Most advantageous wildshape forms? (optimization)

I'm not very familiar with the newer bestiary stuff, and I just cracked 12 on my druid, so I'm looking for advice on which forms are the most optimal. I've got a spreadsheet I'm working off of in my game (iPad / Numbers) that will do some of the pre-wildshape math for me, because it's horrid to try and do on the fly, so I want to enter some forms in it that are obvious/typical/advantageous.

Here's what I've pulled so far, many from Treatmonk's Druid guide, but his guide as best as I'm aware hasn't been updated for any new beastiary stuff:

Deinonychus (med animal) speed/attacks
Dire Ape (large animal) nice attacks, climb
Dire Tiger (large animal) pounce/rake overall very nice form
Stegosaurus (huge animal) love that tail
Triceratops (huge animal) nice attack
Elephant (huge animal) not going to freak the peasants out

Giant Octopus (large animal) land speed, 9 attacks
Giant Squid (huge animal) jet, reach, constrict, ink cloud
Elsamosaurus (huge animal) land speed, big dice on the bite

Bat (diminutive animal) stealthy, blindsense, flight, good for night scouting
Eagle (small animal) nice flight, not going to scare the pesants, good day scouting form
Pternaodon (large animal) one of the better aerial combat nature forms

All Elemental Forms are quality, and basically where you stay at most of the time.

So here some gaping holes, that I'm wondering if anyone has any advice about filling:

First hole: Plant forms?

Treant crit range and DR is nice. Is it worth it to take on fire vulnerability?
Tendrilicus has Regeneration, attacks leave something to be desired but seems like a good 'heal yourself' downtime form?
Quickwood form would have resistance to fire and electricity, also has 4 attacks
Moonflower has DR 10/slashing and pulls two immunities, but still lands the fire vulnerability

None of those is overwhelmingly cool, but they're not bad. Is there another that I'm missing that's quality? Is there another form with regeneration other than the Tendrilicus?

Second Hole: Magical Beasts?

Any advice here? I haven't looked heavily at them yet but it seems like Chimera, Winter Wolf, and Girallon might be worth a hard look.

Ability holes:

Web? Does any form anywhere have web?
Roar? Is Dragonne it?
Breath Weapon?
What form has the best poison?
Anything else with regen other than the Tendrilicus?

I've found Badger form to be remarkably advantageous. There's a nice racial bonus to escape artist checks to get out of a grapple, and then there's a burrow speed, meaning that if you're attacked by something, you can easily escape by going underground, since most creatures do not have burrowing ability.

Tree Shape, as per the spell, is also remarkably useful when dealing with annoying things like undead, since you can even take the form of a dead tree. *POOF* There's a spooky old dead tree in the middle of the undead infested cemetery. You have no brains, no blood, no flesh, and so far as vampires are concerned, you're a giant wooden stake.

Ooo, just found Gorgon. That's a large magical beast with a rockstar breath weapon.

id love a copy of that spreadsheet if you are open to that

I believe that druids are limited to animal, elemental and plant forms.

Wild Shape (Su): At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animaland back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal with which the druid is familiar.

So no Magical Beasts

That aside, the Allosaurus is a great huge animal form if you are out in the open. Huge + Pounce + Rake + Grab

Just dotting this thread.

I believe that druids are limited to animal, elemental and plant forms.

Wild Shape (Su): At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animaland back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal with which the druid is familiar.

So no Magical Beasts

That aside, the Allosaurus is a great huge animal form if you are out in the open. Huge + Pounce + Rake + Grab

Aaaahhhh crap. Good catch, dangit, that blows. Stripping Magical Beast out of the lists, are there any druid wildshape options for:

Roar
Breath Weapon
Spikes
Web
Regen outside of Tendrillicus?
?

Adding Allosaurus to the queue.

id love a copy of that spreadsheet if you are open to that

I'm still new to iPad gaming. Is there an easy way to get the iPad Numbers spreadsheet file over to dropbox for hosting or something? I guess I've got to pull it off my iPad using iTunes or something? Suggestions for sharing it? It's not really 'done,' but getting pretty close to semi-final.

I`m not sure... I think there`s a new option allowing Vermin Shape (¿or was that just Companions?), so Spiders would definitely allow Web... I know that James Jacobs has said that a new, Spike-shooting Dinosaur will be in Bestiary 3, which covers that. I`m not sure about Roar, and defintely not Breath Weapon, but I am basically expecting Paizo to both create new creatures which implement stuff like this, along with creating new variants/specific spells allowing access to Magical Beasts, etc, along with increased # of abilities (e.g. Ankylosaurus woould be awesome if you could gain Stun...) Wildshape-focused stuff seems plausible to fit into Ultimate Combat, though I`m not actually sure if much about it will be in that book.

Which incidentally brings up one of the wierdnesses of PRPG Polymorph:

Polymorph says ALL abilities gained use the CASTING STAT to determine DC`s, which pretty much runs counter to the main theme of PRPG Polymorph, namely that you need decently good physical stats to get really impressive Polymorphed physical stats. IMHO, abilities with (STR, CON, rarely DEX) derived DC`s should continue to use those, while only (INT, WIS, CHA) derived DC`s should use the `Casting Stat`... But that is counter to RAW (I wouldn`t mind an Errata on that, though)

The outcome is that if you want to have a STR-focused Druid focusing on tough melee forms, anyh special STR-based abilities they might gain will use WIS for the DC. Vice-versa, a WIS-focused Druid who dumps STR, will actually have hugely powerful DCs for `physical based abilities` even though their `vanilla` melee prowess will be very weak.

Abilities that I^m talking about:
breath weapon, poison, trample, web, and roar(?)

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

id love a copy of that spreadsheet if you are open to that

I'm still new to iPad gaming. Is there an easy way to get the iPad Numbers spreadsheet file over to dropbox for hosting or something? I guess I've got to pull it off my iPad using iTunes or something? Suggestions for sharing it? It's not really 'done,' but getting pretty close to semi-final.

I don't think their is a doc sharing area, but I support than Idea. You can email it though.

vampiricspacemonkey@yahoo.com

If there's a Vermin Shape option, particularly for a straight "traditional path" druid, please point me to it. Haven't seen that yet.

Which incidentally brings up one of the wierdnesses of PRPG Polymorph:

Polymorph says ALL abilities gained use the CASTING STAT to determine DC`s, which pretty much runs counter to the main theme of PRPG Polymorph, namely that you need decently good physical stats to get really impressive Polymorphed physical stats. IMHO, abilities with (STR, CON, rarely DEX) derived DC`s should continue to use those, while only (INT, WIS, CHA) derived DC`s should use the `Casting Stat`... But that is counter to RAW (I wouldn`t mind an Errata on that, though)

Huh?

Int Wis and Cha don't change when you wildshape, only physical stats do, and the physical stats change according to whatever it says on Beast(/plant/etc) Shape. I really have no idea what you're talking about here.

I don't think their is a doc sharing area, but I support than Idea. You can email it though.

vampiricspacemonkey@yahoo.com

I'll try to figure out how to host a download once I get it cleaned up. It's sort of a hodge podge of different excel sheets imported to Numbers, and it's not as clean as I would have made it if I was starting from scratch knowing what the capabilities of Numbers are, but it's not terrible. I'd love it if someone vetted it for errors, it's rather complicated. I'll try to get it up in the next couple of days.

Tendrilicous is quite a nice form, actually. If only you also got Swallow Hole with plant shape it'd be very keen. I presume its Regeneration gets dialed back to 5, and I'm guessing that the paralysis acid doesn't count as "poison" so you probably don't gain that on a wildshape either. But 3 attacks with 15 foot reach and Grab, and Regen 5 ain't all bad.

If there's a Vermin Shape option, particularly for a straight "traditional path" druid, please point me to it. Haven't seen that yet.

Like I said, I could have been mixing it up with Vermin Companion optins...

Huh?

Int Wis and Cha don't change when you wildshape, only physical stats do, and the physical stats change according to whatever it says on Beast(/plant/etc) Shape. I really have no idea what you're talking about here.

Huh? ;-)

I never suggested INT/WIS/CHA change when Wildshaped, (though other Polymorph effects COULD do so)
or suggeted that STR/DEX/CON function any differently than Beast Shape directs.
I`m talking about the part of Polymorph that discusses SPECIAL ABILITIES gained from the Form/Spell and how to determine their DC, which directs you to use the `Casting Stat` (which isn`t changed by Beast Shape spells). I`m not sure how I could have made that clearer...?

If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead... The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

It doesn`t mention Casting Stat directly, but that is what is factored into the Spell DC.

I`m talking about the part of Polymorph that discusses SPECIAL ABILITIES gained from the Form/Spell and how to determine their DC, which directs you to use the `Casting Stat` (which isn`t changed by Beast Shape spells). I`m not sure how I could have made that clearer...?

Said it twice so my dumb ass could figure it out? :)

So you're saying that the DC to avoid a Trampling Druid Rhino is set by his Wisdom?

I've never heard that before.

So how is that figured out exactly with Wildshape? There's no Save DC for it, and there's no spell level, is there? We haven't been doing it that way, but I could conceive how it might be easier.

Yeah, it`s really bizarre, but that is the unequivocable RAW... :-)

Wildshape is based on the effects of specific spells, e.g. Beast Shape I, II, III, etc.
You use the spell level for those spells (and the Casting Stat... any boosts to the DC if you had cast an actual spell MAY not apply to Wildshape itself, but would to real Beast Shape spells). It doesn`t make the game UNPLAYABLE, but it just results in some strange DISREPANCIES especially if you are especially `optimizing` either for STR or WIS. Imagine if some Beast Shape spell DOES finally grant Stun somehow, and a WIS-optimized Druid grabs an Amulet of Mighty Fists/Brilliant Energy to rock out in Ankylosaur form (to bypass Armor because their attack bonus sucks... or use the Guided Enhancement if you play with that - not PFS legal).

If you feel like it, hit the FAQ on my post above, I did...

As if combat druids weren't MAD enough already, now they need to jack up their Wisdom above minimum level for abilities too? Thank god trip, grapple, and bullrush are all still CMB based.

Wildshape is based on the effects of specific spells, e.g. Beast Shape I, II, III, etc.

So clarify this for me because I still don't get it.

example:
A mage has an int of 18, so his save DC for 5th level level spells is 10+5+4=19. The mage casts Beast Shape III, turns into an Elephant. The trample DC of his trample attack is 19? (yes?)

Same mage turns into a Mastadon, trample DC is still a 19 even though Mastadons trample better than Elephants? (yes?)

Druid has a wis of 18. Druid doesn't know the Beast Shape III spell. Druid uses Wildshape. What's his trample DC, since he doesn't even know the Beast Shape III spell? What's the "spell level" of the wildshape class ability?

I'm not arguing, just trying to figure out how this is supposed to work. It's horribly lame how decentralized these rules are. They wanted to make them simple, but in doing so the pieces and parts of this power are spread all over creation in the rule book.

I'd say that part of gaining the bonuses of a form is using the relevant ability score to determine the DC. Most special abilities in the Bestiary state off which stat the DC of an ability is derived. Not that the rules necessarily support this interpretation, but it's certainly the more favorable one that I'd use. Otherwise, you're just gimping the druid.

After looking through the available plant forms at Druid 12, I'm very pleased with each of them, situationally. They have a very nice strength, and are loaded with DR and elemental resistance combinations. By switching between different types of Large Angry Tree you can match up whether you need cold resistance, fire resistance, etc, and most have DR10 vs some sort of attack so you can swap that out too.

So if your first encounter is a squad of elvish archers, you walk up as a Treant with DR10/slashing, but "vulnerability fire." If the next encounter is a bunch of fire elementals to burn the treant down, or a pack of lightningbolt/fireball mages, you switch to a Quickwood tree with electricity and fire resistance 20.

I really wish those plants forms got Swallow Hole. Man, that'd be a lot of fun.

Here's the plant forms I'm prepping:

Treant (DR 10/slashing, Trample at 1.5str, venerability fire)
Tendrillicus (3 attacks w/ grab, Regeneration 5 blud/fire, acid resistance 20)
Moonflower (DR 10/slashing, electricity/cold resistance 20, venerability fire)
Quickwood (electricity/fire resistance 20)

Question about the Ascomid. It's only listed 'sense' is tremorsense, no vision, but Plant Shape doesn't grant tremorsense. Does that mean you're blind if you wildshape into one?

So clarify this for me because I still don't get it...

Yes, yes,

Question about the Ascomid. It's only listed 'sense' is tremorsense, no vision, but Plant Shape doesn't grant tremorsense. Does that mean you're blind if you wildshape into one?

I guess so per RAW, though unless specifically noted, all creatures can also make Perception checks for sound and smell, so you would still have those and could use them as if everybody was Invisible (i.e. hearing lets you easily judge general direction and presence of creatures not actively stealthing, you just might not be able to target specific squares).

beej67 wrote:

So clarify this for me because I still don't get it...

Yes, yes,

and you didn`t give me the Druid LEVEL so I don`t know what Beast Shape his Wildshape is `emulating`.
Wildshape directly tells you what spell it functions as at various levels:

** spoiler omitted **...

It "functions as Beast Shape III" but Beast Shape isn't a druid spell, so what spell level do you default to? As if a mage was casting Beast Shape III? What happens if some expansion class comes along and gets Beast Shape III at a higher (or lower) spell level? What level would I use then? Could I pick?

Seems terribly sloppy. I wouldn't think that in order for a Wildshaped Druid to determine his Trample DC he'd have to look up the Mage Spell List.

Oooohhh, wait a second. That same rule would apply to poison save DCs, right? There's got to be a good way to exploit that. Is there a wildshapeable form that has a very nasty poison, but with a relatively easy save DC?

You do have to look it up anyways for all the abilities and modifiers.
...I guess it should be spelled out in case something changes, but currently all the Beast/Plant/Elemental spells have the same Spell Level across all classes that have them, including Magus. Since you are using the ability, as if you were casting the spell, it should use the Casting Stat for the Class the grants the Ability, even if it isn`t on your Spell List per se. A non-casting, or light-casting, class that still has access to Wildshape could easily be using WS `as if` casting Spell Levels that they actually don`t have... It is irrelevant how the `emulated` spell actually fits into your own Spell Slots, though I would default to the Spell Level on your own list if it exists (though as mentioned, X Form spells don`t vary Spell Level between Classes anyways).

...Yes it applies to Poison as well, and that is intended, the only thing that is questionable is that by RAW you use WIS and not CON, but a high level Druid could have a higher Poison DC than the `natural` creature regardless of which stat is used.

Still seems sloppy, but I'll play it however.

For instance, Plant Shape III is a 7th level wizard spell, and Beast Shape III is a 5th, which means that all plant forms are going to have a higher trample DC than all animal forms. You'd think that if two twin druids wildshaped into a triceratops and a treant, and played chicken, that the triceratops would win. But he's a clear loser.

So another goof question - Spell focus transmutation increases your Trample DC, right?

Knowing that rule, these plant forms are continuing to look better and better.

Yes, non-Beast Shape spells get an advantage that way because of the Spell Level...
(if you are using Spell Slots, it`s more than reasonable, but Druids don`t care about that)
I incidentally keep thinking `why isn`t there higher level Beast Shape spells?´, for one. Maybe they will make more.

Re: Spell Focus, that`s what I originally thought, but thinking it over more, I rule that Spell Focus doesn`t apply because you`re not actually casting any spell, and although Wildshape has the characteristics of those spells, Spell Focus doesn`t insert itself into the spell characteristics, it just affects the CASTING process and increases the DC of SPELLS. Wildshape depends on the generic spell characteristics. As you noted, Beast Shape (etc) isn`t even on the Druid spell list, so it would seem strange for Spell Focus to affect Wildshape.

I personally insist on using physical stats for physical-derived ability DCs,
but it`s just something to be aware of in strict RAW games, e.g. PFS.

The problem with all that is you are not "Casting" Trample or whichever ability you are using, you are using a supernatural ability to assume the shape and abilities of something else. Those abilities need to be referred to in the Bestiary as to what stat effects their DC. The references to functioning as beast shape except for the noted part is to let is last for 1 hour per level and limit it to animals only.

But, if this were officially otherwise, Then I would most likely still use the physical monster ability stat needed. Using the casters stat makes some of the abilities DCs strange( like a wizard with 28 Int and 5 str having a huge DC grab in another form, even though his form is still physically weak.)

Do or do not the Polymorph rules apply to Wildshape?
The PM rules directly specify how you deal with Ability DCs,
and nothing distinguishes physical abilities from magical ones in this regard.
It is not a matter of `casting Trample` or not,
it just doesn`t work differently than Beast Shape (except as noted).
`except as noted` doesn`t mean `except as noted, and what you decide to not include`.
All Polymorph effects are subject to the Polymorph rules to define their effect, except as noted.
The PM rules say abilities gained have the same DC as the spell used to grant them.

And yes, I agree it`s wierd, which is why I house-rule otherwise.
Note for some things like Poison, I could just as easily `see` using the Casting Stat, but for consistencies sake I apply all physical stats to Ability DC`s... those are just as easily beleivable, after all, and it goes with gamist balance to keep physical stat-based abilities using the same stat for their DCs. I think PRPG`s new dynamic about stats and Polymorph is compelling, but this aspect just happens to cut against that dynamic by RAW. For non-physical-based `magical` ability DC`s, I continue to substitute `Caster Stat`, since whatever a creature`s magical source is irrelevant if your own magic is replicating that ability.

The problem with all that is you are not "Casting" Trample or whichever ability you are using, you are using a supernatural ability to assume the shape and abilities of something else. Those abilities need to be referred to in the Bestiary as to what stat effects their DC. The references to functioning as beast shape except for the noted part is to let is last for 1 hour per level and limit it to animals only.

But, if this were officially otherwise, Then I would most likely still use the physical monster ability stat needed. Using the casters stat makes some of the abilities DCs strange( like a wizard with 28 Int and 5 str having a huge DC grab in another form, even though his form is still physically weak.)

Grab is a poor example, because Grab is CMB, and CMB is figured from your revised physical stats. Same for trip and bullrush, as SunsetPsychosis mentions above. The only really weird one is trample. The rest of them sorta make sense to go up with casting prowess.

Breath Weapon DC? Caster prowess works there.
Vortex DC? Caster prowess works there.
Web DC? (if there was something that had web) Caster prowess works there.

Okay, I stuck the .numbers spreadsheet up on the front page of my campaign website:

http://www.panakos.org

Download it and check it out. I make no guarantees about it's correctness or completeness, since I threw it together in a day and a half out of bits and pieces of other spreadsheets in different formats.

Breath Weapon DC?

I only have one question on this: are you not limited strictly to the abilities that Beast Shape grants you?

If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet, blindsense 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web.

I'm not seeing Breath Weapons in there anywhere...

I'm not seeing Breath Weapons in there anywhere...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape-i

Magical beasts out of Beast Shape IV get breath weapon.

Druids do not get it. I was mistaken above.

Still hoping to get some critiques on the iPad spreadsheet linked above, if anyone wants to grab it and take a look.

Do i get the reach of the animal/plant/elemental/vermin(druid spell call "vermin shape" this is like any shape except this is for 1/level) i am changing to?

Dotting

Yeah, it`s really bizarre, but that is the unequivocable RAW... :-)

Wildshape is based on the effects of specific spells, e.g. Beast Shape I, II, III, etc.
You use the spell level for those spells (and the Casting Stat... any boosts to the DC if you had cast an actual spell MAY not apply to Wildshape itself, but would to real Beast Shape spells). It doesn`t make the game UNPLAYABLE, but it just results in some strange DISREPANCIES especially if you are especially `optimizing` either for STR or WIS. Imagine if some Beast Shape spell DOES finally grant Stun somehow, and a WIS-optimized Druid grabs an Amulet of Mighty Fists/Brilliant Energy to rock out in Ankylosaur form (to bypass Armor because their attack bonus sucks... or use the Guided Enhancement if you play with that - not PFS legal).

If you feel like it, hit the FAQ on my post above, I did...

Dude you are totally wrong wild shape functions as the beast shape spells only its a class feature and all DCs for poison stun and so on are all pre determined by hit dice rating ie your hit dice and the relevant stat con dex so on make sure you work out how an ability works before you go giving out advice for new players.

First, why are you necroing a three and a half year old thread, just to tell someone they're wrong. Second, read the polymorph section of the magic rules where it states that the DC for any abilities gained through polymorphing are equal to the DC of the spell used to gain that form.