Attacking a creature with Reach

So, the characters are on the ground, and here comes a giant@$$ dragon. The dragon stays in the air swiping with its claws from 15 feet away.

The guys with the longswords become little more than meat targets, until one of the says, "I want to hold my action until the Dragon attacks, then attack it's claw/arm".

How would you rule that? Any penalties? I can't see where someone couldn't do that, I was just wondering if anyone has run that situation differently than what I expect (which is, they hold their action and smack at the dragon...).

Not this again!

I'd rule no, you could not attack the dragon because it is not occupying the squares that it threatens. In addition, if I am correct, readied actions are preemptive, so the attack would occur before the dragon even reaches out to attack, leaving nothing to hit.

They're declaring that they're readying an action to attack the dragon as soon as the creature attacks them/comes within reach. That's how we did it on a prior occasion if I recall correctly. They only get one shot, so I'd suggest they make good use of Vital Strike, Power Attack, etc. It's a cinematic thing, let them do it. Otherwise they need missile weapons. Hope they brought them anyway, as this would be a painful way to bring down a dragon!

You can not hit a creature that you do not threaten. The game also does not allow for called shots. The only way to possibly hit the dragon is with the strike back feat.

Strike Back (Combat)

You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.

They're declaring that they're readying an action to attack the dragon as soon as the creature attacks them/comes within reach. That's how we did it on a prior occasion if I recall correctly. They only get one shot, so I'd suggest they make good use of Vital Strike, Power Attack, etc. It's a cinematic thing, let them do it. Otherwise they need missile weapons. Hope they brought them anyway, as this would be a painful way to bring down a dragon!

The OP is asking for a called shot that is not rules legal, not a shot at the dragon in general.

So, the characters are on the ground, and here comes a giant@$$ dragon. The dragon stays in the air swiping with its claws from 15 feet away.

The guys with the longswords become little more than meat targets, until one of the says, "I want to hold my action until the Dragon attacks, then attack it's claw/arm".

I always tell players to get ranged weapons.

The only way to possibly hit the dragon is with the strike back feat.

The existence of that feat in the Core Rulebook is pretty conclusive as to the legality of this. Either you have the feat, or you can't do it :)

You can not hit a creature that you do not threaten.

Well, when you cut it down to the core, the answer is really simple, eh?

Thanks all.

You can not hit a creature that you do not threaten. The game also does not allow for called shots. The only way to possibly hit the dragon is with the strike back feat.

Quote:

Strike Back (Combat)

That feat is a failing of pathfinder IMHO. A shining example of something that should not need a feat to accomplish. A High prerequisite feat at that.

Strike Back (Combat)

I'm inclined to agree. This was always a houserule, and anyone could do it. We don't treat it as a called shot because we don't treat the damage as doing anything a normal attack would do.

Though the existence of the feat definitely means that RAW you cannot do this without the feat.

I don't like the idea of being able to hit something that has reach. It kind of negates the point of having reach if someone can hit you anyway.

I don't like the idea of being able to hit something that has reach. It kind of negates the point of having reach if someone can hit you anyway.

For those who don't like needing the feat to be able to do it, consider allowing it by default with a -4 penalty to the attack which the feat itself would negate.

I don't like the idea of being able to hit something that has reach. It kind of negates the point of having reach if someone can hit you anyway.

Hardly, instead of taking the AoO to get to the being with reach, the character has to risk not being able to attack at all if the ready isn't triggered. Also readies, last i remembered* were supposed to be visually apparent, so most things will see you are planing something and react accordingly.

*though that was from the 3.0 or 3.5 DMG.

That said, I do think this feat was made to settle the rules issue because of feats such as Vital Strike.

You can not hit a creature that you do not threaten.

Technically, not quite true. Whips do not threaten, and you can hit with them. Page 149 of the Core Rulebook (emphasis mine):

A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

concerro wrote:

You can not hit a creature that you do not threaten.

Technically, not quite true. Whips do not threaten, and you can hit with them.

I think he's mixing the AoO rules with the ready rules. You have to threaten an area to get an AoO.

Jumping on the band wagon here, yep you can't hit the dragon if it's striking you from 15ft and you don't have a weapon with a range that far.

Either: Run to a covered position or try to distract it and play defense while the ranged attackers knock it down (requires fly checks to stay airborne while taking damage and all that, and hover taking negatives based on size and its type of fly speed - older dragons have poor flying).

wraithstrike wrote:

I don't like the idea of being able to hit something that has reach. It kind of negates the point of having reach if someone can hit you anyway.

Hardly, instead of taking the AoO to get to the being with reach, the character has to risk not being able to attack at all if the ready isn't triggered. Also readies, last i remembered* were supposed to be visually apparent, so most things will see you are planing something and react accordingly.

*though that was from the 3.0 or 3.5 DMG.

That said, I do think this feat was made to settle the rules issue because of feats such as Vital Strike.

They have no way of knowing what you are planning. If that was the case readying an action to set against a charge would not work. Readying an action to disrupt a spell would also not work. You could be setting up to hit them if they 5 foot step away or any number of things.

edit:Changed "him" to "hit"

concerro wrote:

You can not hit a creature that you do not threaten.

Technically, not quite true. Whips do not threaten, and you can hit with them. Page 149 of the Core Rulebook (emphasis mine):

A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Fair enough. You can't attack someone that your weapon can not reach is what I was trying to say. I don't feel to much pity for anyone who refuses to carry/use a ranged weapon though. The same applies to backup weapons.

They have no way of knowing what you are planning. If that was the case readying an action to set against a charge would not work. Readying an action to disrupt a spell would also not work. You could be setting up to him them if they 5 foot step away or any number of things.

+1.

Aside: Though I did write a topic in the general forum that "modified" the current ready vs charge as written because it's so very restricting and many people already use the broadened proposal in their games.

They have no way of knowing what you are planning. If that was the case readying an action to set against a charge would not work. Readying an action to disrupt a spell would also not work. You could be setting up to hit them if they 5 foot step away or any number of things.

I would rule that if someone is readying an action, it is apparent (a) that they are readying, and (b) what type of action it is. If you're readying an attack, it's obvious that you're readying an attack, but it's not obvious that you intend to use that attack for a Sunder maneuver. If you're readying a spell, it's obvious that you're readying a spell, but not what spell.

As for this nullifying setting vs charge, I don't see the problem. You're holding a spear and clearly getting ready to use it. The point there is not to surprise your opponent with a double-damage poke, it's to tell him "charging me is a stupid idea, so don't do it." Mission accomplished.

Edit: the triggering action isn't known either. But if you're readying an action to interrupt a spell by shooting an arrow at the caster, the visual representation of that is "nocking an arrow, pulling back the string, and scanning the battlefield." Your opponent doesn't know <i>what</I> you're scanning for, but it's clear that you're just waiting for the right moment to let that arrow fly.

As for this nullifying setting vs charge, I don't see the problem. You're holding a spear and clearly getting ready to use it. The point there is not to surprise your opponent with a double-damage poke, it's to tell him "charging me is a stupid idea, so don't do it." Mission accomplished.

However, if the enemy walks up to you and slaps you in the face your readied action = useless. Thus Brace would almost never come into play and it is always better to ready an attack vs an opponent in range.

I prefer to modify this and say if your readied attack hits a character that happens to be charging (and you are wielding a brace weapon) then you can do double damage. Get some milage out of brace.

Like I said above, many people already implement a similar rule and I was surprised to see that this was quite so wide spread.

It does not work.

There is a feat that lets you do this.

Strike Back (Combat)

You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.

-without that feat you can't do it.

It does not work.

There is a feat that lets you do this.

Strike Back (Combat)

You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.

-without that feat you can't do it.

By RAW its clear the designers intended you not to be able to hit someone outside your reach, but by GM fiat (aka house rule), I believe many the GM will allow a single readied action to attack a creature's limbs as they enter your square to attack.

To me its akin to making a ready action to attack an Incorporal creature that is in a wall. You can't attack him (similar to a creature with reach), but you can attack as it reaches into your square (same as a creature with reach).

I argue that its actually easier to attack the creature with reach because you can see the giant limb swinging towards you, unlike an Incorporal creature's limb inside a wall you only see when they leaves the wall.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

It does not work.

There is a feat that lets you do this.

Strike Back (Combat)

You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.

-without that feat you can't do it.

By RAW its clear the designers intended you not to be able to hit someone outside your reach, but by GM fiat (aka house rule), I believe many the GM will allow a single readied action to attack a creature's limbs as they enter your square to attack.

To me its akin to making a ready action to attack an Incorporal creature that is in a wall. You can't attack him (similar to a creature with reach), but you can attack as it reaches into your square (same as a creature with reach).

I argue that its actually easier to attack the creature with reach because you can see the giant limb swinging towards you, unlike an Incorporal creature's limb inside a wall you only see when they leaves the wall.

I would not say many GM's. I have never played under one that would allow it, and I would not allow it.

An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.