So, the martial/caster disparity. It's a controversial topic on these boards. One point I see coming up time and again as a way that magical characters invalidate martial characters is the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells allowing a wizard/druid/whatever flavor of caster essentially create a fighter on the spot.
What happens to the game if Summon Monster, Summon Nature's Ally, and all supernatural/spell-like abilities that worked like them were simply gone? If the only way a wizard could use demons in combat was the call them with planar binding and negotiate with them? If Druids couldn't make a Tyrannosaurus spontaneously appear in the middle of the ocean?
And while you answer my query, I ask that everyone keep the conversation civil. If someone's answer on this thread makes you mad, maybe take a break from the internet from a bit.
Well honestly SNA is not that bad.
It just makes flat meat shields, nothing more.
The real.issues come woth SM. I mean, with a single SM IX you can summon a creature with a +3long sword and the abiloty to fly, have walls of immunoties and such, and cast Heal and CSW mass... (trumpet archon). The SM spell just amplifies mages with HUGE versatility.
I mean, heck, look at the SM list vs SNA list. The SM list is HUGE.
I personally hate PCs having access to those spells; it makes every round of combat longer and overcrowds the table, PCs having it just slows down and over complicates the game. For GMs who give their NPCs one of these spells they know exactly what monster they will be summoning and will plan the ecounter accordingly.
Amen, Diminuendo.
Only unprepared and unexperienced summoners take forever...
If your playing a summoner type, you should know what everyrhinf does and plan out well ahead of time.
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The problem with summons is that it gives a single player several characters that will act and have some impact on play. Even worse that these additional characters have no stake in surviving, so the player can have them do life-threatening stuff with zero long-term risk (which is a big difference with, say, cohorts or companions).
So, the summons allow the caster's player to shine in the game much more than the martial's player.
The only case where I feel this is desirable is when the caster is fulfilling a necessary but not glamorous role (say healbot).
So, the martial/caster disparity. It's a controversial topic on these boards. One point I see coming up time and again as a way that magical characters invalidate martial characters is the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells allowing a wizard/druid/whatever flavor of caster essentially create a fighter on the spot.
What happens to the game if Summon Monster, Summon Nature's Ally, and all supernatural/spell-like abilities that worked like them were simply gone? If the only way a wizard could use demons in combat was the call them with planar binding and negotiate with them? If Druids couldn't make a Tyrannosaurus spontaneously appear in the middle of the ocean?
And while you answer my query, I ask that everyone keep the conversation civil. If someone's answer on this thread makes you mad, maybe take a break from the internet from a bit.
Getting rid of summons is an important step in the right direction, but as others have pointed out, it is not sufficient. Even without summons, Druids and Oracles/Clerics are able to replace the melee role of the martials with minimal effort basically whenever they want to. This problem also needs to be addressed in the process of working through a fix.
Druids would have some other sort of spontaneous casting.
It has been done before in 3.5 3rd party settings (worlds largest dungeon and dungeonworld both blocks summoning. Dungeonworld also blocks all divine casting as well, so it nerfs it too far in the other direction).
The thing is, summoning is good in small parties at low levels. With a three person team, it can save lives. In a five or six person party, it soon creates a skirmish boardgame.
Past 8th level, the game becomes wonky. Most fantasy films/novels would have characters capable of around 3rd-8th level abilities. No martials that can swim a few rounds n lava without magic, no simulacrum teleporting wish madness. All of that is for a later time.
I think the point is that 3rd-8th level is the sweet spot for me. Casters aren't tapped after four spells, and yet can't pull so many shenanigans that the martials feel left in the dust when it comes to narrative / out-of-combat things. That's the level playing field area (in my opinion).
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Well I bet that farmer half across the world or up in heaven or Hell (for creatures with templates) will be happy their animals quite disappearing for 20 seconds then suddenly appear again fire scorched and butchered.
"Curseth thee! I had but one Schilling to pay before the beast was mine!
Why does this keep happening to me!"
Only unprepared and unexperienced summoners take forever...
If your playing a summoner type, you should know what everyrhinf does and plan out well ahead of time.
I couldn't agree more with this statement.
I spent a LONG time (weeks, I believe, here and there) creating a spreadsheet that has all of my summoner's options, with Augment Summoning, and bits of programming that would auto update certain stats in specific situations, so when I finally brought the character to the table I was able to know what critter I needed and what their capabilities were.
It was the most work I've put into any character (my transmuter came close, however), but I think it was worth it and the least I could do for my group. I didn't want them to have to worry about me slowing down gameplay, trying to figure out what to summon.
I also promised the table that I would limit the amount of summoned creatures out at once (I am playing a Master Summoner, after all, so I know it can easily get out of hand). I've been debating, at the next game, making the offer to let other players take over one of the creatures so they can do something during my turn if they wish.
Oh, but to the original poster, I've always liked the idea of summon spells, but I understand why people don't like them. I think you could get some mileage out of making them real beings that you summon, and while if they die while summoned it doesn't kill them, maybe the next time you summon the guy he doesn't necessarily want to listen to your crazy ideas anymore.
For example, you summon a hound archon to rush into the battle against the dragon so you can get away. He dies in a horrible acid breath weapon attack, but you get away. Next time you summon a hound archon, it's the same guy and he recognizes you and you have to convince him to do something like that again.
It also gives the opportunity for (in my opinion) some good role-playing so your character can develop relationships with their summoned allies and maybe won't be so quick to sacrifice them.
"Morning, Sam." "Morning, Ralph. What do you have for me today?" :)
Well honestly SNA is not that bad.
It just makes flat meat shields, nothing more.
Constitution Damage is nothing to sneeze at...
I think there area few main misconceptions about summoning monsters. First off, people miss the actual CRs of the critters. It starts out of limited value and gets worse as the party levels up. Yes, with Augment Summoning and Superior Summoning, you can mitigate this to some degree, but it still doesn't change all that much. Yes, at top level, you can get CR 13s, but if the party is CR 17 minimum, do even two CR 13s change the combat all that much? Not really, in my experience.
Second, the action economy is awful. Spending an entire round casting it for a fight that on average lasts three is huge. Yes, the critter gets to act, but again, they are sharply lower level than you. See, you have to compare it to what other spells you could be casting.
Third, yes, you can do Std action summoning, but if you do, you instead lose a lot of options. Evil has it easy with Summon Evil Monster, but otherwise it is Sacred Summons, and that only lets you summon a very few critters (those with alignment subtypes, so the animals are out) as Std actions. Depending on alignment, you have a few, as in two or three.
Fourth, some critters break the mold, such as the Lantern archon, the Bralani eladrin, and the dire tiger, but most are pretty much useless outside certain abilities like the earth glide for earth elementals
Properly used, I really don't see a problem. Most of the time as a summoning focused cleric at least, the SM spells sat unused because they were not up to the task.
Also, don't summoned creatures have some will of their own?
If a summon monster can create the equivalent of your party's fighter, then I'd have to conclude that you venture with the worst fighters on the planet.So, the martial/caster disparity. It's a controversial topic on these boards. One point I see coming up time and again as a way that magical characters invalidate martial characters is the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells allowing a wizard/druid/whatever flavor of caster essentially create a fighter on the spot.
Implying that the Fighter's optimization matters in regards to creatures that can just cast Heal on themselves and be more than competent enough in a melee fight while the Casters continue to do their thing.
Hysterical.
Now, if you were talking Barbarians or Paladins? Totally different story there.
The martials would have been useless in the final fight of my last campaign.
I used trumpet archons and elder elementals to heal the martials and pick them up and move them next to the boss when it wasn't their turn. So they could full attack.
Summoning is a buff spell and allows unoptimised casters to be effective in combat. My last sorceress took skill focus 3 times and the only action she ever did in combat was summoning. At 20th level in full gear, I only had 26 charisma. She did have augment summoning.
Creatures that can "just" cast Heal on themselves, and be more than competent enough in a melee fight?
Sorry, you need to read up a little something called Action economy. The round you spend casting Heal is a round you don't do any other attacks or the like. At high levels, the amount of healing you get from a Heal spell is quite often less (and by quite some, too) than the damage inflicted on the target during the round. Sure, 150 hp is not nothing, but if 200 hp gets done at the same time, you just delayed things a bit and STILL lost 50 hp.
As for "competent enough", a CR 13 is not going to be "competent enough" compared to a decent CR 18 martial, more or less no matter what you do.
Creatures that can "just" cast Heal on themselves, and be more than competent enough in a melee fight?
Sorry, you need to read up a little something called Action economy. The round you spend casting Heal is a round you don't do any other attacks or the like. At high levels, the amount of healing you get from a Heal spell is quite often less (and by quite some, too) than the damage inflicted on the target during the round. Sure, 150 hp is not nothing, but if 200 hp gets done at the same time, you just delayed things a bit and STILL lost 50 hp.
As for "competent enough", a CR 13 is not going to be "competent enough" compared to a decent CR 18 martial, more or less no matter what you do.
Note, many of the higher level creatures also have Dispel... and flight... also, you are thinking of it kinda wrong. Think.of it this way, the summoner is now makin a meatshield AMD healing in a single rpund. Oh and next round? The thing that just healed? Its attacking, and IN THE SAME TURN there is another guy healing, AND the summoner is making ANOTHER ONE. You know, action economy. Every turn he is getting more actions than you. By a lot.
Oh and of he summons from summon monstrr 8 instead? That is 1d4+1 (cuz who doesnt take superior summons...) vreatures. So now.your grewtly increasing your action economy. At a certain point you become a literal army...and Master Summoners can pull that off xD
Oh and to further show, say heal heals for 150 and ypu do 200. Cool. So that is -50 net. Next turn there are now 2 heals. That is 300, nut ypu still only.do 200... so that +100 net. Next turn it gets worse... eventually, unless you can 1 shot, ypu are screwed.
Expanded summoning for clerics (MSH) has a few extra interesting options...
Summons don't replace the martials in combat; heck, they don't even replace a "pet" like an animal companion or eidolon in many cases!
What they are is a more versatile form of battlefield control than the standard create pit, web, stinking cloud, black tentacles, etc. Certain specific options have some additional functionality, like healing, but that's really it; they're "disposable" mobile minions to set up flanking, block charge lanes, soak up enemy attacks/actions, and so on (and incidentally cause some damage).
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Summons don't replace the martials in combat; heck, they don't even replace a "pet" like an animal companion or eidolon in many cases!
What they are is a more versatile form of battlefield control than the standard create pit, web, stinking cloud, black tentacles, etc. Certain specific options have some additional functionality, like healing, but that's really it; they're "disposable" mobile minions to set up flanking, block charge lanes, soak up enemy attacks/actions, and so on (and incidentally cause some damage).
What they are is a source for more actions on the caster's player's part. More actions, especially in combat, mean more limelight and a greater impact on the combat. Which is a pretty big part of most games.
In a system where fights last, on average, up to three rounds, that should be negligible. The core problem is that they replace a caster's actions with actions from a significantly weaker creature, often one round later. And the gods help you if you actually summon even weaker creatures, that just makes it ridiculous, a way to clog the battlemat with useless critters.
Also, if you summon eighth level creatures, you get 1d3+1 with Superior summoning and SMIX. You really have to apply the rules correctly to judge whether summoning is powerful. So, IIRC, SMVIII gets you CR 11 critters, meaning you get two (EL 13) to four (EL 15) of them, each creature seven CRs below the PCs. In most guides for designing encounters, that is at or even below the level of "don't bother".
The real strengths of summoning as a strategy are the flexibility it gets you in terms of at casting options and the tactical possibilities it gets you. It is far from a win button.
In a system where fights last, on average, up to three rounds, that should be negligible. The core problem is that they replace a caster's actions with actions from a significantly weaker creature, often one round later. And the gods help you if you actually summon even weaker creatures, that just makes it ridiculous, a way to clog the battlemat with useless critters.
Also, if you summon eighth level creatures, you get 1d3+1 with Superior summoning and SMIX. You really have to apply the rules correctly to judge whether summoning is powerful.
The question is not whether or not summons are the most efficient option for casters in all situations, but rather whether or not they allow casters to simply dispense with martials and go it alone. The answer, of course, is that they absolutely do allow casters to proceed without martials. The creatures summoned aren't as good as same-level PC martial characters, but they are good enough in their role as "meatshields" or "beatsticks" to allow the caster time and space to defeat his enemies with more direct spells.
That, and the Summon Monster line offers creatures with a wide variety of useful SLAs, a fact which is cynically abused by caster players looking for a "solution to everything" spell.
Really? If you were an opponent, say a barbarian, and you saw a wizard summon a bunch of critters, what would you do? I would say "take a few AoOs to smash stupid casty before he does more critters". If the wizard can't summon as Std action (remember, the animal beatsticks do not come as Std actions usually), the barbarian can do even better, including interrupting the very long casting time. Note that yes, in a situation where you both have good advance warning and limited mobility (a ridiculously long corridor, perhaps, I am not sure), yes, summoning is very powerful.
It should be obvious that with the SLAs, the disparity of CR gets even more pronounced. You are trading a level X spell for a SLA of level (around) X-3. Again, often even one round later.
Except usually Caster DO have advanced warning. Its not that hard... and they CAN interrupt the battlefield. Just cast Black tentacles and have fun...
Expendability only ever matters as an advantage if they actually help. You really should compare the summoning spell with what other options are available, and remember to apply as many feats etc to the other options before you compare.
Except usually Caster DO have advanced warning. Its not that hard... and they CAN interrupt the battlefield. Just cast Black tentacles and have fun...
Are you being serious? The caster should now cast Black tentacles to hold up the opponents so they can then summon something to hold up the opponents, so they can THEN apply more direct firepower??? Not to mention the Black tentacles will screw over their own summoned creatures as well? I understood your suggestion correctly?
Invisibility+summon monster = solo most encounters.
Mind blank + summon monster + invisibility = solo all encounters
It's not resource efficient unless you have a whole party of Pokemon masters.
Another way for a caster to replace martials is by using either planar binding or animate dead for that round 1 meat wall before you get off a summon.
Summons also work really well with martials. Summoning is just really good.
Except usually Caster DO have advanced warning. Its not that hard... and they CAN interrupt the battlefield. Just cast Black tentacles and have fun...Are you being serious? The caster should now cast Black tentacles to hold up the opponents so they can then summon something to hold up the opponents, so they can THEN apply more direct firepower??? Not to mention the Black tentacles will screw over their own summoned creatures as well? I understood your suggestion correctly?
If you have distance, black tentacles is a solid start.
Then you bring your summons. Since you are dropping Black tentacles, you are most likely summoning things THAT CAN FLY. So you can just flaot 5 ft about the tentacles and poke at the barbarian from above (oh and you get higher ground bonus ftw).
Also, between black tentacles and summons, you really dont need to do much more. Wizards dont NEED to blast at all. In fact, as a control wizard, you should be able end the battle before ever having to deal blasts.
Or you can summon Lantern Archons and just pew pew them to death... that is always fun :P. and you can summon so many at once that it can really get rediculous really fast. (I had a Master Summoner once that made it point of only summoning Lanterns and literally spamming the field with them... that got rediculous really fast)
Really? If you were an opponent, say a barbarian, and you saw a wizard summon a bunch of critters, what would you do? I would say "take a few AoOs to smash stupid casty before he does more critters". If the wizard can't summon as Std action (remember, the animal beatsticks do not come as Std actions usually), the barbarian can do even better, including interrupting the very long casting time. Note that yes, in a situation where you both have good advance warning and limited mobility (a ridiculously long corridor, perhaps, I am not sure), yes, summoning is very powerful.
Are you talking about an individual wizard, alone in the world...naked but for his robe and spellbook, stumbling into single combat against a barbarian of equal level without any kind of forewarning? I don't think this scenario is illustrative of anything resembling typical play.
As soon as you have two casters together (or even one caster with forewarning), the combination of a battlefield control spell and a summons on the first round of combat is really quite effective, and yes, the summons effectively takes the place of what the martials would be doing. It's not a good as having real martials, but it is sufficient for casters to get through many encounters without any martials...encounters which would almost certainly kill martials of the same level without casters.
Oh if we throw necromancy in the mix...
Bloody Skeletons put most martials to shame...
sure they dont hit well... but you can have ltos of them... and they are damn near indestructable...
Heck, just look up see how many people complain about the Master Summoner... if that doesnt spell out just how rediculous summons can get....
Oh and First WOrlder can also get REALLY funny...