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Some spoilers below (speficially for the Serpent's Skull AP), so beware.
The new Distant Worlds book has really pulled the curtain back on Golarion's universe, and more importantly (for me), the nature of the Dark Tapestry and similar Lovecraftian elements. Not since Wake of the Watcher have we had so much info. So here's a continuation of my previous thread.
There's yet more evidence that Elder Things are responsible for the ruins at Golarion's north pole. Why do I say this? Under Akiton's description, it's noted that, at the Red Planet's south pole, one can find ruined "...structures completely unlike those on the northern pole, and obviously designed for inhuman forms." In the first part of the "Aliens" chapter, Elder Things are noted as being especially common hibernating on Akiton's south pole.
This suggests to me that Elder Things were some of the earliest inhabitants of both Akiton and Golarion. And if Golarion is anything like Lovecraft's Earth, that could very well mean that Elder Things are responsible for all life on Golarion. Furthermore, if the multiple hints are true, than Elder Things are also the builders of the Orvian vaults. Each Orvian vault is its own unique ecosystem, so one could assume that Golarion was like one huge laboratory for the Elder Things' varied experiments.
To diverge a bit: in The Thousand Fangs Below adventure, we find the Darklands serpentfolk city Ilmurea. Specifically, there's a place called the Runes of the Departed First. This area is preserved by the serpentfolk as a monument to the mysterious original inhabitants of their city, who "...predate the rise of sentient life on Golarion by centuries, if not by millennia." Could the creators of the Runes of the Departed First have been Elder Things? Did the serpentfolk war with them, or merely usurp their city long after the Elder Things abandoned it?
To veer away from Elder Things - Aucturn is apparently a single living entity, which is neat. Also, we have the first tantalizing clues about the nature of the Dominion of the Black. I'm not much of a sci-fi buff, but for anyone who is, does the Dominion remind you of anything? They're described as being heralds of their masters (whom I assume to be Old Ones and/or Outer Gods) who dwell in ships that float between the stars. Madness always follows them. I hope we'll learn more about them in the upcoming book that has a chapter on Ancient Osirion, because it seems the Dominion of the Black had a hand in that civilization's rise.
Another idea, though this may be stretching a bit. There are mysterious "First Ones" who developed all manner of machines to mine Aballon for its mineral wealth. It's possible that these First Ones were mi-go. In Lovecraft's story "The Whisperer in Darkness," an outpost of mi-go are discovered to be mining metal in Vermont. Also, mi-go are noted as skilled engineers and scientists. It's not a huge stretch, then, that mi-go colonized Aballon, devoured its natural resources with their robotic slaves, then left when the planet was depleted.
The reason why I consider this a stretch is because, frankly, "raping a planet's natural resources" is a pretty common motive for aliens in lots of sci-fi stories. There's nothing patricularly Lovecraftian about it. Plus, I don't think mi-go have ever been credited with making sentient robot slaves. So it's a theory, but not a great one.
Like the way you think...
Generic Villain wrote: The reason why I consider this a stretch is because, frankly, "raping a planet's natural resources" is a pretty common motive for aliens in lots of sci-fi stories. There's nothing patricularly Lovecraftian about it. Plus, I don't think mi-go have ever been credited with making sentient robot slaves. So it's a theory, but not a great one. In fact, Lovecraft's "Whisperer in Darkness" is all about the mi-go coming to earth to "rape the planet's natural resources." In that regard, the plot element is SPECIFICALLY Lovecraftian.
In fact, I would be interested to find out just how many sci-fi tropes that "Whisperer" was actually responsible for... the idea of disembodied brains, of disguised alien plants living among us (Invasion of the Body Snatchers was still decades away!), and of aliens coming to earth to take its resources are all STRONG elements in "Whisperer," and I'm not sure that they were at all before that. I'd love to be proved wrong... but it delights me that in this one story, Lovecraft might have come up with the plot of pretty much every alien invasion movie ever... :-)
EDIT: "War of the Worlds" is the one I'm thinking is ACTUALLY the source of that trope now... although it's been forever since I've read that. Were the martians here to steal our resources? Or did they just come here to take over?
In the original story, I think they just showed up, with no real motivation ever given. But it has been forever for me as well.
The Martians were coming here for natural resources, specifically human blood, which they used as food. Their own planet's ecological collapse was conjectured to be the reason for their expansionism, but it's not entirely clear (Martian-human conversations weren't exactly a priority for either species).
Demiurge 1138 wrote: The Martians were coming here for natural resources, specifically human blood, which they used as food. So vampires are actually from Mars?
I always liked the origin/style of vampires from the Necroscope books.
Quote: There's yet more evidence that Elder Things are responsible for the ruins at Golarion's north pole. Where's this info coming from? I read the Inner Sea World Guide recently but for the life of me, can't remember if anything like that was mentioned there. If it is, which part of the book?
Generic Villain wrote: The new Distant Worlds book has really pulled the curtain back on Golarion's universe, and more importantly (for me), the nature of the Dark Tapestry and similar Lovecraftian elements. Not since Wake of the Watcher have we had so much info. So here's a continuation of my previous thread.
How much of Distant Worlds is devoted to this kind of crap? Serious question because if the answer is more than 8 pages, I need to go cancel my hold at the FLGS since I appreciate reading "Lovecraftian elements" about as much as viewing the 'art' of fecal smearing.
HappyDaze wrote: Generic Villain wrote: The new Distant Worlds book has really pulled the curtain back on Golarion's universe, and more importantly (for me), the nature of the Dark Tapestry and similar Lovecraftian elements. Not since Wake of the Watcher have we had so much info. So here's a continuation of my previous thread.
How much of Distant Worlds is devoted to this kind of crap? Serious question because if the answer is more than 8 pages, I need to go cancel my hold at the FLGS since I appreciate reading "Lovecraftian elements" about as much as viewing the 'art' of fecal smearing. TELL US HOW YOU REALLY FEEL!!!
HappyDaze wrote: How much of Distant Worlds is devoted to this kind of crap? Serious question because if the answer is more than 8 pages, I need to go cancel my hold at the FLGS since I appreciate reading "Lovecraftian elements" about as much as viewing the 'art' of fecal smearing. I don't have the book yet, but if it's anything like other Golarion books I'd be surprised if it was anything too overt. I'm not a big Lovecraft fan either, but I think the elements in Golarion tend to be very neatly introduced as 'under the surface' things. The influence is there is you look for it and some of these threads connecting the dots can be rather compelling, but most things could be attributed to more standard fantasy happenings. As someone who doesn't know the mythos well I mostly only notice the Lovecraft elements after seeing them pointed out.
HappyDaze wrote: the 'art' of fecal smearing. Is that a Perform or Craft skill?
HappyDaze wrote: How much of Distant Worlds is devoted to this kind of crap? Serious question because if the answer is more than 8 pages, I need to go cancel my hold at the FLGS since I appreciate reading "Lovecraftian elements" about as much as viewing the 'art' of fecal smearing. Far too little for my liking - the Lovecraft stuff is primarily found on the 2-page writeup for Aucturn (whereas many planets have 4 page writeups), and a little blurb on the Dark Tapestry. So maybe 3 pages out of the whole book.
Toadkiller Dog wrote: Quote: There's yet more evidence that Elder Things are responsible for the ruins at Golarion's north pole. Where's this info coming from? I read the Inner Sea World Guide recently but for the life of me, can't remember if anything like that was mentioned there. If it is, which part of the book?
It's a combination of hints from multiple sources and guesses. From the there's a ruined city called The Nameless Spire at Golarion's north pole. It's "ancient beyond telling" and may have been built by "visitors from another world or plane" or the "'Founders' who delved the Vaults of Orv far below the Darklands."
If you know Lovecraft, in his story At the Mountains of Madness, some researchers discover an ancient city of Elder Things at the north pole. And on Golarion, thre's an ancient city at the north pole. So it's not a huge leap that the Elder Things have established cities on various planets' poles.
Generic Villain wrote: HappyDaze wrote: How much of Distant Worlds is devoted to this kind of crap? Serious question because if the answer is more than 8 pages, I need to go cancel my hold at the FLGS since I appreciate reading "Lovecraftian elements" about as much as viewing the 'art' of fecal smearing. Far too little for my liking - the Lovecraft stuff is primarily found on the 2-page writeup for Aucturn (whereas many planets have 4 page writeups), and a little blurb on the Dark Tapestry. So maybe 3 pages out of the whole book. OK, that's nothing then. It'll be easy enough to overlook those few pages without feeling that the product is a waste of money.
James Jacobs wrote: In fact, Lovecraft's "Whisperer in Darkness" is all about the mi-go coming to earth to "rape the planet's natural resources." In that regard, the plot element is SPECIFICALLY Lovecraftian.
I'll take your word for it. While I appreciate the sci-fi genre, I don't read much of it. It very well could have been "Whisperer" or "War of the Worlds" that started the trope of aliens stealing natural resources, but regardless, it's become a pretty common theme these days. Which is why it feels "generic" to me - it shows up a lot in modern sci-fi movies, tv shows, video games, etc.
If I was more well-read in the sci-fi genre, I'm sure I would be able to better appreciate the theme. So mi-gos are on the table as possible First Ones? That certainly works for me.
Speaking of sci-fi... I'm really curious if the Dominion of the Black reminds anyone of anything. There's very few details in Distant Worlds, but the Dominion certainly have a distinct flavor now. Maybe like Necrons from Warhammer 40K? Borgs from Star Trek? Again, I'm outside my element here.
Generic Villain wrote: If you know Lovecraft, in his story At the Mountains of Madness, some researchers discover an ancient city of Elder Things at the north pole. And on Golarion, thre's an ancient city at the north pole. So it's not a huge leap that the Elder Things have established cities on various planets' poles. "At the mountains of madness" takes place on Antarctica - it's south pole, not north. We wouldn't have giant blind penguins otherwise.
Drejk wrote:
"At the mountains of madness" takes place on Antarctica - it's south pole, not north. We wouldn't have giant blind penguins otherwise.
D'oh! Yes, that. But still, Akiton has similar ruins on its south pole, and as far as I know, Golarion doesn't have an Antarctica equivalent - its north pole is the only viable place to build anything. The main point is, Elder Things have a thing for building at planetary poles.
Generic Villain wrote: Drejk wrote:
"At the mountains of madness" takes place on Antarctica - it's south pole, not north. We wouldn't have giant blind penguins otherwise.
D'oh! Yes, that. But still, Akiton has similar ruins on its south pole, and as far as I know, Golarion doesn't have an Antarctica equivalent - its north pole is the only viable place to build anything. The main point is, Elder Things have a thing for building at planetary poles. IIRC, the Elder Things built in Antarctica before it was at the pole.
Or at least in it's tropical past, which would have to when the continents were arranged differently.
Generic Villain wrote: D'oh! Yes, that. But still, Akiton has similar ruins on its south pole, and as far as I know, Golarion doesn't have an Antarctica equivalent - its north pole is the only viable place to build anything. The main point is, Elder Things have a thing for building at planetary poles. Golarion southern hemisphere is still mostly enigma. The only known map of Golarion is rather vague but shows no south-pole continent.
Of course the lack of south-pole continent could be the reason why designers placed Elder Thing city at north pole - it would also make it closer to PC-frequented area.
However, the important part is that thejeff wrote: the Elder Things built in Antarctica before it was at the pole.
I actually came across the Nameless Spires today and had that very same thought. Also, in the Dragon Empires gazetteer, they mention several Lovecraftian hints, including the center of the Wall of Heaven mountains being connected to the Plateau of Leng (M something Leng).
That's just the kind of Lovecraft I like in my games - brooding, creeping, ever-present and under the surface, at the far edges of things, and half bathed in allusion.
Now, my question... where to put Zoogs? And of course, a forest with Zoogs must also have hidden lost ways to the land of Dreams.
Drejk wrote:
However, the important part is thatthejeff wrote: the Elder Things built in Antarctica before it was at the pole.
Definitely quite important. But who is to say that the same can't hold true for Golarion? I'm sure its poles and continents have varied through the millenia just as with Earth. There was probably a Golarion equivalent of Pangaea, for example, and maybe what is today the Crown of the World was once a lush equitorial jungle.
TwiceGreat wrote:
Now, my question... where to put Zoogs? And of course, a forest with Zoogs must also have hidden lost ways to the land of Dreams.
I'm hoping Paizo eventually does something with the Dreamlands, since that's another of Lovecraft's playgrounds. Outer space and underground have been covered, deep ocean is fairly covered (and will be moreso in the upcoming pirate AP), but the Dreamlands? Still a mystery. Oh and of course Leng. How I'd love to see some more Leng.
Though in another way, maybe not. As you say, Lovecraftian elements are sometimes best left lurking just out of sight, all ominous like. Fleshing them out too much can ruin them.
My new homebrew campaign setting I am designing has elements of the Dreamlands incorporated... But it is still deliberately vague and hard to access.
Basically there is one country of relative stability in the world, and the farther you get from it the more strange things get and reality kind of breaks down. (and then there is eventually an edge, and anything beyond that is certain doom filled with all kinds of eldritch horrors)
So if you go into this 'borderland' area in between the stable country and the endless doom, you can potentially reach the equivalent of the Dreamlands... although the whole area is so highly morphic and inconsistent in nature that there is no way to really know where the entrance is...
/end threadjack
I am still working on the next part of my game, but it's in my mind that there will be Ghouls, and Ghoul tunnels, and some ghoul tunnels end up in the Underworld of the Land of Dreams. I like the idea of the Darklands losing their logic and sense the deeper you go, so one tunnel might lead to Orv, one might lead to Tian Xia, one might lead to somewhere in Abaddon, and one might lead to the Vaults of Zin and one might even lead to a certain graveyard on Copps Hill...
I like the idea behind that Interzone. It almost sounds like the Dreamlands themselves.
I think I've just had this overwhelming urge to put my characters on a ship ala The white Ship and explore those strange and endless countries encountered on it. All in all, I am with you guys on keeping the Dreamlands vague and inaccessible, perhaps existing in actual dreams and perhaps, later, hinted at or viewed in waking reality to give a strange twist.
thejeff wrote: IIRC, the Elder Things built in Antarctica before it was at the pole.
Or at least in it's tropical past, which would have to when the continents were arranged differently.
There is a theory that our own earth's crust, shifted and rotated 90 degrees at some time in the past. Before written history. The theory goes on to hypothesize (is that a word) that the lost city of Atlantis is under the Antarctic ice.
Hmm...the Atlanteans were actually Elder Things.
I love the little Lovecraftian elements they are sprinking into the world. Nothing too overt so the people who hate Lovecraft are turned off, but enough to make us HLP nerds start tryingh to connect the dots. Which in turn, tends to drive us crazy.
Hmm, James Jacobs = Nyarlathotep?
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