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So... first Faiths of Balance tells us that the only Neutral deity to have paladin followers is Abadar. We get the code and stuff.
Then we have Tide of Honor which gives us SKR's article on Irori (no paladins mentioned, monks, clerics and druids mentioned as clergy) and the adventure itself gives us... a paladin of Irori.
Is this an oversight in axing out the adventure writer's inconsistency with canon, OR are there any paladins of Irori after all?
Uhm...You may want to add a spoiler to your post, since you are talking about specific AP content.
Well, "Faiths of Balance" says that Abadar is the only neutral god who "supports and promotes" an order of Paladins. You could argue that this means Irori still HAS Paladins, they are just more rare and disorganized. This would sort of fit with the Irori article too (if they are rare to the point of not being worthy of mention).
Or, you know, it is a mistake. But since it isn't one that requires a reworking of fundamental alignment rules and the order of the universe, I think this one will slide by more easily than the poor (but awesome and unique) Paladin of Asmodeus.
How is that non-Canon? The tenets of Irori's faith line up pretty well with the Paladin code actually. I'm playing a Paladin of Irori in a campaign. He's the motivator/exemplar type rather than the swift judgement of the righteous type.
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Actually, Irori's faith is very selfish - it's all about becoming the perfect you, everything else around is relevant only if it relates to one's quest of self-improving. So there's not much to protect, defend and selflessly sacrifice oneself to - Abadar gets Paladins because shielding the civilization against danger is something quite in line with Paladin ethos...oh snap, this is becoming... *A PALADIN THREAD*!!!! Run, before Kelsey finds us!
Man, I was just about to make a paladin of Irori. As a psuedo-Buddhist, it made perfect sense to me.
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The 'one away' rule opens up a ton of dieties that may or may not fit with one's personal preconceptions of the Paladin, flavorwise, particularly if you count the NG or LN members of the Dwarven sub-pantheon or the LN Eldest of the First World.
Dranngvit, described as a spiteful goddess of vengence, for instance, would require a bit more thought than Iomedae (who practically has 'made for Paladins' stamped on her butt), as might Magrim, god of the underworld. Even the Empyreal Lord Arshea, a patron of sexuality, might 'feel' off for anyone who thinks of Paladins as sexless drones.
Agreed there, Set. I think the important part of this is that as long as paladins follow their code, Paladins can come in more than just heavy plate yelling "SMITEY!"
I can see paladins of Irori as "protectors of Enlightenment", either serving and shielding those who seek to achieve it, or else seeking out and confronting threats to enlightenment. Deceivers, corruptors, and people selling Phil's Potions Of Instant Enlightenment would all be subject to smiting.
Or they would be truly legendary senseis.
Also consider the concept of the bodhisvatta.
Paladins of Irori were established in the setting before Paizo completed the Pathfinder RPG. It's nothing new, they're just extremely few in number.
The only reason they are not mentioned in the Inner Sea World Guide is that the entire section on the classes in Golarion was removed. In the old Campaign Setting book that was written for the 3.5 rules, in the classes section it said something like they existed but were rare. But even without a mention in any of the Golarion books, since there is nothing mechanically illegal about them, you can allow them in your version of Golarion, just like the Pathfinder Society allows them in their version of Golarion for Organized Play.
Was the author the same dude who said in Faiths of Purity that Desna and Cayden don't have Inquisitors? :-/
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One thing that could help flesh out a Code of Conduct and flavor for Irori paladins is seeing how they would differentiate from paladins of the Empyreal Lord Korada.
As for going non-canon, when canon gets in the way of fun for you and your group, break it. Campaign settings are like untouched music tracks and sound samples. GMs and players are remixers. They can make some awesome and fresh material with those tracks.
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One thing that could help flesh out a Code of Conduct and flavor for Irori paladins is seeing how they would differentiate from paladins of the Empyreal Lord Korada.
As for going non-canon, when canon gets in the way of fun for you and your group, break it. Campaign settings are like untouched music tracks and sound samples. GMs and players are remixers. They can make some awesome and fresh material with those tracks.
Not me, I take perverse joy in making sure that the games I run are going by the letter according to the written canon, and any contradictions/deviations I find in it drives me nutty. It goes by the book, or it gets the hose again.
Yes, I am a lawyer. It's a professional thing.
Yes, that's why I groan at you so often, Mik ;-P
Well, Faiths of ballance mostly discuss Avistani churches, don't they? Perhaps there are more Paladins of Irori inDragon Empires or Vudra, but not in Avistan or Garund
Creative Director
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So... first Faiths of Balance tells us that the only Neutral deity to have paladin followers is Abadar. We get the code and stuff.
Then we have Tide of Honor which gives us SKR's article on Irori (no paladins mentioned, monks, clerics and druids mentioned as clergy) and the adventure itself gives us... a paladin of Irori.
Is this an oversight in axing out the adventure writer's inconsistency with canon, OR are there any paladins of Irori after all?
Oversight on Sean's part, I suspect. There ARE paladins of Irori. Not a lot. Very few, in fact. But they exist.
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...Iomedae (who practically has 'made for Paladins' stamped on her butt)...
Eva Widermann-made illustration of this now!!!
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Oversight on Sean's part, I suspect. There ARE paladins of Irori. Not a lot. Very few, in fact. But they exist.So... first Faiths of Balance tells us that the only Neutral deity to have paladin followers is Abadar. We get the code and stuff.
Then we have Tide of Honor which gives us SKR's article on Irori (no paladins mentioned, monks, clerics and druids mentioned as clergy) and the adventure itself gives us... a paladin of Irori.
Is this an oversight in axing out the adventure writer's inconsistency with canon, OR are there any paladins of Irori after all?
OK, I can roll with that. But now, at risk of following an annoying trend: JAMES JACOBS! Can I haz an Irori Paladin code cheezburger? 'Cause that leaves them as the only Paladins without their code spelled out as per Faiths of ... books.
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Creative Director
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OK, I can roll with that. But now, at risk of following an annoying trend: JAMES JACOBS! Can I haz an Irori Paladin code cheezburger? 'Cause that leaves them as the only Paladins without their code spelled out as per Faiths of ... books.
Irori's paladins don't have an organized "knighthood," which is the main reason they're rare. They're individuals. That said... I thought that we put an Irori paladin code into the Dragon Empires Primer... I know I requested one to be in there...
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OK, I can roll with that. But now, at risk of following an annoying trend: JAMES JACOBS! Can I haz an Irori Paladin code cheezburger? 'Cause that leaves them as the only Paladins without their code spelled out as per Faiths of ... books.Irori's paladins don't have an organized "knighthood," which is the main reason they're rare. They're individuals. That said... I thought that we put an Irori paladin code into the Dragon Empires Primer... I know I requested one to be in there...
I've triple-checked the Primer and no code there, alas. I'd be super-happy if you guys could whip one up and post it here or even better ... blogify it for all to see!
I'd be super-happy if you guys could whip one up and post it here or even better ... blogify it for all to see!
I wholeheartedly support this idea!
I've triple-checked the Primer and no code there, alas. I'd be super-happy if you guys could whip one up and post it here or even better ... blogify it for all to see!OK, I can roll with that. But now, at risk of following an annoying trend: JAMES JACOBS! Can I haz an Irori Paladin code cheezburger? 'Cause that leaves them as the only Paladins without their code spelled out as per Faiths of ... books.Irori's paladins don't have an organized "knighthood," which is the main reason they're rare. They're individuals. That said... I thought that we put an Irori paladin code into the Dragon Empires Primer... I know I requested one to be in there...
Yes, James...ENLIGHTEN us!
Yeah, it's not a paradigm-shattering as PoA's, but still, I have a player looking after a "funky paladin" idea, currently he's on Shelyn, but if he hears of Irorian Pals he'll be all over it and I do hate running a non-canon Golarion. It makes me feel dirrrrty.
People like trying out weird stuff, and Jacobs already confirmed that Irorian Paladins do exist.
As for your talk against a non-canon Golarion, I can only say that puritans like you make me feel dirty and rather ashamed of being a fan of the same series, no matter what adveture path (or even campaign setting) I am playing in. Also, I hope we get to see a custom code for Paladins of Kurgess soon enough. He's an awesome one.
Actually, I look forward to seeing Paladin codes for all the lesser NG and LG (and LN, of course) deities on Golarion, just for the sake of diversity and interesting RP options.
Ha! They haven't yet posted all the APG iconics. And you want them to on-demand, whip up a NPC for you on the spot?
Someone actually cares about iconics statblocks?
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Creative Director
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I've triple-checked the Primer and no code there, alas. I'd be super-happy if you guys could whip one up and post it here or even better ... blogify it for all to see!OK, I can roll with that. But now, at risk of following an annoying trend: JAMES JACOBS! Can I haz an Irori Paladin code cheezburger? 'Cause that leaves them as the only Paladins without their code spelled out as per Faiths of ... books.Irori's paladins don't have an organized "knighthood," which is the main reason they're rare. They're individuals. That said... I thought that we put an Irori paladin code into the Dragon Empires Primer... I know I requested one to be in there...
Dang.
And unfortunately, "whipping one up" isn't easy. The act of designing and writing things like this takes a fair bit of time—which is why I'd been hoping to pay a freelancer to do so. Anyway... it apparently doesn't exist yet, so maybe someday we'll get around to doing an Irori paladin code...
... but at the same time, there's no organized Irori paladinhoods, so if ANY one of the deities who has paladins doesn't ever get a code writeup... Irori's the one.
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And unfortunately, "whipping one up" isn't easy. The act of designing and writing things like this takes a fair bit of time—which is why I'd been hoping to pay a freelancer to do so. Anyway... it apparently doesn't exist yet, so maybe someday we'll get around to doing an Irori paladin code...
... but at the same time, there's no organized Irori paladinhoods, so if ANY one of the deities who has paladins doesn't ever get a code writeup... Irori's the one.
IIRC that was the reason for the omission: Abadar is the only non-good deity who has orders of paladins, so that's the only non-good god who gets a paladin code writeup.
And it doesn't hurt that Irori's followers are all individuals with individual goals for enlightenment, so his paladins are likely to have their own individual codes based on their own ideal path toward enlightenment. One paladin's code may include "slay no animal unless it attacks you first, for animals are the reincarnated souls of other beings trying to overcome negative karma" another's may be "overcome previous inferior incarnations by challenging yourself to defeat every kind of dangerous animal known to exist."