What types of magical items can be upgraded?

[Rycaut]

In reading over the Pathfinder Society Guide (the downloadable one) it says that "magical items with a +1 can be upgraded to a +2 for the difference in price"

But nowhere does it clarify what are included in this as "items"

I'm fairly sure that this includes magical weapons and armor - both adding additional +'s or adding a legal weapon or armor trait (to an existing +1 weapon or armor)

But does this include upgrading say a Cloak of Resistance +1 to a +2?

Or a Ring of Protection +1 to a +2?

And what about wondrous items that have +'s (specifically I'm thinking abou items that give ability enhancement bonuses)

Can you upgrade say a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 to one that is +4?

And could you upgrade a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 to a Headband of Mental Prowess +2 (i.e. same + but adding a second ability to the item much as you might make a weapon a Frost weapon...)

My 6th level Cleric is facing this very dilemma - he has a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 and has nearly 6000gp - enough to possibly get that very useful Headband of Mental Prowess (Wis/Chr) +2 but not enough if he has to sell his existing headband and then buy the Mental Prowess one..

[Paz]

Unless I've missed something subtle, you can do all of the above, as long as the item you're upgrading to is explicitly listed in the book.

On the legality of upgrading a single stat item to a multi-stat item, there is a citation here.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

From the PFS FAQ, bolding is mine:

Quote:

Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?

Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally. Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

[Don Walker]

Paz wrote:

Unless I've missed something subtle, you can do all of the above, as long as the item you're upgrading to is explicitly listed in the book.

On the legality of upgrading a single stat item to a multi-stat item, there is a citation here.

Paz, the citation you mention has been overruled by the FAQ. For example you may upgrade a Belt of Giant Strength from +2 to +4, but you may not change it into a Belt of Physical Might +2.

[Dragnmoon]

Don Walker wrote:

Paz, the citation you mention has been overruled by the FAQ. For example you may upgrade a Belt of Giant Strength from +2 to +4, but you may not change it into a Belt of Physical Might +2.

I don't read that in the FAQ at all...

Nothing in the FAQ hints that they changed that rule to you can't.

[Don Walker]

Dragnmoon wrote:

Nothing in the FAQ hints that they changed that rule to you can't.

The thing is, it doesn't say you can. And since the Guide says that messageboard posts are not official, it would have to appear in the Guide or the FAQ (or Additional Resources) to be legal.

And though messageboard posts may not be cited (anymore), this specific case was brought up during discussions to update the FAQ and the decision was made not to allow an item to upgrade into an item with a different name. It can't be upgraded because it is not the same item.

[Callarek]

Don Walker wrote:

Dragnmoon wrote:

Nothing in the FAQ hints that they changed that rule to you can't.

The thing is, it doesn't say you can. And since the Guide says that messageboard posts are not official, it would have to appear in the Guide or the FAQ (or Additional Resources) to be legal.

And though messageboard posts may not be cited (anymore), this specific case was brought up during discussions to update the FAQ and the decision was made not to allow an item to upgrade into an item with a different name. It can't be upgraded because it is not the same item.

Don, gotta say that, if it isn't in the rules/FAQ, it isn't disallowed.

Otherwise, by your definition, you couldn't upgrade a +1 Longsword into a +1 Flaming Longsword, since they don't have the same name.

Much less upgrading that +1 Flaming Longsword into a +1 Holy Flaming Longsword.

[Don Walker]

Callarek wrote:

Don, gotta say that, if it isn't in the rules/FAQ, it isn't disallowed.

Otherwise, by your definition, you couldn't upgrade a +1 Longsword into a +1 Flaming Longsword, since they don't have the same name.

Much less upgrading that +1 Flaming Longsword into a +1 Holy Flaming Longsword.

Really? I don't know what to say to this logic.

As far as your example, you refer to weapon upgrades which is clearly explained in the Guide, the FAQ, and the Core Rulebook. My example refers to items, as in Wondrous Items.

[TetsujinOni]

Callarek wrote:

Don Walker wrote:

Dragnmoon wrote:

Nothing in the FAQ hints that they changed that rule to you can't.

The thing is, it doesn't say you can. And since the Guide says that messageboard posts are not official, it would have to appear in the Guide or the FAQ (or Additional Resources) to be legal.

And though messageboard posts may not be cited (anymore), this specific case was brought up during discussions to update the FAQ and the decision was made not to allow an item to upgrade into an item with a different name. It can't be upgraded because it is not the same item.

Don, gotta say that, if it isn't in the rules/FAQ, it isn't disallowed.

Otherwise, by your definition, you couldn't upgrade a +1 Longsword into a +1 Flaming Longsword, since they don't have the same name.

Much less upgrading that +1 Flaming Longsword into a +1 Holy Flaming Longsword.

You are mistaken. a +2 (Belt of giant Strength) is not the same name as a +2 (Belt of Physical Might), with the same enhancement level (vastly different cost, but...) A +1, flaming (longsword) and a +1, flaming, holy (longsword) are the same name with different enhancements.

The current FAQ is correct by RAW, and the ruling from the board was a divergence.

[Dragnmoon]

Once again, I am not seeing what you guys are seeing in the FAQ...

FAQ..

FAQ wrote:

Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Guide Page 19..

Guide Page 19 wrote:

For ease of play in Pathfinder Society, a masterwork item can always be upgraded to a +1 item without paying for the masterwork cost again. Instead, you pay the difference between the cost of the +1 item and that of the masterwork item. This rule also applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a +2 item and so on—you never have to repay the original cost or sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step. Note that this only applies to items of the same kind—you can’t, for example, turn your masterwork rapier into a +1 greatsword. A mundane item cannot be upgraded to masterwork, nor can non-magical aspects of equipment be upgraded (such as the strength rating on a composite bow).

Nowhere does it state that the clarification that mark said is incorrect.

How I see it is the rules allow you to do it, and those that don't see that are reading the rules incorrectly, and mark only clarified that, he did not change any rule.

Now unless the VCs know something else we don't because of their super secret Forums, neither the FAQ nor the rules from the guide change how Stat enhancement items work for upgrading them from what mark clarified.

[TetsujinOni]

Dragnmoon wrote:

Once again, I am not seeing what you guys are seeing in the FAQ...

FAQ..

FAQ wrote:

Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Guide Page 19..

Guide Page 19 wrote:

For ease of play in Pathfinder Society, a masterwork item can always be upgraded to a +1 item without paying for the masterwork cost again. Instead, you pay the difference between the cost of the +1 item and that of the masterwork item. This rule also applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a +2 item and so on—you never have to repay the original cost or sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step. Note that this only applies to items of the same kind—you can’t, for example, turn your masterwork rapier into a +1 greatsword. A mundane item cannot be upgraded to masterwork, nor can non-magical aspects of equipment be upgraded (such as the strength rating on a composite bow).

In what fashion is +2 (Belt of Giant Strength) the same name as +2 (Belt of Physical Might, Strength and Dexterity)?

[Jiggy]

Hm, here's another question: what about the "fortification" armor quality? Can you upgrade from light to moderate to heavy? Given that it's a quality and not a named item, and it's priced based on plusses, I'm leaning toward yes.

[TetsujinOni]

Jiggy wrote:

Hm, here's another question: what about the "fortification" armor quality? Can you upgrade from light to moderate to heavy? Given that it's a quality and not a named item, and it's priced based on plusses, I'm leaning toward yes.

I don't see support either way for that question. The same would apply to the various energy / energy burst enhancements for weapons. Seems like a core rules FAQ sort of question.

[BigNorseWolf]

So let me see if i understand this.

I can buy elven chain (non magical) and upgrade it to elven chain +1, and later to elven chain +2.

But i cannot buy Rhino hide (which comes as +2 hide armor) and upgrade it to a plus 3 .

[Callarek]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

So let me see if i understand this.

I can buy elven chain (non magical) and upgrade it to elven chain +1, and later to elven chain +2.

But i cannot buy Rhino hide (which comes as +2 hide armor) and upgrade it to a plus 3 .

Correct.

Even better:

You can buy masterwork Hide armor for 165 gp
Upgrade it to +1 for another 1k gp
Upgrade it again to +2 for an additional 3k gp
Finally, you can upgrade it into Rhino Hide armor for another 1k gp, at which point it must be made of rhinoceros hide, even if it was defined as something else in the past, gains the additional -1 ACP, and the +2d6 on charge attack damage.

Another, similar oddity of the FAQ entry:
Masterwork chainmail for 300 gp
Upgrade it to +1 for an additional 1K gp
Upgrade it to +2 for another 3K gp
Upgrade it to +3 for another 5K gp (total so far: 9,300 gp)
Yo can then upgrade it one more time, for an additional 13,100 gp, to make it become Celestial Armor, where it suddenly becomes bright silver or gold, changes into light armor, bumps the max Dex allowed by 6, reduces the ACP by 2 beyond the normal reduction for masterwork, and reduces the ASF by half. Oh, and allows the wearer to use Fly on command once a day.

Um, yeah.

And that still ignores things like whether either of the above named armors can be made out of special materials, either dragonhide instead of rhino for the Rhino Hide (probably not); or mithril or adamantine for the Celestial.

[Paz]

Callarek wrote:

Another, similar oddity of the FAQ entry:

Masterwork chainmail for 300 gp
Upgrade it to +1 for an additional 1K gp
Upgrade it to +2 for another 3K gp
Upgrade it to +3 for another 5K gp (total so far: 9,300 gp)
Yo can then upgrade it one more time, for an additional 13,100 gp, to make it become Celestial Armor, where it suddenly becomes bright silver or gold, changes into light armor, bumps the max Dex allowed by 6, reduces the ACP by 2 beyond the normal reduction for masterwork, and reduces the ASF by half. Oh, and allows the wearer to use Fly on command once a day.

I don't see how that last step is possible; the FAQ entry says the named armour being upgraded to must be made from 'the same basic material'. If it's silver or gold and light, that's clearly not the case.

[BigNorseWolf]

I don't see how that last step is possible; the FAQ entry says the named armour being upgraded to must be made from 'the same basic material'. If it's silver or gold and light, that's clearly not the case.

Its silver or gold colored: ie, fluff, not special material.

[Rycaut]

Quote:

In what fashion is +2 (Belt of Giant Strength) the same name as +2 (Belt of Physical Might, Strength and Dexterity)?

Well the craft requirements for the two items are very similar - with the addition of one or more other enhancement bonus spells being added to the same basic crafting requirements for the Belt of Giant Strength.

It could be argued that adding a second ability to an enhancement item is similar to adding a special power to a magical weapon.

On a more practical point allowing this doesn't penalize players who buy wondrous items over low level magical weapons or armor when they reach mid-levels and want to enhance/replace those items. (i.e. if you buy a masterwork weapon at level 1, upgrade it to a +1 weapon at level 2-3, you probably can upgrade it to a +2 a few levels later or add an ability to it then. But if at level 2-3 or so you buy a headband or belt (giving you +2 to one trait) you will need to sell that item and replace it instead of upgrading it when you want add a second trait.

[Don Walker]

At the risk of confusing you all even more ...

Mike Brock has posted on the super secret boards that Mark's clarification of the Wondrous item upgrade rule is correct. The upgraded item does not need to have the same name. It just needs to be a legal item and has to have (and maintain) the same effect as the original when you add a new effect. Please don't look for loopholes in these words. This is just the gist of it. Refer to Mark's clarification via the link in PAZ's first post in this thread, for correct wording.

It turns out my misunderstanding came from an example I posted a few months ago for clarification following the FAQ Final Wording for the Magic Item Upgrades. There was no correction to my example and so I assumed incorrectly that my example was correct.

I am sorry for any confusion and hope this makes everything crystal clear.

[Dragnmoon]

Don Walker wrote:

Mike Brock has posted on the super secret boards

Also known as the place we make fun of Dragnmoon!

[Mathwei ap Niall]

Don Walker wrote:

At the risk of confusing you all even more ...

Mike Brock has posted on the super secret boards that Mark's clarification of the Wondrous item upgrade rule is correct. The upgraded item does not need to have the same name. It just needs to be a legal item and has to have (and maintain) the same effect as the original when you add a new effect. Please don't look for loopholes in these words. This is just the gist of it. Refer to Mark's clarification via the link in PAZ's first post in this thread, for correct wording.

It turns out my misunderstanding came from an example I posted a few months ago for clarification following the FAQ Final Wording for the Magic Item Upgrades. There was no correction to my example and so I assumed incorrectly that my example was correct.

I am sorry for any confusion and hope this makes everything crystal clear.

It's still a little murky for me on a point or two. Hope you can clarify for me this last question. Is this legal under the new FAQ rules?

Mithril chainmail for 4300 gp
Upgrade it to +1 for an additional 1K gp
Upgrade it to +2 for another 3K gp
Upgrade it to +3 for another 5K gp (total so far: 13,300 gp)
Upgrade it one more time, for an additional 9100 gp, to make it become Celestial Armor, where it suddenly becomes bright silver or gold and changes into light armor and gets all the perks of being a named item.

Whether it keeps the perks of being Mithril or not is semi-important but I'm mostly just trying to find out if it's legal to even build a named object out of another material.

[Thorkull]

Dragnmoon wrote:

Don Walker wrote:

Mike Brock has posted on the super secret boards

Also known as the place we make fun of Dragnmoon!

Nobody makes fun of you, as far as you know.

[Alizor]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

It's still a little murky for me on a point or two. Hope you can clarify for me this last question. Is this legal under the new FAQ rules?

Mithril chainmail for 4300 gp
Upgrade it to +1 for an additional 1K gp
Upgrade it to +2 for another 3K gp
Upgrade it to +3 for another 5K gp (total so far: 13,300 gp)
Upgrade it one more time, for an additional 9100 gp, to make it become Celestial Armor, where it suddenly becomes bright silver or gold and changes into light armor and gets all the perks of being a named item.

Whether it keeps the perks of being Mithril or not is semi-important but I'm mostly just trying to find out if it's legal to even build a named object out of another material.

If Celestial Armor was made of mithral you would be correct. However it is not. As such you cannot upgrade a suit of mithral chainmail to a suit of celestial armor.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

Kyle Pratt wrote:

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

It's still a little murky for me on a point or two. Hope you can clarify for me this last question. Is this legal under the new FAQ rules?

Mithril chainmail for 4300 gp
Upgrade it to +1 for an additional 1K gp
Upgrade it to +2 for another 3K gp
Upgrade it to +3 for another 5K gp (total so far: 13,300 gp)
Upgrade it one more time, for an additional 9100 gp, to make it become Celestial Armor, where it suddenly becomes bright silver or gold and changes into light armor and gets all the perks of being a named item.

Whether it keeps the perks of being Mithril or not is semi-important but I'm mostly just trying to find out if it's legal to even build a named object out of another material.

If Celestial Armor was made of mithral you would be correct. However it is not. As such you cannot upgrade a suit of mithral chainmail to a suit of celestial armor.

Well there's the question. It never states what Celestial Armor is made of anywhere in the description. It tells us what color it is and what properties the armor has but nothing about the materials used to make it.

[Alizor]

Well, it does, actually. Every other mithral (or special) substance has the material listed immediately next to the "base item." I.e. the Mithral Full Plate of Speed is a "+1 mithral full plate."

Dwarven plate is "... full plate made of adamantine..."

A mithral shirt is "... made of very fine mithral..."

Since it doesn't mention a specific material, it is made of what all other armors are made of, normal plain old steel.

[Mike Schneider]

So theoretically if my STR 7 halfling wanted to sluggishly wade around in crappy non-mithral heavy-ass chainmail medium sink-like-brick armor forever and ever, he could finally upgrade it to Celestial Armor after becoming a sufficiently famous sluggish halfling around 7th or 8th level?

Schweet!

[Callarek]

Mike Schneider wrote:

So theoretically if my STR 7 halfling wanted to sluggishly wade around in crappy non-mithral heavy-ass chainmail medium sink-like-brick armor forever and ever, he could finally upgrade it to Celestial Armor after becoming a sufficiently famous sluggish halfling around 7th or 8th level?

Schweet!

Sort of.

He runs around in a mithril shirt until he has finished upgrading that wannabe celestial armor he carries in his handy haversack.

Nod, nod. That's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh, ....

[james maissen]

Don Walker wrote:

As far as your example, you refer to weapon upgrades which is clearly explained in the Guide, the FAQ, and the Core Rulebook. My example refers to items, as in Wondrous Items.

Don, if you go to the place in the core rules that explains how you could further enchant your +1 longsword into a +2 vorpal longsword you will see another example there.

Namely:

core rules wrote:

The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.

If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection 2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.

Now PFS doesn't follow the core rules exactly. Moreover PFS changes its rules on these issues from time to time.

I think that this difference and the fact that it has changed is what is confusing you here.

-James

[Shfish]

Ok now with train is the final word that...
Buy a headband of vast int...then upgrade it to additionally give a +2 also to wis as long as I maintain the int? And later I upgrade it further to also give to my cha? But once I make it here I can only do further upgrades to take all 3 to a +4, correct?

Don Walker wrote:

At the risk of confusing you all even more ...

Mike Brock has posted on the super secret boards that Mark's clarification of the Wondrous item upgrade rule is correct. The upgraded item does not need to have the same name. It just needs to be a legal item and has to have (and maintain) the same effect as the original when you add a new effect. Please don't look for loopholes in these words. This is just the gist of it. Refer to Mark's clarification via the link in PAZ's first post in this thread, for correct wording.

It turns out my misunderstanding came from an example I posted a few months ago for clarification following the FAQ Final Wording for the Magic Item Upgrades. There was no correction to my example and so I assumed incorrectly that my example was correct.

I am sorry for any confusion and hope this makes everything crystal clear.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Shfish wrote:

Ok now with train is the final word that...

Buy a headband of vast int...then upgrade it to additionally give a +2 also to wis as long as I maintain the int? And later I upgrade it further to also give to my cha? But once I make it here I can only do further upgrades to take all 3 to a +4, correct?

Correct. Your upgrade has to match an already available magic item, not something that would have to be custom made.

[BigNorseWolf]

What skill is in a headband of vast intellect, or do you get to pick?

[Chris Mortika]

BigNorseWolf, if the headband is found as treasure, the associate skill ought to be part of the description of the item.

If you're using your current Fame score to justify the headband's purchase, you can choose the skill you like.