What is the parties make up? And what was the fighters build?
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CRs are based on average party level and then based on the number of members in the party. So if the party is on average level 3.5 and there are six members then the party level is like 4.5 (I think).
An NPC with full class levels of equal level to the lower side of the party would make him one CR higher if I remember because class levels are treated differently than just being a plain old monster. Its like throwing a Troll at the party, but giving him 1 level of Fighter. So the fighter would be equal in level to your higher side of the party, and that is just based on no magic items or fancy creation.
Now I don't have time to kind of reread the section just to make everything 100% perfectly accurate, but I think thats a close summation.
Be glad that you didnt send a Magus, Summoner, Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, Zen-Archer, Antipaladin, Oracle, Samurai or Alchemist.
They would be screwed.
Seriously, something is wrong with your party:D
How was the party attacking him? I mean if they were was attacking the high armor AC that is a poor tatic and the fighter should punish them for it. Was anything attacking touch AC, reflex save or will save (esp will save).
This should be a wakeup call to the party.
And note that, especially if the PCs are separated a lot, one fighter can really often inflict enough damage to quickly take down a character of similar level. Especially if he's well-built to deal damage.
We need some more details, I think,but right now I'm guessing that a fighter of equal level to the PCs can easily take down a single character in two rounds, and might do it in one,particularly if none of them is optimized for surviving melee combat.
A well-built Fighter is nothing to laugh at or take for granted. If you really want to make the party cry, give him good CHA and the Leadership Feat. Pet Wizards, firing/buffing from on high, in a support position, make an already fearsome opponent even better.
Back to the OP - wipe the floor with 'em. Make 'em learn. Later on, after they're well-seasoned, they'll thank you for it.
You guys got that there are 6 (six) PC's?
It should be impossible for that Fighter to survive even one round. If he manages to act early he may get one hit (getting close, attack) but thats it. I mean there should be at least one spellcaster in that group that can screw the fighter easily. When the fighter manages to get close to them (what means he acted pretty early) and survives the first round (however) its definitly possible that he gets down one PC. But how should he kill a second one? Squishy targets wont stand right next to him probably so he'd have to attack the melee's or move to obe of those squishier targets. No I dont see how he can be a danger to 6 PCs.
edit: How did he even get close to the arcane archer? move + any kind of difficult terrain between them and the fighter wont ever be able to reach him. Ok, maybe he locked them down in a small room or something, that could make the AA get into trouble.
You guys got that there are 6 (six) PC's?
It should be impossible for that Fighter to survive even one round. If he manages to act early he may get one hit (getting close, attack) but thats it. I mean there should be at least one spellcaster in that group that can screw the fighter easily. When the fighter manages to get close to them (what means he acted pretty early) and survives the first round (however) its definitly possible that he gets down one PC. But how should he kill a second one? Squishy targets wont stand right next to him probably so he'd have to attack the melee's or move to obe of those squishier targets. No I dont see how he can be a danger to 6 PCs.
It depends how "organic" the party is, no? Or maybe they're just well-rounded? lol
Wasum, I don't think all seven of them were standing in an empty room when someone said "ready, Fight".
That said, there are things the players can do, and may not have. These range from fighting defensively to allow the rest of the group to arrive, to using combat maneuvers, alchemical gear, or even retreating every once in a while.
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You'd think so, but a fighter with a guisarme and some trip feats can easily put them on their backs and use combat expertise to so some murdering when they try and stand.
From someone that loves making fighters...they are definitely a force to be reconned with when you consider how versatile and/or specialized they can truley be.
Wasum, I don't think all seven of them were standing in an empty room when someone said "ready, Fight".
That said, there are things the players can do, and may not have. These range from fighting defensively to allow the rest of the group to arrive, to using combat maneuvers, alchemical gear, or even retreating every once in a while.
I know - but how do you explain that bthey almost die vs. a fighter?:P
I mean PF is no MMO where you can get killed afk...
And a small room is the only thing I can think off that would make the drop of AA plausible:P
@ossian: yes - sure - but only when they are surprised by that fighter.
I mean there should be at least one spellcaster in that group that can screw the fighter easily.
And I believe here is the problem. In the vast majority of the groups I've been in where I'm not a Wizard, the arcane spell caster is a Sorcerer who's sole focus is Evocation. I mean in the group I'm in right now, our sorcerer was baffled when I asked him why he didn't have Silent Image, and thought I was making it up when I said it could make him effectively invisible for as long as he concentrates (assuming no one touches the "wall" in front of him). When he leveled up, his exact words "What new evocation spells are there?"
A fighter of equivalent level to a group of PCs actually has a pretty good chance of taking at least one PC to negatives. After all, dealing damage quickly is one of the primary tasks a fighter can do.
If this is then coupled with poor rolls from the party (or good rolls from the fighter) and especially if coupled with poor tactics (like not targeting the fighter's Will save, or standing around to be chopped down), then the fighter can very well take multiple PCs to negatives.
It sounds like your group eventually learned to use Will-save spells against this fighter, which presumably means they've learned their lesson. Likely, the next lone fighter you send after them will be taken down much more easily.
Plus, if the fighter had come upon the other half of your party, he'd likely not have been able to do much at all. Both the cleric and the monk should be able to withstand his attacks for a while. He just happened to target the half containing the low-AC members :)
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I think this encounter was ran fine. This teaches the players a couple lessons. Don't split the party. Respect the enemy, I would bet if you threw at the party the same encounter they function better the second time. I would really keep them guessing.
Likely, if nothing else the party will bond realizing the strengths each character has.
Yea - its kinda sad when it comes to sorcerer-builds these days..
but still I'm pretty sure there was a way to at least drop some difficult terrain or something.
I mean any group at least has the potential to get down the fighter and no matter how good the fighters tactics are - he is relying on really bad misstakes of that group.
I've made a few awesome sorcerer builds. I even solo'd a CR 23 with one at level 15.
The only things that ever truly threatened her were the jabberwock (which ultimately killed her) and a mithral golem (which forced her to flee once).
A fighter 10 is a truly powerful character. He probably has room enough for Iron Will and Improved Iron Will, so he's no pushover against mind spells (and even less so if he got half-elf with the dual minded feat). He can take missile shield, which would screw the AA over. He'll probably have AC through the roof and many HPs. He also could hit like a truck.
So, yes, a fighter 10 *is* powerful.
Could be worse if he were antipaladin, though ^^
I've made a few awesome sorcerer builds. I even solo'd a CR 23 with one at level 15.
The only things that ever truly threatened her were the jabberwock (which ultimately killed her) and a mithral golem (which forced her to flee once).
But I bet all your spells weren't Evocation, right?
;)
Spell List at 15th:
7th-level (6/day) – elemental body IV, greater teleport, spell turning, statue6th-level (8/day) – beast shape IV, flesh to stone, mislead, true seeingM, veil
5th-level (8/day) – baleful polymorph, overland flight, telekinesis, transmute rock to mud, wall of stone
4th-level (9/day) – charm monster, dimension door, enervation, secure shelter, stone shape, stoneskinM
3rd-level (9/day) – dispel magic, heroism, major image, protection from energy, shrink item
2nd-level (9/day) – false life, glitterdust, invisibility, make whole, shatter, web
1st-level (9/day) – feather fall, identify, mage armor, magic missile, protection from evil, shield
0-level (at will) – arcane mark, dancing lights, detect poison, ghost sound, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, read magic
So...I guess not...
Though I did get clashing rocks at later levels!
EDIT: Though that was less for the damage and more because I realized it's strength check could smash through small castles.
ummm.... ok:O
Fighters can be nastier than one thinks. and some weapons like the glaive shouldn't be underestimated. Reach is far more powerful an ability than an increase in weapon size.
Reach also helps you get hit less by an enemy's attacks of oppurtunity, allowing you to close in more easily.
Spell List at 15th:
7th-level (6/day) – elemental body IV, greater teleport, spell turning, statue
6th-level (8/day) – beast shape IV, flesh to stone, mislead, true seeingM, veil
5th-level (8/day) – baleful polymorph, overland flight, telekinesis, transmute rock to mud, wall of stone
4th-level (9/day) – charm monster, dimension door, enervation, secure shelter, stone shape, stoneskinM
3rd-level (9/day) – dispel magic, heroism, major image, protection from energy, shrink item
2nd-level (9/day) – false life, glitterdust, invisibility, make whole, shatter, web
1st-level (9/day) – feather fall, identify, mage armor, magic missile, protection from evil, shield
0-level (at will) – arcane mark, dancing lights, detect poison, ghost sound, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, read magicSo...I guess not...
Though I did get clashing rocks at later levels!
EDIT: Though that was less for the damage and more because I realized it's strength check could smash through small castles.
Which tactics did you use statue for? And isnt it a lvl 6 spell?
Did your party try, uhh, Sleep? Hold Person?
Fighters fight good, but don't exactly save very well.
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Which tactics did you use statue for? And isnt it a lvl 6 spell?
Nope, it's 7th-level. I used it for a variety of things, from sinking to the bottom of a body of water quickly, for hiding amidst other statues (which she was quite adept at creating), to gaining hardness in between her turns during combat (like the twins from the Matrix Reloaded, but I became invulnerable rather than insubstantial). The all-day duration, ability to go back and forth as a FREE action, and the fact that I could put it on the whole party made it surprisingly fun.
But you have no AC as a statue, or rather ac 10-7=3?
Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they don't usually move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object's Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (see Table: Size and Armor Class of Objects) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.
A statue spell turns the subject to solid stone, along with any garments and equipment worn or carried. In statue form, the subject gains hardness 8. The subject retains its own hit points. The subject can see, hear, and smell normally, but it does not need to eat or breathe. Feeling is limited to those sensations that can affect the granite-hard substance of the individual's body. Chipping is equal to a mere scratch, but breaking off one of the statue's arms constitutes serious damage. The subject of a statue spell can return to its normal state, act, and then return instantly to the statue state (a free action) if it so desires as long as the spell duration is in effect.
Are you immune to anything that requires a fort save while you're in statue form?
But you have no AC as a statue, or rather ac 10-7=3?
Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they don't usually move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object's Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (see Table: Size and Armor Class of Objects) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.
A statue spell turns the subject to solid stone, along with any garments and equipment worn or carried. In statue form, the subject gains hardness 8. The subject retains its own hit points. The subject can see, hear, and smell normally, but it does not need to eat or breathe. Feeling is limited to those sensations that can affect the granite-hard substance of the individual's body. Chipping is equal to a mere scratch, but breaking off one of the statue's arms constitutes serious damage. The subject of a statue spell can return to its normal state, act, and then return instantly to the statue state (a free action) if it so desires as long as the spell duration is in effect.
Right, but to damage the statue at all the enemy needs an appropriate tool, like a sledgehammer. I'm sure some baddies you fight will be carrying metal great clubs and war hammers, but many others will be stumped.
Of course, incredibly strong monsters could try to simply beat the break DC. Still, it's a situationally very useful spell.
Are you immune to anything that requires a fort save while you're in statue form?
Unless the spell can affect an object, I'd say yes.
derailing the thread guys...
But you have no AC as a statue, or rather ac 10-7=3?
Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they don't usually move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object's Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (see Table: Size and Armor Class of Objects) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.
A statue spell turns the subject to solid stone, along with any garments and equipment worn or carried. In statue form, the subject gains hardness 8. The subject retains its own hit points. The subject can see, hear, and smell normally, but it does not need to eat or breathe. Feeling is limited to those sensations that can affect the granite-hard substance of the individual's body. Chipping is equal to a mere scratch, but breaking off one of the statue's arms constitutes serious damage. The subject of a statue spell can return to its normal state, act, and then return instantly to the statue state (a free action) if it so desires as long as the spell duration is in effect.
Right, but to damage the statue at all the enemy needs an appropriate tool, like a sledgehammer. I'm sure some baddies you fight will be carrying metal great clubs and war hammers, but many others will be stumped.
Of course, incredibly strong monsters could try to simply beat the break DC. Still, it's a situationally very useful spell.
That's if you are trying to break through a wall, not if your trying to break something like a human sized statue. If a guy swings a sword at a statue it will likely chip the statue. The rule you are quoting is more about digging through walls.
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Scooby Doo tactics result in player deaths. Lesson to be learned there.
A level 9 encounter is supposed to be equal to a group of FOUR level 9 players. As a result, when you split up the players the encounter level becomes more dangerous.
Players sometimes have to learn the hard way that splitting up will result in player deaths. On the other hand, if you, the GM split them up (via whatever means) then you should tone down encounters while they are split up to reflect this. Example: the characters are victims of a rock slide splitting up your 6man group into 3 and 3. They wont meet up for around 30minutes. The encounters during that time should be toned down to match a 3man group instead of a 4man group.
- Gauss
Edit: P.S. As a GM I build utterly nasty creatures for my PCs. Sometimes I have to tone down what I am doing. As a result of this I am using the Hero point system in the back of APG to give the players a chance to save themselves when things go badly.
That's if you are trying to break through a wall, not if your trying to break something like a human sized statue. If a guy swings a sword at a statue it will likely chip the statue. The rule you are quoting is more about digging through walls.
I disagree. Those rules are generally worded and refer to ropes, doors and walls only by way of example. It's not an exclusive list. The rule basically gives the DM broad discretion to deem certain weapons ineffective against certain objects. In my view, a granite statue easily qualifies as an object for this purpose.
Ineffective Weapons
Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.
Turning to the Statue spell…
LINKThe only mechanical effects that are explicitly called out are:
Subject gains hardness 8
Subject does not need to eat or breathe
The rest of the spell text could be dismissed as fluff it's true, but that leads to illogical results. For instance, nothing says the statue cannot move.
In my opinion, the better view is that in addition to the aforementioned mechanical effects, the spell actually turns the target into a statue. As such the target should be treated as an object or the purpose of other effects, such as the rules on sundering objects.
Now, in your opinion a sword might be good enough to damage a granite statue. In my opinion, unless that sword is made of adamantium, no way.
IMHO, the GM here was too kind by 'faking' rolls.
in all likelyhood, not faking them probably wouldn't have killed any PCs outright, just dropped them into negatives.
certainly if the cleric PC survived (and that PC didn't have a problem it sounds like), healing should be fine.
as a player, i would be disppointed by GMs who seek to make things easier for poor tactics,
you are already using the CR system which is catered so that PCs almost always triumph,
even if you calculate the CR specifically for the isolated group who initially faced the NPC fighter, i don't think it's out of line at all... just a 'more difficult encounter', which you should face from time to time.
sorry if i think your players are weaklings, but my idea of fun is facing off against an equally matched group, same number of characters, same class level, same stats/wealth. anything else is stealing candy from babies.
Quandary...
GMs have an inherent tactical advantage in coordinating activities during the battle. If the GM is even moderately clever at tactics an equally matched group of the same level and number of characters is almost always going to be a near TPK for virtually any party of separately managed PCs.
The rest of the spell text could be dismissed as fluff it's true, but that leads to illogical results. For instance, nothing says the statue cannot move.
Pretty much this. The spell is 7th-level. It's obviously meant to be used as a buff, not a debuff.
The rest of the spell text could be dismissed as fluff it's true, but that leads to illogical results. For instance, nothing says the statue cannot move.Pretty much this. The spell is 7th-level. It's obviously meant to be used as a buff, not a debuff.
RD, I'm unclear: are you of the opinion that you can or can't move in statue form? My opinion is that you cannot, although this isn't much of a disadvantage in light of the fact that you can shift between the two states at will as a free action.
Quandary...
GMs have an inherent tactical advantage in coordinating activities during the battle. If the GM is even moderately clever at tactics an equally matched group of the same level and number of characters is almost always going to be a near TPK for virtually any party of separately managed PCs.
HEY! I resemble that remark. LOL
Seriously though, Quandary, I am a wargamer as well as an RPG player and my players that I DM over arent. Heck, most DMs that I play with arent so I have to tone down my play when Im with them. As a result, occassionally fudging rolls is necessary. This is a story game and while tactics and strategies should have a place the primary goal here is not to 'win' but to have fun. The definition of what makes a fun game varies from player to player. It is the DMs job to facilitate this.
- Gauss
derailing the thread guys...
Make a separate thread to talk about statue, or use PM.
agree with you gauss, except that i don't think fudging rolls is as necessary as you make it out... not using out-of-character knowledge and not hyper-tweaking every action for optimization is fine (to match level of players, as well as fairness vis-a-vis GM knowledge vs. NPC), but unless you've let your story REALLY come to depend on one (or 2) rolls going a certain way, i think just letting the dice land where they land is the better approach. in other words, i see the 'wargaming optimizing' as well as 'GM vs. NPC knowledge' as distinct issues.
in this case, the encounter was really just mook-level for the whole party, and it was probably harder for the PCs since they were spread out, although since it sounds like the whole party DID catch up (crucial to taking down the NPC), it certainly is within the realm of '1 encounter with entire party counted for APL'. it's probably reasonable to bump the CR by 1 to account for effective difficulty, but having a NPC/monster focusing on 1/2 PCs while excluding others is basically just 'good tactics'. if that means 1 PC ends up dead before the party can win the encounter, well, that's too bad, but well within what should be possible within an encounter. obviously, if the downside to bad tactics is never exposed, players would never change tactics... so: learning experience for them. playing softball lessens that.
Quandry, seriously...sometimes I design an encounter thinking Ive balanced it for the players. Then it gets time and I realize they are dead dead dead. You better believe I am going to fudge a few rolls. IF they were wargamers I wouldn't have to do that.
Put it this way: at my table are two females that have been playing less than a year and are still not what I'd call true gamers (I don't think they ever will be). The other two guys are experienced gamers but not major wargamers.
I spend most of my spare time thinking about tactics, strategies, and games. None of my players do this. I must fudge the rolls a little if I overdesign an encounter.
- Gauss
Edit: P.S. I do separate NPC vs DM knowledge but that actually makes it worse in many cases. One encounter I basically ripped the cleric apart because she was buffing the party. The enemy was an Erinyes and while there were more 'dangerous' character it saw the cleric as the most dangerous due to her supporting the other PCs. in just a couple volleys she was in the negatives and had to burn a hero point to save her life (immediate action).
My group has 6 players and they tend to either break into pairs or small groups to take down enemies. While I know this can end up biting them in the backside eventually. In last night’s match my PCs were able to deal with the undead, necromancers, and enemy guards that were sent their way. But when they came across a fighter the same level as them he carved through them easily.
I will admit there were a few bad roles on their part and some questionable tactics. However the NPC fighter was the same level as half the party members and one level lower than the rest. While in the end they were victorious if it was not for a few “corrected” dice roles on my part most of the party would have gone down.
This should have been an average encounter. More so considering the group was fully rested prior to this. I have noticed that the Fighter in Pathfinders is a strong step up from vanilla 3.5, but someone this encountered felt horribly skewed against the PCs.
Any advice?
Yes, wipe every last one of your PCs out. The encounter was more than fair, and should have been a breeze for the PCs. When PCs make foolish errors or their dice betray them, it is your rare opportunity as DM, to bring the hammer down on your players. Do so with glee. You should not have let them re-roll a single dice. ~KGM
Cranewings, I agree that with a group that has tactical skills that fudging dice is not fun. But perhaps I can put it another way: would you fudge the dice at least a little bit if your 8 year old was playing? I think most people would say yes. Not all players are skilled with tactics. Many are the 'charge forth and kill' type. I will eat those types for lunch. The point of the game is to have fun. Your 8 year old's idea of fun is different than a wargamer's idea of fun.
And just to be clear: I sometimes fudge the dice AGAINST the players, not just for them. It depends on the situation. If an encounter is supposed to be something its not because the dice are rolling badly then the DM by all means should fudge the dice. If the BBEG cannot hit the broad side of a barn because of bad dice rolls the players will not have as much fun.
- Gauss