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I've been working on thrown weapon builds since weapon master's handbook came out. I thought it was only viable with a Fighter since Ricochet Toss and Advanced Weapon Training Trained Throw are locked behind some fighter only doors (or feat taxes).
Then I learned of the existence of the arsenal chaplain, which I had overlooked before.
Arsenal Chaplain is a Warpriest archetype that gets Weapon Training. So when I found it I set about building a starknife throwing warpriest using the archetype in Herolab, only to discover what I believe are some errors in Herolab and wanted to confirm I correctly understand things and that these are legitimate errors.
Firstly, Herolab is actually or acting lab the character has weapon training after 5th level. And I'm unsure whether the archetype's weapon training scales up or not, but I'm assuming Gloves of Dueling should apply.
It's also throwing an error showing that Weapon Specialization isn't a valid selection, but a warpriest should be able to select it with his bonus feats after 4th level correct?
Ricochet Toss should be able to be picked up after 5th level, when the Arsenal Chaplain gets Weapon Training Correct?
Advanced Weapon Training should be able to be selected also a bonus feat at or after 5th level again using the bonus feats, correct? Which would enable the selection of Trained Throw from AWT, correct?
Just want a second set of eyes to make sure I haven't missed anything here.
Cool. I manually added the weapon training attack and damage bonus, including the extra damage from trained throw.
Though I'm unsure if the bonus from weapon training at 10th level would be +1 or if it would scale up like normal weapon training. The way the ability is written it scales, but you never get weapon training 2.
But I'm unsure if weapon training 2 just adds a new weapon group, or if it includes the scale up of the damage.
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"Scales up, but no extra groups" was also my read. I believe you have it correct there as well. ^_^
Cool, thanks for your help.
This actually makes weapon throwing warpriest very viable, especially with the human FCB of extra bonus feats.
If I've calculated everything correctly my build would have +22/+22/+17 attack at 1d6+21 without even casting Divine Favor/Power.
Magdelen
Male human warpriest (molthuni arsenal chaplain) of Desna 10 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 60, Weapon Master's Handbook 6)
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +16
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 20, flat-footed 22 (+7 armor, +2 deflection, +6 Dex, +2 luck, +1 natural)
hp 73 (10d8+20)
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +13; +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 starknife +18/+13 (1d6+20/×3) or
starknife +16/+11 (1d6+12/×3)
Special Attacks blessings 8/day, fervor 8/day (3d6), sacred weapon (+2 1d10, 10 rounds/day), weapon training (sacred weapons)
Warpriest (Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain) Spells Prepared (CL 10th; concentration +13)
4th—divine power
3rd—cure serious wounds (2), dispel magic, protection from energy
2nd—cure moderate wounds (4), ironskin
1st—divine favor (5), protection from evil
0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, light, purify food and drink (DC 13), read magic
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +7; CMD 28 (32 vs. disarm, 32 vs. sunder)
Feats Advanced Weapon Training, Point Blank Master[APG], Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Quicken Blessing[ACG], Rapid Shot, Ricochet Toss, Starry Grace, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (starknife), Weapon Specialization (starknife)
Traits faithful artist, fate's favored
Skills Diplomacy +12, Knowledge (religion) +14, Perception +16, Perform (dance) +13, Profession (courtesan) +16, Sense Motive +16
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ blessing (war: battle lust, war mind)
Combat Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier[UE]; Other Gear +2 mithral kikko armor[UC], +2 starknife, starknife, bracers of falcon's aim[UE], gloves of dueling[APG], handy haversack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, mess kit[UE], soap, trail rations (5), waterskin, 5,896 gp, 9 sp
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Tracked Resources
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+2 starknife - 0/1
Armor Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
Aspect of the Falcon (Constant) - 0/0
Blessings (8/day) (Su) - 0/8
Fervor (3d6, 8/day) (Su) - 0/8
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) - 0/1
Sacred Weapon +2 (10 rounds/day) (Su) - 0/10
Starknife - 0/1
Trail rations - 0/5
Weapon Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
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Special Abilities
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Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Blessings (8/day) (Su) Pool of power used to activate Blessing abilities.
Fervor (3d6, 8/day) (Su) Standard action, touch channels positive/negative energy to heal or harm. Swift to cast spell on self.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Quicken Blessing (War Blessing) Expend 2 uses of blessings to deliver selected blessing as swift action.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Ricochet Toss Throwing weapon returns immediately after attack is resolved.
Sacred Weapon +2 (10 rounds/day) (Su) As a swift action, grant weapon enhancement bonus or certain powers.
Starry Grace Use Dexterity on starknife damage rolls
Trained Throw (-Choose-) (Ex) Thrown weapon atk using Dex mod, add double training bonus to damage.
Weapon Training (Sacred Weapons) +2 (Ex) +2 to hit and damage with your sacred weapons.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
Just noticed that Herolab continues to show the incorrect attack bonuses and damage under the hero summary.
In order to get the correct values you have to look under the weapons specific tab (with thrown weapons) because the game defaults to melee on them.
For thrown attacks, the 1d6+21 at 22/22/17 is correct (includes Rapid Shot)
"Scales up, but no extra groups" was also my read. I believe you have it correct there as well. ^_^
I would say it scales and offers groups.
Unlike some options like rage, which are upgraded via independant abilities (ie- rage gives +4/+4, and greater rage is a different ability that upgrades rage to +6/+6), everything involving weapon training is in weapon training itself. So if you get weapon training 'as the fighter class feature', then you get everythin written under the feature, including the extra groups.
It is still more restrictive than weapon training, mind you. It relies on the fact that you can only use it with sacred weapons, which means spending feats on weapon focus. Even within the same group, you can't apply it if you don't have the feat (ie- have daggers, can't use it with rapier)
Contributor
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That's not an unreasonable assessment, lemeres. ^_^
That said, while developer posts are not "officially official", we do have this.
So, a thought just occurred to me about an error in my build here.
Starry Grace can't be combined with Trained Throw. Trained Throw specifies that it requires strength to damage while using dex to attack rolls.
So, what works best Starry Grace without Trained Throw? Strength build using Belt of Mighty Hurling (important to note that we're using Automatic Bonus progression so stat increasing belt isn't needed which also makes the belt of Mighty Hurling cheaper)? Or using Dex to attack rolls with strength to damage and using Trained Throw to double Weapon Training effect?
Currently with weapon training on the character at a +2 and gloves of dueling that's +4 to attack and damage. Trained Throw adds another 4 damage for 8 total.
Starry Grace allows 7 damage and I don't have to worry about splitting enhancement bonuses between dex and strength (I can instead focus on dex and then increase con).
The strength build I guess works out about the same as the starry grace build, but theoretically has less AC or a slower movement speed with heavier armor.
Thoughts on which way to go?
So current base stats are (20pt buy):
Str 10
Dex 16 +2 from human choice +2 leveling +2 enhancement ABP = 22
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14 +2 form ABP = 16
Cha 8
You could basically do the same for a strength build, simply swap dex and strength, but this leaves you with no dex bonus to AC.
And lastly you could maybe do something like this for Trained Throw build which requires strength and dex:
Str 14
Dex 16 +2 human + 2 leveling +2 ABP = 22
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 14 +2 from ABP = 16
Cha 7
You still have to prioritize dex over strength because you need to hit. Trained throw will add +4 damage and strength will add +2.
But currently Starry Grace adds 7 damage.
At level 13 you get your second physical stat bonus, which could be used on strength to give you +3 to strength and weapon training reaches +3 (+5 with gloves of dueling). Which means Trained Throw adds +5 damage.
But at that same level your Dex mod will be +8 and you can put your secondary physical ability increase into con for extra HP.
Just note, Trained Throw won't work with a belt of mighty hurling either. For trained throw, you need Dex to Hit and Str to Damage. If you are using Str to Hit, it shuts down just as it does with Dex to Damage.
I'm aware of that, but it may not have came through clearly.
Thats why I think strength only build is the least viable.
It's really more of a question of Starry Grace dex build or Trained Throw Dex and Str build.
Just note, Trained Throw won't work with a belt of mighty hurling either. For trained throw, you need Dex to Hit and Str to Damage. If you are using Str to Hit, it shuts down just as it does with Dex to Damage.
Yep, it you're using the belt, your best bet is to max out your strength and use two handed thrower for 1.5 damage.
Just note, Trained Throw won't work with a belt of mighty hurling either. For trained throw, you need Dex to Hit and Str to Damage. If you are using Str to Hit, it shuts down just as it does with Dex to Damage.Yep, it you're using the belt, your best bet is to max out your strength and use two handed thrower for 1.5 damage.
Yeah, which is why for this character who wants to specialize in Starknives it doesn't make any sense to go strength build.
As a side note, you will need Two-Handed Thrower to throw two-handed weapons at your full rate of attacks.
An option to maybe consider is taking a level of Primal Hunter Barbarian and the extra rage feat.
The primal hunter gives you all the normal bonuses/penalties of rage EXCEPT it trades the will save for a +2 to ranged attack rolls. So if you go str with it you get to "double up" on the accuracy part.
Which feats are you taking for you fighter feats and at what levels?
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I would say go starry grace, since you're already planning on taking weapon finesse, and starry grace works for both melee and thrown damage. At high levels trained throw can provide a little more damage, but for a large portion of the players life the damage will be fairly similar, while starry grace having the melee advantage.
An option to maybe consider is taking a level of Primal Hunter Barbarian and the extra rage feat.
The primal hunter gives you all the normal bonuses/penalties of rage EXCEPT it trades the will save for a +2 to ranged attack rolls. So if you go str with it you get to "double up" on the accuracy part.
Eh, I'm not sure I like that idea. If it was just for a fighter build it would be fine, but I'm using this on a warpriest. Rage will prevent spell casting and delay the acquisition of new spell levels.
I would say go starry grace, since you're already planning on taking weapon finesse, and starry grace works for both melee and thrown damage. At high levels trained throw can provide a little more damage, but for a large portion of the players life the damage will be fairly similar, while starry grace having the melee advantage.
I was only taking weapon finesse to qualify for starry grace and the character has point blank master, so I wont ever use the starknives as a melee weapon (or perform melee attacks all). The character is starting at 10th level.
Oh, but I did think of reason not to go strength based. Dex based requirements for feats, specifically Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot both require at least 13 dex, which reduces how much strength you can buy. If I was going to go two-handed weapons it might be worth it to drop weapon finesse and starry grace and focus mostly on strength. But your AC will still be less and you wont be able to pump your strength as much.
It still doesn't help me decide whether Starry Grace or Trained Throw is better.
I think in the long run Trained Throw would end up being better, but it will take probably until Weapon Training reaches a +4, which is 17th level. Probably not worth it I think.
At very low levels though, Starry Grace is a much better way to go as it gives you melee options until you get all the feats you need to really make a throwing build work.
Claxon: Overall I agree. Why not take both? Pick up your Starry Grace feats at the start with fighter feats and swap out the feats as you level up with your 1/4 level free retrain?
Claxon: Overall I agree. Why not take both? Pick up your Starry Grace feats at the start with fighter feats and swap out the feats as you level up with your 1/4 level free retrain?
That's a good point. At high levels where I will have more ability to to boost strength and dex (and wont need to worry about con as much because more HD) and the doubled bonus from Trained Throw will more than make up for low strength modifier compared to dex, but I can retrain Starry Grace and Weapon Finesse into other more useful feats (including 1 into Advanced Weapon Training-->Trained Throw).
Solid idea.