Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I've been wanting to do the cliche thing with the alchemist since the APG came out (the cliche thing being the Doctor Jekyll/Mr. Hyde idea). I have toyed with it ever since, reading advice threads and comments to glean information. I have finally settled on a build using three different archetypes - Chirurgeon, Internal Alchemist and Vivisectionist.
To be clear: I have zero desire to use bombs, as that is what every alchemist I've played with in PFS does; I just find it repetitive. I understand I'm giving up a lot of flexibility and damage by doing this. I also realize there are some severe non-bos between these archetypes - vivisectionist using Kn(nature) for healing while the chirurgeon gets skill focus(healing), for instance.
But I do not mind, as my goals are to play someone fun who can contribute in a lot of different ways and, ultimately, be kind of scary (but not completely ridiculous) when he goes into Master Chymist at 8th level - which I'm pretty sure will only be a one level dip before going back to the alchemist progression (I really like the dual personality idea, and wanted a couple more "changes" per day, and this seems to be the only way to accomplish this).
Now that I think I've come up with something I think would be amusing to play, I have a couple questions for those of you who have delved into this stuff more than I.
1 - Why does the Accelerated Drinker trait not apply to extracts? This seems to be the consensus on the boards, but when I read the extract ability in the alchemist section it says "An extract is cast by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion." It seems, to me, that this line makes the action the same as drinking a potion, so the trait should apply.
2 - I pondered going with the beastmorph archetype instead, as that one seemed to lend itself nicely to the concept. But I'm underwhelmed due to it not granting anything beyond one or two of the abilities listed in the spells that are noted at various levels. Also, it still doesn't grant extra mutagens (which is a real hindrance to the Jekyll/Hyde thing, I realize). I understand the payoff with Pounce is huge, but is that the only reason that people see this archetype as so good? It comes so late that I don't see suffering through the levels just for that purpose. What am I missing?
Like I said, I'm just curious about those two questions. And, again, this is for Pathfinder Society, so I'm starting at 1st and ending at 11th level. Consider that when rendering advice and opinions.
Thanks
Because the developers specifically said it doesn't work in the FAQ.
And if you are going for a different alchemist than most, beastmorph vivisectionist is not the way to go. Half the alchemist builds are that.
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Random note: Chirugeon and Vivisectionist go together better than you might think (particularly thematically). And the Vivisectionist Knowledge (Nature) thing is optional, so if you want to stick with Heal and the Skill Focus you can.
In fact, all three of those go together quite well. I'd go with this idea as is, were I you.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Because the developers specifically said it doesn't work in the FAQ.
Ah. Missed that. Pretty definitive, and not something I can argue with. I will hunt for a different trait, then. Or just use it with potions; not like I won't have those, anyway.
And if you are going for a different alchemist than most, beastmorph vivisectionist is not the way to go. Half the alchemist builds are that.
Heh. Fair enough.
Random note: Chirugeon and Vivisectionist go together better than you might think (particularly thematically). And the Vivisectionist Knowledge (Nature) thing is optional, so if you want to stick with Heal and the Skill Focus you can.
In fact, all three of those go together quite well. I'd go with this idea as is, were I you.
Thank you for the note, and the advice to stick with it. I agree with you - I think he'll be pretty fun, as well as effective.
For those reading this thread in the future... That's the FAQ I was talking about.
The reason is that, while extracts are like potions, they themselves are not potions.
Also, that'd be way too good.
It does however allow you to make use of alchemical allocation in one round, if you are using that extract for combat purposes. You do, of course, require the potion to be in hand.
The trait itself is typically picked by the alchemist just because of round 1 buffing. If it applied to extracts it would be too powerful.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Regarding Accelerated Drinker: The reason is that, while extracts are like potions, they themselves are not potions.
Also, that'd be way too good.
There is an adage in other games I play (specifically Magic): if a particular thing is so good that everyone will either play with it, or be forced to deal with it, then that thing is "broken" or too good and needs adjustment/banning. I suppose I should have paid attention to that when considering the trait. If it worked that way, then I cannot imagine an alchemist build that did not have that trait. Thus, it shouldn't work that way. Makes sense.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I'm resurrecting this thread because the Vivisectionist Alchemist was recently banned for PFS play. So, I have the option to rebuild him. However, the more I look at it, the more I think he just won't be very effective.
In order to be any good at throwing bombs, some feats/discoveries will have to be devoted to the feature, and every one I devote to that will take away from his melee capabilities (which have already been severely hampered by losing the sneak attack). Plus, the Internalist piece no longer makes sense; I chose it because it replaced features that were obsoleted with the choice of Vivisectionist and added to the theme, not because I want to dip into monk. But it also replaces poison use, and it seems poison may be the only way to add back to the melee capability.
At any rate, should I just kill this off and start something entirely different (that is an option of the rebuild)? Or can anyone think of a way that I'm missing that will make this concept work?
Thanks for the help.
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Nothing, eh?
That makes me sad...Well, Laslo, you were a fun idea. Seems you're destined for the trash bin...
Sadly rebuilding a melee Vivisectionist Alchemist into anything else is going to be tough...Vivisectionist was THE melee Alchemist...I can build you a sweet Bomber but building something melee with the loss of Vivisectionist I feel will be lack luster and disappointing for someone that has been playing them for a few months now.
Add a level of barbarian, use str mutagens, make use of feral discovery, use bull strength. You can do some serious damage by stacking large str bonuses. +12 with rage, mutagen, and bull strength. Add in enlarge for increased damage die and +2 str and you get a +14 to str. Gives +7 damage per attack, 3 attacks at full BAB. 21 damage plus die is pretty good melee damage, and that is assuming you started at 10 str.
Add a level of barbarian, use str mutagens, make use of feral discovery, use bull strength. You can do some serious damage by stacking large str bonuses. +12 with rage, mutagen, and bull strength. Add in enlarge for increased damage die and +2 str and you get a +14 to str. Gives +7 damage per attack, 3 attacks at full BAB. 21 damage plus die is pretty good melee damage, and that is assuming you started at 10 str.
I would consider making Barbarian your primary class, and dipping in or two of level of Alchemist to supplement with Mutagen. Barbarian doesn't have to mean Fur Loincloth or Austrian Juicehead; I RP my own Barbarian as being pretty mild-mannered and outgoing until he's raging, when he's a beast. You know, the Hulk.
I see no reason why you can't RP a Barbarian as "Jekyll and Hyde". Just always do the Rage and Mutagen together, at first. Over time, you can explain raging without the Mutagen as "a little bit of Hyde coming out" even though you haven't taken the drug.
For melee, this get's you a near-Full BAB, bigger hit dice, and goodies like Uncanny Dodge and DR. You could also take a look at the Urban Barbarian archetype for things like the different skill sets and the bonuses for crowd work. Note that the Barbarian gets exactly as many skill points as an Alchemist, so if you have a one-level dip in Alchy, skills are mostly unaffected if you stick to Barbarian afterwards. The exception being the Craft: Alchemy bonuses that you probably aren't that interested in.
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You can still make a great melee alchemist without vivisectionist:
Start human or half-orc. If human, you're using simple weapons all the way down; if half-orc, the greataxe is your early weapon, while you'll be picking up a falchion pretty soon. I'm going to assume human for now.
As for archetypes, the beastmorph is amazing. Grabbing different beastial powers, including flight by level 6? Yes pleeeeease.
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8. Pick a trait that improves that low will save, or even consider using your human bonus feat for Iron Will.
Weaponwise as a human, I'm going with the longspear and morningstar combination. If I need a slashing weapon, my only choice is my trusty dagger (until level 2, that is).
1 Extra Bombs (PFS), Iron Will, Toughness, Throw Anything
2 Feral Mutagen
3 Power Attack
4 Vestigial Arm (Carry that darkwood shield), Int +1
5 Extra Discovery: Vestigial Arm
6 Parasitic Twin (Cement that low will save)
7 Extra Discovery: Breath Weapon Bomb
8 Force Bomb (Each breath weapon victim is treated like they were directly hit by the bomb. Knock your enemies prone in a 15-foot cone!), Str +1
At this point I'd go into Master Chymist. He gets bonuses to damage from simple weapons, and you get more uses of your bread-and-butter mutagenic form. The d10 hit die means you're not losing any hit points from your favoured class as well.
Not as high damage as a fighter, but certainly a fun character to play who can be very effective. If you don't like the breath weapon aspect, take it out and give yourself Infusion to help out your party members.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I can't change the race, and he is human. I am allowed to switch out all the class levels that were Vivisectionist, which are all of them. I'm even allowed to change up ability scores and feats, so have plenty of options.
But I don't know that I'd want to go with barbarian. So, notabot and joeyfixit, thanks for the advice, but I think I want a different route, as impressive as that looks. I envisioned him being a very haughty character with an investigative background, capable of playing a support role (light healing) at the same time as being reasonable in a fight. While I have played a barbarian in the past as being anything other than big and dumb, I just don't want to revisit that, yet.
I will say that I've always wanted to do a Hulk-style character, though, and this seems to fit the bill. Thank you for the inspiration.
Mergy, thanks for the pointers. I was contemplating the breath weapon bomb to make up for the loss of sneak attack, as I really wanted to do something other than throw bombs (as I mentioned earlier, every alchemist in PFS does this, and we gamers have an almost pathological desire to be "different" ya know). I'm happy to see someone else come up with that, as well.
The extra arms and the twin...I dunno. I guess it's that "gotta be different" thing coming out in me again and making me resist that idea. I see it too much.
I'm not too worried about will saves. I took the trait (not allowed to change that, either), and can pick up the feat. There is also an ioun stone that can be paired with a wayfinder to stop any possibility of mind control, and coupled with the fact that I rarely see will save situations in PFS, I think it's worth the risk to not pay too much attention to it.
But beastmorph, breath weapon, Master Chymist and the rest are definitely ideas I'm happy with. Thank you.
I appreciate the feedback, everyone. Laslo, it looks like you may be back in business!
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i liked playing my sensai monk, it was a very good support character who at 6th level could give the big dumb fighter true strike.
another character i found i liked was my fighter pally, he was an unstoppable wreckin ball. unbreakable fighter 4/paladin 8 human with racial heritage orc, let me take death initiate line. now they have that awesome new half orc paladin archetype.
also , you can thank ashiel for this one, a preservationist alchemist. you toss pokemon at people, that was an epic character, it sucked, but it was epic.