As the title, also if you can does this affect the max images?
The number of images is a numeric variable, so it would work. On the other hand, the variable is a single d4, so you'd get 1-2 extra images. Might be useful, but you're also burning a 4th level spell slot and it would probably be even more useful to cast greater invisibility with that spell slot, unless you're up against creatures that can negate invisibility.
empower also affects the amount you add. so d4 (roll2) +2 (caster level 6) = 4 empowered = 6. Does this affect the maximum images as it affects the maximum damage done by blast spells?
Hmm, k. Does someone else want to weigh in if you can get more images with empower?
I think you are right actually since it sets a maximum total images not a maximum number to add to the d4.
Empowered mirror image = (1d4*1.5) plus 1 per 3 full caster levels, to a max of 8.
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Empowered mirror image = (1d4*1.5) plus 1 per 3 full caster levels, to a max of 8.
That +1/3 levels is also multiplied.
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I know I'm right. The developers have specifically said as much (that the static part of the variable is included in the multiplication, not that I'm right).
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I agree that you would get to multiply your entire image set, but Empower has no effect on the cap so you'd still cap at 8.
You'd be much more likely to hit the cap though.
so at:
level 3:3-7 images
level 6:4-8 images
level 9:6-8 images
level 12:7-8 images
level 15:8 images
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I know I'm right. The developers have specifically said as much (that the static part of the variable is included in the multiplication, not that I'm right).
Haha! Did you have to edit the parenthesis part after or was it pun intended?
Remember that even with the empower that it maxes at 8 images so, IMO, it's not worth the 2 extra spell levels.
I don't see why it would cap other than the spell normally cast says "maximum eight images." I think Empower can exceed that. Do you cap a maximized Fireball at 60 points of damage if the player rolled well?
Empower says "all variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half, including bonuses to those dice rolls," so I believe that is what happens. Roll 1d4 and add 1 to 4 depending on level and then multiply that sum by 1.5 to get the total images.
I still think it is better just recast a standard Mirror Image than to use a higher level slot for a few more images.
Edit: Sorry, I meant Empowered, not Maximized.
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For the record, the ruling that a numerical bonus to a die roll is also affected by Empower is an official FAQ, and nearly three year old one at that.
I still think it is better just recast a standard Mirror Image than to use a higher level slot for a few more images.
Are you assuming that two casting of Mirror Image stack? I've been told in the past that they don't.
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1) You don't roll a maximized fireball. Maximize maxes the damage.
2) There is nothing in the empower description that lets you ignore maximums set by the spell.
The only metamagic that I know of that lets you bypass maximums is intensified and then you still need to meet the caster level qualification.
I still think it is better just recast a standard Mirror Image than to use a higher level slot for a few more images.Are you assuming that two casting of Mirror Image stack? I've been told in the past that they don't.
Nope, I meant after the first spell has expired or the images or gone.
The only metamagic that I know of that lets you bypass maximums is intensified and then you still need to meet the caster level qualification.
By its wording, Intensified only affects damage dice from a spell.
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The only metamagic that I know of that lets you bypass maximums is intensified and then you still need to meet the caster level qualification.By its wording, Intensified only affects damage dice from a spell.
Correct. I was just trying to prove that you can't bypass maximums unless the feat lets you specifically.
1) You don't roll a maximized fireball. Maximize maxes the damage.
2) There is nothing in the empower description that lets you ignore maximums set by the spell.
The only metamagic that I know of that lets you bypass maximums is intensified and then you still need to meet the caster level qualification.
1. I meant Empowered, but my fingers did the walking and talking.
2. What I was asking was a Fireball normally caps at 60 points of damage. If I rolled 41 or more points on an Empowered Fireball, would I still be limited to 60 points of damage? I don't see this as raising the cap just taking half again more damage or effect, etc.
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2. What I was asking was a Fireball normally caps at 60 points of damage. If I rolled 41 or more points on an Empowered Fireball, would I still be limited to 60 points of damage? I don't see this as raising the cap just taking half again more damage or effect, etc.
Fireball doesn't cap damage; it caps dice, and Empower doesn't affect how many dice you roll.
There is no damage cap specifically stated in fireball, only a dice cap. Therefore, you would indeed get your 41 additional damage, Handelbolaf.
Feats like Intensify Spell work because they specifically say they increase the dice cap.
I think you got it Seebs.
I think the maximum for Mirror Image is indeed 8. However, and Empowered Mirror Image isn't Mirror Image... it has been modified by a secondary effect.
The Normal Mirror Image is set at (1d4+1/3CL≤8)
The Empowered version would be 1.5(1d4+1/3CL≤8)
The maximum is applied to the spell variables; it is a property of said variables, in that they have a limit. The feat then modifies said variables by multiplying them by 1.5.
Check it out;
"When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created."
This is the spell effect. The maximum is a quality of the number of images generated by the formula presented (1d4+1/3cl).
Much like how you would express Fireball "A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area." as the formula; 1d6/CL≤10d6 and thus would represent the Empower Fireball with 1.5(1d6/CL≤10d6)
The maximum is a property of the spell itself. The feat Empower Spell then takes the number generated by the spell itself and multiplies it.
The maximum number of images is neither variable (it is static) nor is it an effect of the spell.
Only variable, numeric effects are increased.
The maximum number of images is neither variable (it is static) nor is it an effect of the spell.
Only variable, numeric effects are increased.
The maximum is a property of the variable numeric effects of the spell.
The maximum is a property of the variable numeric effects of the spell.The maximum number of images is neither variable (it is static) nor is it an effect of the spell.
Only variable, numeric effects are increased.
So are you saying that the maximum is effectively increased to 12 when empowered?
So are you saying that the maximum is effectively increased to 12 when empowered?The maximum is a property of the variable numeric effects of the spell.The maximum number of images is neither variable (it is static) nor is it an effect of the spell.
Only variable, numeric effects are increased.
"effectively" yes.
The maximum remains 8. But that maximum is for the spell itself, the maximum for the variables. The variables are then increased by half, which yes 'effectively' means an Empowered Mirror Image has a maximum of 12 images.
Or you know, just research a higher level spell that has more images. One could even use the extra empowered slots as a good base line as what level the spell would need to be (in this case 3rd)
It is an order of operations issue. My stance is that the spell variables and modifiers are self contained, and then modified by whatever relevant outside factors ie Empower Spell.
Or you know, just research a higher level spell that has more images. One could even use the extra empowered slots as a good base line as what level the spell would need to be (in this case 3rd)
I like homebrew as much as the next guy.
Remy Balster has it correct .. the 8 max. is intrinsic to the original spell effect, which is then multiplied by the Empowered feat.
If you are implying empower lets you get past the origonal cap of 8 images, you are incorrect. the max of 8 images is not in any way a variable of the spell.
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There are two readings on the table.
Reading #1: The number of images created is a variable effect of the spell. It is "1d4 + L/3, to a maximum of 8".
Reading #2: The maximum is a non-variable, and the effect which is variable is a number which is not actually an effect, but rather, which is computed and then shoved through a filter to produce an effect. So the numeric variable is "1d4 + L/3", which would then be subject to effects like maximize or empower, and then the result of that subjected to a maximum of 8.I think it's easier to say "1d4+L/3, maximum of 8" is the variable numeric effect, in which case you compute this value (producing a value which is at most 8), then multiply it by 1.5.
I would concur that Reading #2 is the correct interpretation. The MAX function is a property of the variable & bonus effects of the spell, which is then multiplied by the Empower feat.
With all due respect, I disagree. I do understand and see how you can twist the language to mean it, but clearly not the case for me...
The maximum remains 8. But that maximum is for the spell itself, the maximum for the variables. The variables are then increased by half, which yes 'effectively' means an Empowered Mirror Image has a maximum of 12 images.emphasis mine
That is wrong. There is no such thing as a maximum for the variables. It's a maximum for the number of images. Let's look at empower as described in CRB:
Empower Spell[b]
You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to
deal more damage.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered
spell are increased by half, including bonuses to those
dice rolls.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are
spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses
up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.As described, Empower specifically says that it applies ony to variable numeric effects (effects that are numeric and variable). The maximum is static and not affected by empower.
Imagine the door that you would open if this would be allowed...Technically, following your logic, an empowered fireball which has 1d6 per caster level would not be capted at 10d6 anymore but would increased by 50% too...but hey...they created a specific feat for that : Intensified Spell.
Finally, if we really want to start playing with words,
Empower Spell says that : "You can increase the power of your spells, [b]causing them to deal more damage.
So, one could stipulate that empower doesn't work with mirror image since it doesn't deal damage and empower can increase spells in order to do more damge, not creat more images. Just to be clear, I don't believe that, but it's easy to start playing with words.RAI as I see it is that the maximum set in spells cannot be changed with Empower. I dont' see anything either in RAW that says that[/b][/b]...
Just to be clear, I don't think that it modifies the maximum in the way you describe. 8 is the hard maximum for the spell when the spell has not been modified. The spell itself can only generate 8 images no matter how high your caster level gets.
But that number is a variable, and thus after it is determined, gets multiplied by 1.5. (Increased by 50%). So the 'effective' maximum effect of an 'empower mirror image' would 12.
This works differently than Intensify, however. Intensify only modifies the maximum number of damage dice, by 5 levels. We can look at fireball to see how these are different.
Fireball normally: 1d6 per CL up to 10d6.
W/ Empower: (1d6 per CL up to 10d6) times 1.5
W/ Intensify: 1d6 per CL up to (10+5)d6
You can even combine them: (1d6 per CL up to (10+5)d6) times 1.5
It really boils down to order of operation. Whether you agree or disagree on any other issue here... order of operation is the core of the question at hand.
I cannot 'prove' that my interpretation of this sequence is 'the right one'... but there is also no evidence that the other order is 'the right one' either. Both are valid readings on how to apply metamagic.
I prefer to sequence steps in a certain way, one that I consider a little less messy. First find what the spell does, then modify it by the metamagic. To conclude that an Empowered Mirror Image can only generate 8 images, you have to find what the spell does, apply the metamagic, then re-filter this new modified effect back through the spell restrictions again. That seems unnecessary, so I don't.
As to balance? I've never seen any way to break the game by applying metamagic in this sequence... if anything it is just faster and less complicated. I like how clean it is, too. How it simply does what it says it does, and we don’t have to get tied down with minutia or special circumstances or weird corner cases like this one. Again, that is just personal taste.
I really think the RAI of empower spell is that a spell with a variable range of effect is simply 50% better. Regardless how you wanna write out the formula, that seems like the intent of the feat.
So, a fireball which can do between 10 and 60 damage can now do between 15 and 90 damage. Or a mirror image that can produce between 2 and 8 images can now produce between 3 and 12.
Reading the 'max 8' as simply a function of the variable just makes the whole situation a whole lot cleaner, and systematic. I guess I like that sort of order, which is why I lean towards this method of doing it. I can certainly be swayed, though, that I am wrong on this issue. As I said, I cannot prove this is 'the right way'. If someone can show the RAW how-to on sequencing this sort of thing, I'll certainly pay attention.
the max of 8 is not a variable it never changes its the same at lvl 1 and at levl 20. there is no variable element to it at all.
the max of 8 is not a variable it never changes its the same at lvl 1 and at levl 20. there is no variable element to it at all.
We agree.
What I am saying is that the maximum is a property of the variable. Not that it is in and of itself a variable. But that it is a part of the variable.
The variable being the number of images. The maximum of the variable number of images is simply a part of the variable.
A variable expressed as 1d4 + 1 per 3 CL up to 8. That the whole variable includes this maximum, as the maximum is a property of said variable.
The variable here is the number of images. The spell explains perfectly well how do determine this variable...so we simply take that result, and multiply it by 1.5 for an empowered version.
No. The cap is a static number that is that number regardless of your caster level and Empower only effects variable numeric effects. The Cap does not vary period.
No. The cap is a static number that is that number regardless of your caster level and Empower only effects variable numeric effects. The Cap does not vary period.
What is the variable effect?
If the variable effect is the number of images... then the cap is simply a part of the variable.
the max of 8 is not a variable it never changes its the same at lvl 1 and at levl 20. there is no variable element to it at all.
I agree.