Hi. So, I've been thinking of actually running a game once in my life, and I'd like it to be a Pathfinder game. I really like the rules and whatnot. The twist is, I'd want it to be like a fantasy western. The idea of dusty gunslingers dealing with Gnoll dynamite gangs, or investigating a goldmine that's gone eerily quiet because the Dwarves and men ended up drilling too far deep, that's a cool idea to me.
However, there's one detail that I'm unsure of, and that's armor. Now, I get the idea behind armor and AC, and I know that the idea is to think of heavy plate as deflecting shots that miss instead of the character dodging...but I just don't like the idea of that, for guns. I'm going to make sure there are minuses for walking around like a Ye Olde Paladin, but for the actual fights themselves, what do you think I should do? I was thinking of not giving them AC bonuses, but giving them damage reduction, and I do like the idea of there being rare, magical/legendary suits of armor that are still useful, but what should I do for the most part?
One of my ideas was to just reflavor heavy armor, so that it's like big heavy outfits, or even bullspit that someone made a kevlar-like substance, what with all the alchemy and magic flying around.
But what do you guys think?
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Very cool idea. I may have to steal it at some point in the future. :p
As for your mechanical concerns, I'd say that the quick and dirty way to go about that would be to use the armour = DR variant rules (I know they existed in Unearthed Arcana for D&D, but even though I just thumbed through all the published variants yesterday I can't remember if their's an official PF version) or perhaps halve armour bonuses against firearms, except from special kevlar-like armours.
Of course, standard PF rules have it so that early firearms go against touch AC in the first range increment while advanced ones use touch AC for the first five range increments. Personally, I think this works well enough.
If you do go with kevlar, I'd suggest using it as a special material used to replace leather.
"I may have to steal it at some point in the future. :p"
Stop right there, criminal scum. You forgot your hat.
(that was a joke, btw. Totally cool with you using such a setting. I'm going to be jealous that I can't play my own setting, honestly.)
Also, all those are good ideas, and yeah, the ranged touch thing makes sense. I didn't really want kevlar in the game, I just didn't want to be unfair to people who loved making heavy-armor characters.
What do you think about the reflavoring ideas? That "plate mail" is replaced by heavy clothing or dusters, and stuff like that?
Hmm. Thank you. I may just take out heavier armors, unless they find one of those aforementioned magical or legendary armors.
It's gonna be interesting if anyone wants to play a Paladin in this game.
Hi. So, I've been thinking of actually running a game once in my life, and I'd like it to be a Pathfinder game. I really like the rules and whatnot. The twist is, I'd want it to be like a fantasy western. The idea of dusty gunslingers dealing with Gnoll dynamite gangs, or investigating a goldmine that's gone eerily quiet because the Dwarves and men ended up drilling too far deep, that's a cool idea to me.
However, there's one detail that I'm unsure of, and that's armor. Now, I get the idea behind armor and AC, and I know that the idea is to think of heavy plate as deflecting shots that miss instead of the character dodging...but I just don't like the idea of that, for guns. I'm going to make sure there are minuses for walking around like a Ye Olde Paladin, but for the actual fights themselves, what do you think I should do? I was thinking of not giving them AC bonuses, but giving them damage reduction, and I do like the idea of there being rare, magical/legendary suits of armor that are still useful, but what should I do for the most part?
One of my ideas was to just reflavor heavy armor, so that it's like big heavy outfits, or even bullspit that someone made a kevlar-like substance, what with all the alchemy and magic flying around.
But what do you guys think?
You need to take a look at Ned Kelly
Is that like Ned Flanders?
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I would reccomend giving
Heavy Armor give DR/-3 against Bullets
Medium Armor DR/-2 against Bullets
Light Armor DR/-1
OR
+1000 gold, -2 Armor Check Penalty gives DR/-3 against Bullets regardless of type. Call it Dwarven ingenuity.
That being said Heavy Armor would still be nerfed.
Does "DR/-1" mean it does one extra point of damage if it's a bullet? Like, does it add to the damage you take?
Is that like Ned Flanders?
Yeh mate, it is probably a good idea to look stuff up before you disrespect it.
Ned is a folk hero to a lot of Australians.
Witness statement from the final shoot out
I fired at the headpiece with my revolver, but the mark was small, and my hand was not quite steady, and I do not know if I hit the thing at all – certainly I did not hit the slit in the top of it that I aimed at But the man in the headpiece took no notice except to take steady aim at me and fire again. I felt the breath of the bullet. I tried another pistol shot, but just aimed at the main bulk of the figure. I heard the ball strike the iron armour, and that was all. There were three or four shooting at the apparition, but with no effect at all, though it was close to us."
I'm going to make sure there are minuses for walking around like a Ye Olde Paladin
There already are.
Within the first range increment of firearms, (usually within 4 squares for pistols, and 6 squares for muskets if memory serves) the attack is rolled against touch AC, basically negating armor.Heavy metal armor would be much more suited for your truly long range characters, since armor is more effective against bullets when their velocity has decreased and the bullet has become soft from air friction. Which is Ironic, because your Holy Gun Paladins are going to be in the back, running up only to dump some blessed whiskey on their hands and slap the bullets out of their buddy's gullet.
Also, think about giving characters who wish to focus in a melee weapon an extra feat to balance out the mass amount of touch AC ranged attacks heading their way.
Cut all basic/early firearms to 1/10 cost, but leave advanced fire arms at 1/4 cost. Even in a western setting you want there to be muskets and flintlocks prevalent as opposed to revolvers, only because you don't want everything (including the players) to instantly die at level 1. Also you don't need multiple bullets loaded at once until people start hitting +6 BAB anyhow. (Even at +21 BAB you only need two double barreled pistols.)
Also consider giving every class a form of Grit and a few hand picked level 1 deeds.
If you do this, go ahead and give gunslingers double the grit to make it fair. You would want ALL of your characters to be able to blast out locks, slide a glass across a table without breaking it by shooting it, Able to pull off a form of defensive feint by taking a bullet the hat instead.
Nothing Combat related, just utilitarian deeds that would help set the setting. You will need to draw the line though when you have six people all huddled in front of a door shooting at a lock repeatedly, when two of them are rogues who could have picked the damn thing in the first place.
I've always wanted to be part of a Western Pathfinder setting ever since I learned Pathfinder had guns. So grab the Ultimate Combat book and study it for tips, because that's going to be the most helpful source.
A cast iton stove can stop most Older rounds. So its not unreasonable to make some Thick (double weight) heavy armor that could stop a bullet.
Yeah, do a little research into early firearms and armor. A metal plate does actually make bullets considerably less lethal.
I've heard it mentioned that the etymology of "bullet proof" involved firing a pistol at a breastplate, with the resulting mark being the "proof". As with all etymology on the internet, take a grain of salt.
In any case, I think PF's rule about firearms making touch attacks out to a certain range actually addresses your concerns. I'd pick up Ultimate Combat and use those rules as-is. A world with tons of firearms will place more emphasis on dex, dodge bonuses, and cover than on wearing armor, and that's exactly what the official rules encourage.
I love that you guys are getting so into this. Thank you for all the advice.
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A cast iton stove can stop most Older rounds. So its not unreasonable to make some Thick (double weight) heavy armor that could stop a bullet.
It doesn't have to be that thick... they only brought Kelly down by shooting him in the legs.
I don't have anything to contribute right now, just dotting this thread because my first instinct when I read the Ultimate Combat Firearms rules was also to try and do a Wild West (or maybe Weird West) game with them.
I also wanted to do a western setting. I think the best way to go about it would be to use the armor rules variant from Ultimate Combat, with some slight tweaks. You could still give certain types of armor a deflection bonus to AC as well as the damage reduction. In the homebrew system I'm coming up with, damage type has a heavier emphasis, so slashing and blunt don't do too much against plate, but piercing bypasses the DR. You could also make it to where a smaller caliber pistol couldn't pierce armor, but a sniper rifle bypasses DR completely. Alchemically treated cloth simulating kevlar is also an awesome idea.
Let me redirect the thread a bit and ask: what are the perceived problems with the firearm rules as presented in Ultimate Combat?
Extremely strong at low levels and stay strong across all levels if done right. That is what can become the problem. Basically 2d6 at a -4 attack penalty vs range touch at 20ft. Can be done at low lvls without additional gunslinger abilities!
When I run a Weird West or Weird War setting I use:
Class Defense System that is B.A.B./2 rounding down (minimum 0).
Wound/Vigour.
Armour as DR.
Y'know what I might do? I might just toss out 'Monks', and give their crazy AC and Touch AC to the Paladin, and say that they just have faith the bullets won't hit them.
Also, I understand people like caster classes, so I want to be able to give that to them, but I want real powerful spells like, divination, or summoning, or all that to have a real occult kind of feel. You know, drawing pentagrams on the floor, lighting candles, invoking powerful demon/god names, etc. Like, I want the traditional Wizard powers that wow a late level party to be a big deal that actually require more than just the caster. I picture for this reason, secret societies would be a 'thing' here.
Oh yeah, I forgot to clue you guys in. I picture that the Western feeling would essentially be more for frontier type areas. And that larger, more urban areas have a slightly more Victorian, Jack the Ripper type of vibe. More sophisticated at a glance, but really, just dirty in a different way from the dusty Western settlements.
Yeah, I'm really starting to feel this idea.
I believe there are Armor as DR rules in Ultimate Combat, if no one has already mentioned that.