The way I see it, options (1) and (2) are the only appropriate ones. I'd probably go with option (2) myself.
I disagree with you on the need for a DC to use wild shape. It is a supernatural ability, not a spell-like ability, and supernatural abilities do not require a DC to activate (they might require a DC to resist the effects, but I haven't ever seen a supernatural ability that had a DC to activate). When you read the rules for supernatural ability (page 13), it says "these abilities can be always active or they can require a specific action to utilize" and goes on to say to look at the description given. It never mentions failing because of a difficulty. There is no failure for difficulty because the creature can simply do it.
The description given for Wild Shape is that it's an ability to turn yourself into an animal once per day of the animal sub-type. It functions like beast shape I spell. When it uses the word "function" it doesn't mean you cast a spell or use the DC of that spell, it only means that for the purposes of describing how it works and the rules around it, it is all described in that spell. It's simply there so they don't have to repeat themselves in the book. That is why the beast shape spells also reference the polymorph rules, so you don't have to repeat the polymorph rules every time in a polymorph spell.
Take the doppellganger supernatural ability Perfect Copy. It "functions" (there's that word again) like the spell polymorph, but I don't think anyone rolls a DC to see if a doppellganger can actually polymorph, it just does it.
If you were to roll a DC, it would be a spell-like ability. If there is no DC, then it is a supernatural ability. It's pretty simple.
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Technically, as a supernatural ability (and not a spell), the DC of the power should be 10 + 1/2 level + Charisma. It does not matter that Druids can cast spells and do so with Wisdom, because the default casting stat for (Sp) and (Su) abilities is Charisma unless otherwise noted, and it's not otherwise noted.
This is obviously stupid and wrong and I doubt anyone would actually follow those rules, but the question does sort of break down at this point since you can't ask "what is the rule?" anymore, you have to ask, "how would you rule it?"
To that, I'd rule that it would mimic the creature/ability in question. If the snake's venom says the DC is Constitution based, then it'd be 10 + 1/2 level + Constitution. If that elephant's trample says it's Strength based, then it'd be 10 + 1/2 level + Strength.
I can't totally fault someone for ruling it'd be 10 + mimicked spell level + Wisdom, but because it is (Su) rather than (Sp), if they were not going to follow my advice, I'd prefer if it was at least 10 + 1/2 level + Wisdom.
RAW is pretty clear. Even though its a supernatural ability its one that refers for specifics to a spell. That in turn refers to the polymorph sub school which lists the saving throws based on spell + casting stat.
I don't agree with you, but since you say it's clear, then tell me, what is the casting stat in question?
To that, I'd rule that it would mimic the creature/ability in question. If the snake's venom says the DC is Constitution based, then it'd be 10 + 1/2 level + Constitution. If that elephant's trample says it's Strength based, then it'd be 10 + 1/2 level + Strength.
This seems to be the most logical way to rule it. I'll use this method for my games :)
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I don't agree with you, but since you say it's clear, then tell me, what is the casting stat in question?
I wouldn't say it is "clear", but I'd still go with the spell method and use the spell as if cast by the Druid:
10 + Beast Shape level + Wisdom modifier
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Casting stat are based on the spell, Druid caster stat is Wis so its wisdom based.
Oracle using plant shape, elemental form or one their other polymorph would use Charisma.
A wizard using his transmutation ability would use intelligence.
If there is no clear casting stat than default to Charisma, though right now I can't think of anything that doesn't have a casting stat that can use abilities with beast shape that require saves. Kitsune have Fox Shape, the new shifter book has Bat Shape (though that was poorly edited.) In each of these casing the shape doesn't grant an ability in question.
Keep in mind that this applies only to Polymorph (Subschool) effects and those dependent upon them. Eidolons for example follow the monster rules for their special abilities.
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A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
Its pretty clear. The DC of abilities gained from the Polymorph subschool are equal to the DC of the spell being cast. Since Wildshape refers back to beast shape spells which are of the polymorph subschool you would use this language so the DC is 10 + lvl of the spell + relevant casting stat.
House Rule wise you can definitely make changes but by RAW the answer is right under the polymorph subschool regarding DCs.
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Wild shape depends on Beast Shape which is dependent on Polymorph subschool. Which says the DCs are based on the spell being cast.
Druids use wisdom so wisdom would be their casting stat.
Each class that can access Polymorph via a supernatural ability is either a casting class or using an item.
If its an item the casting stat in question doesn't matter because it will always equal the minimum level needed to cast the spell.
If its a non-casting class that has gained access then its not going to be important (Fox Shape and Bat Shape for example) since neither have abilities that require a DC.
In each case I have found looking at it there is either a caster involved, so its based on that stat or the question is irrelevant to the ability.
Please let me know if there is an example I missed.
Su vs. Sp really doesn't make a difference in this case. These abilities do not define saving throws but only certain effects separate them. Sp require concentration and are affected by Spell Resistance. Su do not require concentration and are not affected by Spell Resistance. Sp provoke, Su do not. Sp can be dispelled Su cannot etc...
The saving throws of individual abilities are determined by those abilities not by the type of ability. So Trample has a listed save, as do Gaze attacks or Fear Auras, these are not dependent upon what kind of ability but rather the ability in questions.
Bards for example have Bardic performance which is all supernatural, but defined in its description as having a 10 + 1/2 level + Cha mod save.
In the case of Wildshape (Su) the fact that it would be Su or Sp makes no difference the saving throw refers not the ability type but to the spell and subschool which is defined as the spell being cast.
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That is not RAW. Wild Shape - Beast Shape - Polymorph Subschool, thats the rules.
In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
BEAST SHAPE I
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 3
WILD SHAPE
This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal with which the druid is familiar.
Staffan Johansson, can you provide an example of an ability with a save DC you are trying to calculate?
I do a lot of wild shaping and this has never come up for me or anyone in my group.
The potential save-DC abilities (as far as I could quickly see) for animal/plant wild shape are poison, trample, and web.
In addition, several abilities you gain when becoming an elemental have save DCs (burn, vortex, whirlwind).
The potential save-DC abilities (as far as I could quickly see) for animal/plant wild shape are poison, trample, and web.
In addition, several abilities you gain when becoming an elemental have save DCs (burn, vortex, whirlwind).
Thanks, I guess I never really looked into that much. Wouldn't you just use the formula described in the ability?
For web: DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Con
For Whirlwind: DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Str
For Trample: DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Str
For Poison: DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Con
For Burn: DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Con
For Vortex: DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Str
When you assume the form you get the listed abilities, it would be implied that you follow the listed abilities rules, including DC calculations. you would use your adjusted ability scores in those equations since you are now taking that form.
I know it is not a perfect example but I have hero lab loaded with my wild shape druid. When I activate my elephant form it auto calculates a DC of 15 for Trample.
Which equates to: 10 + 1/2 elephant HD not my HD (3) + my adjusted STR +2 = 15
Wild shape depends on Beast Shape which is dependent on Polymorph subschool. Which says the DCs are based on the spell being cast.
Druids use wisdom so wisdom would be their casting stat.
This is where the problem starts. Just because the Druid can cast spells and does so with Wisdom does not mean that suddenly, the DC of Supernatural or Spell-like powers that they have are based on Wisdom, too.
The default attribute for Supernatural and Spell-like powers is Charisma, unless it is otherwise stated. It is not otherwise stated. There is absolutely zero precedent for just deciding that the stat is Wisdom because Druids can cast spells with Wisdom.
If some random demon took levels of Druid, would all of their spell-like ability save DCs suddenly be based on Wisdom instead of Charisma? No, of course not.
I don't think it is necessarily correct that a Supernatural ability that references a spell/the polymorph subschool should suddenly have a DC that mimics a spell anyway (I am 90% confident that it's still 10 + 1/2 level + stat, not 10 + spell level + stat), but I am 100% confident that you don't just suddenly change the default stat for these sorts of things to Wisdom.
And this is basically the point I was making all along--the actual rules here (it should be 10 + half level + Charisma) are not good. Setting the DC to be based on Charisma makes no sense, so you should ultimately just houserule it, and I think the best houserule is to copy the ability's save (so Strength for Trample, Con for Poison, etc.).
so you should ultimately just houserule it, and I think the best houserule is to copy the ability's save (so Strength for Trample, Con for Poison, etc.).
And that's a great bandaid solution for most folks out there. Unfortunately some of us are stuck in the lands of RAW. If Paizo could just speak up at some point and say "No, it's written in the bestiary. Use the rules in the Universal Monster Rules." or "He's a Druid, duh. Use Wisdom." Or even "MPL has it right, use charisma for all of that stuff." It'd reduce a heck of a lot of table variation for those of us that face that.
According to beast shape you gain the abilities listed in the spell.
Nothing special about it. You are the animal you shape in to and you have some of its abilities. If you don't know what the ability does you look it up in the Bestiary following all written rules for it, including DCs.
It seems quite plain and simple to me. Why are people arguing it?
There is no special saving roll involved. You're not hitting someone with the Beast Shape spell or any spell effect or special ability. There is no saving throw listed for Beast Shape for good reason.. the spell only effects the caster. All you're doing with the form is normal melee, in which case normal melee rules apply. (or in this case, special maneuver) As opposed to Poison which is a special ability that involves a save on the part of your opponent. Trample on the on the other hand is more akin to applying a CMB roll.
This.
If you want to know the DC for Trample look it up in the Bestiary it is clearly listed. Same goes for Poison and any other ability a monster can have.
DC to the poison in the Bestiary says 10 + 1/2 HD + Con. So when you are in a form with poison and you have 6 HD and +2 Con, the fort save against the poison would be 10 + 3 + 2 = 15. It is that simple.
It's not that simple, because it's wrong. The spell overrides the general poison/etc rules, an says that any abilities you gain as a result of the new form use the spell's DC. Wild Shape says it works like Beast Shape/Elemental Body except where noted, and it doesn't note that it changes how the DCs are calculated.If you want to know the DC for Trample look it up in the Bestiary it is clearly listed. Same goes for Poison and any other ability a monster can have.
DC to the poison in the Bestiary says 10 + 1/2 HD + Con. So when you are in a form with poison and you have 6 HD and +2 Con, the fort save against the poison would be 10 + 3 + 2 = 15. It is that simple.
I see. I didn't read through polymorph, I just stopped at beast shape which doesn't mention anything about DC.
Well in that case if wild shape functions like the spell excepted as noted in wild shape then I would say dc is as if you were casting the spell. Since Druid bases spells off Wisdom you would use that.
So 10 + Wisdom + Spell Level
It sounds like the issue with 10 + WIS + Spell Level is that it doesn't scale.
If the developers wanted it to scale it would be called out in wild shape it self. If you want to scale it your self use a higher level morph.
But you do use higher level morphs. You can use Beast Shape III, Elemental Body IV, and Plant Shape III You use your best version of the spell even if you could previously use a different one. A level 8 druid who Wild Shapes into a Medium wolf uses Beast Shape III.It sounds like the issue with 10 + WIS + Spell Level is that it doesn't scale.
If the developers wanted it to scale it would be called out in wild shape it self. If you want to scale it your self use a higher level morph.
Yep, my point exactly. You could use Beast Shape IV into a Medium wolf which would increase a DC by 1, not that a wolf actually has an ability to apply a DC to but it is just an example.
Wild Shape doesn't include Beast Shape IV, but otherwise, yes.
That's right, forgot about that, but the fact still remains for smaller creatures. It has me wondering though why they decided to stop at BS III and not IV. Too OP perhaps, anyway that is probably a discussion for another thread :)
so you should ultimately just houserule it, and I think the best houserule is to copy the ability's save (so Strength for Trample, Con for Poison, etc.).And that's a great bandaid solution for most folks out there. Unfortunately some of us are stuck in the lands of RAW. If Paizo could just speak up at some point and say "No, it's written in the bestiary. Use the rules in the Universal Monster Rules." or "He's a Druid, duh. Use Wisdom." Or even "MPL has it right, use charisma for all of that stuff." It'd reduce a heck of a lot of table variation for those of us that face that.
Personally, I like table variation. :)
Personally, I would PREFER if all mental stat based DCs used (Spell Level+) WIS,
and physical stat based ones used the relevant stat of the normal ability.
Although it's plausible for Poison to use WIS since it's magically created poison.
Stuff like STR-based DCs just feels wrong to use WIS for the DC, especially given Pathfinder's changes to Wildshape
which make your actual STR score relevant to your Wildshape stats and thus using those is LESS 'MAD' for a Wildshape-focused build focused on STR>WIS)
Rules wise, I use WIS for everything, as WIS is the only indicated 'casting stat' for Druids and this is a Druid ability that doesn't otherwise indicate any other 'casting stat' or 'DC stat' to use for it's function, thus WIS is the only thing to use when prompted for the druid's 'casting stat'.
I do feel that is screwing over anybody who 'followed the new Pathfinder paradigm' and boosted STR and CON over WIS to emphasize Wildshape prowess, and STR/CON *do* help in Wildshape... for everything but DCs. Meanwhile, a Druid who dumped STR/CON and maxed WIS (to be a "Caster Druid" and is pitifully weak for most purposes in Wildshape) inexplicably has a super high DC for STR/CON based DCs from Wildshape abilities.
FAQ'd.
For those in the camp of it functioning like the spell, why is it that Wild Shape cannot be dispelled or countered? Is is not that the ability transcends the power granted by the Spell itself?
A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.To me, this is the main argument that the Polymorph rules hold above the Spell DC rules.
I'm not sure I'm following you here. You are correct it cannot be dispelled. And the polymorph rules say 10 + WIS + Spell Level.
I'm also not sure we are in a camp when the rules for wild shape specifically say it functions like the spell...
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The Polymorph subschool rules state that spells should go with a DC of 10 + SL + Casting Stat Mod.
But Wildshape isn't a spell. It's a Supernatural ability (Su). Even though it references the various Beast Shape spells, it's not (Sp).
And Supernatural abilities default to a DC of 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha Mod.
That is the crux of the argument.
Personally, I like table variation. :)Some, like me, hate table variation.
PFS?
The Polymorph subschool rules state that spells should go with a DC of 10 + SL + Casting Stat Mod.
But Wildshape isn't a spell. It's a Supernatural ability (Su). Even though it references the various Beast Shape spells, it's not (Sp).
And Supernatural abilities default to a DC of 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha Mod.
That is the crux of the argument.
The DCs of spells do not depend on Polymorph rules, they depend on spell rules.
What is being discussed here isn't the DC of the spell/su ability per se,but the DC of the individual abilities granted by the spell/wildshape ability.
Without that line in Polymorph, we would use the Bestiary definition of each ability, using a variety of stats (CON, STR).
...NOT the general formula for Su abilities, because what is going on is that the Su ability here is granting another ability.
However, Wildshape is said to work like the spell it's based on, and the Polymorph rules define that spell's effects.
That doesn't depend on the 'vehicle' for that spell's effects still being a spell or not,
the Polymorph rules describe the spell's effects, and Wildshape is applying the spell's effects.