The Swindler is probably my favorite part of the new Harrow Handbook. It's not particularly powerful, but it's the most flavorful archetype I've seen from Paizo in a while now. So, let's explore this guy a little. If we build a Swindler out to, say, 10th level, what are some interesting directions we could take?
Quote: Let Fate Decide (Ex): At 1st level, the Sczarni swindler can declare two different actions that rely on different types of rolls or checks, such as attacking a creature (an attack roll) or sneaking past the same creature (a Stealth check). As a standard action, the swindler then uses a random method to choose one of the declared activities, such as flipping a coin, rolling a die, or drawing a harrow card... If the swindler then performs the chosen activity within the next round, she gains a luck bonus on the roll type required for that activity — attack rolls with a specific weapon, a specific skill check, a specific ability check, or a specific saving throw—equal to half her rogue level (minimum +1) for 1 minute. If the swindler performs any other action (whether declared or not) in the round after using this ability, she becomes shaken for 1 minute instead. The swindler can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This ability replaces trapfinding. As I've said already, I love this ability; it's very situational, but it's flavorful as hell. And if you combine it with the Fate's Favored trait (+1 to any luck bonus), then it gets a lot better, especially at low levels; a situational +2 on attack rolls, saves and skill checks at levels 1-3 is nothing to sneeze at.
In build terms, this ability encourages you to invest in being a skill monkey. You'd do that anyway, of course, but it particularly favors skills like Bluff and Intimidate. These in turn encourage you to boost your Cha. (Which is a problem with the Swindler: he's MADdy. We'll get to that.)
Quote: Quicker Than the Eye (Ex): At 2nd level, when the Sczarni swindler uses Sleight of Hand, creatures take a penalty on their Perception checks equal to half the swindler’s class level to notice the attempt. The swindler also reduces the normal –20 penalty by an amount equal to her class level when attempting a Sleight of Hand check as a move action instead of as a standard action. Lastly, the swindler can draw hidden weapons or objects from her person as a move action instead of the usual standard action. This ability replaces evasion.
This is identical to the ability gained by the Halfling Filcher rogue archetype. Which is fine; I don't mind Paizo occasionally recycling stuff, and it's a nice fit here.
So, where does this lead us in build terms? Well, investing max ranks in Sleight of Hand, obviously. You're an accomplished pickpocket, and... um, what do people use SoH for besides picking pockets? The reduced penalty means that at higher levels you can SoH twice in a round, or use SoH and do something else. I'm honestly not sure how great that is -- this isn't a skill I or my players use much -- so I'm open to suggestions. Finally, the "draw as a move" is great for sneak attacks from a flat start: you're standing there chatting and then, wham. An interesting question is whether you could combine this with the Quick Draw feat ("draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action; draw a hidden weapon as a move action") to draw a hidden weapon as a free action. I could see arguments on either side on that one.
Quote: Poker Face (Ex): At 3rd level, the Sczarni swindler gains a +1 bonus on Bluff, Profession (gambler), and Sense Motive checks. This bonus increases by 1 for every 3 levels beyond 3rd. The Sczarni swindler can also attempt to feint against non-humanoid targets without penalty, though she still takes a –8 penalty on feint attempts against creatures with animal intelligence and she cannot feint against mindless creatures. This ability replaces trap sense. I have mixed feelings about this one. Bonuses to three skills, two useful and one flavorful -- okay. Feinting against non-humanoids is nice, and thematically consistent. It does mean you'll want to invest in Improved Feint, which is fine for a rogue except you have to pay the wretched Combat Expertise [hawk, spit] feat tax.
Quote: No Fool (Ex): At 4th level, the Sczarni swindler gains a
+1 bonus on Will saving throws. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 4th (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level). This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Nice, and thematic. Worth giving up Uncanny Dodge? Less certain. But note that if you throw Iron Will in there, you have about the same Will save as your average wizard or sorceror.
Quote: Cheat Fate (Ex): At 8th level, once per day, the Sczarni swindler can reroll any one d20 roll she has just made before the GM has revealed the result. She must take the result of the second roll, even if it is worse. The swindler can use this ability twice per day at 14th level, and three times per day at 20th. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge. Normally I dislike reroll powers. (Don't get me started on the stupid samurai and his wretched resolves.) At least this is thematic. An interesting question is whether it can be used together with the Let Fate Decide feature. I'd say yes -- you can roll a d20 to determine your coin flip, right?
So, building. You want to have good Dex, decent Int, decent Cha for all those Cha-based skills, and don't dump Str and Con since you'll be a second-rank fighter. Ugh -- that's really MADdy. A 15 point build might look something like Str 13 Con 12 Dex 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 13 -- if you're human or half human, bump Dex +2, and put your first two level-ups on Str and Cha. Alternately, Str 14 Con 12 Dex 15 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 13, +2 on Dex, level-up Dex and then Cha. Either way, resign yourself to being a character who is good at a wide range of things without being outstanding at anything. Such is the life of the MAD PC.
Skills: human with 10 Int or other with 12 Int = 9 ranks per level. Max out Bluff, Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive, and Sleight of Hand. Throw one rank every 3 levels at Acrobatics, Appraise, Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Profession (Gambler) and three other skills of your choice.
Traits: Fate's Favored, of course. Reactive is hard to avoid. Anything else that might go with this?
Feats: well, Improved Initiative is a no-brainer for a rogue. Combat Expertise (sigh) and Improved Feint would come next. And then Skill Focus (Bluff). Then the question becomes, do you take other stuff from the Combat Expertise tree? Like, Improved Disarm combined with the Advanced Talent Weapon Snatcher, since he's going to be maxing Sleight of Hand anyway. And I think Iron Will would go in there somewhere. Otherwise, open to suggestions.
Rogue Talents: Well, the ones that let you reroll Bluff and Sleight of Hand checks. Weapon Snatcher, see above, when you reach 10th level. What else?
Role-playing: Have a name that ends in a vowel, and at least one gold tooth.
Thoughts?
Doug M.
I have only one questionnbefore I throw out thoughts? Do you want human or half orc? Both are very viable and both have their advantages. Just need to know which direction to go.
I'm inclined to think human... what's the particular benefit of half-orc?
Doug M.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: I'm inclined to think human... what's the particular benefit of half-orc?
Doug M.
Got to be brief since I'm on a work break. The principle benefit of the half orc is your gaining survivability in battle VS the humans ability to have biggest gains to skills. Since fates favored is already in play having sacred tattoo grants +2 to all saves, making more and more benefit to the trait. Also this class is horrible when it comes to saves so this could be a liter life saver.
Half orc misses out on the bonus feat but by replacing darkvision can get skilled. If you don't like intimidate getting endurance feat is a decent trade off. Rogue weapons stink so having access to big two handed weapons granted by half orc isn't too bad. If I recall the half orc has access to all the same racial feats that human does that gives rerolls and big skill bonuses.
Personally I like the Skilled, sacred tattoo, shaman's apprentice half orc with fate's favored.
You get the +2 luck bonus on save throws, endurance and the skilled human bonus. You still have your weapon familiarity as well.
However since you are going with the swindler burning assurance might be a better choice for you (instead of shaman's apprentice).
Snake style, to use your bonus to sense motive. Rogue ac is typically bad, so that's a help.
If you're looking at skill focus for sense motive or SoH or whatever, Focused Study for humans is a must.
Trap Finder trait if you value disabling magical traps.
Lastly, Improved Evasion at 10 gives you the evasion you lost at 2nd, and then some.
I second trap finder trait. Was going to say that but I got beat. At this point extra traits might be a worthwhile feat.
Sacred Tattoo + Fate's Favored is a nice hack! I wasn't aware of it. Wow, that gives this build very respectable saves. At 6th level your base saves are now Fort +4 Ref +7 Will +5, which puts you roughly equal to the monk (+5/+5/+5). At 12th level you're still competitive with the monk -- +6/+10/+8 vs. +8/+8/+8. That's impressive.
Thematically, I think intimidate is a better fit than Endurance. Keep in mind that Intimidate is attractive because it gives you an alternative action you can choose with Let Fate Decide -- use Diplomacy / Intimidate, attack / Intimidate, and so forth. Similarly, the big damn half-orc weapon is mechanically good, but thematically not a great fit. (And the Quicker Than The Eye ability nudges you towards light weapons anyway.)
Snake Style with Skill Focus could be pretty amazing. It does get a little feat-intensive -- that's three feats in order to get great AC (sometimes). Glutton is right: combination with Focused Study would be the way to go, if human. (Question about Snake Style: it says "You can use the result as your AC or touch AC against that attack". Does that mean you /must/ use the result? Or can you choose, so that if you rolled really badly, can you keep your normal AC? The wording favors the latter to me.)
Doug M.
Excuse the necro, but I've been thinking about this build recently.
Start with Str 12 Con 12 Dex 14 Int 12 Wis 11 Cha 13 -- first bumps will be on Wis and Cha. Race is half-orc in order to gain Sacred Tattoo, and swap out skilled for darkvision because this guy's a skill monkey. Traits are Fate's Favored and Reactive.
Level
1 -- Improved Unarmed Strike. Not a great feat for a first level rogue, but a prereq for Snake Style. And hey -- at least it's flavorful.
2 -- Rogue talent: Fast Getaway. At low levels, before iterative attacks, this is a very solid rogue talent, and it fits with the character concept. Sneak attack, withdraw; next round, move to flank, SA again.
3 -- Snake Style. At this point he gets +3 ranks +3 class +1 Poker Face +2 Snake Style = +9, meaning an average AC of 19-20. Next level the Wis bump and another rank will increase this to 21-22, which is more than respectable for a fourth level rogue.
4 -- Rogue talent: Underhanded. Woo, max damage on SAs against unsuspecting foes. Synergizes nicely with this guy's "draw hidden weapon as a move action" power.
5 -- Ugggh hate to do this but: Combat Expertise. This nearly worthless feat is the tax to get Improved Feint.
Pause. Thoughts so far?
Doug M.
Instead of taking IUS, get 1 level of Snakebite Striker. Full BAB, gets you +1d6 SA, IUS.... nice stuff all things considered.
I think Fast Getaway is a bad talent. I'd pick up offensive defense. It's great.
I'm pretty sure you can't really use underhanded; you can't make a sneak attack in a surprise round with a hidden weapon, since drawing a hidden weapon is a move action, and you only get 1 action in the surprise round. It's basically a posterboy for broken rogue talents. You may argue that quickdraw can reduce that move action to a free... but I don't think that flies by RAW.
LoneKnave wrote: Instead of taking IUS, get 1 level of Snakebite Striker. Full BAB, gets you +1d6 SA, IUS.... nice stuff all things considered.
Wow, that might be worth it. I don't normally love multiclassing, but this actually gives you more SA dice and a better attack bonus -- pretty sweet.
Quote: I think Fast Getaway is a bad talent. I'd pick up offensive defense. It's great. I didn't realize that dodge bonus is against *all* attacks, not just the person you're fighting! Wow, nice. And it synergizes with the extra SA die you pick up for Brawler.
Quote: I'm pretty sure you can't really use underhanded; you can't make a sneak attack in a surprise round with a hidden weapon, since drawing a hidden weapon is a move action, and you only get 1 action in the surprise round. It's basically a posterboy for broken rogue talents. You may argue that quickdraw can reduce that move action to a free... but I don't think that flies by RAW. Well, you have Quicker Than The Eye, which lets you draw a concealed weapon as a move action. So ISTM that you could roll init, and if you won, you'd be able to draw and strike with Underhanded.
Doug M.
Brawler also gives you Brawler's cunning, which lets your INT count as 13 for feats; saves you a few points if you really want combat expertise.
Quicker than the eye is what I mean when I say that you can draw as move, so with quickdraw, you could maybe draw as a free. However, since in the surprize round you only get one action, and you need to make a sneak attack to actually use underhanded, you could be able to either draw a concealed weapon, or make an attack, but not both.
After looking into the rules a bit deeper, there may be a small shimmer of hope: you can charge on a surprize round as a standard action, and charge says you may draw a weapon during it, with the extra limitation that if you use it as a standard action, you need to have quickdraw. I haven't actually found anything limiting this draw to non-hidden weapons (plus you have both Quicker than the eye and Quickdraw). So you could possibly use underhanded on your first attack if you charge someone in the surprise round.
Okay, so Underhanded probably not worth it unless there's a rules clarification. Check. In that case, the way to go might be to dip a level of Snakebite Striker, then full Sczarni Swindler, with the feat/talent build modified to 1. Alertness 2. [nothing] 3. Snake Style / Offensive Defense 4. [nothing]. 5. Combat Expertise, Resiliency [?]
-- Man, the rogue talents mostly suck, don't they. (The "roll a skill check twice, but only once per day!! ones are particularly annoying.) And there's not a lot that synergizes with the Swindler's particular strengths.
That said, there are things to like about this build. At 5th level, your saves are going to be Fort +6, Ref +11, Will +5. Your Snake Style AC will average 24-25. And you'll be rocking a +3 bonus on attacks, skill checks or saves every time you're able to use Let Fate Decide. It's definitely not an optimized build, but it could be fun to play.
Doug M.
i have once made a good one using the likes of:
dervish dance
underhanded
eldritch heritage (umbral, GM allowed... otherwise Shadow works)
moonlight stalker featline
very tight on feats but pretty useful
steadfast personality and twist away are mandatory
Secret Wizard wrote: i have once made a good one using the likes of:
A good Sczarni Swindler or a good rogue?
Quote: steadfast personality and twist away are mandatory Not sure? Steadfast personality is a great feat for Cha-based builds, but this isn't one. (And it pales before Divine Protection, which gives your Cha bonus to ALL your saves -- though you need to be able to cast second level divine spells.) And twist away is great for a standard rogue, but this guy will actually have a respectable Fort save, especially if starting with the Brawler dip.
Doug M.
I was expecting a high CHA build actually, since your daily swindlings rely on CHA, and you can kinda dump int because of the brawler dip; no need for it for feats and stuff.
@Doug: just talking about how i managed to make a competitive and useful character with the swindler without hitting other classes.
Dot
So much an NPC in my next campaign.
Secret Wizard wrote: @Doug: just talking about how i managed to make a competitive and useful character with the swindler without hitting other classes.
Interesting! Do you have a build? Also, did this build off the particular strengths of the Swindler (such as they are -- it's a class you play more for flavor than minmaxing) or was it more of a general rogue build?
Quote: I was expecting a high CHA build actually, since your daily swindlings rely on CHA, and you can kinda dump int because of the brawler dip; no need for it for feats and stuff. I mildly dislike playing low-Int characters, and I wish Paizo had made Int a little more important... if you're not an Int-based caster or a skill monkey, there's no compelling reason not to dump it. But anyway, this guy *is* a skill monkey: he really needs at least 8 ranks/level, and more is better.
It's a very MADdy build, there's no denying.
Doug M.
Yeah, I already kinda wrote down the basics in my previous post.
Race: Hobgoblin
Alt racial traits: Unfit (bonus to some CHA skills and Scimitar proficiency)
Traits: Irrepressible, Resilient
Feats:
1. Finesse
2. Combat Trick: Dervish Dance
3. Skill Focus: Stealth
4. Weapon Training (Scimitar)
5. Combat Expertise
6. Underhanded
7. Eldritch Heritage (Shadow/Umbral)
8. Offensive Defense
9. Vital Strike
10. Improved Evasion
11. Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow Well)
12. Weapon Snatcher
13. Catch Off-Guard
Playstyle: walk around with four jacks (poker cards). Whenever you must face an enemy, you have the option to pick two of four: Jack of Spades (sleight of hand, hide weapon for underhanded, remove enemy weapon for catch off guard), Jack of Hearts (bluff to distract enemy and underhanded or weapon snatch it), Jack of Diamonds (stealth using shadow well likely to underhanded from darkness) and Jack of Clubs (either touch attack from Shadow Bloodline for Max nonlethal with underhanded because no one expects the magic hand, or straight to attack)
Attributes 10 15(+2) 13(+2) 12 10 15
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