Hey all,
My friends and I are trying to finish the Savage Tide AP, and while we're having a good time, one of our party is feeling left out and useless.
The player with a level 16 Wizard (Illusionist/Shadow) PC is feeling frustrated with his perceived inability to contribute to combat. At this stage of the game, we're facing lots of demons, and his save-or-die/save-or-suck illusion spells are routinely failing to succeed against foes' saves/SR. To make matters worse, this player routinely gets killed in major encounters, leading to a great deal of irritation (and a drain on party resources having him raised).
Can I get some suggestions (tactics, magic items, spell selection, etc) to help him succeed at high-level play? By all rights, he should be totally dominating as a spellcaster at this level, but he feels a lot like dead weight.
Some relevant details:
*He does not, as a rule, have any long/medium term buffs on himself (because he's leery of "wasting" spell slots).
*He does not have a supply of emergency scrolls with potent spells - mostly low-level utility stuff (knock, comp. languages, etc).
*He does not have Quicken Spell, as he feels like there are no 2nd-3rd level spells "worth a 6th/7th level slot."
*He used to use debuffs like Slow and buffs like Haste/Blur on the party a lot, but recently we've run into enemies with True Seeing, and the party bard is now the one who typically kicks off Haste.
Any suggestions you could make would be appreciated. I've tried to point him to the class guides, but he's a little resistant to change. I'm hoping that an overwhelming response from people on the boards here will help him change his thinking.
Are you the DM?
Have you checked all of his spells whether or not SR counts on them?
Why are his Caster checks not going through the SR itself?
How high are the save DCs of his spells?
I'd kind of want to see the Wizard's build in greater detail before saying how to "fix" anything.
I am not the DM. The player seems a little chary about posting his build, but we're trying to coax him to share his spell list.
He's not making his caster level checks usually due to a combination of him always targeting the biggest thing on the field (i.e. with the highest SR) and poor rolling. In one recent encounter, we were dealing with an SR around 30 for the main baddy - he has +20 to his CL for SR, so he had about a 50/50 and blew it before getting gibbed.
His Int bonus is somewhere around +8 I think, and I'm pretty sure he has spell focus/gsf: illusion - his top tier spells have dcs in the mid-to-high 20s. Of course, he rarely opens combat with his highest level spells, and often gets killed/disabled in the first 3-4 rounds.
For the past several levels, he has used spells like greater hold monster and phantasmal killer with the Persistent Metamagic feat as his go-to-attacks. Success has been highly limited against the many demons that we have faced with immunity to mind-affecting magic.
He puts all of his favored class points into skills, not hp, and only has a +1 Con bonus, so he's pretty fragile.
Wait, is each and every monster targeting him?
Where are the other players? What the heck are they doing?
The intrinsic part of being a Wizard is having unbelievably high Intelligence, his character should start to realize that his normal mind affecting, whilst normally incredible against humanoid targets, isn't up to snuff against Extra-planar threats. Perhaps it's time to swap to tactics like Banishment and Dismissal to help deal with it.
Can I get some suggestions (tactics, magic items, spell selection, etc) to help him succeed at high-level play? By all rights, he should be totally dominating as a spellcaster at this level, but he feels a lot like dead weight.Some relevant details:
*He does not, as a rule, have any long/medium term buffs on himself (because he's leery of "wasting" spell slots).
*He does not have a supply of emergency scrolls with potent spells - mostly low-level utility stuff (knock, comp. languages, etc).
*He does not have Quicken Spell, as he feels like there are no 2nd-3rd level spells "worth a 6th/7th level slot."
See, this is easy. Tell him to change all of this.
Long-term buffs is key to surviving as a wizard. He's got loads of 2nd level spell slots, and should have a few pearls by now, so after every combat at least invisibility should be up.
And he should REALLY get a lesser rod of quicken - by this time, it shouldn't be an expense at all. There's quite a lot of low-level spells that have SR (no) and no save which can alter how things will work out, I'm thinking of stuff like Pyrotechnics (cover a 20ft radius in smoke that True Sight doesn't help against, anyone touch must make low-DC fort save or get penalties; no SR), Fog Cloud, Create Pit against those that don't fly and so on.
And he can quicken a Haste to free up some of the bard's time.
He should also use Permanency on himself to get a few long-time buffs up permanently (until dispelled). Many are so cheap they're practically a non-cost by now.
Emergency scrolls are a must. He REALLY should have scrolls of at least 4-5 spells per spell level that might be useful.
Really, the wizard sounds really, really stupid for someone who's fought and won hundreds of battles and have an intelligence through the stratosphere.
Rest of the party:
Barb 16 (me): I typically charge the enemy and tie up their front line w/ a reach weapon and come and get me.
Rang2/Cleric 16: Opens with strong buff/summon (to ensure rog has flanking). Uses bow to wail on enemies from back of line (typically neear wiz).
Rog 16: Spends 1-2 rounds getting into flanking position, then uses high AC/damage to tie up secondary targets
Rog 2/Bard 16: Provides buffs and uses high AC to float between places, setting up flanks and ready to offer emergency healing.
Wizard tends to position himself poorly - rarely flying, often visible. Last big encounter, his only def spell was mirror image. Enemy rogues/casters typically can't resist such an inviting target.
I played Savage Tide with a sorcerer.
As the AP is heavily focused on outsiders and other critters with SR, Spell Penetration is to be taken quite soon, a robe of the archimagi (that add another +2 to SR checks) is useful too. There are also really good spells that bypass SR (Glitterdust)
I played almost all the AP with several long term buffs on me. It's never a waste (and as a sorcerer, remember I was limited in my known spells).
My every day buffs :
- Empower False Life
- Mindblank
- Moment of Prescience
- Contingency (Break Enchantment)
plus the short duration spells I cast on myself in combat or exploration situation :
- Shield
- See Invisibility
- Magic Circle / Evil
- Resist Energy (Fire)
And you can also had the Feast of Heroes the cleric cast every morning.
There are some very good spells at level 2-3 : Glitterdust & Slow are the best. I have been in fights where I only used those 2 spells (to save higher slots for latter fights).
I only died once in the entire AP, and was put out of combat 3 or 4 times (I missed all my saves on Feeblemind, and I only needed a 5+ to make it).
Forgot to mention: his opposed schools are evocation/conjuration.
He's not making his caster level checks usually due to a combination of him always targeting the biggest thing on the field (i.e. with the highest SR) and poor rolling. In one recent encounter, we were dealing with an SR around 30 for the main baddy - he has +20 to his CL for SR, so he had about a 50/50 and blew it before getting gibbed.His Int bonus is somewhere around +8 I think, and I'm pretty sure he has spell focus/gsf: illusion - his top tier spells have dcs in the mid-to-high 20s. Of course, he rarely opens combat with his highest level spells, and often gets killed/disabled in the first 3-4 rounds.
For the past several levels, he has used spells like greater hold monster and phantasmal killer with the Persistent Metamagic feat as his go-to-attacks. Success has been highly limited against the many demons that we have faced with immunity to mind-affecting magic.
He's a wizard; he should have knowledge skills. He should know most of what enemies are immune to mind-affecting magic, and adjust tactics. A wizard does not play as a sorcerer - you don't just have your single spell that you excell at, the wizards main strength is being able to adjust.
I don't know his opposed schools, but abjurations and conjurations are often useful against outsiders. And he really shouldn't use single-target SoS's if there's more than one enemy on the battlefield; if his single-target has 50% chance to work, something hitting 3 targets has 87.5% chance to work against at least one.
And at 16th level, he should at least be able to open up with a combo of 7th level spell + (rod)quickened 3rd level spell. I can understand not wanting to spend his 8th level slots for nothing, but he should have enough 7th level to open up with them - if they work, the fight might be over, if not, he can still use 5th and 6th level slots instead.
Even if he doesn't have Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, stuff like Persistant Icy Prison, Waves of Exhaustion, Banishment, and Scouring Wind are very effective.
A rod of Quicken can help the wizard get up the exact right buff against that opponent to survive better.
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Wait, he's 16th level and _rarely flying_? How did he even survive till that point? By 16th level he should fly every waking hour of the day! It's _one_ fifth level slot!
I can't imagine how he's survived so far. Was he created at level one and leveled up until this, or did he jump in later?
Stringburka has pretty much summed it up.
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Programmed Image
"I can use it as a quickened Major Image with no concentration (example, "When I say X, an illusionary wall of iron appears 10 feet in front of me"). As far as I can see, you can use this in "off-time" as often as you want, and the programmed images are all ready for use at your command permanently until used. If you like illusions, this is going to be a must have."
-Treantmonk
PS conjuration BAD school... maybe he take the feat to enlmitate that next level... ;/
Wait, he took Conjuration as an Opposed School?
Adding that to the fact that he's rarely flying, I am not sure whether to call him crazy, or not good at playing a Wizard.
Wait, he's 16th level and _rarely flying_? How did he even survive till that point? By 16th level he should fly every waking hour of the day! It's _one_ fifth level slot!
I can't imagine how he's survived so far. Was he created at level one and leveled up until this, or did he jump in later?
He's been with us since level 1, believe it or not. Though he was a lot more effective early on when we fought lots of humanoids and beasts. Around 9th-11th, he switched to being a buffer/debuffer, and that actually worked pretty well. He used to fly a lot more back then, too - not entirely sure why he stopped (though we have been in confined spaces a lot, recently).
From level 12 on, though, he's been getting less and less effective. Honestly, he's not particularly well-suited to the complexity of D&D combat - he tends to get fixated on elaborate combos and "tricks" instead of thinking of the big picture. And playing high-level casters is complicated...
Hence, the need for this thread. Boy needs some advice, bad.
Wait, he took Conjuration as an Opposed School?
Adding that to the fact that he's rarely flying, I am not sure whether to call him crazy, or not good at playing a Wizard.
Well, he was trying for a thematic character, so we didn't raise any objections at the time.
We're about to level to 17, so I think I'm definitely going to have to suggest opposition research to him.
That would make life easier for him, without a doubt.
Sounds like he's falling into "wizard paralysis" - I can do everything, so anything I can do must be worthy of all the awesome I can *potentially* accomplish...
Does this guy spend the first couple rounds buffing himself/the party and trying to debuff the enemy, then getting murdered? *That's* why Quicken Spell is awesome - a 2nd level spell isn't worth a 6th level slot, but getting to cast it right bloody now while you *also* cast something else *is*.
I suggest he sits down and works out what all-day buffs he wants to cast on himself every day. Put them on a list, give them to the GM, figure them into his character sheet, cross them off his spells per day. Done. Non-negotiable. You can really up your utility and survivability that way.
He should, in-character and out-of-character, talk to the rest of the party and figure out spells he could prepare that would synergise well with the others' combat style. He definitely shouldn't be preparing a spell that the party bard knows.
He should rummage through his "attack" spells and figure out which allow saves, which allow SR, and which allow neither. And then he should prepare some of all three types. If he wants to focus on saves, he should take Spell Focus feats. To focus on SR, take Spell Penetration. To be utterly awesome, he should take Spell Perfection on his favourite (widely applicable!) spell.
And as said, even though few 2nd level spells might be worth putting into 6th level slots, a lesser rod of quicken is just 17500 gold. At this level, you could grab two or three! And since you don't have to prepare it beforehand, you don't have to know if you want to cast a quickened Fly on the rogue or a quickened Haste because the bard's down - just prepare them as normal and rod'em'up.
Sounds like he's falling into "wizard paralysis" - I can do everything, so anything I can do must be worthy of all the awesome I can *potentially* accomplish...
Does this guy spend the first couple rounds buffing himself/the party and trying to debuff the enemy, then getting murdered? *That's* why Quicken Spell is awesome - a 2nd level spell isn't worth a 6th level slot, but getting to cast it right bloody now while you *also* cast something else *is*.
I suggest he sits down and works out what all-day buffs he wants to cast on himself every day. Put them on a list, give them to the GM, figure them into his character sheet, cross them off his spells per day. Done. Non-negotiable. You can really up your utility and survivability that way.
He should, in-character and out-of-character, talk to the rest of the party and figure out spells he could prepare that would synergise well with the others' combat style. He definitely shouldn't be preparing a spell that the party bard knows.
He should rummage through his "attack" spells and figure out which allow saves, which allow SR, and which allow neither. And then he should prepare some of all three types. If he wants to focus on saves, he should take Spell Focus feats. To focus on SR, take Spell Penetration. To be utterly awesome, he should take Spell Perfection on his favourite (widely applicable!) spell.
I'd say that summing this up would equate to "the Wizard using that mighty Intellect of his", which would also actually be good for RP.
I'd say that summing this up would equate to "the Wizard using that mighty Intellect of his", which would also actually be good for RP.
I was trying not to say "Play the wizard intelligently." :) But basically this, yes.
What kind of equipment does he have? A good Staff or some Metamagic Rods can really help. Actually, double on the Metamagic Rods. Get him a Lesser Rod of Quicken and a rod of Piercing. They did wonders for our wizard in Serpent Skull.
Mindblank is a great way to foil True Seeing. Then he can cast quickened defense spells on himself like mirror image and not have to worry about getting hit as much. That should help him out quite a bit I imagine.
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Long-term buffs is key to surviving as a wizard. He's got loads of 2nd level spell slots, and should have a few pearls by now, so after every combat at least invisibility should be up.
High rate of demons with True Sight has already been stated. Invisibility won't work unless backed with Mind Blank.
High rate of demons with True Sight has already been stated. Invisibility won't work unless backed with Mind Blank.Long-term buffs is key to surviving as a wizard. He's got loads of 2nd level spell slots, and should have a few pearls by now, so after every combat at least invisibility should be up.
I understood it as "high rate" - not 100%. Even if three of four enemies have true sight (which is VERY high - not that many demons have true sight) that means for a not-important-at-all slot you get 25% chance to be more or less immune until you cast an offensive spell. So if your next encounter happens to be a half-dozen Hezrous (CR 16 encounter), you can hang back and buff. It's far less effective since apparently the wizard took conjuration as an opposition school - otherwise, summon monster + invisibility can be a wonderful way to disable opponents. SM VII allows summoning 1d4+1 Babaus, getting all to try to counterspell all those irritating Chaos Hammers and Blasphemys of hezrous. Or any other conjuration, really.
Invisibility loses a lot of usage if you're bad at conjuration, but whatever. I'd still keep invisibility up between fights - the cost is low, a lesser rod of extend magic costs only like 3k and will let it last for over half an hour.
EDIT: Though I must say, if I as a DM knew that a campaign would be heavily about demons with true sight, I would warn someone wanting to play an illusionist, at least slightly hinting at it so they can broaden their repertoire.
I suggest getting together with your DM for a quick chat at some point.
"Hey we've noticed Bob is dying all the time, so I would like to talk about how we might better avoid that happening..."
Your DM - having access to DMly information as he does - is way better suited than a bunch of random message board posters to make suggestions, and there is the added bonus that half his suggestions probably won't contradict the other half as message board suggestions are wont to do :p
Advice coming from him may be more likely to be actually followed than advice from a bunch of random message board posters, also.
EDIT: Though I must say, if I as a DM knew that a campaign would be heavily about demons with true sight, I would warn someone wanting to play an illusionist, at least slightly hinting at it so they can broaden their repertoire.
We knew this AP would have a lot of demons, and it became increasingly clear as we got into higher levels that they were the primary antagonists (we are essentially challenging Demogorgon, after all). For the past 2-3 levels, we've actually been in the Abyss itself.
Spell resistance+ save buffs+ done be in melee ever.
Sounds like he's falling into "wizard paralysis" - I can do everything, so anything I can do must be worthy of all the awesome I can *potentially* accomplish...
Does this guy spend the first couple rounds buffing himself/the party and trying to debuff the enemy, then getting murdered? *That's* why Quicken Spell is awesome - a 2nd level spell isn't worth a 6th level slot, but getting to cast it right bloody now while you *also* cast something else *is*.
Yeah, it's pretty much this. I've tried convincing him on the quicken route, but he's been resistant so far. Hopefully he'll see the light.
As he is an illusionist and wants to stay that route it sounds like, Shadow Conjuration and Evocation can somewhat get round how he has gimped himself. Also they will work on the demons as they are not mind affecting though you still have to worry about Spell resistance in some of the cases depending upon the spell you are duplicating.
Also start loading up on items the demons hate and use them in the casting of banishment to start helping with those DC's and caster level checks.
I just tried suggesting Moment of Prescience as a spell for his spellbook, and was informed that:
"I'm pretty sure that burning one of my 3 or 4 8th level spell slots to get a bonus to a single roll is not cost effective."
Oh well. I tried.
I just tried suggesting Moment of Prescience as a spell for his spellbook, and was informed that:
"I'm pretty sure that burning one of my 3 or 4 8th level spell slots to get a bonus to a single roll is not cost effective."
Oh well. I tried.
So he hates dying all the time and being ineffective, but shoots you down every time you try to help him up his game a bit mechanically?
It may be time to stop caring that he's upset.
Edit: Also, again he's missing the point. It's about getting that huge bonus exactly when you most need and want it.
Has anyone ever explained action economy or situational usefulness to this guy?
I just tried suggesting Moment of Prescience as a spell for his spellbook, and was informed that:
"I'm pretty sure that burning one of my 3 or 4 8th level spell slots to get a bonus to a single roll is not cost effective."
Oh well. I tried.
So he hates dying all the time and being ineffective, but shoots you down every time you try to help him up his game a bit mechanically?
It may be time to stop caring that he's upset.
This. ^^
"Dr. It'e hurts when I do this."
"so don't do that."
"but I like to, what else?"
*blank stare*
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All i have to say is let him die. Personally i take great hatred for save does nothing spells. I know i gonna get a lot of hate for that since it seems like evey1 and there mother worships them but in all honesty they suck hard. To be cost effective with ur spells is to invest in spells that always do some thing even on a save and there is a lot of them to chose from. Personally im a ray spell and buffer type when it comes to my spells since touch ac is usually the worst of the 3 against monsters.
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How to fix the problem - stop resurrecting him when he dies. Maybe one of those demons teleports away with his body - and no one has a True Resurrection up their sleeve.
It's becoming apparent (in this thread) he really doesn't have a good grasp of the class itself, action economy, situational usefulness, the utility and concepts behind using different kinds of spells, etc, etc, etc. He has invested heavily in a "character concept" that doesn't scale well (or work) given the adventure and the primary opponents. It might have been good at earlier levels, but without some serious adjustments, just isn't cutting it now.
Someone take Leadership and grab a NPC spellcaster cohort built to deal with the threats the party is facing - and relegate your friend to playing a meat shield for his next character...
Forgot to mention: his opposed schools are evocation/conjuration.
And there in lies his key inability to mess with enemies. Very little damage spells and very little in the way of crowd control. Seems to me like this guy, given the party make out, should be rerolling a tank of some sort haha.