Treepower's page

I started Dming few weeks ago, and a player wanted to try the new class - Shifter. It's all good, except he realized his build doesn't go anywhere, so I talked with him about the concept of "stacking natural attacks".

Now, he found many ways to get natural attacks, one of them is versatile arm - using the logic behind Sean K Reynolds post:

"I need you to stop mixing in other things and answer just the question I'm presenting to you.

First of all, unarmed strike can't be *any* body part you want. It's undefined for non-monks, but the monk class specifically calls out "a monk's [unarmed] attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet," so it's reasonable that non-monks have to follow a similar restriction (otherwise the non-monk has more versatile unarmed strike options, which is silly).

So a human holding a barrel with his could make a kick or knee unarmed strike (his arms are busy holding the barrel, so no fists or elbows). If he had TWF, he could make two unarmed strikes, one with the left leg and one with the right leg. We know he has to use separate limbs because the revised monk flurry ruling says a monk can use one weapon for all of a flurry, which means it that a special rule for monks and non-flurrying non-monks can't do that.

Now replace the TWF human with a TWF tengu, and get rid of the barrel. The tengu can make two unarmed strikes per round (one with the left leg and one with the right leg), and gets to add his three natural attacks as secondary attacks. That's 5 attacks per round, total. Overall, that puts his attack bonuses at –2 kick/–2 kick/–5 bite/–5 claw/–5 claw. This is a legitimate attack routine.

Now give him the vestigial arm discovery x2. Instead of making two kick attacks, he's making two manufactured weapon attacks. So his total attack routine is weapon/weapon/bite/claw/claw. That's 5 attacks per round, total. This is a legitimate attack routine.

Tengu-A, the two-armed tengu, is making 5 attacks per round.
Tengu-B, the four-armed tengu, is making 5 attacks per round.

Both are valid. The second tengu is not getting any more attacks per round than the first tengu. In other words, the second tengu is not getting any extra attacks per round compared to the first tengu.

Or, to quote the FAQ:
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."

Haste and other special effects, if applied to both example characters, should affect them equally. Frex, haste on Tengu A gives it an extra unarmed strike attack per round, haste on Tengu B gives it an extra manufactured weapon attack per round, but both characters are still getting the same number of attacks per round: 5 + 1.

So:

Q: How many attacks per round can the tengu make without the discovery?
A: 5.
Q: How many attacks per round can the tengu make with the discovery?
A: 5.
Q: Is the tengu with the discovery making any extra attacks per round compared to the tengu without?
A: No.
Q: So this doesn't violate the rules?
A: Correct.
Q: What if the four-armed tengu also wants to make unarmed strikes in addition to the two manufactured weapon attacks and the three natural attacks?
A: It can't, because that would put it at 7 attacks per round, which is more than the (two-armed) tengu's 5 attacks per round.

As Jiggy said: compare identical builds except one doesn't have the discovery and the other does; the one without the discovery is the default, and having the discovery doesn't allow you to exceed that default."

He plans to get extra claws attacks with aspect of the beast (2 levels of ranger).

Now if any of his plans is not possible somehow, please do tell, but just for future possible rule problems, please explain to me the answer to this question:Do his claws from shifter class, bite and talons from Tattoo Animal Totem (Eagle) and gore from Fiend Totem (barbarian rage power) ALL stays PRIMARY?

link to the post with Sean K Reynolds answer

Is being under the effect of Wild shape counts as being under effect of a spell from polymorph subschool?

Not by raw, talk with your DM.

Thank you

Is there a way to use Mythic Beast Shape or Mythic Elemental Body with Wildshape ability?

The mythic ability Shapeshifting Mastery says two things:

1. "You add half your tier to the caster level of spells or extracts from the polymorph subschool".

2. "While under the effects of a spell or extract of the polymorph subschool, you can use your caster level instead of your base attack bonus when making natural attacks that rely on your new form".

Does Wildshape counts for both abilities?

The fact that no one answered means that no one knows?

The Mythic version of powerful shape gives you the ability to apply the giant simple template, but the quick rules version.

Quick Rules: +2 to all rolls based on Str or Con, +2 hp/HD, –1 penalty on all rolls based on Dex.

now in the rebuild rules it is written that you increase one size category, but it's not written in the quick build rules.

Does it mean i don't increase my size category when i use wild shape and apply the template?

Do i get the reach of the animal/plant/elemental/vermin(druid spell call "vermin shape" this is like any shape except this is for 1/level) i am changing to?