see you go. I respect and appreciate you being so upfront! Good luck in your other game!
Wonders the same thing as Reginald...
Hey everyone, your dishonored dwarf has arrived!
I'll try to get caught up on the thread, but you never have to worry about Nurin taking the throne.
Excellent! I liked your character, so I'm glad Mr. GM chose you. :)
Edit: GM, what quick reference stats would you like in our class fields for this campaign?
I think Grimdahl and Pravic both have a good spread. Copy one of theirs. :)
New post will be up shortly. It's been a hectic day between work and soul-searching on who the new player will be.
Welcome Nurin! I second Reginald's statement.
No I am not being a lemming and just copying whatever Reginald says. He just beats me to the punch... Every time.
You have much to learn in the ways of F5-fu, young one. :P
Hey, Nurin! Good to have you along!
Updated tokens to include Nurin, welcome, fellow Dwarf!
I'll be updating my quick stats soon.
I picked Gnome as an additional language, kind of arbitrarily, meaning to change it to something more useful. Can I change it to something else? Suggestions?
Gnome will be extremely useful in the campaign. Drow aren't the only race that lives in the Underdark. ;)
I know it as well, but my diplo and bluff scores are pitiful at the moment. I only have a chance on Dwarves because of my awesome beard. :)
This is Bali's current outlook on the other Dwarves here. Let me know if anything seems out of place or flat our wrong. I only looked through profiles and bolded spoken words from the gameplay thread to discern these. Commence wall of text in 3...2...1...
Grimdahl 95 (Druid) - Cousin by Bali's adoption, Bali regards Grimdahl with strange admiration, remembering him as a jovial, brother like friend. Now Grimdahl, returned from an inexplicable absence, is a Druid. Confused, but curious, Bali can't wait to get to know him better.
Ingrid 70's (Warpriest) - Bali doesn't know whether to pity or envy Ingrid. In such a short period, Ingrid was scared for life by the hated Drow, yet Bali, having been held captive and enslaved for years, bore nothing more to show for it than a furious hatred for them. Bali respects Ingrid greatly for being able to go on, though. Bali wants to find a kinship in Ingrid, but fears it will be difficult because of Ingrid's disposition towards the Tharnhammer name.
Kalderin 60 (Bard) - Bali has heard the rumors surrounding Kalderin's heritage, but can only surmise that this Dwarf is unlike those spoken of in such rumors. Still, Bali would keep an eye on Kalderin, hoping that her instincts are wrong.
Nurin ?? (Magus) - Bali, not sure of what oath Nurin spoke of the first time they met, assumes that Nurin's family was some sort of ceremonial guard for the Tharnhammers, perhaps fallen into disgrace. She generally likes his attitude, though, and finds him an admirable Dwarf, even if his battle prowess might rely on magics she doesn't understand.
Pravic 49 (Paladin) - Obviously proud and cunning, Bali has the utmost respect for Pravic and his station, and would likely be willing to die defending the Dwarf given the chance.
Reginald 260 (Wizard.Conj) - Keenly aware of his superior age, Bali finds Reginald to be a likely source of knowledge and leadership. Especially in her kin's heritage. Bali, not certain where she falls in Reginald's view of her, doesn't want to upset the old one. Though, from what she has seem of him, that would likely not happen anyways. Maybe one day, in the halls of Dammerhall, others will look to Bali in the same, inspiring light.
Let's make Nurin about 56. I intend somewhat of a non-traditionalist both with his family's disgrace as well as him going to the human lands to learn arcane magic to fight with rather than divine magic. That all puts him on the outside looking in most of the time. Actually, he's a non-traditionalist who wants back in the traditionalist society.
Bali needs to be near the front, but not in the front.
Grimdahl - Rear guard perhaps?
Ingrid - Near rear guard, but not all the way back.
Kalderin - Middle of march.
Nurin - I'm not sure if you are focusing more on spells or melee.
Pravic - Not having a scout otherwise, I think our Paladin friend should take point.
Reginald - In the middle, but ahead of Kalderin due to Darkvision 90.
So, I propose:
Pravic
Bali
Reginald
Kalderin
Ingrid
Grimdahl
Not sure where to put Nurin as of yet.
Igmar - Have fun in the oher game! No hard feelings here. Personal boundaries are very important.
I wonder who our replacement will be?
*Hopeful face*
...
Dammit :P.
Bali: love the outlook summary, makes things very clear.
I'm happy to be rearguard, but I think you're possibly overlooking the +8 Perception 90 ft darkvision and decent Stealth (non-metal armour). Can I suggest near or at the front, with your reach weapon just behind?
Shame we just lost our ranger, he'd have been an ideal corpse - I mean, scout... Can't believe I'm volunteering for this!
Pravic - Not having a scout otherwise, I think our Paladin friend should take point.
I agree, both mechanically and RP, I think this makes good sense. Just quickly reviewing perception scores (for finding traps) our Druid and Wizard look to be the highest on the list. I assume they do not need to be in the front in order to percept for traps?
Perhaps I should put some points in perception...
Can I suggest near or at the front, with your reach weapon just behind?
If you do not need to be in the front to look for traps, we could theoretically do something like this:
Pravic (point, meat shield)
Bali (interchangeable with Grimdahl, but good with reach weapon)
Grimdahl (scout, perception)
Reginald (back up perception, safest place in the middle for wizard)
Kalderin (Support, everyone in range for buffs, relatively safe)
Nurin (Rear Guard)
Ingrid (Rear Guard)
**Edit** If Grimdahl does need to be in the front in order to scout, then probably a simple switch of Pravic and Grimdahl would work. Ingrid would likely also be good in that third spot for detect evil, heals, etc in case we get ambushed from the front.
Pravic *
Grimdahl *
Bali &
Reginald &
Kalderin
Ingrid $
Nurin $
Still not sure on Nurin. I've never played a Magus, but they seem like they need to be in melee. For now let's assume rear guard?
* & $ Side by side when possible.
EDIT: I just saw your post Pravic. The two seem interchangeable.
I'm fine with Nurin in the rear. Magus is very melee focused, and Nurin even more so as a dwarf. Though at first level he can't spellstrike.
I've decided to run the campaign and battle maps through a website called Roll20. Please head on over there and make an account.
When you're finished with that, click the link below to get access to the game page. This is where we'll keep track of our places on the map.
Let me know what your username is so I can give the correct access to tokens. Thanks!
ReliantLion - Bali
I'm trying to get my name to show up as "choon" but the site stubbornly shows me as "Gideon S." In any case, I'm there.
Note: I do most of my posting from my phone, which is not supported by roll20 without paying for it. I may need people to move me when the time comes. I'll try to move myself, but I may simply be unable to access an actual computer in time for the round to move forward.
A simple solution for that is to take a pic of the "battle mat" on your phone when you know you will need to reference it later, then just call out what you want to do. "2 spaces up and 1 left" for example.
I can move you as needed, Choon.
Good idea, Bali.
And thanks GM. :)
Enchanter Tim = Nurin
Acutally, I just found on the side bar under the settings (gears) menu, you can change how your name is shown for the game. I don't think it affects other games, but I'm not sure.
Pravic = Papasteve08
All set on this end!
Hi, managed to log on (eventually) - username Darkness Rising
Just wanted to confirm that we started with average starting gold, correct? Not max. So any purchases we make now are going to be pretty...minor.
Yes, average gold.
Don't worry GM, I don't plan on emptying the larder. :)
I just saw your post Pravic. The two seem interchangeable.
Yup... we are probably splitting hairs here... :) I like yours best...
I thought I was excited last week... I think I am as excited as my character... when do we leave? :)
I'm not sure how comfortable I am with taking oxen, wagons, *and* provisions (along with, what I assume are the gifts we'll be giving the deep gnomes) for "free" when they should really be taken out of our starting gold (as a representation of what each of us has available to us before the game starts). It's not all that expensive, but it still costs something to someone.
But, with that said, if the GM is cool with it, then it's fine by me. And I'm happy to roll with it given it's the direction we went. ;)
I have something like 30ish GP, I will be happy to contribute whatever I need to the cause. Its easy enough to hand wave that I chipped in my portion before I left to meet with the group, just let me know how much we need, and who has what to chip in. I imagine there will be plenty of "party loot" to spread around that in the end, a few bits of starting gold won't matter much.
To be clear, I don't think it's that big a deal. Just one of those things that makes the bean counter in my squeamish. It's a pretty irrational feeling, and I'm aware of this.
And like Pravic, I'm also willing to throw in my starting gold (and edited my ic post to reflect this.)
It was something I fretted over briefly yesterday, but ultimately I didn't feel like I should really penalize you guys for the nature of the quest. I have faith that you won't cash in on them as soon as you make it to Fasturvault.
@Grimdahl - That last post was awesome... My new favorite. Very nice!
I want to run something by you guys.
Coming up shortly is what is intended to be an NPC with a minor role in the campaign. I was thinking about getting my brother to play it in a quasi-Assistant GM/PC role. He would be there as another avenue to move the plot a long in this first adventure and a useful member of the party with some skills that your group is light on.
Let me know if you're opposed to this.
For what it's worth, I trust him immensely in this capacity. He's new to pbp games, but he's a skilled GM and a decent writer.