I become an engine of tears, filling the space with water in 2 rounds. Everything drowns, except for me.
Seriously, it's impressive.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I could be wrong, but I think Cryengine is uniquely poorly suited for a client-server mediated game. I suppose you could use the beautiful rendering abilities and put a radically different basic architecture under them, but that's not MMO middleware, it's just licensing a rendering schema.
Goblin Squad Member
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Just browsing some comparisons: http://www.esenthel.com/?id=compare
It's posted on Esenthel's site, so obviously they're going to try to make their product look better. Anyone able to shed some more light on that comparison?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not using Cryengine. Or anything else from Crytech. It's not MMO middleware.ArcheAge, sandbox MMO built with Cryengine3. ;-)
Don't forget Entropia Universe used 2, Aion used 1.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cryengine is a client-side rendering system and media management system (I.e audio, etc). It isn't a back-end system for managing hundreds of thousands of state-dependent variables in near-realtime, or a billing system, or a customer service/GM system, or a transaction processing engine, etc., etc., etc.,
UR4? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD9CPqSKjTU
I wish....
We can dream.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cryeng looks plastic for some reason to me: Shiny but plastic imo.
OP you're being Unreal; when you need a Hero etc..
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cryengine is a client-side rendering system and media management system (I.e audio, etc). It isn't a back-end system for managing hundreds of thousands of state-dependent variables in near-realtime, or a billing system, or a customer service/GM system, or a transaction processing engine, etc., etc., etc.,
No, its not. Its a game engine that also does more than rending and media management. Such as physics, AI editing, performance analysis, resource compiling, pathfinding, and etc.
HOWEVER, I see I was thinking of "MMO Middleware" under a much, much, more broad term. Game engine = middleware, used in in MMO hence "MMO Middleware". I understand now (maybe) you meant more along the lines of Q, Multiverse Network, HeroEngine, or its like? Middleware with a full plate of tools specifically designed with a MMO in mind. Do you have any you're looking at in particular? Found one? Or can't say?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I remember reading Goblinworks is busy-busy hammering out the needed contracts etc. for whichever middleware gets chosen.
"Middleware" to my mind (but then, I work in software engineering) is the stuff between the client and the back-end system. The client (in this case) would be the actual game client, the back-end system something like the database engine or at least the permanent storage needed. Also, in the case of an MMO, the bit of software that "knows" how the world works, how to spawn a hex, the encounters in it, where those are, what state they are in, etc.
Cryengine is client technology, as are (for example) Unreal or Unity. You can tie them to networking software (this is the middleware) to make an MMO.
If I understand it right, HeroEngine supports both the client and the middleware (and the back-end) parts, not sure about most of the others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you mean the networking software IS the middleware or what ties to it. Because from my understanding (FOLDOC and Webster) its "software that mediates between an application program and a network". Making middleware a fairly large category. Then again I understand it is used fast and loose by a lot of people. Doesn't real matter as long as they get whatever they need but learning a little bit more about the more technical side of things never hurts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you guys are interested in what is middleware go check out Big Worlds Technology, it's the middleware being used for Copernicus and wargaming.net.
The Complete Online Games Solution
BigWorld Technology provides developers of online games a competitive advantage by significantly reducing risk, cost and time to market. The BigWorld Technology Suite includes a highly scalable and stable server, robust next-gen client, content creation tools, a library of 3rd party plugins, full support, and other accompanying tools. Games powered by BigWorld include World of Tanks, Realm of the Titans, Kingdom Heroes, and 38 Studios' Amalur sequel MMO Copernicus.
Goblinworks needs a complete online gaming middleware. Unreal engine and cryengine are not middleware.
well yeah, they've already said that they are rolling their own combo of middleware solutions.
what those are, we still don't know.
I'm not quite sure why Ryan responded as he did, re: Cryengine
Not using Cryengine. Or anything else from Crytech. It's not MMO middleware.
I mean, I take him at face value that they aren't licencing Cryengine, but AFAIK nobody claimed that Cryengine was 'mmo middleware' in terms of the broader functions he later described... It's a rendering engine, which should be usable with any combination of other 'backroom' middleware. Along with whatever other 'backroom' middleware they use, I assume there will be a need for a client side graphics (+etc) engine, i.e. what Cryengine is, even if they use a different client graphics engine besides Cryengine.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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According tot he site I linked above, Bigworld does not support the following for development:
-version control server
-GUI editor
-deferred renderer
-ambient occlusion
-per object motion blur
-physics features for clothing
-ragdolls
-destructible objects
None of those are things that need to be present in MMO middleware. Use a version control library for version control, and the physics and shaders need to be implemented in the client anyway.
Sounds to me they need a fully designed prepackaged game client that already has some objects rendered to save time. Similiar to Neverwinter Nights, Elder Scrolls, Or Star Trek , Champions where you had a foundry like program with predesigned table chairs and various objects incuded in the graphic engine and server system to save design time.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Cryeng looks plastic for some reason to me: Shiny but plastic imo.
OP you're being Unreal; when you need a Hero etc..
There are actually some solid reasons to go that Unreal route in terms of future branches. Not the least of which is the mobile end of things. iOS comes immediately to mind but so does Android as Epic has already got the thing running on most ARM based platforms with the graphics power handle it.
From a kingdom management perspective there is utility in having a mobile client to keep current on status and handle various tasks. Regardless of PC client engine.
Although that "plastic" feel AvenaOats, that you're getting off of the Cryeng may have more to do with the choices in lighting and texture that most games using that engine take. For example I could not stand Dragon Age Origins because of the lighting and persistent blur effects, which likely had little to do with the Eclipse Engine itself. Considering that it's mostly Crytek using their own engine to make stuff... their art style choices is what you see most often.
Although I"ll take a guess that Unreal isn't on the list either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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None of those are things that need to be present in MMO middleware. Use a version control library for version control, and the physics and shaders need to be implemented in the client anyway.According tot he site I linked above, Bigworld does not support the following for development:
-version control server
-GUI editor
-deferred renderer
-ambient occlusion
-per object motion blur
-physics features for clothing
-ragdolls
-destructible objects
And Bigworld does not support those for the client. There are other packages that do that for you. I'm not saying Goblinworks can't write their own software to put it in, I'm just pointing out what doesn't come up front with the package.
My spouse and I have been playing MMO for years (well i mostly corrupted her to the world of gaming..lol) and saw that sandbox MMO (Arche Age) and was hoping that Pathfinder Online would follow the same idea of this game.Ultima Online had very sandbox ideas as well and one of the first MMO's. I even tried Vanguard Saga of Heroes MMO (sony online)which you could build your own house and ships even the classes had class specific crafting..like poisons for rogues and arrows for ranger types.