Tropes vs. Women in Video Games Kickstarter -- and the hate it's received

Not to add fuel to the argument ...

I'm not sure where I stand on Tropes Vs. Women, but the death threats are completely inappropriate. I hope that justice comes to the cowards who threaten her anonymously.

The first installment has been released.

Article here.

And link to first segment.

Enjoy!

Article here.

And link to first segment.

Enjoy!

It is quite good, but I do see two problems with her video.

Jeff Erwin wrote:

Article here.

And link to first segment.

Enjoy!

It is quite good, but I do see two problems with her video.

She focuses too much on one company (Nintendo).

She uses some feminist/women's studies jargon that was not actually necessary. (This is likely to confuse some viewers.)

On the first point, the sense I got was that other companies would be discussed in Part II. Nintendo was pretty important in the industry and in pop culture back in the '80s, though.

Lord Fyre wrote:

Jeff Erwin wrote:

Article here.

And link to first segment.

Enjoy!

It is quite good, but I do see two problems with her video.

She focuses too much on one company (Nintendo).

She uses some feminist/women's studies jargon that was not actually necessary. (This is likely to confuse some viewers.)

On the first point, the sense I got was that other companies would be discussed in Part II. Nintendo was pretty important in the industry and in pop culture back in the '80s, though.

While possible, adding an example or two from another company (and there were others, like Sega) would have reduced a perception of bias against one publisher.

When dealing with a potentially hostile audience, it pays to give some thought to making your message as clear as possible. :)

There is a reason I don't play video games anymore.

In most video games all characters are horrible cardboard cut outs. This won't be fix till they actualy get people who can write compelling stories.

Sidenote. Of my limited video game playing days I though the female officer from Halo 2 was a strong female character that was not overtly sexualized. I can't remember her name.

Obviously you haven't played a lot of the games i played...

Jeff Erwin wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

Jeff Erwin wrote:

Article here.

And link to first segment.

Enjoy!

It is quite good, but I do see two problems with her video.

She focuses too much on one company (Nintendo).

She uses some feminist/women's studies jargon that was not actually necessary. (This is likely to confuse some viewers.)

On the first point, the sense I got was that other companies would be discussed in Part II. Nintendo was pretty important in the industry and in pop culture back in the '80s, though.

While possible, adding an example or two from another company (and there were others, like Sega) would have reduced a perception of bias against one publisher.

When dealing with a potentially hostile audience, it pays to give some thought to making your message as clear as possible. :)

Those hostile to her ideas have already proved, with great bellicosity, that they won't listen to anything she has to say.

This is not a softly-softly-catchy-monkey approach to a cultural conflict (like, say, To Kill a Mockingbird). It is an analytical gathering of evidence and ideas which will allow many others to fight their corner cogently.

Masive over-simplification warning!
You'll never turn the hardcore, to create culutural change.
1. Problematise: it isn't 'the way things are', it is a problem.
2. Embolden and arm your allies (to take the fight and not sit quietly).
3. Engage the uninvolved: show people who shrug shoulders and move on that they should join your stand.
4. Isolate and ridicule the hardcore as out-of-touch and stupid.

Eventually the hardcore should succumbing to social pressure to keep their crazy views to themselves and their grandchildren will look on them with a mixture of contempt and pity.

I liked it. I even went and watched some of her other videos just to see what else she has to say. And I agreed with every video except one.

She does highlight that though we have come very far in equal rights we have a long way yet to go.

Speaking on behalf of my wife, she agrees with pretty much everything written so far.

She also wanted to point out rather happily about the new direction and look that the Tomb Raider series is taking with Lara Croft. You know ... where she looks like a real-ish woman and not stuffing watermelons for snacks later.

Maybe there's hope yet.

That hope gets quickly dashed when you listen to trade chat on any MMORG or other game server.

Masive over-simplification warning!
You'll never turn the hardcore, to create culutural change.
1. Problematise: it isn't 'the way things are', it is a problem.
2. Embolden and arm your allies (to take the fight and not sit quietly).
3. Engage the uninvolved: show people who shrug shoulders and move on that they should join your stand.
4. Isolate and ridicule the hardcore as out-of-touch and stupid.

Eventually the hardcore should succumbing to social pressure to keep their crazy views to themselves and their grandchildren will look on them with a mixture of contempt and pity.

That is correct. You never will turn the hardcore. the measure of progress however is that the ideals of the hardcore pass from being mainstream to fringe. That you can't hang Jim Crow signs on your restaurant. That baby changing stations are now found in mens rooms. That accomodation is being made for those not conforming to traditional gender assignments.

Women will be the last oppressed group to receive equal treatment, precisely because they are not a minority, and because the oppression goes back to pre-history and pervades almost every aspect of every society. It's the hardest oppression to see, in many ways, because it is everywhere, happening to everyone every day. It's so big it's hard to wrap your head around it, and so pervasive it requires everyone to change fundamentally how they act and think. That's much harder to do than to change the way a minority group is treated.

It's really hard to see the pervasiveness of sexism in our society. Many people think they aren't sexist, both men and women, but in fact perpetuate oppression unintentionally. And as the horrific reactions Sarkeesian received show, many people lash out aggressively when told they or the things they identify with may be part of the problem, rather than spend time examining the arguments to see if they're true. I'm really glad she is making these videos, because these are issues people need to think about. VIdeo games are important, and becoming more so. Hopefully we can avoid video games becoming as sexist as virtually all mainstream movies.

Remember the rules of thumb questions when watching films:
1) Is there more than one named female character?
2) Do these characters have any conversations?
3) Are these conversations about something other than men?

I guarantee you will be shocked when you start using this criteria (and note that a positive response does not by any means mean the movie is not sexist). The same questions could well be asked of many video games. Imagine if we lived in a world where we had to ask these questions, but with the genders reversed. Or imagine, for a moment, a movie in which the unattractive girl gets the hot guy (I can't think of a single example, at least not where it isn't a joke, largely because while a male actor can get by on being funny or talented alone, a woman has a much harder time doing so). Or ask yourself how many magazine covers you saw with a half-naked woman on the cover, versus a half-naked man? What does this say about our culture, and about us as individuals that we are a part of it?

The simple lack of attention or initiative given to a subsection of a culture is critical to their own self identity. Think about how geeks and nerds have come out of the shadows in the past fifteen years and gained mainstream cultural icons. This makes us proud, and shows we're not inferior to mainstream society. Conversely, think of the famous Clarks' "Doll Test" that demonstrated that segregation caused African-American children to internalize racism - one of the critical factors in the Supreme Court's decision to end "separate but equal" with Brown vs the Board of Education. The same sort of experiment could well be conducted regarding women, and I imagine there would be telling results.

These sorts of things are endemic in our culture. They are being discussed by feminists when it comes to literature and film, but not so much video games. Good for Sarkeesian for highlighting the problems in an under-studied medium.

Remember the rules of thumb questions when watching films:

1) Is there more than one named female character?
2) Do these characters have any conversations?
3) Are these conversations about something other than men?

I guarantee you will be shocked when you start using this criteria (and note that a positive response does not by any means mean the movie is not sexist).

However, a negative response doesn't automatically make it sexist, either.

Azazyll wrote:

Remember the rules of thumb questions when watching films:

1) Is there more than one named female character?
2) Do these characters have any conversations?
3) Are these conversations about something other than men?

I guarantee you will be shocked when you start using this criteria (and note that a positive response does not by any means mean the movie is not sexist).

However, a negative response doesn't automatically make it sexist, either.

No, it doesn't. It's actually not all that useful for looking at a single movie.

What's interesting about the Bechdel test is when you look at patterns across many movies. Any one movie failing this test isn't significant. That so many do, is.

Remember the rules of thumb questions when watching films:
1) Is there more than one named female character?

I would add a qualifier to that.

A movie might only be about 1 person. And for that case I would add if their is more then one named male character is their also more then one named female character.

That hope gets quickly dashed when you listen to trade chat on any MMORG or other game server.

You hit the point I was going to make after reading this and several other great discussions (Mostly here on Paizo, which is something that I think makes them stand out as leader in the Gaming community)

My housemate recently asked me to join him on Tera since it had gone free to play recently and after spend a little bit of time in the starting areas where you get both area and global chat. The attitudes held by a lot of vocal people there are a prime example of why Anita's videos and other publications are sorely needed. [Just for clarification I don't think I will be going back there]

I will say that, had I seen that kind of thing in chats say 2-3 year ago I would have laughed and joined in. However now after people like Jessica Price and Anita have spoken out, I have looked at the problem from both sides and realised that I was one of those people that were a part of the problem. Even if I didn't actively join in, I didn't speak against it and therefore giving silent consent to let to continue.

I will admit that when I play a game I do like to have something good to look at, but if there is no real character or force behind the face then I start looking elsewhere.

Perhaps that is why I have enjoyed things like Hunted, Redemption of Althulas (or that matter a lot of David and Leigh Eddings books) Jennifer Fallon's Demon Child trilogy.

I personally think that sometimes it is as simple as making someone realise that there is a problem and they can take it from there, but like others have said here that are those that will continue to threaten, posture and attack the very idea because they don't like to think they could be wrong or that their perceived sense of superiority as being threatened. I just hope that they can open their ears and their minds and realise one basic truth, We are all human and are the same deep within our spirits.

"Or ask yourself how many magazine covers you saw with a half-naked woman on the cover, versus a half-naked man?"

Funny, but when I think of (non-porno) magazines, it is the women's mags that have half naked women on the covers, and the sports and body building mags that have half naked men. It seems that sexy women are effective at selling to men and other women. Powerful (wealthy) men also seem to have universal sales appeal, although it is a little more difficult to convey power vs sex appeal.

I see frequent discrimination in media, but it seems that several factors make it more complex. It doesn't take much in our culture to knock someone from icon to - god forbid - human. All a women needs is a few physical flaws, or for the man to be short, and they are right off the front page.

I guess my point is that media presents a super shallow and superficial version of things. After all, it is aimed at selling to people who are weak minded enough to buy based on these images. While sexism is a part of it, it goes deeper into the brain and our desires for belonging, acceptance, success, etc.

Although it is not relevant to how women are portrayed in games, and could be considered a distraction from said point, I'd like to leave a link for those interested:

Infidel, by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

One of the most important books I've ever read. I'm sure some of you are familiar with it, but for those that aren't--read it! It's very good.

Although it is not relevant to how women are portrayed in games, and could be considered a distraction from said point, I'd like to leave a link for those interested:

Infidel, by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

One of the most important books I've ever read. I'm sure some of you are familiar with it, but for those that aren't--read it! It's very good.

Yeah, I'd be careful with that woman. She's not exactly known for her cool and detached method of analysis when it comes to her favorite topic.

It's also off-topic.

I have to believe that Ms. Sarkeesian would approve of this rejiggering of Donkey Kong that a dad did for his daughter -- I just had to share.

Best. Geek. Dad. Ever.

I personally think it's mostly her opinion. She does have a good one as there are MANY games that do exactly what she says, but there are also many other games that have women who break the trend.

I find that it's more common in movies that women are portrayed in the same boring way and in my experience more videogames, than movies per percentage break the trend, but that's my opinion.

I personally think it's mostly her opinion. She does have a good one as there are MANY games that do exactly what she says, but there are also many other games that have women who break the trend.

I find that it's more common in movies that women are portrayed in the same boring way and in my experience more videogames, than movies per percentage break the trend, but that's my opinion.

So because not every video game follows the first trope she covers in a series on different tropes used you feel she doesn't have a point? She hasn't even made the second half of her case for this trope being common, since she is covering modern games in the next one. But I am hard pressed to think of a video game with a female character that has not contained this trope that I have played. I can think of 3, Samus and Lara easily fall into other tropes, and Jade is a stand out star from a minor studio for bucking the trend.

So in the other thread that's been kind of derailed into uselessness, Lord Fyre made what I feel is a legitimate complaint about Sarkeesian's videos. Namely, they speak from the perspective of a feminist to feminists, and those individuals who might be interested in listening and learning from outside of the feminist circle might find themselves lacking an understanding of certain things.

To that end I thought I'd offer myself as an answer point for any particulars relating to "Feminism 101" kind of topics that might arise from these videos. I'm no expert, but I might be able to shed SOME illumination on the topic.

FAIR WARNING: I'm not going to answer to things that want to devolve into an argument about feminist principles ("but men experience X Y Z too!"). You are 110% entirely more than welcome to disagree with feminism's stances on certain things. I encourage you to mull them over and come to your own conclusions. But I want to help people understand Sarkeesian's arguments and point of view, not debate whether feminism is correct or not.

Side note: I speak from a sex-positive third-wave feminist perspective; YMMV...

So in the other thread that's been kind of derailed into uselessness, Lord Fyre made what I feel is a legitimate complaint about Sarkeesian's videos. Namely, they speak from the perspective of a feminist to feminists, and those individuals who might be interested in listening and learning from outside of the feminist circle might find themselves lacking an understanding of certain things.

To that end I thought I'd offer myself as an answer point for any particulars relating to "Feminism 101" kind of topics that might arise from these videos. I'm no expert, but I might be able to shed SOME illumination on the topic.

FAIR WARNING: I'm not going to answer to things that want to devolve into an argument about feminist principles ("but men experience X Y Z too!"). You are 110% entirely more than welcome to disagree with feminism's stances on certain things. I encourage you to mull them over and come to your own conclusions. But I want to help people understand Sarkeesian's arguments and point of view, not debate whether feminism is correct or not.

Side note: I speak from a sex-positive third-wave feminist perspective; YMMV...

See, now I generally regard myself as a feminist.

Then someone starts describing it like you need qualifications to know what it is and I start doubting myself.

Maybe I'm just a "respectful, decent and fair-minded-ist"?

If you regard yourself as a feminist then you probably are. :)

I'm sorry if I made it seem like you need to have a PhD in the topic to speak about it. Not at all! I just want to share knowledge to people who might not know so much about feminism. Heck, there's a lot of stuff that I'm not clear on either. It's difficult to assimilate such a wide variety of often conflicting ideas spreading over more than a century!

And if someone else wants to speak up and explain that's even better. I just wanted to make it clear that if someone has a question I'd be more than happy to answer. :P

If this is about the labels I used, they are pretty silly labels that other people have come up with that generally describes what I already agreed with. It's probably not relevant for most "Third wave" basically means "modern" (first wave: fighting for the vote; second wave: fighting for equality in the work force) and "sex-positive" basically means not having a problem with pornography, sex, sexuality, etc.

Maybe I'm just a "respectful, decent and fair-minded-ist"?

You realize that anyone who is "respectful, decent, and fair-minded" will be sympathetic to feminism, if not outright feminist. :)

See, now I generally regard myself as a feminist.

Then someone starts describing it like you need qualifications to know what it is and I start doubting myself.

Maybe I'm just a "respectful, decent and fair-minded-ist"?

I had similar worries, though it wasn't about questions of qualifications.

For a while, I was reading several feminist blogs. A number of them, however, had a tone - or perhaps the better word is "undercurrent" - in the writing that I found to be somewhat hostile. To put it another way, there seemed to be an indication of "if you're not as upset about this as I am, then you're not just foolish, but likely also part of the problem."

I personally didn't care for that implication, since I kept feeling like I was being challenged to either move into what I felt like was a more extreme mindset, or admit to myself that I wasn't "as much" of a feminist as I liked to think I was.

In the end, I simply stopped reading those blogs; I feel a lot less angst (about that particular issue) now.

There's a looooooot of stuff in the feminist blogosphere in particular that leaves me with a similarly bad after-taste.

Like every movement, very often the loudest and most outspoken members represent the fringes rather than the middle line that most people agree on...

I honestly have nothing against feminism. Fighting for equal rights (where applicable of course) is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
What i can't stand, however, are those feminist extremists...and unfortunately, those idiots are the loudest, and thus leave the impression that all feminists are loud, opinionated, sexist bigots.
I'm really said that it is so.
I also love it when women call such people on their BS.

There's a looooooot of stuff in the feminist blogosphere in particular that leaves me with a similarly bad after-taste.

Like every movement, very often the loudest and most outspoken members represent the fringes rather than the middle line that most people agree on...

Truth.

DM Aron Marczylo wrote:

I personally think it's mostly her opinion. She does have a good one as there are MANY games that do exactly what she says, but there are also many other games that have women who break the trend.

I find that it's more common in movies that women are portrayed in the same boring way and in my experience more videogames, than movies per percentage break the trend, but that's my opinion.

So because not every video game follows the first trope she covers in a series on different tropes used you feel she doesn't have a point? She hasn't even made the second half of her case for this trope being common, since she is covering modern games in the next one. But I am hard pressed to think of a video game with a female character that has not contained this trope that I have played. I can think of 3, Samus and Lara easily fall into other tropes, and Jade is a stand out star from a minor studio for bucking the trend.

ahh i miss Beyond Good and Evil...there was a teaser about a sequal several years back but all they seem to have done is just made a HD version...which I've also completed lol.

Yeah I admit there are far more tropes and I do struggle to think of ones that don't fit in and i'm not sure that games like Dragon Age or ME count since you play a female so their behaviour is down to you and not what the creators had in mind.

You'd think the number of games i've played my life I could think up more, but it's a real struggle. Lilianna was quite a tough and intependent person in DAO imo. Same with Ashley Williams in ME.

*sigh* shame a lot of good bioware was known for might be tossed in the wind by EA and all their female character will become the cliche that hollywood seems somewhat proud of.

There's a looooooot of stuff in the feminist blogosphere in particular that leaves me with a similarly bad after-taste.

Like every movement, very often the loudest and most outspoken members represent the fringes rather than the middle line that most people agree on...

yeah, the ones who are extreme make me feel somewhat uncomfortable. As the opinion highlighted here by Foamy the squirrel.

I'm the same I always hold the door open, but it's out of just being polite, not because I think "oh, a woman couldn't open a door by herself" or some Macho BS.

There's a looooooot of stuff in the feminist blogosphere in particular that leaves me with a similarly bad after-taste.

Like every movement, very often the loudest and most outspoken members represent the fringes rather than the middle line that most people agree on...

Where would you put Anita Sarkeesian?

I honestly have nothing against feminism. Fighting for equal rights (where applicable of course) is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

What i can't stand, however, are those feminist extremists...and unfortunately, those idiots are the loudest, and thus leave the impression that all feminists are loud, opinionated, sexist bigots.

Unfortunately, as a reaction to the Political Actions (See the "War on Women") of several "Conservative Extremist Lawmakers" (at both U.S. Federal and State levels) the extreme reaction of feminists may be at least partially justified.

@Fyre, I haven't watched all of Sarkeesian's videos, but I don't think she is particularly militant or extreme.

@Aron, yeah, I agree, it really is just a respect thing. I open doors for other people, people open doors for me. I get mildly irritated if someone doesn't hold the door open for me because it breaks one of those unspoken social rules of politeness.

That said, I can kind of understand the feminist point of view as well... Since changing into a Computer Science degree and being around more men on campus, I've noticed that men will hold open doors for me or let me go first through places even when it's slightly more inconvenient for them to do so - e.g., standing back and holding the door open for me to go first instead of just walking through and keeping one hand on it until I can keep it open to walk behind them, kind of thing. (That was a terrible explanation, I hope you get what I'm saying.) And it bothers me to a degree.

I know it's not malicious. I don't get offended whatsoever. In fact I'm sure many people do it to everyone just out of extra politeness. But in a lot of cases it's just one of those learned behaviours that ever so slightly reinforces gender roles that makes you sigh just a little before moving on.

I haven't seen all of her videos, but I've watched a few. Most seem pretty sane, but there were two or three where, in my opinion, she ventured into crazy-land.

@Fyre, I haven't watched all of Sarkeesian's videos, but I don't think she is particularly militant or extreme.

That has been my read too. Though the "Game of Patriarchy" segment was a little weird.

@Alice_Margatroid: I do that because of my Bodyguard Training nothing to do wth Gender Roles. (I was trained in being a Rear-Guard.)

And she is a bit Extreme from what I can tell.

And she is a bit Extreme from what I can tell.

Really?

Of course, the "chivalrous" behavior of her critics will do nothing to moderate her positions. :(

She might be "extreme" as compared to "average non-feminist" but as far as it goes she's pretty mild. I agree with most things I've seen from her and I consider myself a not-particularly-extreme liberal type.

And yeah, considering the shit she gets it's not surprising she might lash back at people from time to time. That beat-up game is one of the most disturbing things I've seen. Seriously sickening.

It is one thing for her to react. I am not referring to her blog but rather to some other things she has done. She isn't innocent of DDOSíng or promoting it.

She actually promoted it and participated in it in response to a Game Developer announcing a Game that she felt had female characters, including the heroine of the game, that portrayed a degrading image of women.

I will try to dig this story up. I know about it because I helped out with the Game. It is still in the works as a PSN/Xbox Digital Game though I think a demo is now available though I don't know what name is used.

It should also be noted that the items I referenced are within the first 2-3 Levels and that the game is currently going to be Rated M. It is a Zombie Survival Sandbox Game with emphasis on Survival and Stealth over the Run and Gun that a lot of them end up being.

Unfortunately, as a reaction to the Political Actions (See the "War on Women") of several "Conservative Extremist Lawmakers" (at both U.S. Federal and State levels) the extreme reaction of feminists may be at least partially justified.

As a person that leans a little to the right I am actualy pro-choice and for gay marriage...etc. But I am tired of because I don't think the goverment should fund certain things that has to do lifestyle choice I get labeled as attacking women. My response is sure you have every right to do that...why do I have to pay for it though?

Note: Except for Planned Parenthood. That I think should be supported...maybe revamped a little.

Sure there extremeist on the right that want to do exactly that...as there extremist feminism. But saying no to goverment spending...is not saying no to the right. Personaly I think we will see a change the republican party in the US...atleast I am hoping so(heck something like 70 Republicans signed on to the case supporting gay marriage going before the supreme court). No body hate the Religious Right as much as I do.

On the other side though...ever notice when a Liberal man calls a conversative women a 'slut' you don't see outrage by the feminists groups. Should not feminists represent all women.

Sorry to get off topic here. And while I may not agree to the broad generalites Anita Sarkeesian expouses she does have a point. And the...things that dwell on the internet that threaten murder, rape and other things are the scum of the Earth.

People play Mario Bros and 80's Nintendo games for the plot like people read Penthouse for the articles.

@Fyre, I haven't watched all of Sarkeesian's videos, but I don't think she is particularly militant or extreme.

@Aron, yeah, I agree, it really is just a respect thing. I open doors for other people, people open doors for me. I get mildly irritated if someone doesn't hold the door open for me because it breaks one of those unspoken social rules of politeness.

That said, I can kind of understand the feminist point of view as well... Since changing into a Computer Science degree and being around more men on campus, I've noticed that men will hold open doors for me or let me go first through places even when it's slightly more inconvenient for them to do so - e.g., standing back and holding the door open for me to go first instead of just walking through and keeping one hand on it until I can keep it open to walk behind them, kind of thing. (That was a terrible explanation, I hope you get what I'm saying.) And it bothers me to a degree.

I know it's not malicious. I don't get offended whatsoever. In fact I'm sure many people do it to everyone just out of extra politeness. But in a lot of cases it's just one of those learned behaviours that ever so slightly reinforces gender roles that makes you sigh just a little before moving on.

I don't see why that's a problem to be honest. I reason it like this:

I hold elevator doors for women, and I hold them for men too.

Standing when a woman stand is kinda odd. Never really understood it. Is it apprehension? Possessiveness? (Where you going?) A display of solidarity? I've no clue--don't really understand why it's supposed to be polite.

Because if she stands and leaves and you are with her you are expected to follow. Originally it was only the Men, and Women, who came with the one who stands and only when she doesn't make it clear she will be back. So if she makes it clear to you that she is using the restroom you are not expected to stand but if she doesn't then you are expected to follow suit.

I'd feel really uncomfortable if someone felt like they had to stand up and help me with my coat, unless I was obviously struggling for whatever reason... it might be out of chivalry or niceness or whatever, but it's still kind of weird to me.

Holding doors is one thing (because it's really rude to let a door slam in someone's face or let the elevator close when someone's clearly running towards it) but helping with someone's coat or chair... yeah, no. Maybe it's because I'm fairly young, but if anyone did that kind of thing for me I'd feel really weirded out. Like, personal space intrusion kind of weirded out.

And after all, you wouldn't do that for a guy (I assume), so why do you do that for a woman? The reason is because of learned behaviours related to gender roles more than anything else. And a lot of chivalry stems from treating women as weaker than men... so yeah, feminists often take affront to it.

EDIT: I'd also note I've never seen anyone stand when a woman stands / help her with her jacket or chair. So it might be an age thing. (Thank god!)

It would be weird if they aren't explicitly connected to you. But what of a Boyfriend, Brother, or Similar? That is what the Chivalry Side is about.

I'd feel really uncomfortable if someone felt like they had to stand up and help me with my coat, unless I was obviously struggling for whatever reason... it might be out of chivalry or niceness or whatever, but it's still kind of weird to me.

Holding doors is one thing (because it's really rude to let a door slam in someone's face or let the elevator close when someone's clearly running towards it) but helping with someone's coat or chair... yeah, no. Maybe it's because I'm fairly young, but if anyone did that kind of thing for me I'd feel really weirded out. Like, personal space intrusion kind of weirded out.

And after all, you wouldn't do that for a guy (I assume), so why do you do that for a woman? The reason is because of learned behaviours related to gender roles more than anything else. And a lot of chivalry stems from treating women as weaker than men... so yeah, feminists often take affront to it.

EDIT: I'd also note I've never seen anyone stand when a woman stands / help her with her jacket or chair. So it might be an age thing. (Thank god!)

It also has a root cause that women are more important than man to a society.

Standing when somebody leaves is a sign or respect. You will see it in courts and such when a king leaves a room...or a judge enter or leaves a room people are expected to stand.

Men are taught never to hit a women...not because they a weaker but because they are more important than you. I mean the old saying of 'Never getting between a Mother Bear and her cub"...or "Hell has no fury like a women scorned" don't seem to me to stae women are weaker.

I am not saying men have not mutated this to be 'women are weaker'. Or even that now women are more important than men...and we don't need to change this. But to put as chivalry as means to oppress women...I don't think is entirely accurate.