Hey all, was looking for any feats/class features/archetypes that allow you to either prevent dying, take less damage while in negatives, or increase the effective con score of a player for reaching death.
So far all I can find besides diehard and orcish ferocity is is
Ferocious Tenacity and Fight On
Hey all, was looking for any feats/class features/archetypes that allow you to either prevent dying, take less damage while in negatives, or increase the effective con score of a player for reaching death.
So far all I can find besides diehard and orcish ferocity is is
Ferocious Tenacity and Fight On
Samurai is pretty much designed just for this with their resolve feature, not to mention as they level up their challenge it takes care of that too. And of course there is Last Stand, but I tend not to count level 20's. All in all I think you're looking for a Samurai.
Hey all, was looking for any feats/class features/archetypes that allow you to either prevent dying, take less damage while in negatives, or increase the effective con score of a player for reaching death.
So far all I can find besides diehard and orcish ferocity is is
Ferocious Tenacity and Fight On
The invulnerable rager archetype for barbarian is the ultimate hard-to-kill character, especially if you focus on rage powers like Guarded Life + Greater, Flesh Wound etc, and also take the Raging Vitality feat.
Humans also have the Heart of the Wilderness alternate racial trait, and orcs/half-orcs have the Ferocious Resolve feat.
There might be more, but those are the ones that I can remember of the top of my mind.
- The Lingering Spirit discovery. But you need to be a fourth level Alchemist for that.
- More hitpoints. An extra hitpoint for taking your favored class, and the Toughness feat will stave off dying too.
- The Heart of the Wilderness alternative Human trait.
you could i vent a new condition when you are at -hp
each thing you do roll 2 d20 and take the worse value or somesuch?
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Take first level in Unbreakable Fighter archetype for Endurance and Diehard as bonus feats. Grab 4th level in Alchemist for the afore mentioned Lingering Spirit. Then take Invulnerable Rager Barbarian for the rest of the levels picking up all of the Deathless line of feats as well as those previously mentioned in this thread (Raging Vitality, Ferocious Tenacity, Fight On, Toughness, etc.).
Being an [urll=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-orc]Orc[/url] Fighter and taking the Favored Class alternative works too...
Fighter: Add +2 to the Fighter's Constitution score for the purpose of determining when he dies from negative hit points.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Hey all, was looking for any feats/class features/archetypes that allow you to either prevent dying,
There's actually a nifty little two-feat combo that does exactly this. Amazingly, both feats are in the Core Rulebook and I think most GMs allow both (and they're both PFS-legal, if that's an issue).
Improved Initiative + Power Attack
Thanks all for the feats/class combos (except jiggy, useless). Was mostly curious to see what kind of combo provided the most longevity via hp and it seems that orc fighter with a barb dip brings in the top spot by the level I am looking at (5th). I would like to be able to have a character that has the hp to not care about AC, and this guy seems to fit the bill.
Orc fighter 4/Barb 1(unless there is another way to get rage?)
Take ferocious action and then whichever feats, should end up netting me
17con+1 level stat+2 belt +4 rage= 26con +2"con"/lvl for dying purposes= -34 before the character drops at level 5, with an average hp of 72 while raging.
FYI - I could easily beat that with an Alchemist with either a dip of Fighter or Barbarian.
FYI - I could easily beat that with an Alchemist with either a dip of Fighter or Barbarian.
I know that lingering spirit will have a few more points until i get more fighter levels, but the Orc favored class scales quite nicely. If there is something I am missing feel free to post details
Use both. Or better yet, all 3. Be an Orc. And as I said before:
Take first level in Unbreakable Fighter archetype for Endurance and Diehard as bonus feats. Grab 4th level in Alchemist for the afore mentioned Lingering Spirit. Then take Invulnerable Rager Barbarian for the rest of the levels picking up all of the Deathless line of feats as well as those previously mentioned in this thread (Raging Vitality, Ferocious Tenacity, Fight On, Toughness, etc.).
Honestly, if your goal (and the character's goal) is simply to survive at negative hit points then Lingering Spirit is a must have. Every other ability pales in comparison to it's usefulness in this regard. But that isn't to say that you can't get those other abilities as well. In fact, grab as many of them as you can even if that means going to multiple sources. If that were the character's goal then I'm sure he wouldn't stop just because "I don't want to take levels in that class". The character doesn't know what classes are.
...for the HP increase and whatnot, first level should be Barbarian, not fighter. why give up the extra 2 HP for no reason? an n top of that, rage out the gate at 1st level. better than the fighter.
Be forewarned though, negative hit points are there for PC survival. They give you a buffer between being a combat threat and death. Many enemies stop attacking you once you drop. If you accomplish what you seek in this thread, they will not stop until you are dead. It's an "all in" gamble.
Good luck.
Play a half orc invulnerable rager, with guarded life, and the feat ferocious tenacity. You are going to be very hard to put down.
I think that Petty Alchemy is not aware of the way Diehard and the Deathless feats work. ...they make you MORE of a threat when at negative hit points, not less. Its sorta a sweet spot if you will.
...if they crit on you without Diehard and Deathless you WOULD be dead. With those feats you are not only NOT DEAD but you are fighting STRONGER than you were before. Take a look at how the Deathless feats work.
If you want to see how this works from the Alchemist perspective I'd take a look at this thread. That character isn't dead until -30 and that is pre-rage, item or spell buffs. And that is at level 5. And it just keeps getting beter after that. After Grand Mutagen I figure you are going to have to do over 600 damage to him before you can put him down and out.
If going Deathless I would consider the feat Tenacious Survivor. That way when you do die (and you will) at least you won't stay dead for too long. At lower levels it gives you the ability to be brought back from the dead. At higher levels it saves you money (6,000gp) when it comes time to be brought back from the dead.
- Gauss
The setup I played with was of Orc Barb 1 Fighter 4 Alchemist (Beastmorph/Vivisectionist)4
I did 18 con +2 from level +4 from belt +4 from rage +4 from mutagen gave the character a con of 32 while raging and mutated. With toughness, lingering spirit, ferocious action, and 4 levels of favored class fighter(+8 effective con for dying).
this makes a character that has an average HP of 162 at 9th level while raging, with the ability to go down to -50 before dying, and is still capable of taking his full actions while dying without needing diehard and endurance.
I looked at the deathless feats and while they are cool for when you go into negatives the amount of feats they take would make the character worse off than if I just took stuff like weapon focus, power attack, weapon spec, and imp. crit, and grudge fighter(+1 hit/dmg when someone swings at you).
Deathless Initiate is the best of the bunch. After that, I agree with Mathhias; their usefulness declines. Matthias has a good starting build for the character. Where you take it after level 9 leaves some interesting choices.
Something to consider.
Fighter: Add +2 to the fighter’s Constitution score for
the purpose of determining when he dies from negative
hit points.
I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post.
My point is, Lune, that fighting at negatives attracts attention to you that you would otherwise stop getting when your character falls to negatives.
Most combatants will stop attacking someone who's on death's door but KO'd, focusing on the active remaining threats.
If you're alone, fighting against take-no-prisoners enemies, then yes, fighting at negatives increases your chance for survival. Even if you aren't, perhaps the damage you can do with one more round of battle will turn the tide.
But it's very likely that if they get another round, they will attack you and they're going to turn you into a blood stain that will require attention from Raise Dead. You've given them no alternative, they can't ignore you.
Whereas if you are KO'd and they move on to attack your party (people with HP still to spare), you're only going to need a cure spell to get back to the adventure after combat is over.
That's the benefit to NOT being a threat in the negatives.
I hope I've made the point I was originally trying to make more clear.
Petty Alchemy: If someone is going for the whole 'fighting in the negatives' build and that someone is also a half-orc or orc then Raise Dead will not necessarily be required. That is what Tenacious Survivor is for.
Half-Orc Player: I am the orc that fights until actually dead! FEAR ME!
BBEG: I beat the crap out of you and kill you.
Half-Orc Player: *waits for group to finish off BBEG*
Cleric: Heals the Half-Orc back from being dead with simple cure spells.
Half-Orc Player: Thanks! Now to just get rid of that 1 negative level.
Honestly? Ill happily take that build. So what if I die temporarily? 1000gp and Im good to go.
Now, will this character do as much damage per round as other martial characters? Probably not. A number of feats went into making this guy last longer in a fight and that will detract from other things such as damage. However, itll be nice for the cleric not to have to heal this guy until AFTER the fight is over knowing all the while that death for this guy isnt that big a deal.
- Gauss
P.S. All of the above references to dying and death are by damage as effects that do not do damage are not relevant to this conversation.
Petty Alchemy: I disagree with you for a number of reasons. Firstly, for the meta reason. How is it that the enemies know that you are at negatives anyway? Are they wasting a turn to use a heal check to diagnose how wounded you are? Are they running some kind of spell that allows them to know your status? Or are you asserting that they can tell how wounded you are by looking at your wounds?
If it is the latter then I wholeheartedly disagree. Obviously if your wounds SHOULD be enough to put you down but they aren't then they are wrong about how wounded you actually are or you can take far more of a beating than they thought you could. But honestly, if the enemies are reacting to the out of game knowledge that the DM has of your hit points then this is meta-gaming (read: wrong).
Secondly, with the Deathless line of feats you actually become MORE powerful when you are at negative hit points not less. That is how they work. Generally speaking if someone thought they pumped enough damage into you that you should go down and not only did you not go down but now you are far more angry and look like you want to rip their arms off and shove them down their throat then I think the correct (RP) response would be to turn tail and run. Not see how close they can get to the angry bleeding guy.
And since I'm talking about the mechanics of a build like this let me point out that there are a number of things that this type of character can do to STAY in (or near) the negatives. Many of these things have been mentioned here but amoung them are Mutagen, Rage, Spontaneous Healing, Ferocious Tenacity, Fight On, Guarded Life, Flesh Wound, Raging Vitality and just generally increasing your Con score. When you negative hit points can go to -50 isn't isn't to hard to remain in that sweet spot for a long time and become increasingly effective.
For this type of character it is pretty difficult to "turn them into a blood stain that will require attention from Raise Dead". The whole point of this character is to not only remain a threat while in the negatives but be MORE of a threat while in the negatives.
And lastly, coming to a thread where someone is asking how to make a character who doesn't die and can remain a threat well into the negatives and saying that it might be better to become a nonthreat while dead isn't exactly helpful to accomplishing the OP's goal. I'm not saying you were being deliberately unhelpful, but well... it is what it is, right?
And besides that I think this character would think anyone who wants to just lie there and die like a wus when they could be up and fighting and still contributing to the well being of their allies and contributing to the battle isn't really worthy of his time. ;) This kind of character doesn't look at negative hit points as a "buffer". They look at it as "more time to bash face". Why sleep it off much less walk it off when you could be taking out your anger on their flesh?
Gauss: I am the Orc that fights until well after he should have already been dead > I am the Orc that fights until actually dead.
BUT... there is no reason you can't do both. Just add Tenacious Survivor to the list of suggestions. :)
Lune, I wasn't commenting on the other aspects of the build. I like it. I was merely pointing out how Tenacious Survivor works for the benefit of Petty Alchemy.
Also, I think Petty Alchemy isnt metagaming when he is talking about you being in negatives. He is talking about you staying standing in the negatives. Normally: PC drops into negatives and goes unconcious. Now PC is ignored because there are other PCs who are a threat.
Normally, being concious in the negatives would be a bad thing. The bad guy would keep pounding away until you are dead. However, in the case of someone with this build (Deathless/Tenacious Survior/etc) it can be beneficial and if you die it really doesn't matter as much.
- Gauss
True, I wasn't aware of Tenacious Survivor, being a fairly new feat. It looks like it essentially restores the negative HP and down but not dead buffer than you lose with Diehard.
Lune: Enemies can tell that you are very wounded. If you were a normal character that gets KO'd when very wounded, then they would have no reason to keep fighting you.
If you keep fighting while very wounded, then they'll keep hitting you until you go down. And when you go down, you go down for real (unless you have Tenacious Survivor!)
I understand that you can take a bunch of feats to do more damage while negative, but I think there is no way to make you understand the benefits of having a buffer of HP for which the enemies will ignore you, because you cease being a threat without actually dying. Tenacious Survivor restores that buffer, but no one had mentioned it prior to my first post, so I had no idea it was there.
I was at no point telling the OP not to pursue the path he chose, I was alerting him to the pitfalls/drawbacks of it. Is it helpful to know of potential weaknesses in a build? I think so.
I just don't know how to explain it in a way that you'll understand though, so I'm done trying after this post. Gauss understood what I was saying. No hard feelings though.
Petty Alchemy: It does not restore any hp. What it does is allows you to be brought back to life if you died from damage with just cure spells. Only penalty for your 'near death experience' is a permanent negative level (ie: 1000gp).
Benefit: When you are killed by hit point damage, your soul lingers in your body for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution bonus. You are still dead, but a creature can make a DC 10 Heal check as a standard action to realize that you can still be saved. You can be healed by magic as if you were alive. If you are healed enough hit points that you would no longer be dead, you are alive again, but you gain one permanent negative level.
In summary: It drops the price of death from 5000gp (raise dead) +2000gp (two restorations) +1week (can only remove 1 permanent negative level per week) down to 1000gp (restoration).
- Gauss
I'm aware, perhaps I should've typed it as " It looks like it essentially restores the negative-HP-and-down-but-not-dead-buffer than you lose with Diehard."
I was referring to it restoring the buffer between being alive and fighting, and in the afterlife.
There is no drawback to it. Sorry, I totally disagree. It gives you an advantage that you otherwise would not have. You can continue to fight during more of your fightingable HP.
Look if you really wanted NPCs to ignore you then why not just fall down after getting hit while at negative HP? They would think your dead right? Or do NPCs have some kind of sixth sense that allows them to know when your faking it too?
I do not subscribe to the belief that NPCs can see the health bar hover over your character's head. That does not exist in the rules. I enjoy playing WoW. I enjoy playing Pathfinder. I have no desire to mix the two in this fashion. Lucky for me I don't have to because NPCs can not see your character's health bar. That IS metagaming.
I already tried this with a Barb19/Unbreakable1.
I wonder how high into the negatives we can get him? I tried to Maximise his DR to make him even harder to kill.
Or is the fighter/barb/alchemist just heaps better?
bump
I already tried this with a Barb19/Unbreakable1.
I wonder how high into the negatives we can get him? I tried to Maximise his DR to make him even harder to kill.
Or is the fighter/barb/alchemist just heaps better?
I almost went straight orc warrior with a dip in barb for the favored class +2 effective con, it scales really nicely. However, the alchemist has mutagens (+4 con -2 cha, lasts 40 minutes per go),the +10 effective con for dying discovery (10 for 4 levels vs the 8 for 4 levels of fighter), and you get lesser restoration to boot if you can muster a 12 int which means more combats with rage.
Most likely the extra levels from 10-20 would be straight fighter for the favored bonus, but that leaves open a lot of options for feat builds.I will try to work on and post a build here later
Here ya go:
Name: War Masta' Trollblood
Build: Barbarian 1 Fighter 15 Vivisectionist/Beastmorph Alchemist 4
Race: Orc (Dayrunner)
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Theme: Unkillable HP machine
Ability Scores: 20 point buy
STR: 18
DEX: 10
CON: 18 (4 points to CON 22)
INT: 8
WIS: 10
CHA: 5 (1 point to CHA 6)
Darkvision 60ft.
Ferocity
Skill points = 3/lvl (Barb/Alchy) or 1/lvl (FTR)
Favored bonus: +2 Effective CON for the purposes of negative HP and dying (FTR)
Traits:
Strong Will (+1 to will saves)
Berserker of the Society (+3 rage rounds/day)
1:Barbarian: Rage, Fast movement, Power attack
2:Fighter: Toughness
3:Fighter: Ferocious Action, Wep. Focus (Falchion), Bravery 1
4:Fighter: Armor Training 1
5:Fighter: Raging Vitality, Ferocious Tenacity
6:Alchemist: Alchemy, Sneak attack +1d6, Brew Potion, Mutagen, Throw anything
7:Alchemist: Discovery(Healing hands),Poison resistance +2,Poison use, Iron Will
8:Alchemist: Sneak attack 2d6, Beastmorph Mutagen (Scent?)
9:Alchemist: Discovery (Lingering Spirit), Improved critical
10:Fighter: Weapon Training 1(Blades, Heavy)
11:Fighter: Weapon specialization (Falchion), Resilient Brute, Bravery 2
12:Fighter: Armor training 2
13:Fighter: Greater weapon spec.(Falchion),Greater Wep. focus (Falchion)
14:Fighter: Weapon training 2(Blades, Heavy/Natural)
15:Fighter: Raging Brutality, Improved Iron Will, Bravery 3
16:Fighter: Armor Training 3
17:Fighter: Critical Focus, Grudge fighter
18:Fighter:Weapon Training 3(Blades, Heavy/Natural/Thrown)
19:Fighter: Sickening Critical, Stunning Assault, Bravery 4
20:Fighter: Armor Training 4
With a 18 base CON, Belt of perfection +6, Rage +4, Raging Vitality +2, Mutagen +4, Levels +4, Dying "CON" favored bonus +30, Dying "CON" bonus from lingering spirit +10 = 38 actual CON while raging and juiced (free action+standard action) at level 20 would give this fellow an average of 417.5 hp at 20th level, with the ability to go to -78 before dying. this gives him an effective HP of 494.5 which puts him fairly close to the Tarrasque in terms of staying power, with saves of +27/+16/+13(+17vs. fear, +1 re-roll) after items.
Would be using a +4 int/wis headband to be able to use 2nd level extracts and bolster the will save
This build ekes out another ~30 hp over a straight barb build with a fighter dip like the one STR fighter linked, and could be modified for more survivability. Ones I toyed with were Going Unbreakable fighter for the Heroic feat line(saves), or taking vestigial arm and going Thunderstriker for a 2-hander/buckler combo(AC).
Looks good. I'll have a play with the build and see what it's attack and skills can do.
IF we can somehow get a good Will save then 2 levels of WILD RAGER would likely be better.
Effectively unlimited rage rounds and Wild fighting is ANOTHERfreenattack.
Hmmm.
Here ya go:
** spoiler omitted **... This build ekes out another ~30 hp over a straight barb build with a fighter dip like the one STR Ranger linked, and could be modified for more survivability. Ones I toyed with were Going Unbreakable fighter for the Heroic feat line(saves), or taking vestigial arm and going Thunderstriker for a 2-hander/buckler combo(AC).
Busy work day so still crunching, BUUUT I did notice the Raw HP difference doesn't take my Barbarian builds 17/- dr OR the Greater Guarded Life power which can turn your char level worth of damage to non-lethal.
Consider eating one full attack, the DR alone can negate 17 damage PER HIT you take. That would very quickly outpace the REAL hp difference advantage the Alchemist multiclass build has.
Actually I just realized something.
Non- leathal damage is NON-LEATHAL.
Say you are a the 19Barb/1Fighter I built. He has greater guarded life.
That means ANY HIT you take when in the negatives has 38 points of damage converted to NON-leathal.
Say he is at -15 and at -30 leathal he dies.
He is hit for 60 damage. 38 points are turned to nonleathal.
So he takes 22 leathal and 38 non- leathal.
The barb has DR17/- when fighting defensively (Improved Stalwart+class DR) and DR17 vs non leathal.
So he only takes 22-17= 5leathal and 21 non leathal.
This would put him at -20 leathal and -41non-leathal.
Non leathal has hit it's threashold but it doesn't matter since non- leathal doesn't kill you.
This can repeat for two more 60 point hits.
The dr means he takes about 5 damage per round.
Since with Con+Belt+Gtr Rage he has a con mod of +8 when the damage IS enough to kill him he can use ferocious tenacity to negate all damage bar 1hp.
So all he needs is the ability to regain 1 hp per round to keep him standing- a ring of regeneration or a simple casting of Gtr Infernal Healing renders him UNKILLABLE.
Unless there is something I missed I do not think that would work.
"When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious".
/Bolded mine.
The way I read this is if you were at negatives nonlethal damage equal to your current negative HP remaining (so if i was at -20 with a total capacity of -40, 20 points would do it) would knock you unconscious.
So yea you wouldn't die but your combat effectiveness in negatives would be minimal.