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I have seen this run two ways and I'm trying to see what way is correct.
1 - You throw the fire with a range touch attack vs the touch AC of the swarm. The issue with this way is a Spider Swarm (CR1, very common at low levels) has touch AC of 17. This is not easy to hit without a DEX based character. I have had times that we throw 6 fires without landing one. This can get expensive. Also at level one or two, this seems a little brutal. This is the way my group has run it.
2 - You throw the fire but because its a swarm you only have to hit the square it is in. This causes it to be AC 5. This is much easier and makes more sense. This was how a GM ran it at a convention I recently attended.
Which way is correct? I cant find anything backing up the 2nd method. I was really hoping that it would be the correct one.
Both are correct. You can choose to do either one of these things.
1 - Deals 1d6 damage, Reflex save or catch on fire
2 - Deals 1 splash damage only, no chance to catch on fire
Note: You can do the same thing with alchemist's bombs
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As what Robert said, but here is some clarification:
You still have to hit a swarm's AC to actually HIT it. (as in method 1)
You can't HIT a swarm by just targeting the square.
Method 2 is just damaging the swarm with the Alchemist's Fire's splash damage. Which means you just need to hit the squares, which are AC 5.
If you have an Alchemist character around. He can rely on his throw anything ability to add his INT mod to his splash weapon's damage. This also ups the splash damage from such weapons to include his INT mod.
An Alchemist have a much better change of hurting a swarm via splash damage from a splash weapon.
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I've encountered quite a few players (and GMs) that insist splash weapons are ineffective against swarms, because they can only ever deal 1 point of damage via splash. Others hold a variant view, that it's only 1 damage, but 1 damage per square that is splashed.
They stare at me in awe when I point out that an Alchemist's Fire deals 1d6+50% on a direct hit.
Thanks everyone for the response.
They stare at me in awe when I point out that an Alchemist's Fire deals 1d6+50% on a direct hit.
Issue with this is getting a direct hit is not that easy at low levels without a dex based character. Im of the mind swarms should not be in level 1-2 scenarios because of this.
I was under the impression that the direct hit portion of a splash weapon attack counted as weapon damage rather than an area attack, making the swarm immune to it just as it would be immune to, say, a thrown rock or axe. Hmm.
I was under the impression that the direct hit portion of a splash weapon attack counted as weapon damage rather than an area attack, making the swarm immune to it just as it would be immune to, say, a thrown rock or axe. Hmm.
Boooooooo
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I'll apologize before hand if I'm derailing this thread...
But does a Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon ability do damage to swarms?
ex. Alchemist's fire applied to a melee weapon?
Alchemical Weapon (Su)
At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.
The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck.
I was under the impression that the direct hit portion of a splash weapon attack counted as weapon damage rather than an area attack, making the swarm immune to it just as it would be immune to, say, a thrown rock or axe. Hmm.Boooooooo
I could be wrong....
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I've encountered quite a few players (and GMs) that insist splash weapons are ineffective against swarms, because they can only ever deal 1 point of damage via splash. Others hold a variant view, that it's only 1 damage, but 1 damage per square that is splashed.
They stare at me in awe when I point out that an Alchemist's Fire deals 1d6+50% on a direct hit.
To one target, not to all target in a square. But a swarm don't take damage from targeted attacks.
RAI almost certainly is that you deal 1d6+50%, but RAW you deal only the splash damage to a swarm.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
It's either immune to the entire effect or it takes the additional 50%. It can't be both ways.
Not to mention that in 3.5 you could damage swarms with flaming weapons among other things (and I would still allow this in pathfinder too, even PFS). There wouldn't really be a reason for swarms to have an AC otherwise.
I could be wrong....I was under the impression that the direct hit portion of a splash weapon attack counted as weapon damage rather than an area attack, making the swarm immune to it just as it would be immune to, say, a thrown rock or axe. Hmm.Boooooooo
Alchemist's Fire: A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage.
Acid: A direct hit deals 1d6 points of acid damage.
It's all energy damage, not weapon damage. So no worries about swarms being immune.
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Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack.
Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Bombs and Alchemist Fire's (or other thrown splash weapons) are SPLASH WEAPONS. They not only do splash damage, they are considered splash weapons.
Under splash weapon rules we see that on impact the damage is done when the content SPLASHES. The direct hit damage is not caused by the impact of the container, it is caused by the splash or scattering of the contents.
A swarm is immune to individually targeting individual units in a swarm. Instead it has "mass" HP and a direct hit does not mean it is direct hitting 1 individual unit in the thousands that can make up the swarm. In other words a swarm is not immune to the direct hit of the splash weapon. And since they are classified as splash weapons they still do 50% more damage.
I could be wrong....I was under the impression that the direct hit portion of a splash weapon attack counted as weapon damage rather than an area attack, making the swarm immune to it just as it would be immune to, say, a thrown rock or axe. Hmm.BooooooooAlchemist's Fire: A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage.Acid: A direct hit deals 1d6 points of acid damage.It's all energy damage, not weapon damage. So no worries about swarms being immune.
Energy isn't the problem; it's the specific targeting that causes an issue. You can't ray of frost a spider swarm either.
I'm not certain you can "hit" a swarm with any targeted weapon. Then again, while they don't have a CMD, they still have an AC, so presumably you can hit it with something. Maybe it is supposed to work.
Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack.Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.Bombs and Alchemist Fire's (or other thrown splash weapons) are SPLASH WEAPONS. They not only do splash damage, they are considered splash weapons.
Under splash weapon rules we see that on impact the damage is done when the content SPLASHES. The direct hit damage is not caused by the impact of the container, it is caused by the splash or scattering of the contents.
A swarm is immune to individually targeting individual units in a swarm. Instead it has "mass" HP and a direct hit does not mean it is direct hitting 1 individual unit in the thousands that can make up the swarm. In other words a swarm is not immune to the direct hit of the splash weapon. And since they are classified as splash weapons they still do 50% more damage.
That's pretty convincing. I'll continue to run it as allowing the direct hit, but now I feel less like it's a house rule and more like it was intended that way--still a splash, but just that more of it affects the thing you "hit".
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The swarm is not immune to target damage. It is immune to individual target spells. As in disintegrate affects 1 creature. The 1 creature gets disintegrated but the majority of the swarm is still there. Where as the direct hit of the bomb or splash weapon targets the BULK of the swarm. Hence why it has an AC and hit points. The bomb is still a splash damage weapon type. Swarms take more damage from swarm weapons.
Under that interpretation swarmbane clasp becomes an absolute requirement for every character that can't cast area damage spells. Splash weapons become pretty useless when you apply that interpretation to them. It doesn't work that way and if it did there would be a lot more dead characters in PFS.
49 alchemist's fires = 980 gold
Don't have 49 alchemist's fires? Sucks to be you, you can't escape them.
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It doesn't say "effects that affect an area, such as splash damage from splash weapons", it says "effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons".
Whether we want to quibble about potentially arguably ambiguous wording, the intention was clearly to allow full damage on the targeted hit from splash weapons, including Bombs.
It doesn't say "effects that affect an area, such as splash damage from splash weapons", it says "effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons".
Whether we want to quibble about potentially arguably ambiguous wording, the intention was clearly to allow full damage on the targeted hit from splash weapons, including Bombs.
Regardless of what's right, "clearly" clearly isn't the word to use here. : D There is perfectly understandable confusion on the subject.
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The swarm is only immune to single target spells. Such as those that don't go against AC, because they target a single unit within the swarm... which does nothing to the multitude. A bomb is a splash damage weapon and still does damage because you are still targeting the MASS which has it's own AC and HP.
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I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand stand. It is immune to something that targets a specific bug from the swarm. Because one out of the mass is miniscule compared to thw whole. The swarm itself though still takes damage especially from splash weapons which affect the whole mass which has an AC and it goes against that AC.
That is your opinion. An opinion that, in my experience, isn't shared by very many at all. Can't say that I've been to one table where I've seen a GM rule that way.
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The swarm is not immune to target damage. It is immune to individual target spells. As in disintegrate affects 1 creature. The 1 creature gets disintegrated but the majority of the swarm is still there. Where as the direct hit of the bomb or splash weapon targets the BULK of the swarm. Hence why it has an AC and hit points. The bomb is still a splash damage weapon type. Swarms take more damage from swarm weapons.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Your line of thought would be valid it the swarm subtype didn't specify that the swarm is immune to targeted effects, not only spells.
The second part I bolded make it explicit that a splash weapon count as an effect (as it isn't a spell) for this ability.
If you decide not to threat the damage from a splash weapon as an effect it would not benefit from the 50% increase. But the example explicitly call for splash weapons.
So we have an effect that deal a kind of damage to a single target (a direct hit from a splash weapon don't affect a square, it affect a target) and another to an area.
A swarm would take only the area damage.
I don't see a RAW way to say that the direct hit damage would affect the whole swarm.
It doesn't say "effects that affect an area, such as splash damage from splash weapons", it says "effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons".
Whether we want to quibble about potentially arguably ambiguous wording, the intention was clearly to allow full damage on the targeted hit from splash weapons, including Bombs.
And what affect an area in splash weapons?
A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target.
Only the splash damage.
Regardless of what's right, "clearly" clearly isn't the word to use here. : D There is perfectly understandable confusion on the subject.
Agreed. RAI almost certainly is that the swarm will be affected by the targeted damage, like a swarm should be fully damaged by a burning torch or the energy damage part of a flaming weapon, but RAW it don't work that way.
It is not hard to understand, yes the swarm is immune to the direct damage and takes damage from the splash. That is not hard to understand at all.
So what you areare saying is ALL swarms are immune to sword damage because it attacks the single mass? Yeah that makes sense.
Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
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Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
That's exactly my point if by the way you guys are debating it, tiny creatures swarm would be immune to ALL damage, since the weapon is targeting ONE target/creature.
To say that the direct hit of a thrown splash weapon does not do damage to the creature makes no sense. You are basically saying that the KILL ZONE of a grenade is less effective than the wounding range. That makes NO sense at all.
The second part I bolded make it explicit that a splash weapon count as an effect (as it isn't a spell) for this ability.
I agree. That's clear.
So we have an effect that deal a kind of damage to a single target (a direct hit from a splash weapon don't affect a square, it affect a target) and another to an area.
This however is changing things around a lot. As by your quote above, a splash weapon is an effect. It explicitly is an effect, singular. It is not two effects.
It is an effect, it does not target a certain set of creatures, it deals area damage. Everything is enhanced by 50%.