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Am I reading understanding this correctly?
If I cast shatter on the area where the alchemist is, I understand all the crystaline, glass, ceramic and the like gets destroyed, so I would most likely have the alchemist threat eliminated from the battle. He would have to rely on anything that is not bombs, extracts, mutagens or posions, which for the class should probably be a wand or scroll.
If this is true, an alchemist can almost effectively be disabled by a level 2 spell that the most common casters can do (bard, cleric, wizard & sorcerer) and being a bad guy you should either know the spell or have a wand for it in case the occasional adventuring party comes to your base to stop you from whatever evil is your birthright inflict to others or you are destined to do.
Last week's game a certain villain from AP2 killed three out of four in the party and two of my player's like the idea of alchemists, I wouldn't be suprised if I get to see one on the next session.
I'm up for ideas/questions/criticisms
Mutagens, extracts and bombs are magical. Shatter works on nonmagical brittle objects.
I know the content is magical. But the flasks aren't. They are pure glass like the ones in potions.
Alchemy's description says
Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances such as alchemist’s fire and smokesticks, but also of fashioning magical potionlike extracts in which they can store spell effects.
and under potions we see:
Physical Description: A typical potion or oil consists of 1 ounce of liquid held in a ceramic or glass vial fitted with a tight stopper. The stoppered container is usually no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high. The vial has Armor Class 13, 1 hit point, hardness 1, and a break DC of 12.
I suppose you could rules lawyer that the contents of a potion bottle are the only thing that is magical, but this seems like going out of your way to deliberatley screw a character. Be careful when doing that because all it will accomplish is that nobody plays Alchemists at your table and anytime you want to use one as DM they will use this tactic right back at you.
All gear on a character - as I understand it - counts as attended objects as well. At a minimum the alchemist/ person who lobs holy water / porter gets their saving throw to tell the shatter spell to sod off.
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"An alchemist can create three special types of magical items—extracts, bombs, and mutagens".
Since the Alchemist class doesn't specify the properties of containers for the above, you can assume that they are magical as well. And if somebody is really anal, you can just say that the Alchemist stores his special drinks in metal flasks and be done with it.
Also, see this discussion at Enworld
It is not auto-pwnage but real close.
Each item gets a will save.
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Will negates (object) or Fortitude half; see text; Spell Resistance yes
Since the items are being carried you can use the will save of the PC. A bunch of the vials will make their saves, but a lot will not. It is a good way to reduce his daily effectiviness.
Items in bags of holding, handy haversack, etc. would not be effected, which any good alchemist would carry backup vials in there.
It is not auto-pwnage but real close.
Each item gets a will save.
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Will negates (object) or Fortitude half; see text; Spell Resistance yesSince the items are being carried you can use the will save of the PC. A bunch of the vials will make their saves, but a lot will not. It is a good way to reduce his daily effectiviness.
Items in bags of holding, handy haversack, etc. would not be effected, which any good alchemist would carry backup vials in there.
You could rule it that way ... if you want to spend 15 minutes rolling dice for what a single die roll can do in a few seconds.
However, I view the alchemists' goodies the same as a spell component pouch - as long as the pouch is around, the alchemist gets to keep his goodies.
Although that does raise a good point - is there an equivalent item of gear for alchemists?
I suppose you could rules lawyer that the contents of a potion bottle are the only thing that is magical, but this seems like going out of your way to deliberatley screw a character. Be careful when doing that because all it will accomplish is that nobody plays Alchemists at your table and anytime you want to use one as DM they will use this tactic right back at you.
Sorry if it sounded like I wanted to use it, (I probably want to, but I won't) it's just that I was amazed at how easily it could be done.
I was thiking more in the line of creating a magic item to solve the problem, but first I wanted to see if what I understood was right. If I wasn't there was no reason to create the item.
Assuming I am understanding correctly the rules, I was thinking a scarab or amulet probably used by followers of Yuelral during travels to protect gems and such. A dwarven god not followed outside by non-dwarfs, hence the people don't normally know of the items existence, but alchemists and crafters seek the item because they know of its properties to protect crytals, at least from sound based effects like the ones the X,Y, and Z monsters have. Monsters which are often found in the traveling road to the X and Y trading posts of dwarves.
How does that sound? Mechanically it would protect items carried from sound based attacks similar to how a brooch of shield protects from magic missiles, I still need to see the craft/buy costs but it should be cheap.
"An alchemist can create three special types of magical items—extracts, bombs, and mutagens".
Since the Alchemist class doesn't specify the properties of containers for the above, you can assume that they are magical as well. And if somebody is really anal, you can just say that the Alchemist stores his special drinks in metal flasks and be done with it.
Also, see this discussion at Enworld
Thanks!
That is exactly the type of info I was looking for.
To summarize for those reading the thread, item does get saving throw, it is considered attended so it is the alchemist's saving throw.
Just for specific ruling.
Here is the rules extract
An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).
The spell says it shatters unattended items. Gear on a character is not considered to be unattended, so the shatter spell would not be able to be used in this manner.
And don't forget this. :)
However, that only applies to the multiple target aspect of shatter. You can use it to target a single object of any consistency - bows and other lighter-weight weapons at lower level, unenchanted body armor at higher levels, for example.
The spell says it shatters unattended items. Gear on a character is not considered to be unattended, so the shatter spell would not be able to be used in this manner.And don't forget this. :)
Ohh! yes, there is also that.
Guess I was wrong. Thanks all for clearing things up!
BTW, one could still use it as "target a single non-magical object" (I am asuming the flasks are mundane) but I think one would run out of spells or be killed before he disables the alchemist.
The spell says it shatters unattended items. Gear on a character is not considered to be unattended, so the shatter spell would not be able to be used in this manner.
Uhmmmm Here is the text from the PRD.
Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.
Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.
Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.
It does not mention it effect only unattended object. It states all in a 5' radius.
The spell says it shatters unattended items. Gear on a character is not considered to be unattended, so the shatter spell would not be able to be used in this manner.Uhmmmm Here is the text from the PRD.
Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.
Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.
Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.
It does not mention it effect only unattended object. It states all in a 5' radius.
It is in PRD, (just checked) it is not in the printed version though. It was errata-ed to add the "unattended" word.
According to the above, you can still target a single solid non-magical object within the weight limit - and that element of the spell says nothing at all about attended. So feel free to shatter armor, weapons, etc. Think of it as a cleric / bard ranged Sunder or something.
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Although that does raise a good point - is there an equivalent item of gear for alchemists?
Alchemist’s Kit: An alchemist with an alchemist’s kit
is assumed to have all the material components needed
for his extracts, mutagens, and bombs, except for those
components that have a specific cost. An alchemist’s kit
provides no bonuses on Craft (alchemy) checks.
Although that does raise a good point - is there an equivalent item of gear for alchemists?Alchemist’s Kit: An alchemist with an alchemist’s kit
is assumed to have all the material components needed
for his extracts, mutagens, and bombs, except for those
components that have a specific cost. An alchemist’s kit
provides no bonuses on Craft (alchemy) checks.
Awesome, thanks! I don't worry about that stuff until I make up an NPC (or PC) playing with such shiny new toys. :-)
It is in PRD, (just checked) it is not in the printed version though. It was errata-ed to add the "unattended" word.
Unattended items within the 5' burst... "All such unattended objects
within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozensof pieces by the spell".
You should still be able to target a single item held by an individual.
EDIT: And yes, it is in the 4th printing of the Core Rule Book.
It is in PRD, (just checked) it is not in the printed version though. It was errata-ed to add the "unattended" word.
Ok kewl... was looking at an older version of the PRD website, looks like it is time to rip another down so I can access it at work.
Thanks
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The Adventurer's Armory provides for metal potion bottles for just this reason. My Wizard PC brews all potions for storage in metal potion bottles.
Add that to the question of unattended objects and this is the result:
1 - any adventuring alchemist is going to be storing a day's infusion supply in small metal potion bottles, which are stored on a chest bandolier for ready access. such potion bottles are immune to the effects of shatter; and
2- even if they aren't in metal poton bottles, each potion gets a save.
IMO, a GM using shatter in this manner againsst a PC is not likely to win you any friends at the table.
Metal Potion bottles, cool so that means that "Heat Metal" might damage them right?
As for Shatter, well i am really sad that this spell was weakened just to perserve the Alchemest clsass. The spell in itself was a single class effect that could have effected all cryatal or glass vials. While this would make it good for newtralizing a alachemist who was unprepaired. A prepaired alachemist; with some metal, some bamboo, some ceramic, some glass, would not be at such a disadvantage to a single spell.
Just as Silence spell (also 2nd level) can shut down a spell caster who has this spell cast on him. If he has not prepaired spell feats, magic items, etc as backup to prevent this lose of power.
PS = If i am an alchemist, i would much perfer to roll for ever single items ( vs lump some ) as odds are that some would survive on single rolls :)
Metal Potion bottles, cool so that means that "Heat Metal" might damage them right?
As for Shatter, well i am really sad that this spell was weakened just to preserve the Alchemist class. The spell in itself was a single class effect that could have effected all crystal or glass vials. While this would make it good for neutralizing a alchemist who was unprepared. A prepared alchemist; with some metal, some bamboo, some ceramic, some glass, would not be at such a disadvantage to a single spell.
Just as Silence spell (also 2nd level) can shut down a spell caster who has this spell cast on him. If he has not prepared spell feats, magic items, etc as backup to prevent this lose of power.
PS = If i am an alchemist, i would much prefer to roll for ever single items ( vs lump some ) as odds are that some would survive on single rolls :)
It was not weakened IMO - it has the same writing posted above in my 1st printing hard-copy of the CRB.
Also, silence - unlike shatter - is a non-discriminatory spell. Shatter lets you target the alchemists' kit - failed save, no more kablooies, same as when you target other casters' spell component pouches.
Smart characters - especially by 3rd level - I've often seen carrying two such pouches/kits just because of that potential use of shatter.
After all, the kit/pouch (and its contents) are non-magical. As a single-target use of shatter, there is no specific restriction on material composition. And it gives bards, clerics, oracles and whomever else has access to it a decent offensive spell.
It was not weakened IMO - it has the same writing posted above in my 1st printing hard-copy of the CRB.
Also, silence - unlike shatter - is a non-discriminatory spell. Shatter lets you target the alchemists' kit - failed save, no more kablooies, same as when you target other casters' spell component pouches.
Smart characters - especially by 3rd level - I've often seen carrying two such pouches/kits just because of that potential use of shatter.
After all, the kit/pouch (and its contents) are non-magical. As a single-target use of shatter, there is no specific restriction on material composition. And it gives bards, clerics, oracles and whomever else has access to it a decent offensive spell.
... or you can just do what I do and cast magic aura on the bag, which makes it magical.
There are several similiar spells that could be used (continual light, hardened, obscure object).
It was not weakened IMO - it has the same writing posted above in my 1st printing hard-copy of the CRB.
Also, silence - unlike shatter - is a non-discriminatory spell. Shatter lets you target the alchemists' kit - failed save, no more kablooies, same as when you target other casters' spell component pouches.
Smart characters - especially by 3rd level - I've often seen carrying two such pouches/kits just because of that potential use of shatter.
After all, the kit/pouch (and its contents) are non-magical. As a single-target use of shatter, there is no specific restriction on material composition. And it gives bards, clerics, oracles and whomever else has access to it a decent offensive spell.
... or you can just do what I do and cast magic aura on the bag, which makes it magical.
There are several similiar spells that could be used (continual light, hardened, obscure object).
Nice!! :)
The decoy value alone can be valuable too ... " hey, Bob, whyzzat bag glowing? ... "
Okay, you've got a couple problems going on here.
One is the old problem of The wizard gets hit with a fireball and doesn't save and loses his spellbooks and/or spell component pouch. You've now made the character utterly useless unless he somehow gets replacements, and this is usually going to involve GM fiats ranging from kindly mentors as deus ex machina to overly convenient access to wishes to bad plotting where wizards with fully stocked spell component pouches and/or just the right spellbooks drop dead at the character's feet.
Most GMs of my acquaintance, myself included, realize this plotline gets old really fast, and save for the "strip 'em naked and throw them in a dungeon" plotlines (where the spellbook and component pouch can be recovered as part of the prison break), the easiest way to deal with this is to have the component pouch and spellbooks miraculously saved from any horrible outcome. When the wizard was incinerated by a fireball, he was curled protectively around his books and component pouch, and apart from some dramatic singing, they're fine, and so is he once he's resurrected.
The alchemist's formulary? Same deal. And all of his potions and extracts are the same sort of thing.
Yes, you can have a Shatter spell break some bottles, but realistically, it shouldn't get all of them, or even most, since alchemists are packrats and will probably use any and all of the following:
Glass, Ceramic and Stone Bottles --> destroyed by Shatter
Metal Bottles --> messed with by Heat Metal, Transmute Metal to Wood, and Rust Monsters
Wooden Bottles (particularly sections of bamboo, as would be popular in Tian) --> leak when Warp Wood is applied. Ditto hypothetical "termite swarm" spell
Gourds --> should be good against Warp Wood, but not "termite swarm" so much
Bone and Ivory Bottles --> depends on interpretation versus Shatter, but should likely be safe
Waxed Leather Bottles and Wineskins --> no particular downside apart from aesthetics
Ancient Azlantian Alchemical Ivory made by a lost process known only to the Aboleths (who termed this substance "bakelite") --> amazing stuff, but aboleths don't get to make anything anymore
Clear Alchemical Resin from the Plateau of Leng (termed "plastic") --> the secret of its manufacture is unknown, but it is as light as mithral, clear as glass, and utterly shatterproof!
If you want to have shatter mess up the alchemist a bit, let it pop a few vials, but realize he's going to have a whole lot more of different substances on his person not specifically because he's optimizing against this problem so much as alchemists run through bottles pretty quickly so would continually be rummaging through the recycling bins of the world finding any usable item.
Hell, waxed paper would work. You want a bomb made out of an old milk carton? Go ahead.
Realize, also, that most alchemists are going to have more than half of their alchemical ingredients in the form of powders which they add to water or wine or whatever liquid is handy. Their magic lets them turn a banana milkshake into a molotov cocktail if that's all they've got to work with. The more you try to go out of your way to hose them, the more they simply MacGyver new solutions which may look silly but still get the job done.
Kevin,
The idea is generally not to spend the time as a GM to tac-nuke the casters' pouches/kits/wind-catchers-hanging-from-a-belt each and every time in all the encounters. I completely agree. I don't think any one is saying that they should. Once in a now-and-then, just like Sundering, Disarming and all the other combat maneuvers.
I believe that the intent of the OP was more along the lines of " Oh, whew, my poor Alchemist is not totally hosed by one cleric BBEG of 3rd+ level with nothing better to do than pop my alchemists' kit, " with the thread. Am I right ?
I do like the idea of a Banannas-Foster-Cocktail though ... burning never smelled so good .... mmmmmmmm .... 'nanners....
Kevin,
The idea is generally not to spend the time as a GM to tac-nuke the casters' pouches/kits/wind-catchers-hanging-from-a-belt each and every time in all the encounters. I completely agree. I don't think any one is saying that they should. Once in a now-and-then, just like Sundering, Disarming and all the other combat maneuvers.
I believe that the intent of the OP was more along the lines of " Oh, whew, my poor Alchemist is not totally hosed by one cleric BBEG of 3rd+ level with nothing better to do than pop my alchemists' kit, " with the thread. Am I right ?
I do like the idea of a Banannas-Foster-Cocktail though ... burning never smelled so good .... mmmmmmmm .... 'nanners....
"AAAAAHHHHHH! IT BURNS LIKE KEY LIME!"
-- Balor just hit with a creme pie based madness force bomb.
What about a wizard casting arcane mark on the bottles all though it would take a while. A wizard could mark 90 items if he spends every minute of his day marking vials.
If it was a tiefling alchemist with the tiefling bastard trait from council of thieves players guide he could take arcane mark as his one cantrip from that feat instead of darkness.
Also doesn't shatter need line of effect? If so then those vials would not be shattered.
What about a wizard casting arcane mark on the bottles all though it would take a while. A wizard could mark 90 items
Fifteen hours times sixty minutes an hour times ten rounds a minute times one standard action a round is actually 9,000 castings, not 90. But arcane mark doesn't say the item counts as magical when marked.
Wow the thread really grew.
Ok, just to chek in, our game was last night and it went really good.
None of the players got an alchemist, they decided on a witch and an inquisitor but since a player on the table is going to be missing for a while they ended up with two npcs of their choice which where exact copies of Valeros and Damiel both found on different bars.
So an alchemist was played after all.
Here's a quick recap.
Long story short, the team pulled it off but ended with both Valeros and Damiel splattered on the ground and the new witch almost had the same fate.
The alchemist's short life was particulary useful since I decided that as 3rd level extract he had fly (since the wizard on the party did not know it) and prepared a potion for each party member and that led to an awesome aerial fight, he also managed to hit Xanesha twice before falling to death unconcious.
Kevin,
The idea is generally not to spend the time as a GM to tac-nuke the casters' pouches/kits/wind-catchers-hanging-from-a-belt each and every time in all the encounters. I completely agree. I don't think any one is saying that they should. Once in a now-and-then, just like Sundering, Disarming and all the other combat maneuvers.
I believe that the intent of the OP was more along the lines of " Oh, whew, my poor Alchemist is not totally hosed by one cleric BBEG of 3rd+ level with nothing better to do than pop my alchemists' kit, " with the thread. Am I right ?
I do like the idea of a Banannas-Foster-Cocktail though ... burning never smelled so good .... mmmmmmmm .... 'nanners....
"AAAAAHHHHHH! IT BURNS LIKE KEY LIME!"
-- Balor just hit with a creme pie based madness force bomb.
oooo, that would suck ... getting hit in the face with acidic key lime pie spritzed with whipped cream .... ^_^
You know, this just screams to have a villain using that theme ...
"AAAAAHHHHHH! IT BURNS LIKE KEY LIME!"
-- Balor just hit with a creme pie based madness force bomb.oooo, that would suck ... getting hit in the face with acidic key lime pie spritzed with whipped cream .... ^_^
You know, this just screams to have a villain using that theme ...
I blame the food network really -- I got about an entire party based on food wielding chefs and what not now.
oooo, that would suck ... getting hit in the face with acidic key lime pie spritzed with whipped cream .... ^_^
You know, this just screams to have a villain using that theme ...
A Court Jester who is the real power behind the throne, having dominated the current Regent...
Of course, one cannot forget that those who die from his pies bear the scar of a maniacal smile. :oP
Same could be done to a wizard by sundering his spell component pouch or sundering a warrior's weapon...
I blame the food network really -- I got about an entire party based on food wielding chefs and what not now."AAAAAHHHHHH! IT BURNS LIKE KEY LIME!"
-- Balor just hit with a creme pie based madness force bomb.oooo, that would suck ... getting hit in the face with acidic key lime pie spritzed with whipped cream .... ^_^
You know, this just screams to have a villain using that theme ...
Same could be done to a wizard by sundering his spell component pouch or sundering a warrior's weapon...
Where is the eschew materials feat for alchemists? Warriors almost always have at least a backup weapon, and what is the backup for alchemists?
Gotta watch out for those acidic key lime pies.I blame the food network really -- I got about an entire party based on food wielding chefs and what not now."AAAAAHHHHHH! IT BURNS LIKE KEY LIME!"
-- Balor just hit with a creme pie based madness force bomb.oooo, that would suck ... getting hit in the face with acidic key lime pie spritzed with whipped cream .... ^_^
You know, this just screams to have a villain using that theme ...
Loved that movie! Might have to dig it out of my DVD cabinet again...
Because the PC's save is a defence, this is no more a "killer" than the spell silence.
Something to remember..
"Does the oracles Haunted curse (Advanced Player's Guide, page 44) affect the items in an oracle's spell component pouch?
The question here is whether or not the haunted curse makes is so that to cast any spell using a material component, the oracle has to first spend a standard action to find the right material component. Fortunately for oracles everywhere, this is not the case. The items in a spell component pouch are nebulous and not defined (intentionally, so as to prevent casters from having to track the amount of bat guano they are carrying). As a result, this curse has no effect on such components. For ease of play, this extends to all material components, including expensive ones.
—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10 "
In otherwords, applying the logic of SCP is nebulous and not defined.. The alchemist kit is also not defined either. So even if you specifically target the alchemist kit, it doesn't stop him from still continuing to use it.
