Which comes first, vulnerability or resistance?

[Damon Griffin]

So, white dragon has vulnerability to fire, but employs a spell to get energy resistance (fire) 20.

Fire attack hits dragon for 19 points. Is that 19 - 20 = (fully blocked * 1.5) = 0 hit points taken, or (19 * 1.5) = 29 - 20 = 9 hit points taken?

[Malfus]

I always run vulnerability first. But I am curious as to whether or not there is a ruling on it :P

[Bobson]

Resistance gets applied first (it reduces damage dealt), then vulnerability (it increases damage taken). DR works the same way.

[Ravingdork]

Bobson is right. It's been that way since v3.5 D&D. I've seen nothing to change it.

[Damon Griffin]

Bobson wrote:

Resistance gets applied first (it reduces damage dealt), then vulnerability (it increases damage taken). DR works the same way.

Citation?

[Blue Star]

...My enemy, the random order of operation, strikes again. One day, I will strike him down, and create a standard order of operation for all to use, but until then, the eternal struggle carries on.

[cwslyclgh]

Generally such cases should be applied in the order that is more advantageous to the target (which would be resistance first, then vulnerability).

[Shfish]

The same thing goes for DR..if you somehow are able to get bonus damage and they have DR it gets to apply it's DR before damage. Honestly it makes sense for protection to apply first...it's a barrier of sorts that stops it from ever hitting you so there fore your vulnerability never kicks in.

[wraithstrike]

The damage taken up by the resistance never got to you so it can be multiplied. Whatever gets past it though is what you have to deal with.

[Karuth]

Protective abilities are like ogers... I mean onions. They have layers.

1) The inner most shell are the natural abilties.
A dragon's skin for example.

2) Then comes the thing that lies close to the body.
Clothes and armor.

3) Finally come the spells.
They surround you like a bubble. Now here it is a bit difficult to determine which comes first, but I usually imagine it like this: The most recently cast spell is the most outer layer.
However some spells mention specific cases of overlap (Such as Resist Energy and Protection from Energy).

So an incomming spell would have to punch through the spells first, then the armor and then the body itself. And since vulnerability comes from the creature's body it would apply last.

At least that's how we handle it :)

[Damon Griffin]

Lots of good rational opinions here -- wraithstrike's seems admirably succinct to me -- but so far no rules citation. I want to make sure this isn't already spelled out somewhere before I make a decision on handling it in my game.

This past weekend I went with applying vulnerability first because the party was having a really hard time with the white dragon they were up against. Having even a little fire damage get through helped.

[leo1925]

Very interesting question, i would love for a rule citatation to that.
And i have another question: incorporeal creature who also has DR, what applies first DR or half damage from incorporeal status?

[Malfus]

At least look it up on the interwebz : /

From the 3.5 FAQ:
"If a monster has resistance and vulnerability to the
same kind of damage (such as fire), which effect is applied
first? [...]

If the creature has both resistance and vulnerability to the
same kind of damage, apply the resistance (which reduces the
damage dealt by the effect) before applying the vulnerability
(which increases the damage taken by the creature). For
example, imagine our frost giant wore a ring of minor fire
resistance (granting resistance to fire 10). If the save failed, the
frost giant would take 37 points of fire damage: 35 (fireball) –
10 (resistance to fire 10) = 25, plus one-half of 25 (12.5,
rounded down to 12). If the save succeeded, the frost giant
would take only 10 points of damage: 17 (half damage from the
fireball, rounded down) – 10 (resistance to fire 10) = 7, plus
one-half of 7 (3.5, rounded down to 3).
As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate
an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or
special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s
most beneficial to the creature. In the case of damage, this
typically means applying any damage-reducing effects first,
before applying any effects that would increase damage."

[Brennan Ashby]

The initial post is specifically relating to the Resist Energy spell, not natural resistance.

A fireball spell is cast. The caster rolls 20 for damage. The white dragon saves, reducing the damage to 10.

Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Vulnerabilties (Ex or Su): A creature with vulnerabilities takes half again as much damage (+50%) from a specific energy type, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed or if the save is a success or failure. Creatures with a vulnerability that is not an energy type instead take a –4 penalty on saves against spells and effects that cause or use the listed vulnerability (such as spells with the light descriptor). Some creatures might suffer additional effects, as noted in their descriptions.

Even though the white dragon saved, it still takes +50% damage. The fire damage that would be applied to the white dragon's hit points is instead 15 due to his vulnerability.

However, since your white dragon has cast the Resist Energy spell...

Resist Energy wrote:

The subject gains resist energy 10 against the energy type chosen, meaning that each time the creature is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature's hit points.

...the 15 fire damage is reduced by 10, totaling 5 fire damage taken. 5 fire damage is applied to white dragon's current hit points.

-------------------------------------------------

Natural monster resistance reads in a similar way...

Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Resistance (Ex): A creature with this special quality ignores some damage of the indicated type each time it takes damage of that kind (commonly acid, cold, electricity, or fire). The entry indicates the amount and type of damage ignored.

... so 'damage taken' is the same thing as "applied to creature's hit points", because 'damage taken' is determined after resistance, DR, or hardness is applied.

'Damage Dealt' - 'Protection' = 'Damage Taken'

It reads the same way during gameplay:

- Player: "I deal 20 slashing damage to the skeleton."
- DM subtracts 5 from 20 due to skeleton's DR 5/bludgeoning, totaling 15.
- DM reduces skeleton's current hit points by 15.
- DM tells players the result of the attack/damage.