Lore Dissonance with Gods & Magic

Gods & Magic is a great book written by many talented people. However, I've noticed examples of significant dissonance with the lore that obstruct building character concepts around the setting's narrative, which makes it difficult for me to get past them. A few I have encountered include:

1. Apsu will only serve as a patron to Lawful Good characters despite the fact he's the patron deity of all good-aligned dragons. It feels strange that copper and brass dragons cannot become clerics or champions of Apsu despite him being the father of all good metallic dragons.

2. Glyph domain's redact focus spell violates the edicts of most deities that have that domain. Obscuring or redacting information or destroying literary works is an anathema for deities like Irez, Entrice, Imot, and many others.

3. Bladed scarves are no longer finesse weapons. The changes to this weapon from its 1st Edition counterpart strikes me as odd. Adding reach is neat, but the finesse property was the selling point of bladed scarves in terms of both flavor and mechanics. Especially bladed scarves are associated with Varisian dancers and deities with Dexterity as a divine ability score.

4. No deities have bo staff as a favored weapon, not even Tien dieties like Sun Wukong. A minor one but still worth mentioning. I suppose an odd effect from quarterstaff not existing in 2nd Edition.

Any others you spotted?

1) Cleric/Champion Dragons aren't really that common to begin with so it doesn't seem like much of an issue.

2) The base version of Redact doesn't seem to, but the heightened version does, so don't use that part.

3) I'm curious about this change as well.

4) It may have supposed to have been the Bo Staff with the "Bo" left off by accident, easy to overlook.

Urgathoa is supposed to be the goddess of disease, but has no access to Plague domain, not even as an alternate domain? To me it's even more weird that she has Might and Zeal on her "primary domain" list.

None of those four points should pose the slightest problem, either in gameplay or character creation.

The notion that of the "quarterstaff not existing in 2nd Edition." is patently false, since it's right there in the simple weapons listing under "staff".

Bladed scarves were a silly weapon to begin with, and that absurd concept shouldn't be further empowered by unbalanced game mechanics.

The first two points are barely shrug-worthy.

1. Apsu is also the father of Dahak too? That is irrelevant, it is all about who Apsu decides to give power to.

2. Hmmm, it all depends on how you use it. It doesn't inherrently violate any of those anathema and is quite useful to have.

3. A bit weird since pf1e directly called out weapon finesse interaction, personally I like the change as I don't think it is a particularly finessable weapon.

4. Standard staff suits clerics of sunwukong more imo, he uses a bostaff in most fiction but is inherrently a trickster who likes disguising himself even in pf fiction. It would have been nice for both as an option, or for it to read "staves", as a GM I would allow bo staff as a divine weapon, but mechanically it is better to have it on normal staves.

The notion that of the "quarterstaff not existing in 2nd Edition." is patently false, since it's right there in the simple weapons listing under "staff".

Right, but in PF2 there are two separate staffs, one of which aligns more appropriately with some of the deities in question. It's admittedly not really a problem, but kind of an oddity worth noting probably like the OP does.

Bladed scarves were a silly weapon to begin with

I feel like "I don't like this weapon" is a pretty terrible argument for anything. Good for you I guess, though.

3. A bit weird since pf1e directly called out weapon finesse interaction, personally I like the change as I don't think it is a particularly finessable weapon.

The spiked chain on the other hand still has finesse - and I would consider them equally finessable

The other point about Bo-Staff vs Staff is that for Cloistered Clerics having Staff be the favoured weapon helps them, while it doesn't hinder Champions or War Priests wanting to weild the bo.

Wheldrake wrote:

The notion that of the "quarterstaff not existing in 2nd Edition." is patently false, since it's right there in the simple weapons listing under "staff".

Right, but in PF2 there are two separate staffs, one of which aligns more appropriately with some of the deities in question. It's admittedly not really a problem, but kind of an oddity worth noting probably like the OP does.

This.

Splitting quarterstaff into staff and bo staff was a great idea, but unfortunately, it seems none of the deities got examined as to whether their favored weapon should be one or the other.

Bo Staff certainly fits Sun Wukong because it's a Tien weapon that was used by the mythological character that inspired the deity. The bo staff also has monk, trip, and reach.

I'm going with the "forgetting finesse on bladed scarf was a mistake" and thinking they'll add it in an errata. So am making it finesse. People may think it has too many traits, but that's just how this weird weapon is supposed to be. Should probably go back to 1d6 damage, though.

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

3. A bit weird since pf1e directly called out weapon finesse interaction, personally I like the change as I don't think it is a particularly finessable weapon.

The spiked chain on the other hand still has finesse - and I would consider them equally finessable

A chain is wayyyyyy easier to wield and manuver than a scarf and has a smaller area to boot making it more suitable for finesse attacks than a scarf.

I don't think they are going to give any weapon reach, sweep, trip and finesse. Especially not a D8 weapon, but even at D4, reach and trip on a finesse weapon is going to get silly because it allows you to trip with Dexterity instead of Str at range. Rogues would have eaten it up. If you add finesse to the scarf, you probably have to ditch reach, which I think was the exact opposite of how they envisioned the bladed scarf being used in PF2.

I don't think they are going to give any weapon reach, sweep, trip and finesse. Especially not a D8 weapon, but even at D4, reach and trip on a finesse weapon is going to get silly because it allows you to trip with Dexterity instead of Str at range. Rogues would have eaten it up. If you add finesse to the scarf, you probably have to ditch reach, which I think was the exact opposite of how they envisioned the bladed scarf being used in PF2.

The d4 reach and trip on finesse... you mean like a whip? If the scarf was upgraded to be na advanced weapon instead of martial and the die got reduced to d6 I could see it being finesse.

Unicore wrote:

I don't think they are going to give any weapon reach, sweep, trip and finesse. Especially not a D8 weapon, but even at D4, reach and trip on a finesse weapon is going to get silly because it allows you to trip with Dexterity instead of Str at range. Rogues would have eaten it up. If you add finesse to the scarf, you probably have to ditch reach, which I think was the exact opposite of how they envisioned the bladed scarf being used in PF2.

The d4 reach and trip on finesse... you mean like a whip? If the scarf was upgraded to be na advanced weapon instead of martial and the die got reduced to d6 I could see it being finesse.

True but the whip is non-lethal, already martial, and does not get sweep, which can almost serve as well as agile on a reach weapon. The scarf as is is an exceptionally useful weapon that is really cool with its current features. If, for a house rule, you were going to make the bladed scarf an advanced D6 reach, finesse, trip weapon, you should probably lose sweep as well.

Finesse seems more core to the scarf concept than sweep. Its an odd choice.

As to the other points (also the one about Urgathoa and Plague domain), I agree with the OP and at my table will happily house rule it in.

I think in sometimes in their quest for balance or maybe the haste that they produce some of these things Paizo overlook some things or are a little zealous in their restrictions.

But that is the great thing about TTRPGs, may table I can adjust things. Apsu could have a CG champion if the backstory is right, Urgathoa will have plague as a standard domain and might or zeal will move to alternate.

Bladed Scarf will have finesse but probably lose sweep, I may also rule against it being able to Trip at range if it becomes an issue.

Oh and Bo Staff for SunWukong is given.

I don't think finesse on the scarf ever really made much practical sense. Sweep fits the bladed scarf style so much better.

I don't think finesse on the scarf ever really made much practical sense. Sweep fits the bladed scarf style so much better.

It matters what kind of scarf one imagines. There's no common correlate in the real world, so one's visualization could vary. There's a light edging on a thin veil, like a belly dancer or gypsy might wear while spinning and leaping. Or it could be like a metallic shawl from a Russian winter, or Irrisen I suppose.

I don't have its PF2 weight, but in PF1 it was 2 pds. so not heavy, but more than a thin cloth. Also the weight of weapons both w/ & w/o Finesse, so unhelpful for now. But I'd say it's heavier than a veil.

And given that it now has Reach & Sweep, I have to guess Paizo's envisioning a large weapon. So it's not like Rose from Street Fighter, which snaps like a whip, but something one swings with broad strokes (hence Sweep, but not Finesse). It's also a larger die for damage than PF1, so it may simply be different. I think there could be room for both types, though I think Finesse w/ Reach would have to go down to 1d4.

All I know is the characters that are supposed to use that scarf are high Dex lightweight Dancers. The main reason why it's a scarf is for stealth purposes too, and you can't even Sneak Attack with it... High STR characters shouldn't be the ones desiring this weapon. Don't mind if it's weakened in other ways but it really needs finesse.

The Starknife probably has less justification, that thing is huge and gets all Agile, finesse and L weight...

Yeah, all issues of practicality aside, the scarf as described in PF1 is a performance piece or hidden weapon used by graceful and agile Varisian dancers.

While the bladed scarf as mechanically defined in PF2 is best wielded by 18 strength plate wearers.

There's nothing inherently wrong about Reach/Sweep, but there's definitely a bit of a disconnect between the flavor of the piece and its mechanics.

Just wait until you see El Luchacabra's stunning fullplate Pole dancing before he removes the front rows heads with mighty swing of his scarf.

Yeah, all issues of practicality aside, the scarf as described in PF1 is a performance piece or hidden weapon used by graceful and agile Varisian dancers.

While the bladed scarf as mechanically defined in PF2 is best wielded by 18 strength plate wearers.

There's nothing inherently wrong about Reach/Sweep, but there's definitely a bit of a disconnect between the flavor of the piece and its mechanics.

If that's the case/perception, then I really feel we need to errata it. The whole point of this weapon, as I've envisioned it from he start when I invented it for the setting, was that it was something used by dexterous characters who don't look like fighters and hide their weapon in plain sight, in part due to a deep tradition back in the day when Varisia was ruled by Thassilon and the resistance fighters (of which there weren't many) used weapons like this to be able to be armed without appearing to be armed.

It seems like an easy fix to me, mechanically speaking. Just get rid of Disarm and give it Finesse, it could probably take a hit on the Damage Die too as a d8 Weapon with Range that cannot be "Dropped" in the normal sense (It's a worn item that doesn't fall to the ground since you're actually wearing the Scarf around your neck even when you're attacking with it, right?) is a BIT much.

Agreed with all the discussion above. I've always viewed this as on-par with the whip, though likely without the reach and lethal rather than nonlethal. Just got the book myself and was surprised by the mechanics of the scarf.

There's definitely some confusion in-house on whether or not the bladed scarf should be finesse or not. I just saw that in Sivanah's Avatar stats, the bladed scarf attack is listed as finesse.

There's definitely some confusion in-house on whether or not the bladed scarf should be finesse or not. I just saw that in Sivanah's Avatar stats, the bladed scarf attack is listed as finesse.

Further suggests to me that the info on the table is a typo. As mentioned upthread replacing sweep with finesse is an easy and elegant solution.

Salamileg wrote:

There's definitely some confusion in-house on whether or not the bladed scarf should be finesse or not. I just saw that in Sivanah's Avatar stats, the bladed scarf attack is listed as finesse.

Further suggests to me that the info on the table is a typo. As mentioned upthread replacing sweep with finesse is an easy and elegant solution.

I don't know: sweep seems very thematic for a scarf dancing character. "This weapon makes wide sweeping or spinning attacks, making it easier to attack multiple enemies." I think I'd replace disarm as I think a scarf with "thin metal plates interwoven throughout" would have a harder time with Disarm than more flexible weapons like a whip or chain.

James Jacobs wrote:

Salamileg wrote:

There's definitely some confusion in-house on whether or not the bladed scarf should be finesse or not. I just saw that in Sivanah's Avatar stats, the bladed scarf attack is listed as finesse.

Further suggests to me that the info on the table is a typo. As mentioned upthread replacing sweep with finesse is an easy and elegant solution.

I don't know: sweep seems very thematic for a scarf dancing character. "This weapon makes wide sweeping or spinning attacks, making it easier to attack multiple enemies." I think I'd replace disarm as I think a scarf with "thin metal plates interwoven throughout" would have a harder time with Disarm than more flexable weapons like a whip or chain.

That works fine too.

How is the bladed scarf wielded as a weapon? Is it direct attacks where we convert angular momentum to linear momentum (like a rope dart or a meteor hammer) or do you swing it wide (which seems less effective to me)?

How is the bladed scarf wielded as a weapon? Is it direct attacks where we convert angular momentum to linear momentum (like a rope dart or a meteor hammer) or do you swing it wide (which seems less effective to me)?

Like a rope dart or meteor hammer.

How is the bladed scarf wielded as a weapon? Is it direct attacks where we convert angular momentum to linear momentum (like a rope dart or a meteor hammer) or do you swing it wide (which seems less effective to me)?

Rope darts also use sweeping slashing attacks. Meteor hammers also have slam and swing attacks using overhead or sideways arcs. It's not really an either/or for them on angular or linear momentum. The linear move tend to be the 'basic' moves as they are easier to learn and easier to avoid hurt yourself with.

Hi there everyone. Friendly neighborhood Design Manager (and design lead for this book). We're definitely going to take a look at adding that finesse trait back into the bladed scarf. That said, in your games, if you want to make adjustments to weapons, it is not a good idea to just take out any trait and replace it with any other trait, especially if the new trait is finesse or agile, and it is not a change we endorse for this weapon. In your home game, you'd be looking to remove probably disarm, for reasons graystone suggests, and then also either change the damage die to d6 or remove reach. Removing just disarm, or just sweep, does not leave the resulting weapon as a reasonable alternative to the elven curve blade or spiked chain (in fact, removing just sweep leaves you with literally a strictly more powerful weapon than the spiked chain that has all the same traits and also reach, and it is the less powerful of the two options). Of course, no change is official until we release errata, but that should help grok some of the possibilities at least.

While you're here, Mr. Seifter is there any problem to be aware of with changing some of the "staff" favored weapons to "bo staff" when that would be more appropriate (like for Sun Wukong)?

While you're here, Mr. Seifter is there any problem to be aware of with changing some of the "staff" favored weapons to "bo staff" when that would be more appropriate (like for Sun Wukong)?

Whether to make a change like that would be up to the development leads. How to execute a mechanical change, like the question here "What are the best possibilities for adding finesse to this weapon" is specifically my bailiwick (I checked with them anyway just in case before posting here about the bladed scarf to make sure I was on the same page).

What I will probably personally do with the bladed scarf is replace Disarm with Finesse and also make it an Advanced weapon, rather than Martial - it doesn't really strike me as a weapon one could use effectively without very special training.

What I will probably personally do with the bladed scarf is replace Disarm with Finesse and also make it an Advanced weapon, rather than Martial - it doesn't really strike me as a weapon one could use effectively without very special training.

I would be leery about giving advanced weapons to deities as favored weapons, since clerics (likely not a problem) and champions (probably a problem) would finagle proficiency with a superior weapon very cheaply.

The examples of "advanced weapons favored by a deity" we had previously were for evil deities, so no champions (yet). So I'd just be careful here. Ashava doesn't seem as martially inclined as Zon-Kuthon or Achaekek either.

MaxAstro wrote:

What I will probably personally do with the bladed scarf is replace Disarm with Finesse and also make it an Advanced weapon, rather than Martial - it doesn't really strike me as a weapon one could use effectively without very special training.

I would be leery about giving advanced weapons to deities as favored weapons, since clerics (likely not a problem) and champions (probably a problem) would finagle proficiency with a superior weapon very cheaply.

Oh! I hadn't considered that angle. Yeah, that would be concerning...

Just goes to show, game design is hard. :P

Champions don't have any special way to gain proficiency with a deity's favored weapon.

As a deity favoured weapon there is more baggage than just I pick that deity for proficiency in the advanced weapon. Deities have anathemas and domains limited by choice (also a fair chunk of the RP flavour of how you play the character) so its unlikely to be the core reason you chose a particularly deity... and if it is I am not sure its a bad thing. Clerics are not super melee combatants, decent but its not usually the core of why they are effective. I am not sure even with an advanced weapon they could compete with Fighters, rangers and rogues etc.

A cleric of Sun Wukong having a little greater skill with say a bo staff is flavourful and I don't feel overly unbalancing and could be fixed with an anathema about no medium or heavy armour if required to stay in flavour of the monkey king (would have to look at impact on Sun Wukaong champs)

Champions are a different schtick but even then I don't think its that big a deal - it would take 2 feats (cleric archteype + weapon) be able to get access it which is a huge tradeoff.

Overall balance about weapons is more important (bladed scarf discussion). If it is strickly a better choice than Spiked Chain that is bad. There should be a trade off.

Some feats (I don't know where or how you would implement them) that gave you access to additional traits when using certain weapons would be good - it would be a nice way to improve or build upon the racial feats for weapons but I could also perhaps see some general feats around certain weapons gaining additional traits where it makes sense to do so. So if disarm and sweep weren't on the bladed scarf, there could be a feat that allows you to act as if the bladed scarf, spiked chain and similar weapons have them.

Sorry just spit-balling.

Hi there everyone. Friendly neighborhood Design Manager (and design lead for this book). We're definitely going to take a look at adding that finesse trait back into the bladed scarf. That said, in your games, if you want to make adjustments to weapons, it is not a good idea to just take out any trait and replace it with any other trait, especially if the new trait is finesse or agile, and it is not a change we endorse for this weapon. In your home game, you'd be looking to remove probably disarm, for reasons graystone suggests, and then also either change the damage die to d6 or remove reach. Removing just disarm, or just sweep, does not leave the resulting weapon as a reasonable alternative to the elven curve blade or spiked chain (in fact, removing just sweep leaves you with literally a strictly more powerful weapon than the spiked chain that has all the same traits and also reach, and it is the less powerful of the two options). Of course, no change is official until we release errata, but that should help grok some of the possibilities at least.

Finesse, sweep and reach and trip feel like a really, really powerful combination of traits on a martial weapon, especially a D8 one. that sweep is almost as good as tagging on Agile to a weapon with reach and, unless I am mistaken would even apply to trip attempts made with finesse.

Hi there everyone. Friendly neighborhood Design Manager (and design lead for this book). We're definitely going to take a look at adding that finesse trait back into the bladed scarf. That said, in your games, if you want to make adjustments to weapons, it is not a good idea to just take out any trait and replace it with any other trait, especially if the new trait is finesse or agile, and it is not a change we endorse for this weapon. In your home game, you'd be looking to remove probably disarm, for reasons graystone suggests, and then also either change the damage die to d6 or remove reach. Removing just disarm, or just sweep, does not leave the resulting weapon as a reasonable alternative to the elven curve blade or spiked chain (in fact, removing just sweep leaves you with literally a strictly more powerful weapon than the spiked chain that has all the same traits and also reach, and it is the less powerful of the two options). Of course, no change is official until we release errata, but that should help grok some of the possibilities at least.

Thanks to you and James for taking a look at it!

I like the idea of keeping the reach at the expense of the disarm and damage die. It fits really well with how I envision bladed scarves being wielded where the dancer is difficult to approach and can lash out at some distance like a whip when they're in their battle dance.

Hi there everyone. Friendly neighborhood Design Manager (and design lead for this book). We're definitely going to take a look at adding that finesse trait back into the bladed scarf. That said, in your games, if you want to make adjustments to weapons, it is not a good idea to just take out any trait and replace it with any other trait, especially if the new trait is finesse or agile, and it is not a change we endorse for this weapon. In your home game, you'd be looking to remove probably disarm, for reasons graystone suggests, and then also either change the damage die to d6 or remove reach. Removing just disarm, or just sweep, does not leave the resulting weapon as a reasonable alternative to the elven curve blade or spiked chain (in fact, removing just sweep leaves you with literally a strictly more powerful weapon than the spiked chain that has all the same traits and also reach, and it is the less powerful of the two options). Of course, no change is official until we release errata, but that should help grok some of the possibilities at least.

As a side note, I really appreciate how well-balanced the weapons are in PF2. In PF1 I felt that particular combat styles almost forced you into particular weapons that were so much better than other choices. Now I usually find myself in the opposite situation where I have to choose between multiple weapons that each have particular benefits. That's a much better problem to have.

\I like the idea of keeping the reach at the expense of the disarm and damage die. It fits really well with how I envision bladed scarves being wielded where the dancer is difficult to approach and can lash out at some distance like a whip when they're in their battle dance.

I think I'd rather drop disarm and trip: reach and sweep would make it a viable non-elf alternative to the curved blade for a higher damage finesse weapon and would feel different from the whip and chain. Heck, even if you had to drop sweep too, a higher damage finesse weapon with reach is niche we don't have.

Cyrad wrote:

\I like the idea of keeping the reach at the expense of the disarm and damage die. It fits really well with how I envision bladed scarves being wielded where the dancer is difficult to approach and can lash out at some distance like a whip when they're in their battle dance.

I think I'd rather drop disarm and trip: reach and sweep would make it a viable non-elf alternative to the curved blade for a higher damage finesse weapon and would feel different from the whip and chain. Heck, even if you had to drop sweep too, a higher damage finesse weapon with reach is niche we don't have.

I agree on this with graystone on this one, seems like a good and elegant alternative

Any of the flexible weapons with dangerous bits attached to them should be advanced weapons and not just martial, so I think an advanced D8 finesse weapon with reach, and sweep, would be interesting. It also keeps it off of the spiked chain's feet because a D8 finesse weapon with reach and trip is just better in every way.

It does feel a bit odd that if the first finesse reach weapon is essentially "a weight on a string" (which is a really difficult weapon to use if the string is long) rather than just "a well balanced stick you can pole fight with." I'd really like something like spear dancing spiral back.

It does feel a bit odd that if the first finesse reach weapon

That's the whip in the CRB.

It does feel a bit odd that if the first finesse reach weapon is essentially "a weight on a string" (which is a really difficult weapon to use if the string is long)

that's not how it's described though. It's a scarf with "thin metal plates interwoven throughout" It's like a chain of plates: much less flexible than "a weight on a string".

rather than just "a well balanced stick you can pole fight with." I'd really like something like spear dancing spiral back.

I wouldn't mind an Elven branched spear too. IMO it could fill an advance finesse niche: something like reach, finesse, agile, elf.

I know it isn't super topical, but I would be curious what people could come up with to transfer the Bladed Scarf properties to. I definitely agree the scarf needs finesse, but what does a d8 disarm, sweep, reach, trip weapon look like? The Meteor Hammer is really close with backswing instead of sweep, so probably a flail of some kind. It can't just be a "Heavy Flail", because I feel like that would be conflated with the War Flail.

Disarm, Sweep, Reach, Trip sounds very much like a Kusarigama, Kyoketsu Shoge, Boarding Gaff, Double Chained Kama, or Flailpole.

Nine Section Whip also kind of fits as a 1 handed option.