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So in the second part of my exploration of giving martial characters nice things, I want to look at some actual Ideas I have. My hope is to create a set of rules that can be plugged into the existing game to help expand options for martial characters without messing with too much of the actual math or structure of the game.
One of the things that came up the most in Part One of this series of threads was the ammount of investment required for the 'cool stuff' martial characters can do. Basically they have class abilities, and feats, and while certainly these are more abundant in pathfinder then they were in 3.5, they are still very limited, and difficult to change. Unlike spells these are long term choices, that need to be built towards. Often the prerequisites of these options limit other choices.
The other issue I have seen is the limitations on martial character's actions. We picture "Swashbucklers who kiss the girl, swing across the ballroom on a rope, then drop a chandelier behind them on the hapless guards." But the actual action economy of this game really limits these things.
Martial characters have as their primary resources a high attack bonus and skills. These are probably the least loved areas of the game. An attack is an attack, a skill check is a skill check. It either succeeds or it doesnt. If my target or DC is 15, and I get a 35, its the same as if I got a 15 unless I roll a critical which is based on the dice and not my abilities (for the most part) and completely unimportant to skills.
So why not change that? If I beat the heck out of my dc, why shouldnt that allow some additional options?
So my suggestion is that if you exceed a dc or an AC on a skill check or attack roll by a certain amount, lets say 5 for now, you would be able to get some kind of additional effect. These would come in several forms:
1. Reduce the time it takes to complete this action by one step, minimum a swift action, and can be done more then once if you beat the target by an additional 5. So the incredibly diplomatic swashbuckler by rolling very high can charm the maiden with a glance, the fighter can quickly stab the lowly goblin, and then charge the big bad guy and attack him.
The place where this would get tricky is full attacks. I think it would require some playtesting, but I dont know if it would be a huge issue to allow full attacks to be reduced. Possibly limiting them to one step to a standard action. It would certainly change the game, but I am not yet certain if it would change it for the worse. If I do include full attacks, the first attack of the full attack action would be the one that determined the amount you could decrease the time, and you would still be limited to a single full attack action per turn.
This option would both be active, and reactive. Meaning you can after the result of an attack or skill is executed reduce the action that attack took, OR you can actively choose to raise the dc or AC of your target by a certain amount
2. Each skill would get a set of 'skill talents' that a player could choose from for each X ranks he put into that skill (working starting value is every 3 ranks). For every 5 points you exceed your target dc by, you can activate one or more of these talents instead of reducing the duration, or some cobination there of.
3. Tactical Confidence(Working name) a set of abilities characters can choose from as they gain base attack bonus (again plan is every 3 BAB). When a character exceeds an attack roll by a certain amount, he gains confidence/experience against the target and in the battle and is able to gain an advantage. These could be things like bonuses against certain kinds of attacks, to bonuses to certain combat maneuvers, or a buff you can pass to your party as you lead them in battle. The idea here is put the skill and experience of the veteran fighter or barbarian to work in a way that is represented by more then just a high to hit bonus.
And lastly, I want to make both combat maneuvers and weapon proficiencies matter a bit more.
So I would recommend the change that if you are using an a manufactured weapon with which you are proficient to make a combat maneuver it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
In addition, so long as you are executing the combat maneuver with a manufactured weapon with which you are proficient, you add 1.5x your base attack bonus to combat maneuvers instead of just your bab. The idea here is to help combat maneuver bonuses scale better at high levels, and again to offer an advantage for that martial experience that is normally only represented in a high to hit, without requiring additional investment on the part of martial characters. This one would also require some playtesting to get the numbers right.
I am working now on some examples of skill talents and tactical confidences. I will post them when they are ready.
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A few examples of Skill talents and Tactical Confidences I've thought of so far:
Skill talents
Acrobatic Attack:
Base skill: Acrobatics
You are skilled at using the environment to your advantage, whether its swinging on a rope, kicking off a wall, or sliding on the smooth tile surface, when you use you agility and nimble moves, you gain and edge in combat.
Benefit: You may activate this skill talent when succeeding at an acrobatics check to move through someones space or threatened square. You count as flanking the enemy whose threatened space you moved through, regardless of other characters that threatened that enemy.
Diplomatic Intercession
Base skill:Diplomacy
Your skill at negotiations and diplomacy allows you to cause even the most heated of enemies to hesistate in combat.
Benefit: You may activate this skill when attempting to change the attitude of an npc towards you. That npc may not attack you in the first round of the next combat the npc is involved in with you. This effect lasts for a maximum of 24 hours, and is negated if engage in hostile action against the npc.
Tactical Confidences
Rousing Leader
Your last blow was so effortless and effecitve it momentarily invigors your allies.
Benefit: When you activate this ability, all allies that can see and hear you gain a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage until the end of your next turn.
Monster Specialist
You know how to tell what a creatures defenses are like.
Benefit: When you activate this ability, you can identify any type of damage reduction a creature has and the means by which it is bypassed (if any).
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a few more skill talents:
Ear to the Ground
Base Skill Diplamcy
You know who to talk to even when you arent aware of what to ask. Your contacts come to you with information even when you are looking for something else.
Benefit: You may activate this ability when attempting a diplomacy check to gather information. In the process of your check you receive one peice of important information (DM's choice) that you were not explicately looking for in addition to the subject you were trying to gather information on.
Idendentify Weaknesses
Base skill: Any knowledge
You know where and how to hit an enemy. After sizing them up, your knowledge of various creatures gives you an advantage in combat.
Benefit: You may activate this ability after succefully making a knowledge check to identify a monster and its powers/abilities. Doing so grants you a +1 competance bonus on attack and damage rolls against that target for a number of minutes equal to the number of ranks you have in the relavent knowledge skill.
Lucky Match
Base Skill: Disguise
You are so good at disguising yourself that you often include details that you werent conciously thinking of. A mole, a wart, a blemish, the details you add often fool even the most familiar of observers.
Benefit: You may activate this ability when making a disguise check to disguise yourself as a specific person. Reduce by half any bonuses an observer might get on their perception check to see through the disguise due to familiarity with the target.
Splint
Base Skill: Heal
You are able to create a brace, sling, wrap, or splint to aleviate more serious injuries when you apply first aid.
Benefit: You may activate this ability when making a heal check to treat deadly wounds. In addition to the hit points recovered you may temporarily aleviate 1 point of ability damage that character has suffered. This effect lasts for 1 hour per rank in the heal skill you have.
Incidentally, the Mythic rules really help out with a lot of these things. I know that isn't what you're aiming for here, necessarily, and that casters get abilities from the rule system too. Some of the ideas that myself and my players have been playing with from the Mythic rules have made martial characters a LOT more fun, while casters have mostly just gotten more powerful while still doing basically the same things.
Mythic is not precisely what i am going for here, even mythic tiers are very limited and very specialized. The idea here is to give martial characters interesting and versatile options without investing limited character choices like feats and class abilities. That and they are not meant to represent characters above and beyond 'normal'. The point is to make experienced martial characters more dynamic, and give them more options. That and to offer more then a yes no option for success or failure in the martial space.
Dot for interest.
Dot
I like the idea of reducing an attack to a swift action. Depending on the character, that is really nice. Less so for Inquisitors or other Swift Action heavy characters but those folks really have tons of perks on their side and this helps the underdog(the Fighter) a lot.
Just so I'm understanding this.
Fighter is next to a Goblin. He stabs the Goblin as a standard action but got high enough to reduce it to a swift. If he didn't kill it he could stab again and if he did, he can still charge the BBEG with the rest of his turn. Lets say he didn't kill the goblin. He uses his standard action to finish it off and still has his movement to advance on the BBEG. Definitely feels more mobile.
The CMB solution is a bit scarier to tackle.
Hey kid! Ima computer!
Stop all the downloadin.
Help computer.
Mythic is not precisely what i am going for here, even mythic tiers are very limited and very specialized. The idea here is to give martial characters interesting and versatile options without investing limited character choices like feats and class abilities. That and they are not meant to represent characters above and beyond 'normal'. The point is to make experienced martial characters more dynamic, and give them more options. That and to offer more then a yes no option for success or failure in the martial space.
Sure, and Mythic abilities make experienced martial characters more dynamic, and give them more options. I'm not talking about the Mythic rules just as a "Well,you should try this first" thing, but rather as a ruleset that's done what you're proposing and may serve as some indication of how Paizo is looking at how martial characters would be acting in a combat situation by extrapolating the results of Mythic abilities and effects.
Mythic also gives you a foundation for what's "above and beyond," according to the official rules system, and can serve as a reference for balancing the abilities that you and the community comes up with in this thread. If it's stronger than a Mythic ability, why? If it's weaker, why?
may serve as some indication of how Paizo is looking at how martial characters would be acting
Well that's certainly a can of worms.
@scavion, you are correct in your interpretation of how the action reduction should work. And I agree that CMB will be harder to deal with but given the emphasis that was placed on it as a change in pathfinder we really need to find a way to make it keep working past 8th level.
@Puna'chong, thats a decent point. While i didnt intend to take much of a look at mythic, it might make for a descent yardstick. I am just not sure, mythic abilities are generally supposed to be dramatic and extraordinary, i want all the skill talents and tactics to be interesting and useful but not game changes the way many mythic abilities are.
@Neurophage, that isnt completely by accident. I really like the 3.5 skill tricks. And it was part of my inspiration for the idea. I dont want to copy any of them explicately since they arent open content, but they are certainly in my mind.
Also if anyone would like to suggest ideas for skill talents or tactical confidences I'd love to hear them. There are lots of skills and combat styles to cover.
may serve as some indication of how Paizo is looking at how martial characters would be actingWell that's certainly a can of worms.
Ehh, it was 2 AM, I had some beers, and after a long night of conquering Royal Scythia with my elephant army I was pretty much just going stream-of-consciousness.
I suppose a more coherent version of what I was trying to say there was that the Mythic rules give the martial characters a lot more depth, and although the casters get some cool stuff they really aren't doing anything too different from their normal fare of casting spells and winning after they get a tier. The more martial-oriented paths get some abilities that, with some adaptation, wouldn't be too far-fetched for a normal character to do. Clean Blade in the Champion path is a good example of this, I think, and falls under what Kolokotroni seems to be trying to do here: Critical hit lets you make a ranged touch attack to flick the blood off your blade at an enemy to demoralize/blind/sicken them.
That isn't anything necessarily superheroic or crazy (though, at the same time, wizards are flying around and summoning tentacles out of the ground, so why not?), and although it may not be 100% what we're looking for here it's a good example of something extra that Paizo themselves thought would be cool for a martial character to have or do.
As far as the idea for "Tactical Confidence" is concerned, it could be expanded to not just morale boosts or static buffs but debuffs as well to opponents, or even conditions. Conditions are a bit of an underused aspect of the game that really only a) people with poisons or b) people with spells really get to apply. Why wouldn't the fighter be able to make someone bleed?! Why not nauseate an opponent as part of an attack, not just as a Dirty Trick in place of an attack?
There's a videogame, Guild Wars, where a lot of the combat is actually focused on conditions, applying conditions, and combining conditions on enemies. You'd hit a guy with an attack that simply applied a bleed effect, then hit them with a "deep wound" effect that made them heal less and reduced their max hp, then you'd cripple them, then knock them over, etc. etc. etc. Maybe this more visceral aspect is what's missing from the martial classes? Wizards have sometimes half-page descriptions of what their spell is doing, while a barbarian has "Greataxe: 1d12 + X. Go nuts." While feats do some of this, I like the idea that exceeding an opponent's AC would net you extra effects of your choice.
Skill talents are also a good idea, though in some ways it feels like there shouldn't necessarily be single items that you choose but rather "packs" of skill talents. So you'd have a "Master Thief" set, or a "Party Face" set, whatever. That way you can choose a suite of abilities that complement each other and play into an archetype that otherwise is kind of hard to pull off in Pathfinder until you get to much higher levels. And, let's face it: most campaigns end before characters get to level 13 if you're starting from level 1. Most of the time players don't get to use half of the awe-inspiring abilities their classes get because of scheduling, lack of interest, people moving, etc.
As far as the idea for "Tactical Confidence" is concerned, it could be expanded to not just morale boosts or static buffs but debuffs as well to opponents, or even conditions. Conditions are a bit of an underused aspect of the game that really only a) people with poisons or b) people with spells really get to apply. Why wouldn't the fighter be able to make someone bleed?! Why not nauseate an opponent as part of an attack, not just as a Dirty Trick in place of an attack?
Debuffs are definately within the scope of a tactical confidence, I just dont want to go overboard. I want them to make sense for a martial character and for them to be relatively minor benefits that are not complete game changers.
There's a videogame, Guild Wars, where a lot of the combat is actually focused on conditions, applying conditions, and combining conditions on enemies. You'd hit a guy with an attack that simply applied a bleed effect, then hit them with a "deep wound" effect that made them heal less and reduced their max hp, then you'd cripple them, then knock them over, etc. etc. etc. Maybe this more visceral aspect is what's missing from the martial classes? Wizards have sometimes half-page descriptions of what their spell is doing, while a barbarian has "Greataxe: 1d12 + X. Go nuts." While feats do some of this, I like the idea that exceeding an opponent's AC would net you extra effects of your choice.
Something like that would need alot of playtesting and re-work, the idea here is for it to be a relatively simple plug and play system not to create a whole new game.
Skill talents are also a good idea, though in some ways it feels like there shouldn't necessarily be single items that you choose but rather "packs" of skill talents. So you'd have a "Master Thief" set, or a "Party Face" set, whatever. That way you can choose a suite of abilities that complement each other and play into an archetype that otherwise is kind of hard to pull off in Pathfinder until you get to much higher levels. And, let's face it: most campaigns end before characters get to level 13 if you're starting from level 1. Most of the time players don't get to use half of the awe-inspiring abilities their classes get because of scheduling, lack of interest, people moving, etc.
I would be heavily opposed to the idea of 'packs' of skill talents. The whole point here is to give flexibility to skills. If you want to be a master thief, you put ranks in and take talents for stealth, disable device, etc. If you want to be the party face you put ranks in diplomacy, bluff etc and take skill talents for those skills. I explicately dont want to go the route of archetypes that force you to take things together. Keep in mind that in order to get skill talents you must take ranks in those skills. If they came in packs they would not only dictate which skill talents you take, but also dictate where you are putting your skill ranks. That is definately not something I want to do here.
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Kolo, I know you aren't a fan and I hate to tout 4th edition, but they do have a flurry of things available for adaptation. Specifically the Skill Powers from PHB 3, as well as the utility powers available to martial classes.
Ideas:
Base skill: Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Engineering, Nature, or the Planes)
Your intense study gives you an understanding of the natural layouts of the world.
Benefit: You may make a Knowledge check instead of a Stealth check when attempting to hide within certain environments. The knowledge check depends on your location:
Dungeoneering - underground locations
Engineering - urban locations (i.e. towns or cities)
Nature - any terrain defined as 'wilderness'
Planes - (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral
Plane, or the Ethereal Plane
Studying the Past
Base skill: Knowledge (History)
Poring through texts of ancient deeds has given you a unique insight into the world today.
Benefit: Whenever you are asked to make an Intelligence check you may substitute it with a Knowledge (History) check instead.
Doomed to Repeat
Base skill: Knowledge (History)
Military texts of past battles have given you insight to the most obvious of facts: beings rarely learn from past mistakes.
Benefit: You may activate this ability after successfully attacking an enemy for the first time in an encounter. As a free action, make a Knowledge (History) check equal to 10 + CR of the enemy. If you succeed gain a +2 competence bonus on attack and damage rolls against that enemy until the end of your next turn.
Learning from the Past
Base skill: Any knowledge
Your extensive knowledge allows you to learn from past mistakes.
Benefit: You may activate this ability after being subjected to a supernatural or extraordinary ability of an enemy. As a free action, make an appropriate Knowledge check equal to 10 + CR of the enemy. You learn the duration, approximate cool-down (the range of rounds if it is variable), and uses per day of the ability that targeted you, as well as a +2 competence bonus to AC and Saves against the next time you are subject to that ability this encounter.
As you can see, I like the idea of using Knowledge (any) against foes.
Considering that my issue with martials tends to pop up at higher levels, I have designed some higher level feats for them. Feel free to use them however you wish. The idea is that they enhance options and maneuverability, rather than raw damage power, of physical combatants or skill monkeys.
Skill Feats:
Master Acrobat:
Prerequisites: Skill Focus(Acrobatics), Acrobatics 11 ranks.
Benefit: When using acrobatics to tumble or balance, move up to your base speed without penalty. Further, you may tumble to avoid threatened spaces in medium armor.
Legendary Acrobat:
Prerequisites, Master Acrobat, Acrobatics 15 ranks.
Benefit: When using acrobatics to tumble or balance, you may make charge or run actions without penalty. Further, you may tumble to avoid threatened spaces in heavy armor.
Leap of the Grasshopper:
Prerequisites: Skill Focus(Acrobatics), Acrobatics 11 ranks.
Benefit: When using acrobatics to jump, treat all high jumps as up to ½ skill total in height, limited by your base speed as a total. Further, on horizontal jumps, you can change direction and instead make multiple successive leaps, so long as there is a horizontal surface to provide space for the jumps, and the total distance covered does not exceed the horizontal check result, limited by double base movement speed as a move action, or quadruple base land speed as a full round action.
Leap of the Flea:
Prerequisites: Leap of the Grasshopper, Acrobatics 15 ranks.
Benefit: When using acrobatics to jump, treat all high jumps as up to the check result in height, limited to double base speed as a total. Further, on vertical jumps, you can change direction and instead make multiple successive leaps, so long as there is a surface to provide space for the jumps, and the total distance covered does not exceed the base land speed as a move action, or twice the base land speed as a full round action. In this way it is possible to ‘wall jump’ in a single round. If the movement is not ended upon a surface where the leaper can support himself, he falls as per the normal rules.
Wall Crawler:
Prerequisites: Skill Focus(Climb), Climb 11 ranks
Benefit: Gain an extraordinary climb speed equal to base movement rate, but by the end of the turn, completing movement on a surface where you cannot support yourself results in falling as usual.
Vertical Horizon:
Prerequisites: Wall Crawler, Climb 15 ranks
Benefit: Any surface you climb counts as your new center of gravity for as long as you tread upon it. This does not allow you to float to any closest surface, but anchors you in while at least one point of bodily contact remains (this does not include tethers and the like). This does not prevent other consequences of gravity, such as items falling off, blood rushing to the head, nor prevent falling damage if separated from the surface.
Windrunner:
Prerequisites: Run, Character level 11th
Benefit: Once per hour, you may sprint for up to 10 times base speed, if there is no difficult terrain. The movement must be in a straight line.
Lightning Dash:
Prerequisites: Windrunner, Character level 15th
Benefit: Sprint once per minute, ignoring difficult terrain including magical impediments (but not damaging terrain) so long as the beginning and end of the path is not difficult terrain.
Swan Dive:
Prerequisites: Skill Focus(Swim), Swim 11 ranks
Benefit: Ignore falling damage into water. Further, swim at half base movement speed.
Triton’s Call:
Prerequisites: Swan Dive, Swim 15 ranks
Benefit: Hold breath 1 minute per point of constitution score underwater, and swim at base land speed. Further, ignore all penalties for fighting in watery terrain, including half damage from bludgeoning and slashing weapons.
Merchant Prince:
Prerequisites: Skill Focus (Appraise), Appraise: 11 ranks
Benefit: Buy and sell items at a base of 75% each, and reroll twice for any random mark-up or taxation checks if utilized, taking lowest. This can be further altered in a stratified appraise skill usage.
Hand of Midas:
Prerequisites: Merchant Prince, Appraise: 15 ranks
Benefit: By touching an item, you can automatically determine if it is damaged, cursed, intelligent, stolen, fraudulent, or an artifact in nature. Any attempt to convince you otherwise, including magical disguise or enchantment, simply fails.
Glider:
Prerequisites: Skill Focus(Fly), Fly 11 ranks
Benefit: By outstretching any form of large garment, you may glide as per the spell, taking 20 feet of horizontal movement for 5 feet of descent. Further, you treat all falls as half distance. This does not apply if denied dex to AC.
Skyrender:
Prerequisites: Glider, Fly 15 ranks
Benefit: While gliding with the glider feat, you may catch a stream of air that carries you aloft for longer, moving for up to 100 feet horizontally per 5 feet vertically descending, provided that no other actions are taken that round. Further, all falls are treated as minimum damage so long as a large garment can be outstretched after being halved. This does not apply if denied dex to AC.
Saddle Savant:
Prerequisites: Skill Focus: Ride, Ride 11 ranks
Benefit: Transfer all modes and speeds of movement you currently possess (if better), magical or otherwise, to your mount so long as you are atop it. Bonding with a mount in this way takes 10 minutes of practice. Being dismounted immediately removes the benefit, necessitating another 10 minutes to reactivate.
Rooted Rider:
Prerequisites: Saddle Savant, Ride 15 ranks
Benefit: Negate 1 saving throw effect per round targeting your mount using ½ ride check as the bonus against the saving throw DC. Further, confer any immunities, resistances, and adaptations you possess to your mount so long as you are atop it, such as damage reduction, energy resistance, water breathing or similar terrain barriers, etc. Bonding with a mount in this way takes 10 minutes of practice. Being dismounted immediately removes the benefit, necessitating another 10 minutes to reactivate.
Combat Feats
Trample:
Prerequisites: Bull Rush Critical, base attack (or monk level) +11
Benefit: When making a charge action, you can overrun any creature that is at up to one size larger than you between where you begin and end your movement. The creatures take 1d6 points of damage, plus 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier. Targets of the trample can make attacks of opportunity at a –4 penalty. If a target forgoes the attack of opportunity, it can make a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is 10 + 1/2 level + Strength modifier. You can only deal trampling damage to a creature once per round.
Grab:
Prerequisites: Greater Grapple, base attack (or monk level) +11
Benefit: You may now make a grapple check as part of a successful attack with a natural weapon, unarmed strike, weapon with the grappling ability, or so long as you have one free hand.
Trip:
Prerequisites: Tripping Critical, base attack (or monk level) +11
Benefit: You may now make a trip attempt as part of a successful melee attack.
Powerful Build:
Prerequisites: Base attack +11
Benefit: Count as 1 size larger for all beneficial effects related to combat maneuvers, carrying capacity, and qualifying for feats requiring you to be of a certain size.
Immense Stature:
Prerequisites: Base attack +15, Powerful Build
Benefit: Count as 2 sizes larger for all beneficial effects related to combat maneuvers, carrying capacity, and qualifying for feats requiring you to be of a certain size.
Narrow Frame:
Prerequisites: Small or larger size category, Character level 11th
Benefit: Count as 1 size smaller for determining tight quarters, stealth bonuses, and feats requiring you to be of a certain size.
Beanpole:
Prerequisites: Narrow Frame, Character level 15th
Benefit: Count as 2 sizes smaller for determining tight quarters, stealth bonuses, and feats requiring you to be of a certain size.
Frightful Presence:
Prerequisites: Shatter Defenses, Intimidate 11 ranks
Benefit: You have an aura of intimidation that spreads out in a 30ft radius. Enemies must make a will save DC 10+1/2lvl+charisma modifier or be frightened for 1 minute.
Terrifying Presence:
Prerequisites: Frightful Presence, Intimidate 15 ranks
Benefit: Your aura of intimidation spreads out in a 60 ft radius. Enemies must make a will save DC 10+1/2lvl+charisma modifier or be panicked for 1 minute.
Trying to improve the quality of life for martial classes has been attempted before but never really went anywhere. Hopefully this time will be more successful. This is a failed past project from this forum, a wiki to store ideas people came up with to improve martial classes. If anyone is interested and has posted a contribution to this thread, I will give you editing permissions if you send me a PM.
My personal work focuses on giving martial characters more control over the narrative. Some spells, especially divination and teleportation spells, give spellcasters a lot of control over how the story progresses. In my opinion, martials fair far better in combat than outside it. I've come up with narrative abilities that help make up the out of combat gap, found here.
To foster actual discussion instead of people skipping over the ideas of others and just sharing their own, I will comment on and critique the ideas of anyone who does the same to mine.
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This is a great thread.
Pandora had a great post on the other thread where he mentioned things like:
* Paladins should be able to convince even the morally bankrupt to fight for mutual survival.
* Rangers should have a natural rapport with animals.
..etc..
I feel like there must've been a breakdown between the editions of D&D along the way to Pathfinder.
Once upon a time, if you had a level 12 paladin, a shining beacon of hope, step into the Greyhawk Thieves' Guild and spend a minute trying to rally a few dozen thieves, cutpurses and beggars to join in the mutual defense of the Free City... as a GM, you asked them to make a Charisma check, factored in that they were a paladin, the city was in danger, and given the paladin's Charisma score, either had a spectacular moment of success, or a spectacular moment of failure. At the games we played, more often than not, it was a moment of spectacular success. The failures are still discussed over beer to this day.
Somewhere along the way, folks stopped making ability checks to get unique and creative things done that further the narrative.
From time to time, someone in our games remembers these days and attempts something "beyond the rules" to further the narrative, and we fall back to what we did in the days of early editions, and make a d20 roll to see what happens - rules be damned. I don't think there's anything in the Core rulebook that encourages this fallback...?
The thing is - with each successive rule that gives options about how you can use your Charisma or the Diplomacy skill - you may actually put that ability and its related skills into a tinier and tinier box.
Once upon a time, we kind of played that anyone could use Bluff to taunt a monster into fighting them, where the GM would use their discretion to decide if it worked or not. Now we have things like Antagonize where it's been codified into a rule. At some games when someone tries to bluff an opponent into targeting them, it may often turn into - "well, you can't do that without Antagonize", which frankly limits the game and makes it less interesting.
I'm not sure the answer is more rules. I think we could use a book that encourages more creative play with the system we have in place. The paladin trying to stir the morally corrupt to action? I'd call that a DC35 check, but factor in things that the person is a paladin, and slap a +10 on their check, and then look at what deeds they've done - perhaps they saved one of the rogue's uncles in town, and slap another +5 to +10 on that check, etc etc. A book with guidelines could literally spend pages and page giving hypothetical examples and how to run them within the current rules. Characters attempting creative feats "without magical aid" may end up with better circumstance bonuses because they aren't simply relying on the crutch of magic.
To me, this is part of Pathfinder's appeal - it doesn't have "too many rules" (yet) and we're still free to take these open interpretations of how things can be done. If it adds too many rules, it becomes too unwieldy and we might actually see a shift to games like 13th Age.
Wakedown, I agree with you in theory. The reason that abilities are often necessary is because they function as a guarantee. However, you'll see that many of mine are very open ended and many have the "subject to GM discretion" line in them. I think that is the ideal compromise.
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Wakedown, I agree with you in theory. The reason that abilities are often necessary is because they function as a guarantee. However, you'll see that many of mine are very open ended and many have the "subject to GM discretion" line in them. I think that is the ideal compromise.
Definitely. For every GM who lets you go beyond what the rules let you, theres probably 5 who don't.
Then you get to the mess that is organized play. Abilities based on GM discretion need a hard definition and anything beyond the rules vanishes.
A Book about Creative Play would be a very odd thing to make. I'd probably just put a bunch of vague explanations on what each skill might be allowed to do. But even then Skills only get you so far.
A Big point of contention is that high level play doesn't showcase anything really about high level martials. Boss fights are close to never about the BBEG doing loads of physical damage, and if they are, they're a cakewalk. They're world altering big bads with crazy supernatural abilities who are ripping at the very fabric of the universe to accomplish their goals.
The Heroic Martial himself is a clunky battleship who spends the entirety of his career trying to waddle up next to his enemies so he can hurt them effectively through hit point damage(which isn't that effective anyways). He forever plays second fiddle to the guy who solves all their non-combat problems and those too by altering the universe.
And yes, I understand that it's a group game and we're all just doing our part. But even from a group game view point Pathfinder is flawed since Casters can completely trivialize the Martial's existence. And so the Caster needs not the Martial but the Martial needs the Caster.
I just really want to see the last point changed.
-surges!!! basically, extraordinary abilities that function like spells, but don't stop working in an anti-magic feild, can't be dispelled, all the things you'd expect from somebody who is supposed to be superhuman without being magical. ex.: Ursine strength: gain a +4 to strength and a plus an additional +2 at your fourth "surger" level and every 4 levels there after for a +14 to strength at level 20. partially inspired by ToB
Speaking to your last point, Dreamscarred Press is doing an adaptation of 3.5's Book of the 9 Swords.
Speaking to your last point, Dreamscarred Press is doing an adaptation of 3.5's Book of the 9 Swords.-surges!!! basically, extraordinary abilities that function like spells, but don't stop working in an anti-magic feild, can't be dispelled, all the things you'd expect from somebody who is supposed to be superhuman without being magical. ex.: Ursine strength: gain a +4 to strength and a plus an additional +2 at your fourth "surger" level and every 4 levels there after for a +14 to strength at level 20. partially inspired by ToB
F*CKING A!!!!
so there might not be too much work..but...still. how does the rest sound?
Well, I've personally theory-crafted a bunch of feats into alt versions, specifically Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, and saves, CMB/CMD alternate set-ups. I haven't implimented them in any games I run but it is pretty common to allow Weapon Finesse and/or Agile Maneuvers to be free feats.
I don't see how adding new feats, class perks, or ways to spend skill points solves the main problems: that martial classes are forced into inflexible builds to accomplish anything, and that martial classes are arbitrarily limited to non-fantastic abilities.
Well first of all the idea behind skill talents and tactical confidences is to offer martial characters additional options WITHOUT expending existing character resources (feats/class abilities and skill points). You dont have to take a feat or spend a skill point to do this. IF you spend skill points in a skill (which you would normally do) you ALSO can choose from skill talents related to that skill. As you gain levels in martial classes you gain tactical confidences of your choice. Much the way spell casters get an ever expanding list of spells to choose from that dont drain feats or class features, these abilities will do the same.
And while I am in agreement of the issue about being limited to non-fantastic. I pretty much think book of nine swords and now paths of war handle that rather well. If you want to make your martial characters more fantastic, you can just use those classes in place of the standard ones. But there are those that dont want to do that, hence this idea.
I'm not sure the answer is more rules. I think we could use a book that encourages more creative play with the system we have in place. The paladin trying to stir the morally corrupt to action? I'd call that a DC35 check, but factor in things that the person is a paladin, and slap a +10 on their check, and then look at what deeds they've done - perhaps they saved one of the rogue's uncles in town, and slap another +5 to +10 on that check, etc etc. A book with guidelines could literally spend pages and page giving hypothetical examples and how to run them within the current rules. Characters attempting creative feats "without magical aid" may end up with better circumstance bonuses because they aren't simply relying on the crutch of magic.
To me, this is part of Pathfinder's appeal - it doesn't have "too many rules" (yet) and we're still free to take these open interpretations of how things can be done. If it adds too many rules, it becomes too unwieldy and we might actually see a shift to games like 13th Age.
GMS offering flexibility within the existing ruleset requires no further action, just a talented, creative and fair gm. Many gms though, dont think so quickly on their feat, arent as creative or arrive at conclusions as easily. A good gm can fix literally any problem. If you want to help average or even poor gms, the only way I know of to do it is through rules. You can offer advice, but advice is just that, its a vague bit of knowledge that may or may not be useable by a given person. Anyone can use new rules. And if they are good, they can add to a groups experience.
I completely understand the desire not to add new rules to the game. And if thats your desire, more power to you. But the purpose of this thread is to work on a set of rules that moves martial and mundane aspects out of the range of binary success and failure and makes them more interesting to play at mid and high levels without having them need to expend feats or class abilities to get those options.
One important thing to keep in mind about combat action economy is that combat rules are made to represent actions in a shared time space where everyone in actuality is acting at the same time. Those hapless guards you mention in the OP either fail to perceive you or are holding actions to put it in Pathfinder terms.
My resolution is the addition of more high level high benefit feats for martials (Prerequisites invariably bab 11+.
Which makes them accessible to some others).
There's stuff like extra 5 ft steps between cleave attacks. Full attack as standard action. Swift action attacks. Spell resistance. Regeneration. Damage reduction. Spell "tolerance" (think: ignore negative effect of hostile magic for X number of rounds. Like stubbornly delaying the effects of being dominated.)
These feats are their own mini capstone to mark the end of important feat lines and combinations. In this way there's less risk of a fighter hitting level 10 and realise that he's out of feats to pick on any chain and it's time for him to start from scratch on the next. Yay for picking Weapon focus (longbow) at level 13. I'll post some of these feats I'd you want. But it'll be a lengthy post. Be warned.
I really like these ideas but I wonder... Wouldn't they even further the problem over over over-specialisation? With the addition of these confidence bonuses for super exceeding checks, wouldn't people be even more incentivized to put all their resources into pumping one or two facets of their character?
Warning, Wall of text:
Ill leave out the mechanically annoying ones that need ironing:
Assault.*
Prerequisites: Bab +15. Dash attack. Spring attack. Mobility. Dodge.
You can as a full-round action move up to your movement speed and make a full attack. You can make each attack before, after or at any point during your movement. You are subject to attacks of opportunity as normal, you cannot target a foe you attempt to tumble past with an attack as part of this action. You are fatigued for one round after using this ability and take a -2 penalty to AC until the start of your next round. You cannot use this ability while fatigued or exhausted.
You can use this ability up to once per minute (thus you must wait 10 rounds after Assaulting before Assaulting again).
Special: You can use a hero point to skip the waiting time, but you must still abide the rule that you cannot assault if you are fatigued or exhausted.
Note: If you Assault while Raging, the Rage is paused for one round while you recover, this does not „break“ the Rage, but it counts against the Rage duration.
Concept:
Crunch:
Dash attack.*
Proper awareness is all it takes to make the most of your attack opportunities.
Prerequisites: Spring attack. Bab+7.
When you use a move action to move, you can as a swift action make one attack at a -5 penalty against a foe within melee reach at any point during the move, this counts as an iterative attack (In other words, if you somehow make a full attack action in the same round, you do not get to make the attack made at a -5 modifier.) You cant tumble past a foe you use a Dash attack on.
Concept:
Crunch:
Regeneration.
Your wounds close supernaturally fast and lost flesh seems to grow back with rarely any blemish. Only the most grievous wounds truly leave their mark on you.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +14. Toughness. Diehard.
You gain Regeneration 2, as the monster ability, choose either Cold, Electricity or Fire, the chosen element negates your regeneration for a round. Like the monster ability you can re-attach lost limbs and gain hitpoints on a roundly basis, however this form of regeneration is not powerful enough to sustain your life should you perish. If you are brought below your death threshold you die normally regardless of your regeneration ability. Instant death effects and other effects that cause you to die regardless of your hitpoints remaining also affect you normally. This is a supernatural effect.
Concept:
Crunch:
Spell resistance.
Through a combination of training, toughness and unbreakable resolve you have gained resistance to magic.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +13. Disruptive. Iron will. Toughness.
You gain spell resistance 4 + your character level. You can cast spells on yourself without penalty but others, even allies, must succeed on spell penetration tests to cast spells on you lest you spend a swift action to suppress the spell resistance for one round.
Special: If you possess a suit of spell resistant armor or magic item reduce the spell resistance granted by that sources by 13, if the remaining number is positive add it to your own spell resistance as a bonus.
-Improved spell resistance.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +15. Spell resistance (the feat above).
Your spell resistance increases to 7 + your character level. If you possess Mythic power or Hero points, you can spend one use of either to improve the resistance. If you spend Mythic power your spell resistance increases by +4. If you spend a hero point your spell resistance increases by +8. Activating this ability is an immediate action and the bonus lasts only for one round or until discharged, whichever comes first.
Concept:
Crunch:
When you get the improved version things get even more interesting, at this point you got a lovely 35% chance to laught off any spell cast on you by a caster of equal level, need I say more? The hero point/mythic power thing is just to let you fit the Hero/Antihero role even better.
Master of cleaving.*
Culling the horde is an afterthought to you.
Prerequisites: Great cleave. Base attack bonus +12.
Once per round when you perform a full-attack action you may replace one attack except the first with a cleave attack. Other than being part of a Full-attack this functions for all purposes exactly as per the normal rules for cleave attacks and benefits from all the relevant feats.
Superior cleave.
You leave behind utter carnage as you churn through enemy lines.
Prerequisites: Great cleave. Base attack bonus +10.
Whenever you successfully hit a foe with a cleave attack you may, as a free action, move 5ft. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity. After you move as part of using this feat any foe you now threaten becomes an eligible target to continue your cleave attacks, so long as he was adjacent to the last target of your cleave. You can use this feat up to twice in one round so long as you do not exceed your movement speed (for example, a Dwarf fighter with movement speed 20 could move 10 feet and make a cleave attack, if it hits he may move 5ft and if the next cleave attack hits he may move another 5ft. If he had moved 15ft prior to making the cleave attack he would only have been allowed one 5ft move, or if he had moved 20ft before making the attack he would not be able to use this feat at all.
Additionally, you gain +1 bonus damage on all cleave attacks.
Special: A character with Improved Cleaving finish and BAB +15 is also eligible for this feat and may gain its benefit when he drops a foe.
(Note, in my games theres a houserule on great cleave that says: If you have great cleave, you may ignore one empty square per cleave for the purposes of determining if creatures are adjacent, for example: 4 orks stand in a row, but theres a 5ft gap in the middle of them, with this rule you can cleave the first two, pass by the gap, and cleave the next two.)
Unstoppable cleave.
You are capable of swinging extra wide yet still effective attacks that sweep across scattered foes.
Prerequisites: Great cleave. Base attack bonus +10.
Foes no longer need to be adjacent to each other to be eligible for cleave attacks. After you hit a target with a cleave attack you can attack any other target within reach with the next attack. You still cannot attack any one target more than once with each given cleave attempt. Once per cleave attempt you can target one victim as though your reach were 5ft greater than normal.
Additionally, you gain +1 bonus damage on all cleave attacks.
Concept:
Crunch:
A note on houserules:
TWF: You can add an off hand attack any time you attack with a: AoO, Charge, Cleave, Standard action attack, Dash attack, Vital strike.
Off hand attacks never deliver: Sneak attack damage, Challenge, Smite or Judgement bonus damage (or similar large damage bonuses that trigger situationally or for a limited time).
Improved TWF reduces the attack penalty by 1.
Greater TWF reduces the penalty by another 1 (so for example Longsword in main hand and Short sword in off hand = no penalty).
Mythic Weapon finesse is called Dervish and does not require a mythic character, it has a Bab requirement of +4 and requires weapon finesse.
Note on rouges: Not delivering sneak attack with the off hand is a massive nerf, but that is amended by a system that grants EVERY rouge talent some sneak attack related benefit, mostly the ability to bypass enemy defenses and sneak attack regardless of flanking or dex, but they are all situational or limited use per day or combat. Also the Dervish feat noted above hlps tremendously.
Before adding anything, I'd go back to the drawing board with the martial classes to make sure what they get class ability-wise has some level of freedom that can compare to "pick your spell for the day". That's why spellcasters are able to get so much done, because when they get a list of 50+ options they can pick and choose on a daily/moment's notice, they aren't locked into that choice forever.
Here's how I'd start looking at changing the primarily martial classes:
Fighter: Bonus Feats are a daily selectable thing. Leave a selection open to fill later as a full round action. Remove feat and ability score requirements for feats chosen with this ability (now he's the King of Feats).
Rogue: Grant skill tricks, but give a big list based on choosing a particular field. Allow only a set amount at a time, requiring 1 hour prep to change your set of tricks.
Barbarian: Allow far more rage powers chosen, but limit to only the same amount per rage (there's over a hundred rage powers. Give him access to like 30-40, but limit to the same 1/2 level powers per rage).
Ranger: Make Favored Enemy and Terrain only one at a time (maybe two or three as later level boosts), but make them something he researches and trains (knowledge skills). He then just changes what he's training against/in to change his favored loadout.
This isn't "overpowered" because a) spell lets you get it, and b) you aren't always fighting the one creature type in all combats over a dungeon crawl, so it's still situational.
Paladin: Should be able to change his mercies when he gets his spells, and his Divine Bond should allow the mount be the celestial spirit that enters his weapon, allowing the choice on a per-day basis.
Monk: Strip away all the special abilities. Grant Ki at first level. Make a huge list of abilities that the Monk can automatically gain, learn from masters/scrolls, devise on his own, etc. He then uses his Ki to perform these abilities (limiting factor, powering source).
Also, while I have a pile of fix ideas for unarmed strike combat, one that helps with versatility is the option to "not flurry and get higher damage", allowing more combat methods than just TWF. Not all martial arts must be throwing a ton of attacks.
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Once this is figured out, then adding in skill tricks and feats will work because the classes that use them (Fighter, Rogue), will have their built in versatility with those very things.
This is a really good idea, Kaisoku. Id like to see what you have in store for us.