Any Enchantment gurus out there that know how to get the most out of charm person?
I would like to know how to really force my charmed 'friends' to do exactly what I tell them (without casting a higher level enchantment spell). My problem is that even with my high charisma there's still a good chance I'll lose the opposed charisma roll. Are there any feats or class features that can help an enchanter or bard hedge his bets?
Thanks!
Ryan
If you want to play with charm, I highly recommend the serpentine sorc with high charisma and spell focus and greater spell focus.
Charm person doesn't seem nearly as limited with the bloodline arcana that they get.
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Charm isn't dominate. It isn't even suggestion. Charm makes someone friendly to you, nothing more. Everything else you have to do yourself.
The defining characteristic of an enchanter, like an illusionist, is subtlety. Read other people, learn what they're like and what they will and won't usually do, what they can be pushed to do and what they can't. You don't win by maxing out the charisma check and winning it; you win by not having to make the check at all.
In game terms, you probably want to max out Sense Motive, Diplomacy, and Bluff. (Intimidate doesn't work well with "I'm your friend".) Make them your friends -- that's the magic part -- then present plausible-to-them scenarios and suggestions that they're likely to try without getting too suspicious of. Diplomacy is so much easier to use if you start with them already nice and fuzzy-minded about you; Bluff is much more believable if they're not suspicious of their friend giving friendly advice.
Read them. Know what they can and can't do. Sense Motive, Sense Motive, Sense Motive. Know what you can get away with, and don't _try_ to get them to do something fundamentally opposed to what they want to do. You're their friend, right? Act like a friend does, and you're much more likely to get friendly results. You may have to work with them over time to get them to fundamentally shift worldviews.
Give them a plausible motive for what you want them to do. Don't charm the prison guard and say "Help me break out of here" -- he'll be rolling on that. Something like "Hey, could you take me to your boss, I have something important to tell him" or "How about you and me have a nice game of cards, maybe over in the guardroom where it's more comfortable than this cell."
Charm is soap to slide through life, not a jackhammer to break through walls. Use your skills. Think. Read people. Dance with them. Avoid forcing them. Schmooze a bit. Remind your fellow PCs that waving giant bloody greataxes around is likely to be counterproductive to the goal. Charm isn't a combat spell.
Of course, all of this depends on your GM working with you a bit. But a lot depends on your character's skills at making it happen.
And, yeah, some things are hard to do that way. You probably won't convince the charmed priestess of Pharasma to smother the baby she just spent all night delivering, or convince the charmed bugbear to renounce his ways, confess his sins, and join the Church of Desna -- but you could probably convince the priestess to let her good friend hold the baby while she slept, or the bugbear that you can help him terrify the villagers into submission (while you make notes of his plans so your friends can lay an ambush). That kind of thing.
And all that said, mechanically there are some ways to improve your chances of success. A circlet of persuasion gives you a +3 on any Charisma-based check. There are various ways of raising your Charisma that will have the usual effect.
And ways of reducing the enemy save to improve the chances that the charm spell will take effect. Getting them drunk can lower their Wisdom. Fey-blooded sorcerer has a touch that reduces enemy saves. Using your Diplomacy skills to convince them that you just want to give them a luck spell or something, which is really a charm, so they voluntarily fail their save. Won't work against suspicious people with Spellcraft, of course, but there are a lot it will work on...
Smart roleplaying is another approach to consider. Act like a friend to the person you have charmed, and limit your requests to things that you would reasonably expect a friend to do. Combine that with a high charisma and training in Diplomacy, and there may be no change in the charmee's behavior when he inevitably saves and breaks free of your charm.
Solid advice fellas and excellent writeup Tonyz. New insights and tactics on one of my favorite spells. I'll definitely be pumping that Diplomacy.
Is there anything else that adds to one's Charisma based checks that you can think of?
DOT
Circlet of persuasion, headband of charisma, rod of splendor.
Eyes of charming, for a different effect.
And if your DM I is amenable to custom magic items, you might be able to boost the skill roll with a +5 or +10 item.
The right perfume, or right uniform for some people, or a significant word or piece of jewelry (class ring, favorite holy symbol, etc etc etc) might be worth a +2 circumstance bonus or something... But a lot of that falls under Sense Motive and "know your mark", along with "work with the DM."
Don't neglect Intimidate, though... imposing the "shaken" condition on someone for the -2 saves is a nice little debuff that can help charms (or compulsions) stick, even in combat. My fey-blooded sorceress does this (and it fits her chimerical hot/cold "fey" nature): she'll menace someone, THEN charm them, and THEN work diplomatic magic on them :) She charms a surprising number of foes *in* combat using this method: the -2 saves offset their +5.
For a campaign with a lot of intrigue, social situations, "meeting with the Duke", and so on, it's well worth taking Minor Spell Expertise at 9th level (assuming sorcerer, here), allowing the casting of Charm Person as a spell-like ability 2/day. Being able to cast at parties and during court is VERY nice! In the distant day that one can cast 9th level spells (mine has a way to go), Major Spell Expertise allows, say, Dominate Person as a spell-like ability 2/day...
Actual case of Scary Fey Sorceress: in our most recent game, my sorceress (level 8) charmed (extended) a ranger (in combat, having intimidated him to shaken), and once friendly, persuaded him (opposed charisma check, my +8 versus his -1) to escort us as a guide through a dangerous forest. When we would camp at night, she would Blind him (per the spell) to keep him "safe" during the night when Charm would wear off. After a terrifying night of blindness in the forest, he would be intimidated *again* and re-Charmed (extended). Naturally, he was eventually sickened (and fatigued) from the ongoing ordeal, making the morning Charm and opposed Cha check even easier (every morning he was sickened and shaken). Just an example of the less friendly side of Charm :)
Enchanters and Illusionists are certainly the most creatively entertaining classes to play!
This is a very helpful guide. Grazie!
The aura of despair of an enchanter, intimidate skill.... there are other ways of reduce will save of somebody (without allowing a will save to avoid, if it is possible... mind fog is a really bad spell).
I would like to know how to really force my charmed 'friends' to do exactly what I tell them (without casting a higher level enchantment spell). My problem is that even with my high charisma there's still a good chance I'll lose the opposed charisma roll.
Don't make people do things. Make people want to do things. Use Charm Person to make your mark take the time to listen to your Bluff.
Are there any feats or class features that can help an enchanter or bard hedge his bets?
The Hypnotism spell can make your Charm Person spell effectively last forever, which is rather nice. And the Inexplicable Luck feat gives you an 8 point bonus to a Charisma (or any other) roll.