Step 0: Wizard 1/Figter 6/Arcane Archer 1
Retraining, Step 1: Remove a level. We remove a level of Fighter. We are now a Wizard 1/Fighter 5/Arcane Archer 1.
Retraining, Step 2: Check legality. I still have my feats, level 1 spellcasting, and most importantly, +6 BaB: 5 from Figter levels, 1 from Arcane Archer.
Retraining, Step 3: Add a level. I pick Arcane Archer.
Step 4: Repeat 1-3 until I'm a Wizard 1/Arcane Archer 7.
Obviously, the process ought to fail in step 2. But, RAW, I don't see that it does.
|
I don't see how that could be legal. The moment you remove the requirement to be AA level 1 (i.e. while you are still legally taking AA level 2, your level 1 requirement is no longer met), you've invalidated the ability to be an AA altogether.
I do not believe retraining lets you retrain into illegal builds.
|
I think that what the OP is saying is that once you increase your BAB from the Arcane Archer level you can then retrain to remove the fighter level and add another AA level....as long as the BAB requirement is met by having enough levels in AA that removing +1bab fighter level doesn't drop you below reqs you can supposedly retrain all fighter levels into AA levels.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think that what the OP is saying is that once you increase your BAB from the Arcane Archer level you can then retrain to remove the fighter level and add another AA level....as long as the BAB requirement is met by having enough levels in AA that removing +1bab fighter level doesn't drop you below reqs you can supposedly retrain all fighter levels into AA levels.
Requirements don't work that way. Your BAB prerequisite has to be met *before* you take your first level in AA. If you remove the level of fighter then your BAB drops and all your levels in AA become invalid and don't contribute to your BAB until the prerequisite is met again.
|
|
You could wait until you are Wiz 1/Fighter 6/AA 2 and then retrain your fighter levels into AA levels one at a time.
However, this would cost 7 prestige per level.
When you retrain a class level, you lose all the benef its
of the highest level you have in that class. You immediately
select a different class, add a level in that class, and gain
all the benef its of that new class level.
This retraining does not allow you to reselect the feats
your character gains at odd levels or the ability score
increases your character gains every four levels (though
you can retrain those options separately). If retraining a
class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige
class, or other ability you have, you can’t use that feat,
prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualif ications
again. (You can still retrain that feat, prestige class, or
other ability.)
The rules actually do not say you check qualifications as you lose the level. You immediately gain the retrained level back, then check any feats and class abilities qualifications. At that time you now qualify for the level of AA again.
|
At some point though, you have to allow PFS GMs to work with RAI. Because when RAW is not at all what's intended, and you force it on PFS GMs, then something is wrong.
In this case, it is just ambiguous enough, that I will go with SKR's intentions. If someone wants to do a retrain like that at my table, I will not allow it.
If someone comes to my table and I find that they have retrained like that, I'll tell them that table variation has made their character illegal at my table.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's entirely illogical and blatantly cheeseball to assume that the retraining rules are intended to allow you to circumvent the prerequisite rules for a class.
If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can’t use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again. (You can still retrain that feat, prestige class, or other ability.)
That's the key part right there. Once you train out of fighter, then you no longer meet the prerequisites for a prestige class (arcane archer) and you can no longer use that prestige class (including for the purposes of calculating BAB to meet the requirements for the same prestige class) until you meet the requirements again. Adding a second level of arcane archer does not mean that you suddenly meet the prerequisites, because you cannot use your levels in arcane archer until you qualify (aka meet the prerequisites) for arcane archer.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Andrew, that situation is similar, but distinct in one important point.
The gimmick here is that Mike has given the charactera second level in Arcane Archer. With the five levelsof Fighter, it has a BAB of 6.
So,the character retrains and, momentarily, loses a level of Fighter. It stillhas a BAB of 5 without that level. Can the character take a level of Arcane Archer? It meets all the pre-requisities, so yes.
In the example on the thread you posted, the retraining character checked at the beginning and end of the process to see if it met the pre-requisites for Mystic Theurge, but it didn't check in the middle of the process, when it had to choose the level of Mystic Theurge. At that point, choosing Mystic Theurge was illegal, because it no longer met the pre-requisites.
In this case, it is just ambiguous enough, that I will go with SKR's intentions. If someone wants to do a retrain like that at my table, I will not allow it.
If someone comes to my table and I find that they have retrained like that, I'll tell them that table variation has made their character illegal at my table.
I'm perfectly fine with that first ruling.
I have problems with the second one.
Remember a couple of months ago, before Mike ruled that cross-blooded sorcerers could meet the prerequisites for Dragon Disciple, when I was asserting that they didn't? Several people (for example, Bob) were concerned that this stand would make characters who were perfectly legal at other tables, with the approval of the table GMs and anyone else, suddenly unplayable at the next table at a con.
I agreed then, that such was a problem. Can you see that this is the same situation? "Table variation" shouldn't mean that an entire character is legal at some tables but not others.
I agree you can prevent a player from sitting at your table, for whatever reason you please. 'i just don'tlike Summoners'. Fine. But that's different from saying that the character is illegal. (Should the player have two versions of the character, 73421-3.a and 73421-3.b, with different abilities,depending on which GM he sits with?)
|
|
LINKThanks Andrew. I am glad to be wrong on this one.
I figured you would be. I don't think any of us wanted to be "trapped" into allowing that level of cheese.
There is a reason that some prestige classes require you to be 7th or higher level to take.
And retraining shouldn't be a vehicle to circumvent that reasoning.
|
|
Andrew, that situation is similar, but distinct in one important point.** spoiler omitted **
As Jon Carey indicated above, no.
Once you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you no longer have that class. Therefore you cannot use that classes BAB (or anything else for that matter) to qualify for other things.
In other words, you cannot use Arcane Archer to qualify for Arcane Archer.
EDIT: It would be nice to be able to achieve some of the higher level Arcane Archer stuff before a character either gets retired or hits module and special only territory. I have a build I'm working on right now (currently a level 5 Wizard, gonna get 6, then take 3 levels of paladin, then go with Arcane Archer). It would be nice to have more than 2 levels of Arcane Archer before I basically can't play anything else (will probably be my 6th character at level 12). So I do have a dog in this. But I can't justify doing it, because it just doesn't look right, feel right, and by SKR's post, it obviously wasn't intended to be right.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
@Chris: BAB 5 doesn't qualify for Arcane Archer, so no, he doesn't qualify for that next level.
That's what I get for posting without QC. I meant BAB 6. (4 for the remaining four levels in Fighter, and 2 for the two levels in Arcane Archer).
Once you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you no longer have that class.
I don't think that's true. Let's say a character is a Fighter 6/Duelist 3. Let's say he takes 2 points of Dexterity drain, and his Dex drops from 14 to 12. He no longer qualifies for Dodge, so he no longer meets the pre-requisites for Duelist. Are you saying that he drops to 6th level? His 3d10 hit points go away? His +3 BAB?
I don't think that's the way the game works.
|
|
Once you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you no longer have that class.I don't think that's true. Let's say a character is a Fighter 6/Duelist 3. Let's say he takes 2 points of Dexterity drain, and his Dex drops from 14 to 12. He no longer qualifies for Dodge, so he no longer meets the pre-requisites for Duelist. Are you saying that he drops to 6th level? His 3d10 hit points go away? His +3 BAB?
I don't think that's the way the game works.
That's not how the game works, I agree. But you're not comparing apples to apples.
The reference I quoted from Ultimate Campaign is specifically talking about retraining, not about ability drain during combat.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
It's relevant to note that in the thread Andy linked (SKR's actual post is HERE, a few posts down from Andy's link), SKR says "Weirdo and Wraithstrike are correct." The posts from those two posters seem to be speaking very generally (such as "can I use retraining to gain abilities I couldn't have qualified for at the time I took the ability I'm losing, but do qualify for now?"), not about a specific build. Thus, I think the correct conclusion as to what SKR meant is that no, you can't do this whole "Prestige Class Bootstrapping" thing.
Developer
|
This isn't a question for the Pathfinder Society forums. Since Jiggy's above link references a clarification from the design team on this issue, I won't bother to move this thread, but in general, questions about how the rules work that aren't dependent on specific Pathfinder Society changes or additional rules should be posted in the general rules forum.
Venture-Agent, Indiana—Valparaiso
|
I posted a thread in the general rules forum a few weeks ago actually.
Link: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q1do?Can-retraining-be-used-to-make-a-characte r
If you're interested in this please FAQ the 1st post of that thread.
And Mark if you're listening and can hasten a faq along at all please do.
If not I understand.
|
|
My understanding of a design team member saying that's not what was intended is that there's a process in place at Paizo to get an official FAQ made up, but that takes time and work, however in the meantime, "unofficially" - that's not how it's supposed to work.
It's better than no response at all because it allows at least some guidance to GM's who want to use commonsense as their idea of RAW, whether an FAQ exists or not (yet).
|
Chris Mortika, you cannot include the BAB granted by any levels of AA into your formula.
If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can’t use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.
The moment you lose enough BAB required for AA, you no longer qualify for AA.
|
|
Anyone who thinks this is ok or intended is looking for ways to break/beat the system. There is no way retraining was intended to allow characters that couldn't exist otherwise. Unlike some rules questions, this one seems pretty clear the intent. Most honest players/gms can easily come to the same conclusion.
|
Venture-Agent, Indiana—Valparaiso
|
Nefreet, Chris's example only fails because AA has a BaB requirement of +6 not +5.
Say the character is Sorcerer 1/ Fighter 6 / Arcane Archer 1.
This character has a BaB of +7.
He wants to retrain a Fighter level into a level of Arcane Archer.
He strips of a level of Fighter and still has a BaB of +6 so still qualifies.
The character never loses enough BaB not to qualify for Arcane Archer.
The problem is that one point of that BaB is from Arcane Archer itself. We do not have any clear rule saying this doesn't work. RAI I don't think it's suppossed to work this way but RAW I agree with CHris.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nefreet, Chris's example only fails because AA has a BaB requirement of +6 not +5.
Say the character is Sorcerer 1/ Fighter 6 / Arcane Archer 1.
This character has a BaB of +7.
He wants to retrain a Fighter level into a level of Arcane Archer.
He strips of a level of Fighter and still has a BaB of +6 so still qualifies.
The character never loses enough BaB not to qualify for Arcane Archer.
The problem is that one point of that BaB is from Arcane Archer itself. We do not have any clear rule saying this doesn't work. RAI I don't think it's suppossed to work this way but RAW I agree with CHris.
But the argument is, once you strip off the level of fighter, you no longer qualify for the Arcane Archer, because to get Arcane Archer you needed a BAB of +6. But when you strip off that level of Fighter, you now don't qualify for AA, therefore you don't get the BAB of AA to qualify for more AA.
|
Venture-Agent, Indiana—Valparaiso
|
Andrew, I understand your argument too.
The problem is under the retraining rules as written it says nothing about checking prestige class eligibility for the levels you alreayd have, just for the level you want to take.
But this is why we put the thread in the rules forum, hopefully we'll get a FAQ sometime.
|
|
It doesnt have to.
The burden of proof, as with anything else in PFS, lies with the player. The player must proove that it IS legal. As long as the GM is saying 'it doesnt work like that', and the player has no paper with Mike Brock saying 'Yes it does.', then the player is stuck following the GMs ruling.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Andrew, I understand your argument too.
The problem is under the retraining rules as written it says nothing about checking prestige class eligibility for the levels you alreayd have, just for the level you want to take.
But this is why we put the thread in the rules forum, hopefully we'll get a FAQ sometime.
Actually it does Brian.
I'll requote what nefreet quoted above:
If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can’t use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again.
Its patently ridiculous to assume that a prestige class could be used to qualify for itself.