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So several of the new familiars have abilities based on hit dice. The familiar abilities include the following:
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.
The question is what all does this affect?
For example the new Agathion that can be taken as a familiar (silvanshee) has the ability to:
"Lay on hands as a paladin whose level equals the agathion’s Hit Dice."[/URL]
Does this mean that a wizard with a Silvanshee familiar can have his familiar that has lay on hands 10/day that heals 10d6 each time?
I am not seeing anywhere where it states that the Silvanshee get's lay on hands equal to it's hit dice or linked in any way to it's hit dice.
The Special Quality states:
cat’s luck, flight, lay on hands (1d6, 1/day, as a 2nd-level paladin), spectral mist.
My interpretation would be that it's lay on hands power is limited to once a day, to 1d6 healing, as a 2nd level paladin would be able to use Lay on Hands.
It's in its type:
Agathion's get lay on hands based on hit dice as quoted above.
Does this mean that a wizard with a Silvanshee familiar can have his familiar that has lay on hands 10/day that heals 10d6 each time?
That is how I read it. Finally a familiar worth taking, other than the imp.
It's in its type:
Agathion's get lay on hands based on hit dice as quoted above.
Ah, thanks for pointing that out. I didn't think to verify it's subtype.
Then yes, according to the rules, a 20th level wizard could have a Silvanshee that can Lay on Hands for 10d6, 11 times a day (don't forget to add it's charisma bonus to half it's level).
If you can get it hang about in combat rich environments. :)
That's a lot of healing. I expect this to see an errata.
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If a familiar gets that close to combat in one of my games the caster might be getting a new familiar soon. It is good for out of combat healing though, but not overpowering, IMHO.
PS:Strangely enough I always rolls 1's and 2's when going after familiars. The dice gods must favor them.
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That's a lot of healing. I expect this to see an errata.
To be fair this affects things like a viper familiar's poison, the caster level of some abilities for other familiar types and what not. My main question is: How far does this push? It's suggested that advancing monsters get bigger after a certain number of hit dice advanced -- well the familiars are getting the equivalent of that. I don't mind the idea of a familiar that remains "viable" in non-combat support roles or falling back on the old "Use my Use magic device skill and act as a quick draw for me" but at the same time I'm not sure how much power I want to put into them personally.
Now it should be pointed out that even at 11 times a day 10d6 of healing is going to amount to just 35ish hit points on average (at level 20 at that too) which isn't much for the level, only affects one person at a time, and doesn't bring the mercies with it either. So maybe it's not quite as much as it could be -- but for an unprepared GM it could be a "shock" ability that gives the "OMG TOO POWERFUL! BAN IT!" knee-jerk reaction.
Well, looking on the mentioned agathion I noticed that it can use lay on hands once per day like 2nd level Paladin - but does not get additional daily use of lay on hands from Charisma bonus of +1. Is it error in stat block or does the agathion subtype description misses notice that they do not add Charisma bonus to daily uses.
EDIT: After looking on the rest of agathions' entries I think that it must be error in silvanshee stat block, others clearly have Charisma bonus added to number of daily uses.
EDIT: Can anyone with Bestiary 2 check if it is d20pfsrd error or actual error in the book?
Well, looking on the mentioned agathion I noticed that it can use lay on hands once per day like 2nd level Paladin - but does not get additional daily use of lay on hands from Charisma bonus of +1. Is it error in stat block or does the agathion subtype description misses notice that they do not add Charisma bonus to daily uses.
EDIT: After looking on the rest of agathions' entries I think that it must be error in silvanshee stat block, others clearly have Charisma bonus added to number of daily uses.
EDIT: Can anyone with Bestiary 2 check if it is d20pfsrd error or actual error in the book?
Since it is a special ability it may not work exactly like the paladin version.
A Paladin gains the Lay On Hands ability at second level. Thus the phrase, "As a second level Paladin."
I think it's clear from the text that the familiar's ability works just like the Paladin ability and continues to improve with higher hit dice.
Since it is a special ability it may not work exactly like the paladin version.
But then any differences would be noted (or at least should be). Lets hear somone from paizo to speak on that matter (unless it is pfsrd error) <gathers a herd of tasty triceratops in hope of attracting hungry T-Rex or something>.
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Technically, that should scale with HD, so as written, a wiz20's silvanshee improved familiar would have 7 uses of 10d6 LOH per day. Which is, of course, way too good. We're probably going to errata the silvanshee so the damage still scales up with HD but it remains capped at 1/day.
I thought I'd read the opposite, that abilities based on HD didn't increae at all due to being a familiar.
Did I imagine that?
-S
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I thought I'd read the opposite, that abilities based on HD didn't increae at all due to being a familiar.
Did I imagine that?
-S
More likely you read that familiars do not actually gain HD (thus no advancement in skill points, feats known, ability increase ...). But the "effects based on HD" is a specific exception to this rule.
IIRC, it was meant to make familiars harder to disable with spells which have effects based on the target's HD (such as Color Spray).
Technically, that should scale with HD, so as written, a wiz20's silvanshee improved familiar would have 7 uses of 10d6 LOH per day. Which is, of course, way too good. We're probably going to errata the silvanshee so the damage still scales up with HD but it remains capped at 1/day.
Are you sure? So a 20th-level wizard has a familiar that can heal about 70d6 hp/day. Meaning 245 hp/day on average. Given that a single heal (which maxes out at 15th level) can heal 150 hp, that's less than two heal spells/day, at the cost of 7 actions.
Not sure that's exactly gamebreaking at 20th level. Useful, sure. Gamebreaking? Hardly.
Consider that a 20th-level fighter automatically confirms every single freakin' crit and any fighter worth their salt will have Stunning Critical and will be hasted and will have Improved Critical ... and you're worried about the wizard's familiar healing people?
Seems like a non-issue to me.
Not sure that's exactly gamebreaking at 20th level. Useful, sure. Gamebreaking? Hardly.
I don't think anyone is saying that it is gamebreaking, but that it is a bit powerful for a feat. I think everyone would agree, that for a NG caster, this is the best available choice for a familiar. This potentially gives a Wizard (who would normally not have healing at all) the ability to do some healing and still have his whole action to cast spells and move around normally.
I have a few ideas for it. One is for a low int Blight Druid (gets familiar instead of animal companion). His new familiar will be smarter and more charismatic than he is. While he is too dumb to participate in many party conversations, his familiar isn't. This opens up a whole bunch of RP opportunities for me.
Well, unless d20pfsrd has decided to exercise some unasked for rules judgment, it appears that the Silvanshee's lay on hands has indeed been nerfed into the ground. :(
I finally got to play an alchemist and was looking forward to having a cute, purring cancerous growth healing the party, and now 1 level from being able to qualify I see that is no longer possible. 1d6 healing just doesn't cut it. Guess I'll put off the feat until I can find something else I like to get instead. Or just keep my helpful little compsognathus...
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Well, unless d20pfsrd has decided to exercise some unasked for rules judgment, it appears that the Silvanshee's lay on hands has indeed been nerfed into the ground. :(
The same language is used in PRD.
Note that only Silvanshee has the "awlays as" clause. All other agathions have "as x level paladin". Was it deliberate to prevent increased healings for silvanshee familiars? I am not amused by this chance.
StreamoftheSky: Yes it was nerfed. :) Personally, I think rightly so. A Silvanshee healing as a paladin of equal level is completely out of whack relative to the power all other improved familiars have. Note: I am not saying overpowered, just out of whack relative to.
- Gauss
It has no hands to use magic device with. That was the drawback, IMO. Improved Familiars using wands to extend your action economy is awesome.
Oh well, I'll start pumping up UMD in prep. of picking up a Faerie Dragon, perhaps... Options are kind of limited, don't intend to change my alignment all of a sudden just to access other choices on the list. Ultimately, my tumor needs to be adorable.
SteamoftheSky: Several improved familiars do not have hands. Heck, the Augur does not have hands or speech. Compare the ones without hands to each other. They still have similar levels of power. Of course, that is just my opinion. Other opinions vary.
- Gauss