Goblin Squad Member
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This seems logical to get into in the blog after (best case scenario) how to extract huge amounts of resources in middle of the wilderness.
As a former EVE industrialist my interest at the start of EE is in making and driving the transports. I predict with the flash and glamor of crafting and attention paid to kits and surveying that most initial skills will go into making cargo and the quantity will soon exceed the ability to transport it.
If the development state of creating and using single-player carts or huge caravans isn't ready for blogging are there any tidbits reliable enough with standard asterisks* to release and hold us for a while? Or a guesstimate (weeks vs. 2 months vs. next summer) of when it will be ready for the blog?
* - anything is subject to change with new iterations. Don't worry about releasing information that gets alarmist laments that the sky is falling. Have you seen these forums you could release a statement that PFO won't have flying cars and get 87 posts how that kills the economy, promotes toxic ganking and signals the death knell of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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* - PFO won't have flying cars
WTF!?!?!?!?! flying cars?? THAT WILL KILL THE ECONOMY.....AND PROMOTE TOXIC GANKING .....AND!?!?!?! SIGNAL THE DEATH KNELL OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!! NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The above is an over dramatization brought to you by "The Goodfellow." Please quote responsibly. :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mbando got lucky with his Suggestion for Next Blog: I Shot a Man in Reno Just to Watch Him Die.
Perhaps Proxima Sin will be just as lucky with her(?) suggestion that the next blog discuss Caravans.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Coming to a future Dev Blog near youThey are very heavy and probably require a caravan to transport with any efficiency. (We'll get around to talking about caravans in one of these posts...)Carry me Caravan take me away
One of my favorite Doors songs
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really look forward to the caravan mechanics, something we're very interested in at the Mercatorum.
The idea of providing escort for a Caravan is one of the most exciting ideas out there for me. The knowledge that you're fair game to any Bandits who think they have what it takes to rob you, the pulse-pounding excitement of knowing you could be attacked at any moment by actual human beings who will surprise you with their tactics, and the flush of victory when you finally secure that trove of treasure all combine to make me feel giddy just thinking about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really look forward to the caravan mechanics, something we're very interested in at the Mercatorum.The idea of providing escort for a Caravan is one of the most exciting ideas out there for me. The knowledge that you're fair game to any Bandits who think they have what it takes to rob you, the pulse-pounding excitement of knowing you could be attacked at any moment by actual human beings who will surprise you with their tactics, and the flush of victory when you finally secure that trove of treasure all combine to make me feel giddy just thinking about it.
I'm imagining a particular episode of Firefly right now, something about pretty little bonnets... lol
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Goblin Squad Member
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How long before someone from the UNC chips in with some very helpful pro-bandit ideas for Caravans and related matters? :)
It won't be long, I'll be back from work related trip by tomorrow night. In the mean time, The Goodfellow and Xeen have already chimed in..... Details will follow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm imagining a particular episode of Firefly right now, something about pretty little bonnets... lolI really look forward to the caravan mechanics, something we're very interested in at the Mercatorum.The idea of providing escort for a Caravan is one of the most exciting ideas out there for me. The knowledge that you're fair game to any Bandits who think they have what it takes to rob you, the pulse-pounding excitement of knowing you could be attacked at any moment by actual human beings who will surprise you with their tactics, and the flush of victory when you finally secure that trove of treasure all combine to make me feel giddy just thinking about it.
I imagine that Malcolm Reynolds quote will be the most common phrase used to deny SADs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How long before someone from the UNC chips in with some very helpful pro-bandit ideas for Caravans and related matters? :)Here is one...
SAD's, You deny them, we grow smile and take 75%.
Hows that for a helpful pro-bandit idea?
How about this?
Saying "yes" to our SAD will save you a long walk and at least 25% of your haul.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How long before someone from the UNC chips in with some very helpful pro-bandit ideas for Caravans and related matters? :)Here is one...
SAD's, You deny them, we grow smile and take 75%.
Hows that for a helpful pro-bandit idea?
How about this?
Saying "yes" to our SAD will save you a long walk and at least 25% of your haul.
I have a better idea, go with my idea...
SAD's, You deny them, we grow smile and take 75%.
You put bounty/assassination contract on my head.
Milo collects bounty and gives me 50%.
We profit more them 75% from you.
Hows that?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a better idea, go with my idea...SAD's, You deny them, we grow smile and take 75%.
You put bounty/assassination contract on my head.
Milo collects bounty and gives me 50%.
We profit more them 75% from you.Hows that?
Oh no you won't:
A bounty is effectively a player-generated kill quest. You go to a local mailbox/post office, select your target from your enemies List, deposit your payment, and set minimums or maximums for alignment and reputation to take the bounty. (You may want to make it harder for the target's friends to take it, although your killer's friends might have trouble getting to that particular mailbox due to settlement restrictions). You can also restrict the bounty to a specific character, chartered company or settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a better idea, go with my idea...SAD's, You deny them, we grow smile and take 75%.
You put bounty/assassination contract on my head.
Milo collects bounty and gives me 50%.
We profit more them 75% from you.Hows that?
Oh no you won't:
A bounty is effectively a player-generated kill quest. You go to a local mailbox/post office, select your target from your enemies List, deposit your payment, and set minimums or maximums for alignment and reputation to take the bounty. (You may want to make it harder for the target's friends to take it, although your killer's friends might have trouble getting to that particular mailbox due to settlement restrictions). You can also restrict the bounty to a specific character, chartered company or settlement.
Oh yes I will...
Alt will not be known to be me, and will be a PVP character of high rep and alignment. So it may not be Milo as in the character, but it could be me or milo as the player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh it will be me, disguise to get into your settlement, high reputation (I have standards) to accept the contract, then kill xeen for laughs, then return to kill contract issuer for good measure. That way, Xeen robs you of 75%, You pay me to kill him, then I kill you. I win and your broke and dead....again.
But I digress, we are getting WAYYYY off topic on this, lets return to the OP discussing those wonderful "Meals on wheels" known as Caravans.
Remember, Use of a caravan, makes you a bigger target, but also is much more efficient. But is the savings worth the risk?? We at the UNC think so. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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"On the use of Caravans"
The purpose of using a caravan is three-fold. First it allows for the transport of a larger cargo of people or goods. Second, it can travel at a faster rate because roads are typically established for the specific use of caravans. Finally, caravans usually enjoy greater protection.
The suggested requirements for the use of caravans:
1. Skills to access the use of a caravan. Each skill level will increase the three purposes (capacity, speed, protection). It may be a good idea to have all three be a separate skill.
2. Caravans being prime targets for banditry / privateering are considered "Sanctioned" targets for PVP. This may also be tied to a certain level of overall caravan training (just as factions are, ie. level 4 +).
3. Caravans must have pack animals, which can be targeted in combat for a variety of effects (damage, fear, control, etc.).
On the use of Guards:
Caravan guards come in two types, and have multiple levels within those types.
NPC Guards (Drones, for those familiar with EVE Online).
Based on the level of caravan skill the merchant / traveler has, the number and quality of the guards that can be purchased will rely on.
* All NPC guards are paid upon the delivery of the cargo, not at the point of picking up the cargo. This is to protect the merchant from having to pay, essentially twice, for undelivered cargo.
Example: Merchant is stopped and issued a SAD. He decides the offer is worth not risking the fight, and hands over 20% of cargo. The guards will only be paid for the safe delivery of the 80%. This is to ensure that there is not an added disincentive for the merchant to accept a more reasonable SAD offer.
If of course the merchant and his guards are all killed, than the cargo is lost and the guards did not do their job.
PC Guards, will require (in most cases) to be paid on the front and back-end of the deal. The merchant is not just paying for the safe delivery of the cargo, he is also paying for the time spent by another player.
"Fast Travel, Hide-Outs and other Details"
The Devs have eluded to some of these details, but not very much. They have said that there won't be roots, binds, or other CC style abilities that we usually see in other MMOs. We do know that:
* Fast Travel can be cancelled
* Hideouts do grant knowledge of targets
* Hideouts are not easy to detect
* Hideouts can be captured or destroyed
I have a few hopes:
1. That Intimidation can have some role in banditry / counter banditry
2. Pack Animals can be killed as a tactic to strand a caravan.
3. Hideouts or specific observation skills can give the bandits enough information to choose "worthwhile" targets for their SAD / Ambushes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that Caravans, like anyone else, should be able to choose between being sanctioned/flagged targets or choosing to be unflagged targets. It might follow the old Traveler flag, but with or without the alignment requirement, so there could be trade-offs between flagging and not flagging.
If Caravans are always flagged/sanctioned targets, then they are legitimate targets for any flagged or unflagged characters. So settlement alliances, faction alliances, all of these are irrelevant. If, for example, a LG patrol sees a LG-owned Caravan, they can attack it, kill everyone, take all the fat lutes, and hey - they were a Caravan, so no harm, no foul, right?
On the other hand, if Caravans have the choice of flagging or not, then characters will still be able to attack enemy Caravans as defined by settlement relations, faction strife, and feuds. And if none of these are in effect, SADs can still be used against unflagged Caravans.
I think making Caravans automatically free-for-all targets just removes a whole lot of possibilities that should fall within the settlement, company, and faction conflict rules.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Urman,
Individual settlements and companies will have their own rules (laws) about attacking caravans regardless of the caravan's level, faction, politics, etc..
The Pax / UNC alliance is a perfect example of this being handled at the player level. We have hammered out a policy that not so much limits the activities of UNC, but directs them in certain ways, while still maintaining our autonomy and it will maintain Pax's image as a leader in world trade.
Let no game mechanic be developed, to do what the players can do for themselves.
If caravans can choose to flag or not to flag, they would never flag. They would use the added consequences of "unsanctioned PVP" as a shield against those that are worried about such things as alignment and or reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If caravans can choose to flag or not to flag, they would never flag. They would use the added consequences of "unsanctioned PVP" as a shield against those that are worried about such things as alignment and or reputation.
Whether caravans flag or not is their choice and depends on their perceptions of risk and rewards.
As the bandit, you get to choose whether to attack them or not; maybe whether to declare a feud or not. If you don't care about the alignment consequences and are sure you can game the reputation system, it won't be a problem for you.
If your settlement is at war with the caravan's settlement, you can attack them; that's a sanctioned attack. If UNC has an ongoing feud with the caravan's company; that's a sanctioned attack. If you see a fat caravan going along and it isn't flagged, then you don't have any justification to attack them. If you murder people and steal their stuff without a legitimate cause, the Golarian gods know that you have murdered people and stolen stuff, and your alignment suffers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh man, I just had a mental image of 8 siege weapons on a hill and their alpha on a caravan. There's going to be that one smallish settlement that everyone passes by because it's the junction to two major trading markets and things will be crazy up in the hills.
For the game, having caravans open to player takeovers is a key aspect of the economy and interaction.
Although, what about a caravan that happens to have level 4+ factioners in it. Is the whole cargo up for grabs without consequences if it's a settlement/company owned caravan? Are enemy factions still allowed to pick off their L4+ enemies as long as they don't mess with other characters or property? That could turn into a situational tactic to weaken a caravan for a SAD or further attack...
But in character I just can't find a justification for "that guy had a backpack of stuff so it's wrong to mess with him but over there they have a ton of stuff so it's always okay to take it from them without the consequences of backpack guy. The amount of stuff you have on you makes a big difference".
Making all caravans auto-flagged for attacks (even without wars/feuds) doesn't make sense to me yet in the context we've established for flagging.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can someone remind me of the alignment/rep consequences of SADing a party that isn't flagged under the latest version? Can you just train SAD and ask for 95% of the stuff of literally everyone you see flagged or not and never take a reputation hit if they say yes or say no and you kill them?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Although, what about a caravan that happens to have level 4+ factioners in it. Is the whole cargo up for grabs without consequences if it's a settlement/company owned caravan?
I expect there will be a single Teamster who is responsible for running the Caravan, and who is the only one who can be directly targeted by SADs, and who must be killed or attacked in order to stop the Caravan.
Can someone remind me of the alignment/rep consequences of SADing a party that isn't flagged under the latest version?
Currently unknown.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It was like Xeen describes. The Outlaw flag was removed when factional PvP was introduced, but Stephen Cheney has said "Not much has changed conceptually about Stand and Deliver other than moving it to a feat."
The SAD mechanic had some obvious exploits since its inception: the 1g SAD to immunize a caravan against future SADs and the obscenely large SAD demand to immunize the bandits who want to attack and kill the caravan. The rules may change in the future to remove these exploits, but haven't yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's going to have to be an ownership mechanic for the caravan to resolve the multitude of affiliations any one driver will have for determining who that caravan gets flagged to.
The driver (it better take a skill train to operate bigger, faster, more efficient vehicles) should be the one to select if the caravan is owned by a settlement, company, individual character (faction implications?), or possibly a faction transport.
Also there's a question of guard affiliations. The caravan itself isn't flagged but 2 guards are in a company feuding mine, so am I clear to gank just those 2 characters with my 5 and none of the other 7 guards can assist without rep/alignment implications? For the record I currently endorse some sort of mechanic that temporarily overwrites a character's attributes for flagging to match the caravan's until it's completed, destroyed, or the player leaves it. That way everyone associated with the caravan has a homogenous flag for potential pvp and attacks on them as a single entity can't be gamed by the unscrupulous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... Stephen Cheney has said "Not much has changed conceptually about Stand and Deliver other than moving it to a feat."
Still, I stand by my assessment that the Reputation and Alignment consequences for issuing a Stand-and-Deliver challenge to a part that isn't flagged are currently unknown.
But for the record, the original blog on Stand-and-Deliver:
... stand and deliver... allows the Outlaw to demand money from their victim through a trade window. If the victim refuses, the Outlaw gets to carry out his threats of force without losing reputation.
If the victim was offered and rejected stand and deliver, the Outlaw loses no reputation for killing the target within five minutes of the rejection.
If the victim and Outlaw completed a stand-and-deliver trade, the Outlaw loses double reputation for killing the target within 20 minutes. (If they pay, you should let them go.)
When an Outlaw receives a ransom from stand and deliver, they get reputation up to a daily max.
I will be extremely surprised if anyone is ever able to gain reputation by issuing Stand-and-Deliver challenges.
Personally, I think it's better to treat the current state as unknown than to assume all of these features are still in place. Being "coceptually" the same doesn't mean it will have the same implementation. The concept - the principle - is that bandits should be encouraged to give their targets an opportunity to pay a ransom. The rest is implementation details.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... it better take a skill train to operate bigger, faster, more efficient vehicles...
I think Ryan's on top of that :)
Getting a wagonload of resources out of the wilderness and back to a civilized area will be a challenge. It would be useful therefore to think about becoming an effective teamster able to drive fast, move quietly, detect threats, and use cover and camouflage to hide.
Or hire someone who is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also there's a question of guard affiliations. The caravan itself isn't flagged but 2 guards are in a company feuding mine, so am I clear to gank just those 2 characters with my 5 and none of the other 7 guards can assist without rep/alignment implications? For the record I currently endorse some sort of mechanic that temporarily overwrites a character's attributes for flagging to match the caravan's until it's completed, destroyed, or the player leaves it. That way everyone associated with the caravan has a homogenous flag for potential pvp and attacks on them as a single entity can't be gamed by the unscrupulous.
They way I see it working:
The Caravan is a sanctioned target if the Teamster is. The guards are sanctioned targets if the Caravan is, in exchange for being free to attack anyone who stops the caravan (or something) without suffering Rep/Alignment hits. Players who aren't flagged as official caravan guards shouldn't be able to travel with the caravan in such a way that they could assist in its defense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The concept - the principle - is that bandits should be encouraged to give their targets an opportunity to pay a ransom. The rest is implementation details.
I don't disagree.
I would say that a lot has changed from the original SAD concept. Then, the bandit could expect to loot 25% of the unthreaded items if they attacked. Now they can loot 75%. Feuds have been added; factional warfare has been added. I wonder if the entire concept of the SAD attack needs to be rebuilt from scratch, starting with the assumptions and drivers behind it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... Stephen Cheney has said "Not much has changed conceptually about Stand and Deliver other than moving it to a feat."Still, I stand by my assessment that the Reputation and Alignment consequences for issuing a Stand-and-Deliver challenge to a part that isn't flagged are currently unknown.
But for the record, the original blog on Stand-and-Deliver:
... stand and deliver... allows the Outlaw to demand money from their victim through a trade window. If the victim refuses, the Outlaw gets to carry out his threats of force without losing reputation.
If the victim was offered and rejected stand and deliver, the Outlaw loses no reputation for killing the target within five minutes of the rejection.
If the victim and Outlaw completed a stand-and-deliver trade, the Outlaw loses double reputation for killing the target within 20 minutes. (If they pay, you should let them go.)
When an Outlaw receives a ransom from stand and deliver, they get reputation up to a daily max.I will be extremely surprised if anyone is ever able to gain reputation by issuing Stand-and-Deliver challenges.
Personally, I think it's better to treat the current state as unknown than to assume all of these features are still in place. Being "coceptually" the same doesn't mean it will have the same implementation. The concept - the principle - is that bandits should be encouraged to give their targets an opportunity to pay a ransom. The rest is implementation details.
Really?
What do you have to go by that the whole plan for SAD has changed?
Reread Urman's post...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would say that a lot has changed from the original SAD concept. Then, the bandit could expect to loot 25% of the unthreaded items if they attacked. Now they can loot 75%. Feuds have been added; factional warfare has been added. I wonder if the entire concept of the SAD attack needs to be rebuilt from scratch, starting with the assumptions and drivers behind it.
Why?
I dont remember seeing 25% as a min/max anywhere
Feuds were always a plan for the game
Faction warfare has nothing to do with SAD
The assumptions and drivers are bandits being a part of the sandbox, nothing more. Take SAD away and you will just have people make gank characters, who will work in more not intended ways then with SAD.
Actually I think both of you guys are basing SAD on a false assumption for the driver behind it.