Before I begin, I should state this is a work in progress. I'm posting what I've done so far in the hopes I can get some critique, and potentially point out any problems I am setting myself up for. I'm also using this as an opportunity to clean up some of the vestiges, buffing crappy ones and clarifying some rule issues for a more stable Pathfinder-ized version.
One more thing: This version assumes only core content from the book is allowed. No 3rd party or online vestiges. The reason for this is that some of those singlehandedly moved the Binder up by somewhere around a tier to a tier and a half, due to exploitable mechanics and generally poor design. So, core books only.
You will need to have access to the original Tome of Magic to compare some of these changes as well, until I get around to the finished version. Levels at which vestiges are gained are unchanged.
So without furthur ado:
THE UPDATED BINDER
Class Skills: 4 + Int
Hit Die: D8
BAB: 3/4
Good Saves: Fort, Will
Replaces and upgrades the bonus feats of the original binder. A binder may, upon binding to a vestige, take a bonus feat of any feat that they are able to learn. This feat lasts for as long as the vestige is bound to the binder, and only 1 feat may be taken for any particular vestige. Bonus feats gained this way may be used to qualify for additional bonus feats gained by Dark Knowledge. For example, a level 10 binder chooses to bind Amon, and takes Dodge as a bonus feat. He then binds Paimon, and chooses to take Mobility as a bonus feat.
Updated Vestiges:
Agares: Fear Immunity replaced by immunity to critical hits. Earth and Air Mastary Scales by +1/-1 for every 4 levels above 7.
Binders get Fear Immunity by default before they even get access to this vestige, and Agares is relatively lackluster, so hopefully these changes make him viable.
Andras: Change Smite Good/Evil to new Pathfinder Paladin Smite.
This is more of a consistency change, but I'm uncertain on it, as that increases Binder power levels by a huge margin.
Aym: Halo of Fire applies to weapon attacks. deals 1d6 bonus damage per 5 binder levels, minimum 1d6.
Aym is a very weak vestige. Adding some bonus fire damage should hopefully increase viability.
Buer: Healing Gift changed to 1d8+1/level as standard action. Increases by 1d8 per 3 binder levels above 7. 2d8+10 at level 10. 3d8+13 at level 13. 4d8+16 at level 16. 5d8+19 at level 19
Buer is very strong, but the original designers wanted to keep the in combat healing low because of the massive amount of out of combat healing. This seems like poor design, since you can get massive amounts of out of combat healing cheaply anyways.
Eligor:Chromatic Strike applies to all attacks now, passively. Element type may be changed as a free action.
Just a consistency change. An extra 1d6 of damage each round is not particularly noticeable by the time you can access Eligor.
Eurynome: DR increases by 1 per 3 binder levels above 7. 3 at 10. 4 at 13. 5 at 16. etc.
Poison Blood changed: Essentially 1d6 damage per 3 levels of binder to any enemy that bites you, and again 1 minute later. Fort negates. The poison is also applied on any natural attacks you possess, but cannot damage more than once per round. i.e. if you hit with any natural attacks, they must make a fort save or take damage, but they don't take damage more than once per round, and do not need to make multiple saves if hit by multiple attacks.
By far one of the weakest vestiges, these changes make Eurynome a good "support" vestige to one of the ones that gives natural attacks, without causing her damage to spiral out of control.
Focalor: Lightning Strike scaling changed to extra 1d6 for every 2 levels above 6. i.e. 5d6 at level 10.
Focalor's Breath duration increases to 1 round per 4 binder levels, minimum 1.
Focalor is strong at low levels, but falls off sharply at mid and high levels. An attempt to rectify this.
Leraje: Definitely needs to be reworked. Uncertain how to approach.
Ronove: Godawful, needs overhaul. Uncertain how to fix.
Tenebrous: When you unbind or do not renew your pact with Tenebrous, Undead commanded with Rebuke stay loyal for a number of extra hours equal to twice your binder level, then turn hostile.
This is to prevent binders from using Tenebrous once to acquire undead followers, then never binding Tenebrous again. If a binder wants undead minions, they need to bind him every day. Seems fair.
Updated Feats:
Rapid Pact Making: Does not require you to draw a seal. Instead the binder merely visualizes the seal of the vestige to be bound, preventing the need for the normal 10 rounds of preparation.
I realize the formatting is a bit clunky, but as I said, this is a work in progress. I will be cleaning this up and attempting reworks of Ronove and Leraje in the next few days.
You will need to have access to the original Tome of Magic to compare some of these changes as well, until I get around to the finished version.
One small nit-pick: the Tome of Magic to which you refer (from 3.5) is not the original one with that name. There was also a Tome of Magic in 2e (but without pact magic).
Aside from that, I'm looking forward to seeing more of your Binder/pact magic conversion to PF! :)
So here's a dumb question. Anyone know why I can't edit my original post now? lol
You can only edit a post within 60 minutes of posing it.
On the whole, I like what you have done here. I am currently playing a binder in a RotRL campaign. He is 7th level and, as some have noted in threads about binders, a bit behind the power curve. Once he hits 8th level that will change.
I am concerned that a binder with access to two vestiges at 6th level might be extremely powerful at that level. Imagine having bound Andras and Amon. The binder will be able to smite with a weapon and with horns in those three rounds when he is not belching a 6d6 line of flame or using Amdras's Murderous Command power. Against a bunch of low-level opponents he would be very formidable. Now imagine if his party has a wizard who casts Haste regularly and he will have an additional smite attack per melee round.
My concern is how user friendly this would be for people new to the Binder class?
The class has always seemed to be a bit like playing chess. It takes a significant investment in learning the class in order to get good at creating a not-sucky character.
Your proposed changes to the vestiges are very good and I would incorporate them if I were a DM. I would suggest some changes as well.
Aym: Scale the fire resistance to 15 at 15th level and 20 at 20th level.
Naberious: Change Disguise Self to Alter Self at 10th level.
Leraje: Scale the bonuses to hide checks and attacks with a bow. Like, Ronove, this vestige is a poor one.
Ronove: Give the binder flurry of blows as a monk. There is not much to recommend this vestige.
Haagenti: Give the binder scaling increases to attacks and damage with axes. At X level (i have no idea what) the binder should be able to reflect polymorph/petrification style spells back on a caster if he makes a save. This is another poor vestige.
Andromalius: Give increasing bonuses to Sense Trickery.
Focalor: You are right about how Focalor falls behind in power at mid-levels, especially with the Lightning Strike.
For his Wind Breath I suggest a variable duration of 1-4 rounds instead of 1 round per four levels. Blindness for even one round after the attack is very effective, especially if the binder has a rogue comapion nearby.
Karsus: Incease the bonus to Heavy Magic by one per four levels after 7th.
Andras: As written the elemental stays with the binder until it is slain and then the binder can summon another one after one hour. The potentially long duration of this power would be formidable if not for the fact that the elemental is small until the binder hits 11th level. I though of having it mirror the spellscar oracle's ability to summon elementals. The elemental summoned would be more powerful at earlier levels but would not last very long and the binder would only be able to call it a limited number of times per day.
Kas: The binder gains Favored Enemy bonuses against undead as if he were a ranger. I thought of this because, with the changes to smite attacks, a binder might have better success against undead by taking Andras instead of Kas.
Balam: Apply the gaze damage to all foes who can see the binder, just as it is for Geryon's gaze attack. I think that is implied in the TOM but was never made explicit.
Geryon: Change the duration of flight to 1 round per five levels.
Chupoclops: The TOM states that the binder's bite attack is poisonous but does not list the poison damage. I would use something like black widow poison from d20pfsrd.com:
Bite—injury; save Fort DC 17; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d3 Con and staggered; cure 2 saves. Save DC is Con-based with a +2 racial bonus.
Shax: Give the binder the ability to breathe water. This was suggested in a thread on the WoTC boards and I agree that it makes sense, especially considering the level at wich a binder can call on Shax.
Desharis (from the WoTC website): The binder should be able to teleport using Infinite Doors more than once per day. Once per five levels seems appropriate.
I would love to see what ideas others have on this.
Question: dark knowledge allows you to choose bonus feats (1-3, depending on level and the number of vestiges bound). The original binder had a very short list of feats from which to choose: Armor Proficency (Medium), Armor Proficency (Heavy), Diligent, Investigator, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Negotiator, Persuasive, Shield Proficiency, and specific binder feats.
So, if I am reading dark knowledge correctly, you are no longer limited to that bonus feat list; you can choose any feat you qualify for; AND you can change up three feats each and every day when you bind your vestiges.
Vestige Level: 1st
Binding DC: 15
Special Requirement: To summon Leraje, you must break an arrow crafted by an elf while calling out her name and title. In addition, Leraje hates Amon and will not answer your call if you are already bound to him.
Sign: You look sickly and diseased, and your skin becomes sallow and pockmarked.
Granted Abilities:
Elf-sight: You gain low-light vision as if you were an elf. If you already have low-light vision, you gain superior low-light vision can see three times as far as your light source would normally illuminate. Thus, a torch that illuminates 20-foot radius would allow you to see clearly up to 60 feet and provides you with shadowy illumination to a distance of 120 feet. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus on all Perception skill checks.
Many Shot: You gain the benefit of the Many Shot feat.
Precise Shot: You gain the benefit of the Precise Shot feat.
Stealth Bonus: You gain a competence bonus on Stealth checks equal to 3 plus one-half your effective binder level (minimum of +4).
Summon Bow: While bound to Leraje, you may summon a masterwork bow (long or short, normal or composite, at the binder’s choice; composite bows match the Strength of the binder exactly) into your hand as a standard action. Once summoned, the bow remains for 5 rounds, plus one round for each of your effective binder levels. Starting at 3rd level, the summoned bow has an enhancement bonus of +1. This enhancement bonus increases by an additional +1 for every four levels gained thereafter (7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th), to a maximum of +5. The binder can choose to forgo an enhancement bonus to instead add one or both of the following special weapon properties to the summoned bow: distance or seeking, with each property taking the place of a +1 enhancement. Summoned bows must have a minimum enhancement of +1 in addition to a special property. A summoned bow comes with a single quiver filled with 20 normal arrows.
At 8th level, the binder can summon Leraje's bow as move action.
At 15th level, the binder can summon Leraje's bow as a swift action.
Weapon Proficiency: While bound to Leraje, you are proficient with the composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow. If you are already proficient with any of these weapons, you instead gain a +1 competence bonus on attack rolls with them.
Reasoning: The flavor text in the description of Leraje doesn’t match up with her granted abilities. Tome of Magic says, “Leraje gives her summoners the ability to bring a bow to hand at will, to fire it with accuracy, and to damage a foe’s sense of self with it. In addition, she gives her hosts keen vision in darkness and skill at hiding.” Now, I think for a 1st-level vestige the ability to “damage a foe’s sense of self” is a bit much. BUT, there is no real reason why her binder can’t summon a bow instead of that horrid Ricochet Shot. I mean, mechanically, it ain’t bad, but in game? How does a single arrow enter someone’s flesh, do damage, and then ricochet and bury itself in an adjacent target’s flesh? So, I replaced it with Many Shot.
Nice work on Leraje, Master Arminas. I too hate the feat Ricochet shot. Your version of Leraje makes it worth taking, especially at low levels.
I can't wait to see what you do with Ronove.
Edit:
I forgot to add this.
Primus: Scale the bonus for Lawful order to +1 per five binder levels or every four levels after 5th. As it is, the +1 bonus is too low to matter beyond very low level play.
The damage bonus from Lawful Attacks should be increased to 2d6 at some higher level.
Primus still seems weak for a third level vestige. Perhaps a fourth power should be added, something like a defense bonus against chaotic attacks.
Amon is also a weak vestige due to his granting only three abilities and two of them very limited in nature. The Fire Breath makes him useful as a secondary vestige at higher levels. Still, a fourth granted power seems warranted but I have no idea what would be a good candidate.
Vestige Level: 1st
Binding DC: 15
Special Requirement: Ronove’s seal must be drawn in the soil under the sky.
Sign: The flesh of your face settles into a frown or a smile (a frown if you succeeded on your binding check, or a smile if you did not) and retains that general expression regardless of your actual feelings. This alteration to your visage does not affect our Charisma, Charisma-based skill checks, or others’ ability to make Sense Motive checks against you.
Granted Abilities:
Cold Iron and Magic Attacks: Your melee attacks (unarmed or with a weapon) count as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. When you attain an effective binder level of 7th, your melee attacks (unarmed or with a weapon) also count as cold iron for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Far Hand: You can use telekinesis, as per the spell except as stated below, as a standard action once each round. You are limited to a maximum weight of 10 lbs per warlock level, and the maximum number of objects you are able to simultaneously manipulate with the violent thrust aspect ability is equal to one-half your effective binder level, rounded down (to a maximum of 10 and a minimum of 1). When using this ability, you have a maximum range of 25 feet plus 5 feet for every two of your effective binder levels. When using far hand for sustained force, this telekinesis lasts only as long as you concentrate. Once you stop concentrating on the sustained force aspect, or if you use the violent thrust or combat maneuver aspect, you cannot use this ability again for 5 rounds.
Fast Movement: You gain a +10-foot enhancement bonus to your base land speed. This bonus increases to +20-feet at 8th level and to +30-feet at 15th level.
Feather Fall: You automatically fall as though under the influence of a feather fall spell. You can suppress or activate this ability as an immediate action. This ability can be activated if you are falling, even if you have already used an immediate action or if you have cast a Quickened spell in your turn.
Ronove’s Fists: You gain the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 points of damage (either lethal or nonlethal at your discretion). At 8th level, your damage with unarmed strikes increases to 2d4. Your damage increases to 2d6 at 15th level. Starting at 4th level, you gain a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls with your unarmed strikes. This enhancement bonus increases by an additional +1 at 8th level and every four levels gained as a binder thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
Reasoning: Ronove has been one of the weakest vestiges since Tome of Magic was released. Providing an enhancement bonus to the Ronove's Fist feature helps the binder to hit; the constant damage bonus more than makes up for the smaller damage dice. Fast Movement now scales slightly, eventually receive a +30' bonus. I changed Feather Fall from the original standard action (I mean, WTF?) to something closer to what the spell does. Cold iron and magic weapons remained the same.
The biggest change was in far hand, which was always wonky. I understand what the developers were trying to do, but the mechanics were just so incredibly bad that it was a terrible ability. The change gives binders with this vestige more options, but the once per 5 rounds keeps it from being too powerful for a 1st level binder (in my opinion).
Anyway, that is my take on how to update Ronove to Pathfinder and bring it on par with other vestiges and abilities.
Wow. Arminas, you're really outdoing yourself. Those changes to Leraje and Ronove completely blow my ideas for a fix out of the water. I was going to make Leraje's ricochet scale with level to eventually hit 7 targets with a max range for each "jump" of 5 feet per 2 binder levels. But to be fair, that idea is only good for getting rid of minions.
So yeah, screw that, your Leraje and Ronove win. But I do have a few ideas that might make them better:
Make the bow have the ability to get Seeking and Keen, instead of Distance. I think that fits the background on Leraje better, and might prove more useful. Also, maybe we should change the way the stealth bonus works to scale at a much higher rate, but only work on rounds where you don't move more than 5 feet? Basically, change her stealth to work for sniping, but not for sneaking around.
For Ronove, I think melee attacks should strike as Lawful around level 13-14. Just seems apt given they can get Chaotic weapons for DR purposes.
And Dark Knowledge is supposed to allow ANY feats, not just the ones the binder had access to in the original book. The reason for that is that the binder is a class based on versatility, but many of the optimal builds for a binder required specializing heavily. The goal is to allow a binder to get a bit more flexibility each day in terms of switching roles, without having to put every single feat into a particular vestige combo, or be utterly gimped when forced out of your preferred focus. I do wonder if that's a bit too strong though.
Anyways, I've got a pretty good looking conversion now. The only thing I'm trying to figure out now is a way to make skills scale without stacking issues. There are a few vestiges who overlap with skill bonuses that are somewhat problematic, like Leraje and Marchosias.
That's not the only problem though. The way skills are handled in pathfinder means that cross class skills are only moderately weaker than class skills, which binders to achieve some rather absurd bonuses for specific skills. Using unmodified 3.5 vestiges as an example: A level 13 binder with 14 dex could have 13 ranks in Stealth, +2 bonus from dex, and then +16 bonus from Marchosias, giving him a whopping +31 to stealth at level 13 before any items or magic are added in. It's even more vexing when you consider some vestige skill bonuses are typed as Competence, but some have no type at all(so they stack with everything).
I am curious if there has been any further development with this idea. The Binder fits the character concept of an NPC I'm bringing in so I was looking for a decent conversion to PF rules.
While there have been some in the past, this one is looking the best so far.
*A strangely attired man draws and chalk circle on the bare stone ground and then fills it in with intricate details. He then kneels before the circle, pours scented oil on the ground from a small bottle and intones a name over and over*
Pact Magic Unbound, Ocultist class is pretty much what you are looking for. It's written by the people who did the superior Secrets of Pact Magic book for 3.5, and is generally regarded as "the Binder, done right".
The real question is whether this will merit spending the money on or not. Alas, my gaming budget is rather small (as evinced by my lack of Pathfinder tags in my name), so a purchase of such a focused sort has to be utterly worth it.
Not to jump in and discourage you here, but ....
Ah, I see that Caedwyr has already pointed out Pact Magic Unbound, a pdf which is pretty much entirely dedicated to a Pathfinderized version of the Binder called "the Occultist". Very solid and well-balanced work.
They also include options for all the core classes to work occult abilities and binding/pact magic into their build. Interesting stuff for the Totem Barbarian and the Cleric in there.
If there are no objections, Master Arminas, I'd like to port your conversions of Ronove and Leraje over to my conversion thread. I've already linked this thread there as well.
The conversions you've done already are quite top-notch, I'd just need to adjust them to fit the Pact Magic Unbound spirit system, which is a bit different from Tome of Magic.
And if anyone wants to check that out, here it is.
Design Manager
