Concept:
An elven swashbuckler who fights with a single weapon in one hand, is a smart and fast (gains Str, Int and Dex to damage) fighter, who is very nimble (Dex and Int to AC) while wearing light armor.
In the game that this character would potentially be ran for the DM is allowing some 3.5 material. The normal caveat is that it can't be something that was reprinted (like I can't use the 3.5 version of a class or Prc that was reprinted in Pathfinder) and, generally no setting specific material. While Swashbuckler was reprinted in Tomb of Battle it is significantly different from it's 3.x counterpart. My DM has ruled that he would allow it. Also, Champion of Corellon Larethian while technically it would be setting specific as it references a particular elven god could easily be placed into any setting that has a similar elven god. So he has ruled that both are allowable in his campaign.
Even with that being true I would prefer to not use them if I could make something equally effective without their use. That being said, I would like to post the build idea that I have and see if it can be improved upon or made without the use of 3.x materials in a competative way.
Str: 10
Dex: 19
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 10
1 Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse, Dodge (1st)
2 Fighter 1: Weapon Focus: Elven Thinblade (fighter 1)
3 Swashbuckler 2: Grace, Combat Expertise (3rd)
4 Fighter 2: Mounted Combat (fighter 2)
5 Swashbuckler 3: Insightful Strike, Mobility (5th)
6 Fighter 3: Armor Training 1
7 Duelist 1: Canny Defense, Precise strike, Dervish Dance (7th)
8 Champion of CL 1: Corellon's blessing, Improved Trip (bonus)
9 Champion of CL 2: Elegent Strike, Agile Maneuvers (9th)
10 Duelist 2: Imprived reaction +2, parry
11 Duelist 3: Enhanced mobility, Tripping Strike (11th)
12 Duelist 4: Combat Reflexes, grace
13 Duelist 5: Riposte, Critical Focus (13th)
@lvl 13:
Str: 10, 12 with item
Dex: 22, 26 with item
Con: 12
Int: 16, 20 with item
Wis: 10
Cha: 10
AC: 35 = 10 + 9 Armor (+3 Mithril Celestial Armor), +8 Dex, +5 Int, +1 dodge, +2 deflection
Attack: +24 (+13BAB, +7 Dex, +1 WF +2 Magic) 1d6 +30 (+2 magic, +1 Str, +8 Dex, +8 Dex, +6 Int, +5 Duelist, +2 WS) 15-20/x2 (+4 to confirmation rolls)
Initiative: +9 = +7 Dex, +2 Imp Reaction
Saves:
Fort: 12 = 11 base, +1 Con
Ref: 14 = 5 base, +7 Dex, +2 Competance
Will: 7 = 7 base (+1 vs. fear)
Equipment:
Mithril Celestial Armor
+2 Keen Defending Scimitar
+2 Str Item
+4 Dex Item
+4 Int Item
Other Feats to get:
Fury's Fall
Staggering Critical
Stunning Critical
Weapon Specialization
Melee Weapon Mastery
Driving Attack
Some things that I was thinking of for this character:
1. Parry sucks for this character until he gets riposte as his AC bonus is higher than his attack bonus. Even after riposte I'm not sure if the math supports parrying to hope to get a riposte. I know it depends on the opponents attack bonus significantly but typically opponent's attack bonus isn't even as high as the PC's. I'm just not sure how strong of a class feature that is with a high AC character.
2. Pathfinder apparently changed the way that base save bonuses work for prestige classes. While it seems obvious now, somehow I missed that. I like it actually. It gets rid of jumping into multiple PrCs for the +2 good saves.
3. The last sentence in the Dervish Dance feat precludes having anything in your off hand. It is both a curse and a blessing. A feat that lets you add your Dex to attack and damage (allowing to essentially get Dex to damage twice) would be too good to exist without some other limiting factor. That limiting factor is moot with my build as I wanted to limit the character to that anyway. Getting an advantage for doing so is great. And LP, you were 100% correct that this feat was designed for this character. It even mentions the Duelist right in the feat.
4. +9 initiative is nice. That could allow the character in the first turn to charge, fighting defensively for a total of -2 to hit and +4 AC against a flat footed target. Since their flat footed it might even be worth using Combat Expertise as well. I do, however, wonder what a defensive charge would look like...
5. This character sucks against constructs, oozes and undead. It can't be helped. He could at least make himself a frustrating target to hit and at least provide a distraction to other PCs who could hopefully deal with the problem better than he can.
6. I really like this build all the way through. It is a strong combattant from start to finish and doesn't really have a "dead spot". It just keeps getting progressively stronger.
7. Getting hit by a crit from this guy sucks. At 13th level you are dealing with an base damage of 56 before dice are even rolled, an automatic trip attempt. And you are going to need to stand the next round. It gets worse at 15th level when he gets Fury's Fall giving him 2x Dex bonus to the trip attempt. And then 17th he will start going into the Staggering Critical tree.
For reference, the CoCL's Elegant Strike class feature is what I was goin for with that class. It reads:
Elegant strike: upon raching the 2nd lvl, you become able to place your your attacks where they deal greater damage. you apply your dexterity modifier to your damage rolls(in addition to your str modifier) with any of the following weapons:longsword,scimitar and rapier. Targets immune to sneak attack are immune to your elegant strike.
Basically the idea of the build is to stack Dervish Dance, Elegant Strike, Precise Strike and Insightful Strike for +Dex, +Dex, +Int, +Duelist level to damage. An agile weapon would also be nice to add to the mix. Also, adding Dex and Int to AC is good for a high AC build.
Along these lines do you all have any other suggestions?
There's a swashbuckler on the PFSRD although personally it doesn't float my boat. I would say you should look at the Free Hand Fighter archetype in the APG, and consider taking six levels in that and then going duelist.
You might also want to take quick gander at this character that I made along a similar concept.
ImperatorK: Yeah, I had my source wrong. It was printed in the APG as an rogue archetype. And thats all fine and stuff but it isn't even close to the martial type swashbuckler like the one printed in the 3.5 book Complete Warrior.
Dabbler: Yep, thats the one from the APG. I agree, doesn't float my boat. Our group chooses to disbelieve in it.
Free Hand Fighter does seem the most appealing of the Fighter archetypes. However, with Swashbuckler being allowed it seems like a big disadvantage to take 6 levels of Fighter rather than 3 Fighter, 3 Swashbuckler. Insightful Strike just seems a lot better for the build than +1 to attack, damage and AC and 2 bonus feats (1 if you consider Swashbuckler gives Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat). Unless you think I'm missing something or that the feats could be spent on something pivotal?
I did look at your character. It is a solid character. It isn't really what I'm after here. Basically, I'm trying to find the most thematic way to build a character with high damage from a single one handed weapon with a high AC.
Daryl: The source of damage is different and un-named so they stack. Crane style, eh? Hadn't thought of that.
Name Violation: Ah, that must have been the other one I saw. Yeah, we feel the same way about that.
would it be possible to use the swashbuckler thrust with a dervish danced scimitar?
Whith dervish dance the scimitar counts as piercing weapon. And the feat has finesse as prereq.
Yes, that should be possible. I'm not interested in doing that at all, but it should be possible.
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Definitely a Dervish Dance candidate.
If your GM is fine with it, you could easily re-skin Dervish Dance for another weapon of similar power to suit your RP.
I did a rapier version a while ago which swapped dance for acrobatics (less bang for your buck from the feat, so a slightly better skill choice) and it has worked out fine.
The Mobile Fighter archetype probably makes a better Swashbuckler than free-hand fighter, unless you really enjoy using combat maneuvres.
However, free-hand fighter is probably a better entry into duellist.
Using Swashbuckler is probably a mistake, just stick with free-hand fighter and you'll have elusive and singleton and have more choice over your feats.
Something like this:
SLIM CR 1/2
Male Elf Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 1
NG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +4; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +3
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 14. . (+4 armor, +4 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 11 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +0
Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Rapier +5 (1d6/18-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +5 (1d3/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 16
Feats Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Weapon Finesse
Traits Armor Expert, Dilettante Artist: Perform (Dance), Diplomacy
Skills Climb -1, Diplomacy +5, Escape Artist +3, Fly +3, Perception +3, Perform (Dance) +2, Ride +3, Stealth +3, Survival +4, Swim +3
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Sylvan
SQ Elven Magic
Combat Gear Chain Shirt, Rapier;
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Dilettante Artist: Perform (Dance), Diplomacy You gain a +1 trait bonus to one category of Perform checks and a +1 trait bonus to Diplomacy checks. One of these skills (your choice) is always a class skill for you.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 racial bonus on caster checks to overcome spell resistance. +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
SLIM CR 1
Male Elf Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 2
NG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +4; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +3
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 14. . (+4 armor, +4 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 20 (2d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +0
Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Scimitar +6 (1d6+4/18-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +6 (1d3/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; CMB +2 (+3 Disarming); CMD 17 (18 vs. Disarm)
Feats Dervish Dance, Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Weapon Finesse
Traits Armor Expert, Dilettante Artist: Perform (Dance), Diplomacy
Skills Climb +3, Diplomacy +5, Escape Artist +3, Fly +3, Handle Animal +4, Perception +3, Perform (Dance) +3, Ride +7, Stealth +3, Survival +4, Swim +3
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Sylvan
SQ Deceptive Strike +1 (Ex), Elven Magic
Combat Gear Chain Shirt, Scimitar;
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Deceptive Strike +1 (Ex) +1 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Dilettante Artist: Perform (Dance), Diplomacy You gain a +1 trait bonus to one category of Perform checks and a +1 trait bonus to Diplomacy checks. One of these skills (your choice) is always a class skill for you.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 racial bonus on caster checks to overcome spell resistance. +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Male Elf Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 3
NG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +4; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +4
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 20, touch 16, flat-footed 14. . (+4 armor, +4 Dex, +2 dodge)
hp 26 (3d10+3)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Scimitar +8 (1d6+4/18-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +7 (1d3/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +3 (+4 Disarming); CMD 19 (20 vs. Disarm)
Feats Dervish Dance, Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Scimitar
Traits Armor Expert, Dilettante Artist: Perform (Dance), Diplomacy
Skills Acrobatics +5, Climb +3, Diplomacy +5, Escape Artist +3, Fly +3, Handle Animal +4, Perception +4, Perform (Dance) +3, Ride +8, Survival +5, Swim +4
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Sylvan
SQ Deceptive Strike +1 (Ex), Elusive +1 (Ex), Elven Magic
Combat Gear Chain Shirt, Scimitar;
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Deceptive Strike +1 (Ex) +1 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Dilettante Artist: Perform (Dance), Diplomacy You gain a +1 trait bonus to one category of Perform checks and a +1 trait bonus to Diplomacy checks. One of these skills (your choice) is always a class skill for you.
Elusive +1 (Ex) +1 Dodge AC
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 racial bonus on caster checks to overcome spell resistance. +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
At level 5 you'll get singleton, which trumps insightful strike by being on all the time and giving a bonus to hit.
SLIM CR 12
Male Elf Duelist 7 Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 6
NG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +10; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +18
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 35, touch 26, flat-footed 19. . (+9 armor, +13 Dex, +3 dodge)
hp 91 (13d10+13)
Fort +11, Ref +19, Will +7
Defensive Abilities Canny Defense +5, Elaborate Defense +2, Parry; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +2 Defending, Keen Adamantine Scimitar +25/+20/+15 (1d6+20/15-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +22/+17/+12 (1d3+1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +22/+17/+12 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Special Attacks Precise Strike, Riposte, Singleton +1
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 22/26, Con 12, Int 16/20, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +13; CMB +21 (+23 Disarming+23 Tripping); CMD 39 (45 vs. Disarm43 vs. Sunder41 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Blinding Flash (DC 24), Combat Expertise +/-4, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Dervish Dance, Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Improved Trip, Mobility, Tripping Strike, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Scimitar, Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
Traits Armor Expert, Dilettante Artist: Perform (Dance), Diplomacy
Skills Acrobatics +23, Climb +3, Diplomacy +5, Escape Artist +23, Fly +20, Handle Animal +4, Perception +18, Perform (Dance) +6, Ride +23, Stealth +20, Survival +7, Swim +4
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnome, Sylvan, Varisian
SQ Acrobatic Charge (Ex), Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex), Elusive +2 (Ex), Elven Magic, Enhanced Mobility (Ex), Gloves of Dueling
Combat Gear +2 Defending, Keen Adamantine Scimitar, Celestial Armor; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Gloves of Dueling, Headband of Vast Intelligence, +4: Acrobatics, Fly
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Acrobatic Charge (Ex) You can charge over difficult terrain.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Blinding Flash (DC 24) In bright light, use move action to dazzle foe for 1 rd (Fort neg).
Canny Defense +5 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Duelist level).
Combat Expertise +/-4 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) You may make up to 9 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex) +2 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Dilettante Artist: Perform (Dance), Diplomacy You gain a +1 trait bonus to one category of Perform checks and a +1 trait bonus to Diplomacy checks. One of these skills (your choice) is always a class skill for you.
Elaborate Defense +2 (Ex) +2 AC bonus when fighting defensively / on total defense.
Elusive +2 (Ex) +2 Dodge AC
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 racial bonus on caster checks to overcome spell resistance. +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Enhanced Mobility (Ex) +4 AC vs attacks of opportunity while moving out of a square.
Gloves of Dueling These supple leather gloves grant the wearer gains a +4 bonus to his CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder his wielded weapons, and effects that cause him to lose his grip on his weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Parry (Ex) Forego an attack to defend against enemy attacks.
Precise Strike (Ex) Extra damage when using light / 1-handed Piercing weapons.
Riposte (Ex) AoO when you parry.
Singleton +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Tripping Strike Critical hit's confirmation roll is a Trip maneuver check.
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Attack: +24 (+13BAB, +7 Dex, +1 WF +2 Magic) 1d6 +30 (+2 magic, +1 Str, +8 Dex, +8 Dex, +6 Int, +5 Duelist, +2 WS) 15-20/x2 (+4 to confirmation rolls)
This is wrong, isn't it?
damage would be 1d6+(+2 magic, +8 Dex, +5 Precise Strike, +2 WS) = 1d6+17Is two levels of a 3.5 prestige class really giving +13 to your damage?
Incidentally, at the same level the build I posted does 1d6=(+2 magic, +8 Dex, +1 singelton, +7 Precise Strike, +2 WS) = 1d6+20
SLIM CR 12
Male Elf Duelist 7 Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 6
NG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +10; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +18
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 35, touch 26, flat-footed 19. . (+9 armor, +13 Dex, +3 dodge)
hp 95 (13d10+13)
Fort +11, Ref +19, Will +7
Defensive Abilities Canny Defense +5, Elaborate Defense +2, Parry; Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +2 Defending, Keen Adamantine Scimitar +25/+20/+15 (1d6+20/15-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +22/+17/+12 (1d3+1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +22/+17/+12 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Special Attacks Precise Strike, Riposte, Singleton +1
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 22/26, Con 12, Int 16/20, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +13; CMB +21 (+23 Disarming+23 Tripping); CMD 39 (45 vs. Disarm43 vs. Sunder41 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Blinding Flash (DC 24), Combat Expertise +/-4, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Dervish Dance, Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Improved Trip, Mobility, Tripping Strike, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Scimitar, Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
Traits Armor Expert, Dilettante Artist: Perform (Dance), Diplomacy
Skills Acrobatics +23, Climb +3, Diplomacy +5, Escape Artist +23, Fly +20, Handle Animal +4, Perception +18, Perform (Dance) +6, Ride +23, Stealth +20, Survival +7, Swim +4
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnome, Sylvan, Varisian
SQ Acrobatic Charge (Ex), Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex), Elusive +2 (Ex), Elven Magic, Enhanced Mobility (Ex), Gloves of Dueling
Combat Gear +2 Defending, Keen Adamantine Scimitar, Celestial Armor; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Gloves of Dueling, Headband of Vast Intelligence, +4: Acrobatics, Fly
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Acrobatic Charge (Ex) You can charge over difficult terrain.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Blinding Flash (DC 24) In bright light, use move action to dazzle foe for 1 rd (Fort neg).
Canny Defense +5 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Duelist level).
Combat Expertise +/-4 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) You may make up to 9 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex) +2 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Dilettante Artist: Perform (Dance), Diplomacy You gain a +1 trait bonus to one category of Perform checks and a +1 trait bonus to Diplomacy checks. One of these skills (your choice) is always a class skill for you.
Elaborate Defense +2 (Ex) +2 AC bonus when fighting defensively / on total defense.
Elusive +2 (Ex) +2 Dodge AC
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 racial bonus on caster checks to overcome spell resistance. +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Enhanced Mobility (Ex) +4 AC vs attacks of opportunity while moving out of a square.
Gloves of Dueling These supple leather gloves grant the wearer gains a +4 bonus to his CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder his wielded weapons, and effects that cause him to lose his grip on his weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Parry (Ex) Forego an attack to defend against enemy attacks.
Precise Strike (Ex) Extra damage when using light / 1-handed Piercing weapons.
Riposte (Ex) AoO when you parry.
Singleton +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Tripping Strike Critical hit's confirmation roll is a Trip maneuver check.
The build I posted is 100% Paizo-released PFRPG content.
I'm confused about one thing. How did Pathfinder change the way saves work in PrCs?
Dabbler: Yep, thats the one from the APG. I agree, doesn't float my boat. Our group chooses to disbelieve in it.
I saw a brilliant swashy you will LOVE. He is here from an online game here long since defunct. Basically used a lot of 3.x feats, and the Swashbuckler class. Because his AC bonus from monk and Swashy were different types, they stacked. Because he took Kung Fu Genius, both were Intelligence based. Unorthodox Flurry gave him masses of attacks with his rapier and enormous damage, I swear this character was lethal at 5th level while also being unarmoured and untouchable.
I'm confused about one thing. How did Pathfinder change the way saves work in PrCs?
Core / Base classes start with 2.5 in their strong saves, and 0 in their weak saves. They then progress by 0.5 per level for their strong saves, and 0.33 per level for their weak saves.
Prestige classes start at 1.0 in their strong saves and 0.67 in their weak saves. They then progress by 0.5 per level for their strong saves, and 0.33 per level for their weak saves.
Practical Example:
Rogue
level 1:
Reflex save = 2
Will save = 0
Fort save = 0
level 2:
Reflex save = 3
Will save = 0
Fort save = 0
Duelist
level 1:
Reflex save = 1
Will save = 0
Fort save = 0
level 2:
Reflex save = 1
Will save = 1
Fort save = 1
In 3.5, prestige classes started at the exact same save bonuses as core classes.
Is two levels of a 3.5 prestige class really giving +13 to your damage?
Let me break it down at 13th level:
13 BAB
+8 Dex
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 Magic
----------
+25 to attack
1d6
+2 magic enhancement bonus
+1 Strength
+8 Dex (Dervish Dance)
+8 Dex (Elegant Strike)
+6 Int (Precise Strike)
+5 Duelist damage/class level
+2 Weapon Specialization
--------------
1d6+32
If I made the weapon have the Agile property it would instead give an additional +8 damage from Dex boosting the total up to +40 damage per attack.
Dabbler: Nice build. :) I didn't want to go completely unarmored here. I was actually looking for a lightly armored build. Typically armor bonuses are easier and cheaper to get than Monk type class based unarmored armor. Plus it allows you to wear enchanted armor. In the build you posted his AC is only 21 at 5th level. In my build at 5th level he would have:
10
+7 Armor (+1 Mithril Breastplate)
+5 Dex
+1 Dodge
-------------
23 AC
Bardic Dave: Thanks for offering the in depth explination of saving throw breakdowns.
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snip
1d6
+2 magic enhancement bonus : source = weapon+1 Strength : Dervish Dance replaces strength = not valid
+8 Dex (Dervish Dance) : source = feat
+8 Dex (Elegant Strike) : source = 3.5 prestige class
+6 Int (Precise Strike) : This is a mistake, you are mixing it up with the AC bonus, that's the duelist feature linked to Int. = not valid
+5 Duelist damage/class level : source = duelist ability called recise Strike
+2 Weapon Specialization : source = feat
--------------
1d6+32
This is as far as I can work out.
The strength bonus is definitely out of bounds.
I don't see where the intelligence +6 can come from but it isn't the duelist.
So, the 3.5 prestige class is going to let you take your dex bonus twice, giving a final damage of
1d6
+2 magic enhancement bonus
+8 Dex (Dervish Dance)
+8 Dex (Elegant Strike)
+5 Duelist (Precise Strike)
+2 Weapon Specialization
--------------
1d6+25
Still a pretty good deal.
Int to damage comes from Swashbuckler. I'm sorry that I mislabled it above. It is actually called "Insightful Strike" and is gained as a class ability at Swashbuckler 3. You are correct about the Str damage though. Taking that out it would be:
+2 magic enhancement bonus : source = weapon
+8 Dex (Dervish Dance) : source = feat
+8 Dex (Elegant Strike) : source = 3.5 prestige class
+6 Int (Insightful Strike) : source: Swashbuckler
+5 Precise Strike : source = Duelist damage/class level
+2 Weapon Specialization : source = feat
--------------
1d6 +31
This is without the Agile weapon enhancement.
Why exactly would Agile and Dervish Dance not stack? Or for that matter Elegant Strike and Dervish Dance? Please site the rule that you are referencing.
So no answer on why Dervice Dance wouldn't stack with Agile?
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So no answer on why Dervice Dance wouldn't stack with Agile?
It doesn't because a scimitar can't ever be Agile.
This is because you can never use a scimitar with Weapon Finesse (and an Agile weapon must be a weapon that can be used with that Feat specifically). Dervish Dance lets you use Dex to hit and damage on a scimitar, and has a prerequisite of Weapon Finesse, but doesn't technically make a scimitar usable with the Weapon Finesse Feat.
Read Dervish Dance if you doubt me.
Now, they both also say they replace the Strength modifier with Dex, and you can't replace it if it's already been replaced, so no GM in their right mind would alow it anyway, but the situation is impossible in the first place.
I'm not sure where you got that the character would be using a scimitar?...
He would be using an Elvin Thinblade. He even has Weapon Focus in it. Oh, wait. I see. Its the wording of the feat. I remember the my original draft of the character (the one I posted above) included using the Elven Thinblade but the Dervish Dance feat was pointed out afterwords. I had been thinking of asking my DM if he would allow it to apply to the Elven Thinblade instead but I'm not really that attached to using that weapon so I could use the Scimitar instead.
Ok, yeah. I'm looking at it and it appears that by RAW you are correct. However, let me post the valid rules here:
Agile
This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
Dervish Dance
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Ok, so they both replace Strength. Agile and Dervish Dance can not be used at the same time. No biggy, I didn't even include that in my initial calculations anyway. Also, it just means that I don't have to worry about getting the Agile property added to my weapons. Moving on...
Elegant Strike (Ex): Upon reaching 2nd level, you become
able to place your attacks where they deal greater damage. You
apply your Dexterity bonus as a bonus on damage rolls (in
addition to any Strength bonus you may have) with any of the
following weapons: longsword, rapier, elven thinblade, elven
lightblade, elven court sword, or scimitar. Targets immune to
sneak attacks or extra damage from critical hits are immune
to your elegant strike.
This would stack. It applies Dexterity bonus as a bonus on damage rolls. It doesn't replace anything, it simply gives a bonus.
Precise Strike (Ex): A duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding her duelist level to her damage roll.
That stacks.
Insightful Strike (Ex): At 3rd level a Swashbuckler becomes able to place her finesse attacks where they deal greater damage. She applies her Intelligence bonus (if any) as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus she may have) with any light weapon as well as any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, such as a rapier, whip or spiked chain.
Ok, it stacks. However there is a snag there. Deadmanwalking is correct that technically, per RAW, that you are not allowed to use Insightful Strike with with a Scimitar even if you have the Dervish Dance feat. Even though it requires Weapon Finesse to get Dervish Dance and it gives you the same benefit as Weapon Finesse does while using a Scimitar it does not count, per RAW, with this feat.
However... I would argue that the intention was to make it allowable for such things. I realize that the wording could have been different. It could have said something like "This feat allows you to use Weapon Finesse for Scimitars". And that would have been a lot less ambiguous. But we deal with these issues all the time and this is really the pervue of DM discretion. Honestly, I'm not sure how mine would rule. I know I would rule to allow it if I were DM. I wonder how you all would rule. In fact, maybe I should post this in the rules forum...
Either way it looks like for this to work that I would either have to get a ruling from my DM as to whether he would allow Dervish Dance to apply to any weapon other than the Scimitar (like the Elven Thinblade for instance) or to allow the Scimitar to be considered usable with Weapon Finesse if I had the Dervish Dance feat. If either of those rulings were made then it would make everything except Agile stack.
Unless I'm mistaken? Did I have any other flaws in my logic in there?
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Unless I'm mistaken? Did I have any other flaws in my logic in there?
No, all of that follows. Assuming you could talk your GM into allowing Dervish Dance (I'd allow it), Piranha Strike is another Feat I really think should apply to all Finesse weapons and would be nice for this build.
How did I forget Piranha Strike? Your absolutely correct. Although at this point I'm not even sure where I could fit it in at.
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How did I forget Piranha Strike? Your absolutely correct. Although at this point I'm not even sure where I could fit it in at.
You could skip Agile Maneuvers. Disarm, Sunder, and Trip are all already covered by Weapon Finesse, and I'm honestly skeptical if it's worth grabbing the Feat just to get the rest.
Well... your right. However there is that whole thing about whether you are using your weapon to trip with or not.
Ah, yes. You are correct, sir.
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Int to damage comes from Swashbuckler. I'm sorry that I mislabled it above. It is actually called "Insightful Strike" and is gained as a class ability at Swashbuckler 3. You are correct about the Str damage though. Taking that out it would be:
Which Swashbuckler-class do you mean? In the APG the Swashbuckler get on the 3rd level "Daring".
Swashbuckler from the 3.x book Complete Warrior. See original post.