How does the 10th-level spell slot FAQ interact with everything?

Several classes were accidentally missing an important limitation for 10th level spells. In the following class features, add “You can’t use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots.”

Page 121: Miraculous Spell

Page 133: Primal Hierophant

Page 207: Archwizard's Spellcraft

One of my players recently asked me the following:

I've since responded with the following:
I've always believed that Divine Font, Divine Evolution, and others would grant you 10th-level slots where appropriate, but it seems the developers have changed the wording so that may no longer be true. I'll have to look into this one a little deeper.

My initial thought is that those abilities still do (give you 10th-level spell slots). In other words, I interpret it as "You can’t use this spell slot for abilities that...give you more spell slots." If any ability doesn't use the spell slot to generate more spell slots, then you're golden. For example, Divine Font and others still work, and grant you 10th-level spell equivalents, but something similar to Spell Blending would not.

However, there is enough uncertainty that I thought I'd solicit the opinions and thoughts of the Hive Mind. How do you interpret the interaction of this FAQrrata with the rules at large?

As an aside, does the following rules text prevent you from casting 10th-level cantrips?

"You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots..."

I'm thinking it does not limit you to 9th-level cantrips because cantrips do not "use" your 10th-level spell slot to fuel anything. Your cantrips simply are themselves 10th-level spells at a certain point.

I think you're on the right track, RD.

Basically, the FAQ text doesn't let you use your normal 10th level spell slot for any spell you could cast without expending a spell slot, and you can't use your normal 10th level spell slot for abilities that give you more spell slots, but the Divine Font ability is outside that - you don't use the normal 10th level spell slot for Divine Font, it has its own spell slots.

So if an ability creates spell slots "at your highest spell level" and you can cast 10th level spells, that's fine, they work as expected and create 10th level spell slots.

Similarly, 10th level cantrips are fine - you're not using the 10th level spell slot to cast cantrips without expending spell slots, you're using your cantrips for it.

As an aside, does the following rules text prevent you from casting 10th-level cantrips?

"You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots..."

I'm thinking it does not limit you to 9th-level cantrips because cantrips do not "use" your 10th-level spell slot to fuel anything. Your cantrips simply are themselves 10th-level spells at a certain point.

Haven't looked through everything for the first part of your post, but for cantrips, they don't actually reference spell slots.

A spell you can cast at will that is automatically heightened to half your level rounded up.

At 19th level that would be 19/2 = 9.5 then rounded up to 10. So 10th level cantrips for all.

I would be interesting in an official ruling on this as well.

I generally only apply it to the wizard's spell blending, but it seems it's meant to apply to anything that gives 10th level slots by the wording including divine font, primal evolution, and the like. But who knows what they intended.

I know I disregard it mostly at the moment. Abilities like Primal Evolution are useless if it isn't a 10th level summon as summons are already weak for 10th level spells. Not sure who thought a lvl 15 creature would be a good summon for a lvl 19 caster, but it isn't. It is incredibly weak and useless in a CR of equal or higher level battle.

I tend to judge an ability on how useful it is in battle. If it isn't unbalancing or problematic, then I allow it to be cast at 10th level if the campaign happens to go to 19th lvl or above.

Casters are supposed to have fun too. 10th level spells are good, but they aren't that good that you need to limit them like the Paizo design team did. They put so many inherent limitations in place for spells, then add another on top of it. Some of it seems like overkill at this point, especially with summons and incap spells.

If you want to houserule it so that 10th level spell slots do qualify for such things, that is probably not a bad houserule. Especially for heightened spells. It might be a bit broken for casting 10th level spells though. So maybe the houserule should be that you can get additional pseudo-10th level spell slots that can only be used for heightened versions of spells that can be cast at lower level.

But I think the RAI is fairly clear here even if the RAW is a bit clunky. Especially after the errata adding the restrictive language to some other places that it was missing.

So no, for things like Divine Font or Primal Evolution that give you additional spells of your highest level, it doesn't count 10th level spell slots for that. It should give you the 9th level slots though.

Similar with Drain Bonded Item or Greater Vital Evolution. 9th level spell slots are fair game. 10th level slots are not.

I think the key words here are in the limitations. They're actually pretty specific, and they only mention two things that you can't do:
You can't use this spell slot for abilities that
a. let you cast spells without expending spell slots, or
b. that give you more spell slots.

Later on it also mentions that "You don't gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, though you can take..."

I don't actually see anything that mentions limitations on gaining additional 10th level spells or spell slots via other sources such as divine font (which is actually explicitly listed as being 10th level on the table) or things like Primal Evolution. And from a power level perspective I think it's fine too, well... maybe. I don't know what all the abilities that grant you spells of your highest level are, but the ones I've seen have all been based around casting specific spells (typically with pretty basic heightening effects) heightened to a given level, which is obviously less problematic than getting another 10th level slot with no restrictions.

I agree with Aw3som3-117 and ChemlaK.

Drain bonded Item is clearly out "without expending spell slots" disallows it.

Spell Blending also out "gives you more spell slots" and is disallowed.

Cantrips are clearly in, as they never mention spell slots at all and are heightened to 1/2 your character level (round up)

Divine Font specifically calls these out as 10th level. And nothing in the text says you don't count tenth level as your highest spellslot.

You gain a single 10th-level spell slot and can prepare a spell in that slot using divine spellcasting. You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots.

You gain additional spell slots each day at your highest level of cleric spell slots.

When you make your daily preparations, you can trade two spell slots of the same level for a bonus spell slot of up to 2 levels higher than the traded spell slots. You can exchange as many spell slots as you have available. Bonus spell slots must be of a level you can normally cast, and each bonus spell slot must be of a different spell level.

You gain an additional spell slot of your highest level, which you can use only to cast summon animal or summon plants or fungus.

I don't really see a meaningful difference in the wording in Divine Font, Spell Blending and Primal Evolution to allow one but not the other. All of these gain you spells based on the highest level spell you can cast. It says you can't use it for abilities that gain you more spell slots* so I'm leaning on RAW that you can't.

* I know the Divine Font table mentions 10th level spells but I believe this to be a contradiction. If it isn't I see no reason to disallow Spell Blending based on wording either.

* I know the Divine Font table mentions 10th level spells but I believe this to be a contradiction. If it isn't I see no reason to disallow Spell Blending based on wording either.

It could be that they missed the cleric table when changing how 10th level spell slots work in the errata.

Or it could be that the table indicates that Divine Font is a specific exception. Normally it wouldn't work like the other options you mentioned but since the book specifically says it does it bypasses the general rule.

Hard to say.

Regardless of what is written in the errata document, I raise a 'doesn't work as intended' flag if an ability like Divine Font that has been scaling with your level (and HP, and monster damage) since the start, suddenly stops doing so.

For me, the wording means:

You get ONE 10th level spell slot. Period. You never gain an additional 10th level spell slot under any circumstance or by any means other than the appropriate 20th level feat.

So you can't - EVER - cast more than one/two 10th level spells per day. Not counting cantrips and focus spells, of course, since those don't use spell slots.

Okay, but... where does it say that? I feel like I'm missing something here, because reading it in plain English I don't see anything limiting you gaining other 10th level spell slots other than the line that says you don't gain more as you level up, which makes sense, since the table specifically says you only get one.

There are restrictions on how you use that spell slot, though, like not being able to double down on it by using an ability that lets you cast a spell without using it's spell slot.

Let's look at the cleric as it's probably the one contested the most:

You're exalted by your deity and gain truly incredible spells. You gain a single 10th-level spell slot and can prepare a spell in that slot using divine spellcasting. You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots. You don't gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, though you can take the Maker of Miracles feat to gain a second slot.

It's right there. The wording "You can't use this spell slot" is a bit weird, but for me it just means "You can't use this 10th level spell slot to gain more spell slots from abilities that are based on your slot's spell level."

So yeah, Divine Font gives you more slots of your highest spell level, but since you can't use that 10th level slot as a basis for any slot-granting abilities, Divine Font doesn't give you 10th level spell slots. Since the 10th level spell slot is ignored, you just keep the 9th level slots you already had when you hit level 19.

And I'm completely ignoring the spell slot table here since an updated an errata'd bit of rule text has a lot more weight than some random oversight in a table, in my opinion.

EDIT: It's also a matter of balance. Giving some classes extra 10th level spells while others simply don't have any ability or feat granting extra slots would be a bit ridiculous.

Still, it would be nice to get an official ruling, but I fear the FAQ is the closest we'll get on the matter.

The FAQ says to add the text in three places, in the paragraphs for Miraculous Spell, Primal Hierophant, and Archwizard's Spellcraft. That means it applies to only those spell slots. That is the official ruling.

How can I be sure of that? 1) Any alternate interpretation requires reading just a sentence fragment and ignoring the rest and is thus clearly inferior. 2) Using my interpretation, there is nothing wrong or incomplete with the wording as-is.

These are the relevant lines for each class.

You gain a single 10th-level spell slot and can prepare a spell in that slot using [tradition] spellcasting. You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots.

The other spellcasters have a similar description on gaining that single 10th-level spell and specifying the class spellcasting used. "You gain a single 10th-level spell slot and can prepare spell in that slot/you can use to cast spells using [class] spellcasting."

You don’t gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, unlike other spell slots, and you can’t use 10th-level slots with abilities that give you more spell slots or that let you cast spells without expending spell slots.

Unlike other spell slots, you don’t gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, and they can’t be used for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or abilities that give you more spell slots.

You don't gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, unlike other spell slots, and you can't use 10th-level slots with abilities that give you more spell slots or that let you cast spells without expending spell slots.

Unlike with other spell slots, these spell slots can't be used for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or abilities that give you more spell slots.

Unlike the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard, the other classes seem to more clearly refer to 10th level spell slots in general, not the single one you gain. The Witch is a bit closer to the errata'd version but it could go either way.

I've always read it like how Blave describes, and I personally feel like that's the intent. At the same time, by breaking down the line saying "abilities that give you more slots or cast spells without expending a slot," like Aw3som3-117 did, I can clearly see where the restriction is less universal.

Ever since the errata, the Divine Font chart is what makes me currently unsure on what the intent is. IF they intended to do so, I think Squiggit makes a good point that it's possible that they could've missed changing the chart with the errata. Rather easy to miss imo; it's literally two asterisks.

I wouldn't mind more clarity on whether the restriction is supposed to only apply to the 10th level spell slot you get from the class feature and/or the level 20 feat OR all 10th level spell slots in general.

EDIT: It's also a matter of balance. Giving some classes extra 10th level spells while others simply don't have any ability or feat granting extra slots would be a bit ridiculous.

Here's why I think that balance requires that things that auto-heighten need to go to level 10:

1) Hit points keep increasing after level 17.

2) Major striking runes are level 19.

I mean, even if it applies to all 10th level slots it still only restricts using it for certain abilities.

In fact, if it was supposed to say something about gaining 10th level spell slots, then not only would it be incorrectly worded, but it would also be in a very odd spot. Right after the quoted sentence, which notably is talking about what you can do with that spell slot / 10th level spell slots, it goes on to say

You don't gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, though you can take the Maker of Miracles feat to gain a second slot.

That would be a much more appropriate spot to talk about how you are allowed to gain spell slots, and it could do so rather easily in a number of ways. Examples:

2. You don't gain more 10th-level spells as you level up. The only way to gain more 10th level slots is by taking the Maker of Miracles feat, which grants you an additional 10th level spell slot.

3. You don't gain more 10th-level spells as you level up or through feats and abilities that grant spells or spell slots of your highest level, though you can take the Maker of Miracles feat to gain a second slot.

Okay, but... where does it say that? I feel like I'm missing something here, because reading it in plain English I don't see anything limiting you gaining other 10th level spell slots other than the line that says you don't gain more as you level up, which makes sense, since the table specifically says you only get one.

There are restrictions on how you use that spell slot, though, like not being able to double down on it by using an ability that lets you cast a spell without using it's spell slot.

That is because the RAW is rather clunky. The game rules often confuse a character's spellcasting level with the spell slots that they have. Just look at the arguments over whether the playtest Summoner can use a staff to see other examples of where that assumption causes problems.

For my own improved wording of the RAW that would make my stance on this topic more clear:

"You can’t use this spell level for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots."

Which much more clearly shows that it is 10th level spells in general that don't interact with the feats and class features such as Divine Font and Drain Bonded Item.

But that isn't RAW. Until and unless it becomes so, we will just have to live with the vague and confusing rules and the table variation that it brings.

I have some questions for Spell Blending. This line isn't what's preventing the Wizard to get a bonus 10th level spell slot.

You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots.

You're not using a "this [10th-level] spell slot" to get more spell slots. You're using two other spell slots of the same level, let's say 8th-level, for a bonus 10th-level spell slot. So that's all good until this line which actually stops you from doing so, right?

Unlike with other spell slots, you don't gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, though you can take the Archwizard's Might feat to gain a second slot.

And I don't know why you'd want to, but can't you legally still use 10th-level spell slots to spell blend two additional cantrips? The 10th-level spell slot isn't used for an ability that casts without expending or gets more slots (cantrips don't use spell slots) and no 10th-level spell slot was gained.

I have some questions for Spell Blending. This line isn't what's preventing the Wizard to get a bonus 10th level spell slot.

Quote:

You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots.

No, I think Spell Blending is still interacting with the first line of the rule.

you can trade two spell slots of the same level for a bonus spell slot of up to 2 levels higher than the traded spell slots.

If a 'bonus spell slot' isn't 'more spell slots', then I don't know what is.

But that is only a problem if you are reading the rules about 10th level spell as preventing you from gaining more 10th level spells. Though I am struggling to understand what else that part of that sentence could possibly be referring to.

I guess that is my big question regarding this debate. If the rule text

You can’t use this spell slot for abilities ... that give you more spell slots.

isn't referring to things like Spell Blending and Divine Font and therefore preventing you from getting more 10th level spell slots from that, what does that rule text refer to?

I guess that is my big question regarding this debate. If the rule text

Quote:

You can’t use this spell slot for abilities ... that give you more spell slots.

isn't referring to things like Spell Blending and Divine Font and therefore preventing you from getting more 10th level spell slots from that, what does that rule text refer to?

Future proofing maybe?

My thoughts: The errata and restrictions on 10th level spells are weird and don’t really make a lot of sense. "Several classes were accidentally missing an important limitation for 10th level spells. In the following class features, add You can’t use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots."

It stops Divine Font cold - you just lose your spell level 9 font slots and don't get spell level 10 replacements. A character level 19 cleric cannot have any divine font - which was probably not intended.

The cleric spell tables show the slots in the updated PDF that the errata is supposedly removing.

Spell Blending still works as the language is not tight enough to stop it.

But the errata is totally undone when you take the level 20 feat which gives you another level 10 slot. This second level 10 slot has none of the limitations of the first level 10 slot. The wording of the errata clearly applies the limit to the slot gained as a class feature. So it enables the abilities that the errata was supposed to limit.
I’ll probably just ignore these restrictions totally as it just doesn’t make any sense. But I don’t play at this level much so I don’t have a good handle on the problem.

It seems to be fixing a top end balance problem I don’t understand and it's totally buggered up. Honestly I don’t mind if level 19+ play is a bit over the top.

Really for me the main problem is the lack of quality control. If we get errata like this - which just introduces obvious problems. Then what is the point of it?

I guess that is my big question regarding this debate. If the rule text

Quote:

You can’t use this spell slot for abilities ... that give you more spell slots.

isn't referring to things like Spell Blending and Divine Font and therefore preventing you from getting more 10th level spell slots from that, what does that rule text refer to?

Yeah, I was trying to use a different but still possible perspective on reading that line. I can see someone reading it as you’re not using the 10th-level slot to give you more spell slots, you’re using the 8th-level slots to do so. Did the 10th-level slot give you spell slot? No, the 8th-level slots did.

Not how read it instinctively but I wouldn’t put it past someone doing so.

Also, what’s everyone’s stance on the Wizard’s extra slot from their specialization? Don’t those read similar to Divine Font and they’re similarly not a universal spell slot?

breithauptclan wrote:

I guess that is my big question regarding this debate. If the rule text

Quote:

You can’t use this spell slot for abilities ... that give you more spell slots.

isn't referring to things like Spell Blending and Divine Font and therefore preventing you from getting more 10th level spell slots from that, what does that rule text refer to?

Future proofing maybe?

This. Yes.

I'd rather read the rules than read into them and assume the Dev's made a mistake originally, then saw that they made the mistake and went out of their way to "correct" it, clearly looking into the wording clearly so they get it right this time and... made another mistake... and put it in a weird spot in the paragraph... and give no additional information to the reader. It seems much more likely to me that they meant what they said. You can't use 10th level spells to gain spell slots, nor can you cast them without expending a spell slot. If that's what they were trying to say, then they said it very clearly and concisely. If, on the other hand, they were trying to say that you can't gain spell slots of 10th level through feats, then they not only did a horrible job, but also coincidentally killed the very feat that they then explain allows you to gain a second 10th level spell slot, since that is a totally separate sentence and doesn't in any way reference or modify the restrictive language of the previous sentence. It just says that despite not getting more as you level you can still get it with this feat.

Perhaps we'll get clarification that they actually meant something different from what they said and this is supposed to stop people from gaining 10th level spells from other feats and features, but as it stands that's not what it says.

It stops Divine Font cold - you just lose your spell level 9 font slots and don't get spell level 10 replacements. A character level 19 cleric cannot have any divine font - which was probably not intended.

That is a very deliberately bad way of interpreting the opposing view.

If we are ignoring the level 10 spellcasting power for Divine Font, then what Divine Font would see as your highest level spellcasting power would be 9th level - so it would give you the appropriate number of extra spell slots of that level.

I'd rather read the rules than read into them and assume the Dev's made a mistake originally, then saw that they made the mistake and went out of their way to "correct" it, clearly looking into the wording clearly so they get it right this time and... made another mistake... and put it in a weird spot in the paragraph... and give no additional information to the reader. It seems much more likely to me that they meant what they said. You can't use 10th level spells to gain spell slots, nor can you cast them without expending a spell slot. If that's what they were trying to say, then they said it very clearly and concisely. If, on the other hand, they were trying to say that you can't gain spell slots of 10th level through feats, then they not only did a horrible job, but also coincidentally killed the very feat that they then explain allows you to gain a second 10th level spell slot, since that is a totally separate sentence and doesn't in any way reference or modify the restrictive language of the previous sentence. It just says that despite not getting more as you level you can still get it with this feat.

I would rather assume that if the game devs deliberately write an errata because it is 'an important limitation', that it would be referencing and interacting with rules that already exist. Not future rules that may or may not ever actually get made.

But I can't fault your stand on it either.

Gortle wrote:

It stops Divine Font cold - you just lose your spell level 9 font slots and don't get spell level 10 replacements. A character level 19 cleric cannot have any divine font - which was probably not intended.

That is a very deliberately bad way of interpreting the opposing view.

If we are ignoring the level 10 spellcasting power for Divine Font, then what Divine Font would see as your highest level spellcasting power would be 9th level - so it would give you the appropriate number of extra spell slots of that level.

I'm not trying to be perverse. But this is the clearest balack and white way of reading. Yes is it a problem reading. Which I did acknowledge. But that is what the rules actually say

Under Divine font it says Healing Font: You gain additional spell slots each day at your highest level of cleric spell slots.

But under Miraculous Spell it says You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots.

That stops it cold. The font gives it to you only at your highest level. But you can't use your highest level. There is no room anywhere for substitution or going back to 9th level.

For sure I'd prefer that to be the case. But no. It is not ambiguous. It is black and white.

You are trying to add some common sense or balance, with which I would readily agree, but it is just not there in the rules text.

breithauptclan wrote:

Gortle wrote:

It stops Divine Font cold - you just lose your spell level 9 font slots and don't get spell level 10 replacements. A character level 19 cleric cannot have any divine font - which was probably not intended.

That is a very deliberately bad way of interpreting the opposing view.

If we are ignoring the level 10 spellcasting power for Divine Font, then what Divine Font would see as your highest level spellcasting power would be 9th level - so it would give you the appropriate number of extra spell slots of that level.

I'm not trying to be perverse. But this is the clearest balack and white way of reading. Yes is it a problem reading. Which I did acknowledge. But that is what the rules actually say

Under Divine font it says Healing Font: You gain additional spell slots each day at your highest level of cleric spell slots.

But under Miraculous Spell it says You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots.

That stops it cold. The font gives it to you only at your highest level. But you can't use your highest level. There is no room anywhere for substitution or going back to 9th level.

For sure I'd prefer that to be the case. But no. It is not ambiguous. It is black and white.

You are trying to add some common sense or balance, with which I would readily agree, but it is just not there in the rules text.

That's not my take away at all.

You can't use this spell slot for abilities that...give you more spell slots.

Since you don't meat the criteria of the first half (using the spell slot), you needn't worry about either of the two second parts (such as getting more spell slots).

Aw3som3-117 wrote:

I'd rather read the rules than read into them and assume the Dev's made a mistake originally, then saw that they made the mistake and went out of their way to "correct" it, clearly looking into the wording clearly so they get it right this time and... made another mistake... and put it in a weird spot in the paragraph... and give no additional information to the reader. It seems much more likely to me that they meant what they said. You can't use 10th level spells to gain spell slots, nor can you cast them without expending a spell slot. If that's what they were trying to say, then they said it very clearly and concisely. If, on the other hand, they were trying to say that you can't gain spell slots of 10th level through feats, then they not only did a horrible job, but also coincidentally killed the very feat that they then explain allows you to gain a second 10th level spell slot, since that is a totally separate sentence and doesn't in any way reference or modify the restrictive language of the previous sentence. It just says that despite not getting more as you level you can still get it with this feat.

I would rather assume that if the game devs deliberately write an errata because it is 'an important limitation', that it would be referencing and interacting with rules that already exist. Not future rules that may or may not ever actually get made.

But I can't fault your stand on it either.

Despite very strongly disagreeing I can certainly see where you're coming from, and on that note I'd like to make a quick counterpoint, because quite frankly the fact that it's supposed to be a big limitation is actually the strongest counter-argument I've heard so far. At least from my perspective.

Okay, so regarding the importance of the limitation I think the key thing that is particularly important in the short run is the part about not being able to use it without expending a spell slot such as with drain bonded item, which before the errata would work with a 10th level spell slot. It also frees up design space for other such abilities to be printed without having to call out that it can't be used for 10th level spells every time. The last part is just tacked on the end because that's also a part of the limitation they had in mind for 10th level spells, and they're not going to just fix half of the problem because the other half isn't important enough. If they're releasing an errata, then they might as well do everything they want to do with it, not just what's immediately impactful.

That's not my take away at all.

You can't use this spell slot for abilities that...give you more spell slots.

Since you don't meat the criteria of the first half (using the spell slot), you needn't worry about either of the two second parts (such as getting more spell slots).

I just don't see the distinction you are trying to make.

All the powers that I'm talking about reference the spell slot. If that is not using the spell slot then I don't know what is.

The cleric font says additional spell slots at your highest
level of clerical spell slots. There is no back out clause about the availability of your highest spell slot.

Ravingdork wrote:

That's not my take away at all.

You can't use this spell slot for abilities that...give you more spell slots.

Since you don't meat the criteria of the first half (using the spell slot), you needn't worry about either of the two second parts (such as getting more spell slots).

I just don't see the distinction you are trying to make.

All the powers that I'm talking about reference the spell slot. If that is not using the spell slot then I don't know what is.

The cleric font says additional spell slots at your highest
level of clerical spell slots. There is no back out clause about the availability of your highest spell slot.

Seems you're referring to spell slots more generally, whereas I'm referring to only the 10th-level spell slots granted by the class abilities listed in the FAQrrata specifically.

If you're not using your class ability-granted 10th-level spell slot* to fuel something, than the limitation doesn't apply (or at least that's my interpretation).

All I know for sure is the errata nuked the entire pro-wizard argument of all those 10th level spell slots and seemed intended to do so. It was a direct shot at the wizard class argument about the most 10th level spell slots from all those wizard vs. martial threads.

Seems you're referring to spell slots more generally, whereas I'm referring to only the 10th-level spell slots granted by the class abilities listed in the FAQrrata specifically.

If you're not using your class ability-granted 10th-level spell slot* to fuel something, than the limitation doesn't apply (or at least that's my interpretation).
Or the other 10th-level slot granted by the associated class feat.

There is room to treat the level 10 spell slot granted by the level 20 feat differently. The rule is specifically referring to this spell slot not any other spell slot, and not all level 10 spell slots.

Maker of Miracles has no dependancy on a tenth level spell slot. So it clearly works, without having to invoke the specific beats general principle.

Which is what makes the whole thing totally non sensical. Whatever balance issue it was trying to fix, it has just now undone with this feat.

I really am hoping I'm misreading it. I just can't see how. Nothing so far in this thread or any of the previous ones is giving me a reason to do that.

All I know for sure is the errata nuked the entire pro-wizard argument of all those 10th level spell slots and seemed intended to do so. It was a direct shot at the wizard class argument about the most 10th level spell slots from all those wizard vs. martial threads.

Source? I remember all that going on at about the same period of time, but that doesn't necessarily mean one caused the other (and even if it did, that's not necessarily evidence of what the developers were attempting to fix).

I guess that is my big question regarding this debate. If the rule text

Quote:

You can’t use this spell slot for abilities ... that give you more spell slots.

isn't referring to things like Spell Blending and Divine Font and therefore preventing you from getting more 10th level spell slots from that, what does that rule text refer to?

The closest, most obvious answer to me would be Arcane Bond / Drain Bonded Item, which uses an expended spell slot to essentially give you another by repeating the spell, and is a mandatory class feature of Wizard. The distinction is that Arcane Bond would let you cast another native 10th Lv spell, which is probably the big no-no the whole errata is trying to patch — which is why, in my opinion, it doesn't touch stuff like Divine Font, which merely heightens a 1st Lv spell to 10th, and uses entirely separate slots from THE slot. The 10th Lv slot you get at Lv 19.

Admittedly, this still leaves the status of Spell Blending a little questionable. Purely by the current wording of Archwizard's Spellcraft and the thesis description, the only thing suggesting it doesn't work by the rules is "must be of a level you can normally cast", since the 10th Lv slot can reasonably be considered abnormal. I very much doubt it's intended that Spell Blending works with it either, in any case, for the same reason that I think Divine Font can fully heighten — all of this pomp and circumstance regarding 10th Lv spells is because the ones natively of that level are deemed too powerful to be cast more than once a day, other than with an entire capstone feat to do it twice, and my guess is that's all they're really trying to enforce with this muddy wording.

Okay, so regarding the importance of the limitation I think the key thing that is particularly important in the short run is the part about not being able to use it without expending a spell slot such as with drain bonded item, which before the errata would work with a 10th level spell slot. It also frees up design space for other such abilities to be printed without having to call out that it can't be used for 10th level spells every time. The last part is just tacked on the end because that's also a part of the limitation they had in mind for 10th level spells, and they're not going to just fix half of the problem because the other half isn't important enough. If they're releasing an errata, then they might as well do everything they want to do with it, not just what's immediately impactful.

That's also a fair point.

You are trying to add some common sense or balance, with which I would readily agree, but it is just not there in the rules text.

Indeed I am.

From re-reading the thread, I think we are all on the same page for the idea of splitting the errata sentence into two parts. Writing them out as two separate sentences to make them clearer:

1) You can’t use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots.

2) You can’t use this spell slot for abilities that give you more spell slots.

I am also not seeing much debate and discussion about the first sentence. It blocks things like Wizard's Drain Bonded Item which specifically allows you to re-cast an expended spell slot without spending a spell slot. The only disagreement that I have seen is that some readings of that rule would include only the first 10th level spell slot - if you take a feat to gain a second 10th level spell slot, then it is fair game for all of those types of abilities.

It is the second sentence that has the most contention about it.

Some are reading it as a null sentence meant for future rules*. So since things like Spell Blending and Divine Font don't 'use' a spell slot to gain more spell slots, then it doesn't stop these features and feats from working.

Some are reading it as preventing abilities that cause gaining any 10th level spell slots from working. This blocks things like Spell Blending from working to give 10th level spell slots, and prevents Divine Font from working at all.

Neither literal reading of the rules actually makes full sense. There are cases under both interpretations that do make sense, and there are cases under both interpretations that don't make sense. So with that in mind, I think that we are going to have to stray a bit from the literal reading and get into common sense, and what works for each table. Ambiguous Rules rule time. Find something that works for you.

Personally I think that Divine Font should work, or anything else that gives you spell slots of a particular spell like Divine Font does.

Since you don't meat the criteria of the first half (using the spell slot), you needn't worry about either of the two second parts (such as getting more spell slots).

What, no meat?... ;)

But I don’t play at this level much so I don’t have a good handle on the problem.

That's pretty much how I am. I can't recall the last time I had 10th level spells.

You are trying to add some common sense or balance, with which I would readily agree, but it is just not there in the rules text.

*nods* A quick skim of the rules agrees with you. I like breithauptclan's way of ruling it but it seems like a houserule IMO.

Blave wrote:

EDIT: It's also a matter of balance. Giving some classes extra 10th level spells while others simply don't have any ability or feat granting extra slots would be a bit ridiculous.

Here's why I think that balance requires that things that auto-heighten need to go to level 10:

1) Hit points keep increasing after level 17.

2) Major striking runes are level 19.

Auto heighten as in cantrips and focus spells? Those heighten to level 10 just fine since they don't use spell slots.

Auto heighten as in "Divine Font gives you additional spell slots of your highest spell level"? Those don't go to level 10 since the very class feature that grants you level 10 spells says you can't get more 10th level spell slots.

If you argue that clerics need those extra spells to keep up with healing - and for the record you're talking about 12 extra healing oin a level range where everyone has 300-400 HP and enemies easily hit for 40+ damage - I would still argue that is not the case. First of all, where does that leave other healers? They are outright too weak to do any healing?

Also, Cleric still get's up to 5 extra 9th level heals per day. That's plenty. And it begs the question how extra 10th level slots can ever be balanced against classes that simply don't have any ability to get more 10th level slots like the bard or the witch. Why would you give some classes extra capstone abilities while other very similar classes don't have a chance to get those?

Deriven Firelion wrote:

All I know for sure is the errata nuked the entire pro-wizard argument of all those 10th level spell slots and seemed intended to do so. It was a direct shot at the wizard class argument about the most 10th level spell slots from all those wizard vs. martial threads.

Source? I remember all that going on at about the same period of time, but that doesn't necessarily mean one caused the other (and even if it did, that's not necessarily evidence of what the developers were attempting to fix).

There is no source.

But the biggest pro-wizard argument at the time was Spell Blending, Arcane Focus, Extra Spell From school, and feat at 20th level for 5 10th level slots, one that can be used for mega-disintegrate.

After that errata, that pro-wizard argument is all gone.

Paizo seemed to be watching that situation closely. The net outcome of that errata was the destruction of that pro-wizard argument as that capacity is no longer possible.

And another player of mine quit the wizard at lvl 6. He was painfully ineffective again compared to equal level martials. That low level wizarding is terrible. I still don't have anyone that has made it past lvl 6, though the same guy did try starting at lvl 9 and was about as effective. Not sure where the wizard fun cut off is, maybe lvl 11? Maybe I'll see someday, but maybe not.

Wizards can cast a lot of spells. PF2 monsters have lots of very high saves. Even with a lot of spells, you have about a 50% of chance or less of affecting boss or equal level monsters. Not great fun. That means your best class ability that you can only use so many times per day is ineffective about 50% of the time.

I still think it is pretty sad wizards have fallen this far. I hope they do something with their focus abilities in future books to make them more interesting.

This particular errata did almost nothing to any other class except maybe make things like primal evolution less attractive. Even 9th level heal spells heal a ton, so that is no big deal if you follow or don't follow the rule for Divine Font.

But wizards were hammered down by removing those 10th level slots, hammered down hard. Even if they reach 19th level, they have no real advantage except maybe mega-disintegrate one time a day.

Ravingdork wrote:

Since you don't meat the criteria of the first half (using the spell slot), you needn't worry about either of the two second parts (such as getting more spell slots).

What, no meat?... ;)

I really need to just stick to writing on my desktop rather than texting on these new-fangled "smart" phone thingamajigs. There's nothing "smart" about them! *grumble* ...butchering my words more often than not... *grumble*

Honestly, this smells a lot like "Crap, this fun new feature gets super-OP at Lv.19, and we don't have time to rewrite and re-playtest it!" SoM-proofing to me. I imagine that we'll have specific examples that directly fit (and clarify) the wording come August, and that we might be stuck with weird ambiguity until then.

All the powers that I'm talking about reference the spell slot. If that is not using the spell slot then I don't know what is.

Personally, I'd say they're different things. I look at it like ODR-using a variable in C++, myself: It's not considered "used" unless you interact with the contents (very heavily simplified & paraphrased). You can reference a variable if all you have is the declaration (the name, or a promise that it exists), but you can't actually do anything with it unless you have both the name and the definition (the actual content and mechanical implementation).

Similarly, the errata makes the most sense to me if it affects features that rely on the contents of the slot itself (the definition), but doesn't affect features that just check whether you have the slot or not (the declaration); you're fine to reference the slot as long as you don't modify the "data" it stores (by casting a spell if it's full, refilling it if it's empty, directly interacting with the spell prepared in the slot, etc.). So, Divine Font ("what's your highest slot?") would work, but not Drain Bonded Item ("cast the spell in the slot free of charge, if the slot has already been used").

Then again, the very fact that we can have different opinions about this here means there's probably a problem with the errata, and/or that we're all looking in the wrong place or at the wrong thing.

Yes. Which brings me back to the point. This rules is a problem, and while there might be a balance problem somewhere, it is not obvious what that is.
I'm going to ignore all these rules on 10th level slots and the errata until someone can explain it clearly. I just can't read it and make sense of it.

All the powers that I'm talking about reference the spell slot. If that is not using the spell slot then I don't know what is.

However unfounded I personally think it might be, I can sort of understand people reading the "using this spell slot" line differently, primarily because they think the rules would be weird if they meant what they said and are reading intent into them based on the Dev's comments, like breithauptclan, but it baffles me that the different ways of interacting with something might actually be considered the same / indistinguishable in the context of determining "use".

"You can't use X to do Y or Z" is not the same as "you can't do Y or Z to get X". Use implies, well, use, not gains. If I gained a million dollars that wouldn't be using a million dollars. If I was given a bowl of ice cream and then I got myself another bowl of ice cream, I wouldn't be using the first bowl of ice cream.

graystone wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Since you don't meat the criteria of the first half (using the spell slot), you needn't worry about either of the two second parts (such as getting more spell slots).

What, no meat?... ;)

I really need to just stick to writing on my desktop rather than texting on these new-fangled "smart" phone thingamajigs. There's nothing "smart" about them! *grumble* ...butchering my words more often than not... *grumble*

LOL I know exactly what you mean. I try to post from my tablet and I sound like a pirate. My fingers aren't dexterous enough for a virtual keyboard. ;)