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I'm not sure I understand. Most players discuss what they are playing before the session begins. Often, I see players switching to another character because they don't want to be forced to play up/down, don't want to duplicate a "role," or just won't mesh with the other characters (alignment, morals, etc). And sometimes, the characters choices are made, despite the other characters.
Until you actually start the scenario, it shouldn't matter. Once you start, however, short of a violation of the rules, your character choice should be locked in.
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Before you've filled in the sign-in sheet and begun the game, you can decide which character to play by any behaviour that doesn't inconvenience the GM and other players (don't waste time, make sure everyone knows which character and what level you're running and answer any GM questions accurately). Certainly a group can discuss which characters they'll each run to make a better party.
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I am yet to sit at a PFS table where a short discussion of who is bringing what doesn't take place. Once you list your PC number and the boxed text starts, you are locked in.
I will usually swap characters if I think it will round out the group better. In one game we had a Ranger with wolf and two Druids with animals, so I elected not to take my summoner considering we already had 6 players and went with my cleric instead.
I don't usually care which PC I play and am happy to change if it makes for a more enjoyable experience. I do try to play the same PC through story arcs though.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don't have the character base to do that. I have one PC that's reserved for playing alongside my wife, one that just leveled to 3rd, and one that just leveled to 6th. I plan to make a new PC soon, so that I have an option for each subtier. I suppose eventually I'll accumulate enough sessions that I can have multiple PCs per tier, but I'm not there yet. :P
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Can you play a different PC at any Tier you get set at?
Let's say you sit down at a table and the other PCs are introducing themselves and you find 3 clones of your PC across from you. 3 Max Damage 2-H weapon Barbarians... all half orcs, all levels 4 or 5, just like your Max Damage.
Could you switch to a different character?
Should you?
Would you?Basicly this is a question on how prepared you are to play - in a different way. We will assume that you are prepared for Swarms, for Darkness, for enemies at range - but are you prepared to help "balance" the party?
At Tiers
1-5 I have 5 characters,
5-9 I have 2 (soon to be 3) charactersat higher level tiers I do not have characters... yet. But I expect they will get there, it is only a matter of time.
each character is unique and will bring a different tool set to the table.
I get around this by making a character that is different than what my home group has. I built a cavalier because no one had a mounted charger, a rogue/bard/druid because no one had a skill monkey, and now a maneuver fighter because no one had good combat maneuvers. Of course, this doesn't work as well when I go to cons, but I don't have the character base to switch characters at the same tier, and I've gotten lucky so far. And I've even been okay with other bruising characters with my halfling, I find that I'm built more for defense, which at cons not a lot of people I see are.
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My local playing group just hasn't existed long enough to have that variety yet.
The couple who started the group played at conventions before starting our local group, so they both have two characters that are up to around level 4-6. The rest of us are on our first characters, and are up to level 4 or 5 for the most active members, and not even that far for the less active members.
Those of us who are up to level 4+ have all agreed to make second characters at level 1, so we can sometimes play with the lower level guys instead of leaving them behind.
And a couple of us have more than one character idea we'd like to try, so we may end up with multiple level 1 characters each, at which point it might turn into what Nosig is talking about with a variety of characters to play in the same tier, but only at level 1.
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I have some variety for my available PCs, but it will vary by tier/sub-tier for the scenario. It also depends on the others playing the game with me.
1x11th level PC, fighter/archer
1x8th level PC, fighter/reach maneuvers
1x4th level PC, gunslinger/musket user
1x3rd level PC, fighter/knowledges-whip user
bunchs of first level PCs with 0-2 chronicels (2 are pending First Steps Part 3 chronicles)
In our area, it usually starts out with everyone deciding on which PC they are going to play, with some work on determining sub-tier during the character discussion.
Some things will make me change which PC I want to play during the start-up sequence, like having a table of my 11th level archer, the local gadget 10th level rogue/bard, and 2-3 7th level pregens tends to make me switch to my 8th level fighter instead. I have already played down waaaay too much with the 11th level PC, but am not comfortable playing at the higher sub-tier with only the non-combat-oriented rogue/bard as backup. That would lead to a TPK....
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Its great to be able to field multiple characters within a tier. I think it can be hard to find high level games. Thankfully season three introduced some different tiers. So Nosig see if you can get a couple more games in with one of your 5th levels perhaps a 5-9 scenario.
7th rogue
10 9/1 inq/fighter
9 8/1 cle/pa
4 sorc
1 magus
I think I understand the more specific question you are asking, and I only skimmed the other answers, so I hope I am not duplicating anyone.
I would say that a change of character should be allowed except in one situation: when changing your character after the APL is determined and the sub-tier for the scenario is set and your change of character would alter the APL of the table, but only if the APL was not within a sub-tier to begin with, such as an APL of 3 for a tier 1-5 scenario. In this example, if your change of character would alter the APL to either 2 or 4 and take away the party's choice of playing up or down, then you should get the approval of the rest of the players before making that change of character.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I think I understand the more specific question you are asking, and I only skimmed the other answers, so I hope I am not duplicating anyone.
I would say that a change of character should be allowed except in one situation: when changing your character after the APL is determined and the sub-tier for the scenario is set and your change of character would alter the APL of the table, but only if the APL was not within a sub-tier to begin with, such as an APL of 3 for a tier 1-5 scenario. In this example, if your change of character would alter the APL to either 2 or 4 and take away the party's choice of playing up or down, then you should get the approval of the rest of the players before making that change of character.
If you change characters you change the APL. If that makes it an illegal table then it's illegal regardless of whether you made a previous APL calculation based on a different character.
The assumption is that you are switching to a character who is more appropriate for the subtier you are playing, not less appropriate.
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As GM / organizer I try the following.
Step 1: Encourage heavy players to get a second (third) character early on.
Step 2: I try to avoid gaps that are too big in level. The gap between a lvl 1 and 4 is too big - even if legal to play in an adventure. I'm not disallowing to mix these (to avoid starting another PL thread changing rules) but I try to seat people without this happening if possible. Players with multiple characters are the key for this to work.
Step 3: For most of my games (local ones) I know all players and the characters. I also know the adventure. So I try to make suggestions about which character would yield the right overall APL that most likely will yield the most enjoyment at the table.
This isn't possible at conventions. But before I finalize the APL I do ask around what level/class each player has available. I then suggest which of the characters I feel is most appropriate. In some cases players even have several that are close enough - so I leave it completely to them.
The biggest problem I see are level 4/5 charaters but no other replacement showing up at a tier 1-5 table with new players with a starting character. I dislike this situation as much as a 7 player table. If I can, then I try to swap with a neighbour table - can you take my low level ones in exchange for some higher level or vice versa.
So far I never send someone away from the table - but I did do spontaneous swaps of players and even scenarios because the level 4 player also realizes last minute that he played the game he signed up for already.
Flexibility is the key. I try to be flexible as GM and ask for a minimal flexibility of players as well.
Thod
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well just getting back in, I have a level 3 magus*, a level 2 sorcerer and plans for a rogue and a fighter.
Given that I tote my mini around and have Hero Lab installed, I can create a new level 1 character in about 5 minutes, so if it's a low tier game, I can fill any hole if need be ;-)
*
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I would say that a change of character should be allowed except in one situation
I disagree. I see this all the time. Players are "wheelin and deelin" to get the best mix. That includes classes, skills, levels, roles, etc. I can see how a player who switches to another character for the sole purpose of forcing the APL up or down would be considered jerky, if said APL is outside some of the player's appropriate range. However, I do see players switching characters to better fit the APL.
I hate it when a level 2 is forced to play up to 4-5, or when a level 3 is forced up to a 6-7, or when a level 5 is forced down to a 1-2. In those case, it is absolutely suggested that you switch characters to have a more appropriate level.
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I have another related(?) query.
Can/should/would you change your character after the Venture Captain briefing?
Normally, I would say, no. The adventure has begun, too late. But what if the character would never agree to the specifics of the task because of a moral/other objection? Without a lot of spoilers, I cannot provide examples, but I think we all know what I mean.
Sorry, if this would be a threadjack.
Characters are not, and have never been, guaranteed max prestige every scenario. So if something like that happens with a faction mission, you suck it up and play. And if it is the main mission that your character has a problem with, why did you choose that character to begin with when there are non-spoiler descriptions available of all the scenarios? Of course, if it an on-the-fly choice of scenario, then it is the GM's responsibility to give that basic description of the scenario before players choose characters in order to avoid issues like this.
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Prestige
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to the primary mission of the scenario.
A hypothetical example...You have a character who's background includes a fear of water. Perhaps it includes a system mechanic or perhaps it is just fluff. Either way, he will refuse to take a boat or travel by ship. the scenario offered is Murder on the Throaty Mermaid. The player knows nothing about the scenario other than s/he has not played it before. After the Venture Captain's briefing, the player says this character would never go on this mission and would nicely decline the assignment.
Can/should/would the player choose to drop that character in favor of another one?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Twilight,
I think you and I may have had a similar topic.
To me it's a mild case of 'retcon'.
In our world*
Player: "Wow, my character's a gillman, and we're to travel through the desert for 3 weeks guarding the McGuffin? I thought it said "Across the Deep Sea" not Across the DUNE Sea Can I play my rogue instead?"
GM: Yeah, if he's of the same or close level.
In Golarion.
VC: Who can I choose for this mission *flips through files* Um, let's not invite the fish guy to the desert. I've a rogue available let's send him.
Now for faction missions, I'd say no takebacks. As Enevhar said, 2 PP isn't guarenteed. Just because your Paladin of the Silver Crusade is phobic of bugs, and your faction mission is to escort the holy wasps of Calistra to the temple, you can't back down.
This is how I picture it as "In Golarion."
VC: Your mission is to take the McGuffin across the Dune sea.
Paladin: Sure Thing Boss!
Silver Crusade Contact: I hear you're going to go to the Dune Sea for the McGuffin. I need you to take these wasps to the temple of Calistra.
Paladin: But I'm terrified of Wasps!
SCC: Tough, you're the one going, suck it up holy boy!
*returns to the HQ*
Paladin: Um boss, I can't do this run. I've a sick mom. Yeah, a sick mom.
VC: What? No I don't have anyone else. You're going or you can go back to grouting the marble of the grand hall with a toothbrush!
*
Director of Brand Strategy
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The tier for a scenario never changes. So by choosing a PC to play in a given scenario, you're doing so knowing what tier the scenario encompasses. Switching out a PC for another one of the same level after determining what subtier you'll be playing seems fine to me, as it won't alter the math at all. What you can't do is switch PCs once the scenario's begun. Note that determining APL with one PC and then using a PC who would change the subtier as a result of having a higher or lower level than the one used for the calculations.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The tier for a scenario never changes. So by choosing a PC to play in a given scenario, you're doing so knowing what tier the scenario encompasses. Switching out a PC for another one of the same level after determining what subtier you'll be playing seems fine to me, as it won't alter the math at all. What you can't do is switch PCs once the scenario's begun. Note that determining APL with one PC and then using a PC who would change the subtier as a result of having a higher or lower level than the one used for the calculations.
Thank you Mark.
I hate to go Clintonesque, but what's defined as 'Begins'? When the GM reads the intro text? after the intro text but before the RP/mechanics start?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I hate to go Clintonesque, but what's defined as 'Begins'? When the GM reads the intro text? after the intro text but before the RP/mechanics start?
The intro text is part of the scenario. You can do whatever you want before you start playing, but once you start, that's it; you're playing, even if a player's participation in the game for the first five minutes is as a listener to the GM reading.
A hypothetical example...You have a character who's background includes a fear of water. Perhaps it includes a system mechanic or perhaps it is just fluff. Either way, he will refuse to take a boat or travel by ship. the scenario offered is Murder on the Throaty Mermaid. The player knows nothing about the scenario other than s/he has not played it before. After the Venture Captain's briefing, the player says this character would never go on this mission and would nicely decline the assignment.
Can/should/would the player choose to drop that character in favor of another one?
Personally, I wouldn't think that was any worse than reading the synopsis of the scenario before playing it, and I've had several people suggest to me that reading the synopsis was a good idea (to avoid situations like the hypothetical you posed above).
I probably wouldn't feel too strongly about it one way or the other.
The only difference is that if the player read the synopsis first, presumably, the issue would be moot because that character would not be presented.
I'm not sure how that's a difference; I'd say it's an exactly-the-same-ness (after hearing X, you don't play character Y).
At any rate, it's easy enough to read the synopsis before even starting the game, I suppose.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I would still like to know, what happens if during the briefing I just say "you need to mark me down a Zeroed out AR, my PC can't do this one - I'll go set over here, just call me when you finish". When this came up on a different thread, one Judge seemed to indication that he would mark my PC as dead and turn in the paperwork.
Um, how exactly is that a dead PC? He's not exactly going to get assassinated on the way out of the briefing if he decides not to go, is he?
The worst I could see would be getting a chronicle with no XP, no gold, and no PP, and therefore not being able to replay that mod with a different character.
But dead? That's just nuts!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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it was in the Walking Away from a table discussion. One poster said the Judge should report the guys PC as dead. Blew me away...
I've considered this as a way to get training for an Animal Companion. Burns a mod, and a game slot (MUCH more improtant to me is the time), but you should be able to train your AC I would think. You didn't spend the time adventuring after all.
Unless you are thinking about another comment he was talking about someone walking away in the middle of an adventure after multiple encounters. I think it is a bit harsh and probably not the way I would handle it, but it was a completely different situation.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Reporting the character as dead would be incorrect, and appealable.
However, if a player walked away as you indicate, I would not be likely to make space for them at my table in future, or muster them to a table at an event I was co-ordinating.
If someone walks away after the scenario is in progress and there is a TPK I might very well report him as dead. Even then, it depends on the situation.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I hate to go Clintonesque, but what's defined as 'Begins'? When the GM reads the intro text? after the intro text but before the RP/mechanics start?The intro text is part of the scenario. You can do whatever you want before you start playing, but once you start, that's it; you're playing, even if a player's participation in the game for the first five minutes is as a listener to the GM reading.
Thank you. I wasn't asking in a 'richardish-rules-lawyer' way, more in a 'rule of fun' kind of way. Then again, I want scenarios now and again that make Silver Crusade characters squirm. ;-)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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nosig,
From how I'm reading Mark's reply, yes you can. So, for example, if you walk in and there's a party of 4 half orc barbarians, and you're playing at tier 1-5, you can then stuff your 3rd level half orc barbarian back in the folder and pull out your 4th level gnome wizard. before the game starts.
For myself, to answer my own question:
At Tiers
1-5 I have 5 characters,
5-9 I have 2 (soon to be 3) charactersat higher level tiers I do not have characters... yet. But I expect they will get there, it is only a matter of time.
I have a level 6 PC (who I haven't played in a long time), a level 4 PC, a level 2 PC and a level 1 PC. So I don't have much choice in tier 5-9, but plenty of choice in tier 1-5 (a spellcaster, a grappler and a mounted melee character).
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Here's a not-entirely-hypothetical example.
I have a paladin/hellknight (Order of the Pyre, specifically charged with rooting out corruption and visiting doom upon those who abuse power).
I decide to play him in a scenario where the VC explains that we're supposed to protect a corrupt government official who has information the Pathfinders want, and he insists that we are to present ourselves under false pretenses in order to accomplish the mission.
"Sorry, boss. Can't agree to do that."
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For me it would depend on what character I originally intended to play. I admit to some "fatherly" favoritism with my characters. I do "love" some more than others.
So, if I decide to play my Pirate, not gonna change. I'm really don't care what you bring to the table, he is just that much fun (for me at least). If I was bringing my Cleric of Sarenrae, I could/would easily swap him out for another character. Perhaps, because there was another dedicated healer, or maybe his world views do not mesh with the other characters, or perhaps there is a dedicated Taldan who despises Sarenites. Personally, I am not really interested in party conflict/strife, I prefer cooperation.
Prior to the scenario starting, I think all of this is easy to deal with. My issue is more with finding out from the Venture Captain briefing that you are not a good choice to go on this mission. Mark has said, by that point, its too late to switch PC's. So, I would wonder what the GM would do if I just left the table? Assuming that I cannot switch to a PC I will have more fun with, I would need to leave. Would that constitute playing the scenario? Would I get a chronicle with no rewards and be blocked from playing it for credit later? Perhaps, but who does that serve and to what end?